Elan Morin Tedronai or Mierin Eronaile?

[pamela]

How I see it.

 

Mierin doesn't and never did love LTT, her level of narcissism renders her incapable of it. She only loves herself and power. LTT was just something she couldn't have and it became her obsession, not love.

 

Elan on the other hand, has never been about power for himself, it's been about ending the cycle he has been in, more importantly that he seems to know he has been in since the beginning of time.

 

Elan turned to the shadow, not out of spite or power but out of logic. He simply wants it all to end, he wants a final rest so to speak.

I am convinced that if Rand shows him a way to end the cycle without the Dark One winning, he will take it.

 

tSG chapter 15 is a very good read into Elan's/Moridin's psyche and why he turned to the shadow imo.

 

I can't see how could Elan turn to the Light out of logic again, because he's actually right. Isn't it the integral nature of the Wheel that it turns endlessly and with each turning the DO wants to destroy it so that he can determine his own order? This specific cycle can only be stopped by the DO winning (unless one believes he can be utterly killed), while the Champion of the Light's task is to keep it going, thus each time defeating the DO, fighting for love, hope and joy (VoG), knowing that it will happen again. That's why he has to findhis internal equilibrium, the joy of life and admiration for it - to know it's worth fighting for over and over again. Therefore, he needs memories of beautiful things which give him strenght.

 

I think Rand won't show him any way to end the cycle without the Dark One winning because there's no such way. It's only: are you willing to sacrifice yourself for love etc or not? So, does Elan have anything to fight for with each turning of the Wheel, which could make him change sides? Maybe he has no good memories or just doesn't appreciate life. I agree with those saying that we have yet to see if he had any VoG-like experience. If he had - what did he see?

[Dollhouse]

Mierin doesn't and never did love LTT, her level of narcissism renders her incapable of it. She only loves herself and power. LTT was just something she couldn't have and it became her obsession, not love.

Ah, but that is raises the question -- what is love? (baby don't hurt, don't hurt no more)

 

Obsession itself can be said to be the strongest love since there is no such thing as an unselfish love. The more she loves herself the stronger her love for Lews would be -- I.E she would kill him... that is how much she loves him. I.E because she loves him she hates him ect.

 

For the record RJ NEVER said that Mierin didn't love Lews -- he said she was a woman that wanted power. It was Lews himself that claimed that Mierin never loved him.

 

Anyway if Mierin was to "return" to the light she would do so mainly out of selfserving reasons. I mean she IS human after all.

 

 

I can't see how could Elan turn to the Light out of logic again, because he's actually right. Isn't it the integral nature of the Wheel that it turns endlessly and with each turning the DO wants to destroy it so that he can determine his own order? This specific cycle can only be stopped by the DO winning

It really is a question of philosophy here. If everything keeps on repeating forever you might have the chance to change, but since it repeats itself you never will. On the other hand if everything is destroyed then there WILL be change and then you wont have any new chances to change.

 

So, does Elan have anything to fight for with each turning of the Wheel, which could make him change sides?

I believe that he does and THAT is why he wants it to end. For example he sees how Lews Therin loves and hates people -- now while Elan himself might not fall in love, he would be able to empathize with Lews and thus sort of live "through" Lews. So everyone Lews loved would be channeled through Elan?

[Entreri]

I wonder if the "Light" in Rand's mind is affecting Ishamael.

 

Moghdien on Ishamael: "He had been acting increasingly strange, lately." He has lost interesting torturing the women, which he would have delighted him in the past, according to Moghdien

"The punishments he had adminstered to her and Cyndane had seemed almost routine".

 

It would certainly be truly an epic twist if Shai'tan's champion turned to the Light.

[thisguy]

I wonder if the "Light" in Rand's mind is affecting Ishamael.

 

Moghdien on Ishamael: "He had been acting increasingly strange, lately." He has lost interesting torturing the women, which he would have delighted him in the past, according to Moghdien

"The punishments he had adminstered to her and Cyndane had seemed almost routine".

 

It would certainly be truly an epic twist if Shai'tan's champion turned to the Light.

 

Makes sense. After Rand loses his hand, Moridin's becomes stiff. They're connected by the balefire incident. It's very possible that part of Rand's descent into darkness had to do with his connection to Moridin. Now, that he's ascended and become Zen, Moridin may be seeing things in a new light.

 

While I think less and less there will be a body swap, there's definitely a connection of feeling - both physical and emotional.

 

Maybe, Moridin will turn to the Light side and Padan Fain can become Nae'blis.

[Sid]

and Padan Fain can become Nae'blis.

 

HAHAHAHA no.

[thisguy]

and Padan Fain can become Nae'blis.

 

HAHAHAHA no.

 

I'm trying to find a non-gollum