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Loial and the Ogier


PrncRny
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If this has already been discussed, someone point me in the direction of the topic, cause I missed it.

 

Anyway, we haven't seen or heard from Loyal Loial since the end of TGS when he was discussing the Book of Translation with those other Ogier (been a couple of months. details might be off.)

 

Where is he? I remember getting the distinct impression he was going to try to talk the Ogier into fighting alongside everyone instead of running away into the other world teh Book would take them to.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I was betting that we would get to see him on the stump (his actual speech / arguments) in the Prologue. I still hope so.

 

There's been speculation about possible darkfriend ogier. Loial's mother Covril is central to that speculation.

 

Honestly, I don't know one way or the other, but darkfriends probably would want to see the Book of Translation opened. One less enemy to face the Dark at the Last Battle. Maybe the dispute sows chaos as well?

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  • 2 weeks later...

actually that may be something

 

we havent seen any ogier ghosts until the debates for opening the books really started up, maybe the division between the ogier because of the books are causing weakening of their part of the world...

Interestingly enough, the Ogier ghosts couldn't enter the stedding. Makes me wonder exactly what is up with the nature of the Ogier.

 

EDIT: I have a feeling it would kill an Ogier if he turned Darkfriend, giving the conflicting nature of the Longing and the natural repulsion Shadowspawn and other things of the Dark have toward entering stedding.

Edited by Random Man
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I thought that I saw somewhere where RJ confirmed that Ogier are not like humans, that they love their groves and trees and cannot be darkfriends in the sense that the question was posed to him. Or maybe that was a very Aes Sedai answer from RJ. The Ogier allow anyone to enter their steadding as long as they leave their weapons outside and abide the peace of the stedding. I'd like to see the background or history of the Ogier and their origins. We have Aelfinn and EelFinn from other planets, we have Grolm and Raken from other dimensions or "reflection" worlds. The Ogier are contemplating returning to where they came from with their Book of Translations. I've always associate them with Elven qualities despite their size for their magic of treesinging and respect for the forests and the great trees. RJ was quite taken with Tolkien despite him not buying Gandalf tapping Frodo as the savior and off we go, he's stated as much. As the Elves did, the Ogier must leave, but will they fight before they go?

 

Back on topic, can you link in some of those discussions? I remember the arguments and people throwing up RJ quotes and Q&A with him where he stated the answer, maybe I'm mistaken.

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I thought that I saw somewhere where RJ confirmed that Ogier are not like humans, that they love their groves and trees and cannot be darkfriends in the sense that the question was posed to him. Or maybe that was a very Aes Sedai answer from RJ. The Ogier allow anyone to enter their steadding as long as they leave their weapons outside and abide the peace of the stedding. I'd like to see the background or history of the Ogier and their origins. We have Aelfinn and EelFinn from other planets, we have Grolm and Raken from other dimensions or "reflection" worlds. The Ogier are contemplating returning to where they came from with their Book of Translations. I've always associate them with Elven qualities despite their size for their magic of treesinging and respect for the forests and the great trees. RJ was quite taken with Tolkien despite him not buying Gandalf tapping Frodo as the savior and off we go, he's stated as much. As the Elves did, the Ogier must leave, but will they fight before they go?

 

Back on topic, can you link in some of those discussions? I remember the arguments and people throwing up RJ quotes and Q&A with him where he stated the answer, maybe I'm mistaken.

 

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Why can't Ogier channel the One Power?

RJ: Why can't fish sing? Why can't sparrows do the tango? Why can't I figure my own income tax? I'd really like to know the answer to that last one!

Q: Can they be Darkfriends?

RJ: Of course.

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Before reading this thread I was of the Mind that Ogier could not be darkfriends. Yet When you wiegh in the Ogier from across the Sea then I think that it could in fact be very possible. I don;t think that a Darkfroend Ogier would be comfortable living inside a stedding so the possiblility of Randland Ogier being a DF is very slim but for the ones War like seanchan ones who would "Prune a few limbs" and lack the nessisity of the Stedding then I think its is almost a certainty.

 

This makes me think of more questions. Suppose the Book of translation was opened. DO the Ogier suddenly just dissappear and fade out of the world or do you think that A gateway of some sort is opened and they have to physically enter? If they have to physically enter then this leaves the Ogier with a choice wether or not to leave rand land for their homeworld. How would the other Ogier know the book was opened? Would they have to have a mass gathering and exit together? How ould this impact the seanchan Ogier? WOuld they feel some thing akin to a taveren pull and be almost compelled to search out the other randland Ogier? I know this is a little off topic but its something to think about.

Edited by dmanmiller34
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It raises lots of questions that require some interesting thought. There are vast differences between the Seanchan Ogier Gardeners and Randland Ogier. We've seen and learned so little of the Seanchan Ogier. Do they have stedding and treesingers, maybe the treesingers are strong and groves survive in Seanchan. Lots of cool things to think on and hope to see.

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I'm slightly off topic here, but not miles so I'll barrel on. This might sound a bit nuts...

 

Is it not possible Rand's new solution for the DO's prison involves the Ogier?

 

Rand (and quality-obsessed Perrin) believe the old seals cannot/should not be fixed and re-used. I would imagine both are inclined to think a whole new solution is better. I can't see where Callandor fits here, maybe one of you will. Anyhoo. Given Mierin drilled into the DO's prison back in the day, it seems reasonable to think of that hole as a gap or tear in the fabric of the prison, whatever that might be.

 

Now. Ogier grow stuff. They're very good at it. Treesinging might be less common than it was, but it's still there. Also, the Elders, according to Loial, still have the Talisman of Growing that (he suggested) might be used to someday heal the Ways. What if said Talisman is the solution to the hole? Like Nynaeve's description of healing Logain's stilling - something cut, a little bridge - perhaps there's something there?

 

I think the only way to address this particular possibility is to temporarily park all ideas of Rand freeing and destroying the DO so we can ignore that metaphysical pit.

 

ETA Good man Orderofolde, didn't think of that. Could be a whole choir of excellent Treesingers across that pond.

Edited by aunt_pol
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@dmanmiller34 - Robert Jordan very rarely wrote or said anything accidentally. If he said "of course" to that particular question, then you'd best believe that we will see Ogier Darkfriends soon. The stump is going to be the largest gathering of Ogier since the Trolloc Wars.

 

On a side note, many folks forming theories about Ogier Darkfriends believe Covril herself is one.

 

There is nothing about a stedding that would "forbid" a darkfriend.

 

@orderofolde - What little we do know about the Seanchan Ogier seems to indicate a massive schism. The Seanchan Ogier are warlike and appear to have lost Treesinging. However, many folks forming theories still believe they have a part to play, re-united and, yes, Treesinging with their brethren.

 

@aunt_pol - Most folks out there believe that Treesinging is going to be a part of the climax. The lost Song of Growing, it's believed, is the only way to rebuild the prison same as it was before the Bore.

 

That is one theory that to me appears certain. The singers are debated. Some talk about the Ogier, Aes Sedai, and Ash'a'man (and Rand). Others suggest Perrin, the Tu'ath'an, and others.

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@aunt_pol - Most folks out there believe that Treesinging is going to be a part of the climax. The lost Song of Growing, it's believed, is the only way to rebuild the prison same as it was before the Bore.

 

That is one theory that to me appears certain. The singers are debated. Some talk about the Ogier, Aes Sedai, and Ash'a'man (and Rand). Others suggest Perrin, the Tu'ath'an, and others.

 

 

Fair enough so, just never noticed it discussed here befoer, may keep my eyes open more!

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That odd little ter'angreal Elayne and co found in Ebou Dar (TPoD2) might be involved. According to Avi it is for growing something like holes and is activated by singing (KoD15), which makes it sound like the Talisman of Growing (TSR43).. but if it can grow Ways, it might be able to do other things.

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That odd little ter'angreal Elayne and co found in Ebou Dar (TPoD2) might be involved. According to Avi it is for growing something like holes and is activated by singing (KoD15), which makes it sound like the Talisman of Growing (TSR43).. but if it can grow Ways, it might be able to do other things.

 

Presumably only if it can be manipulated to fill holes as opposed to growing them. Maybe Rand will recognise it.

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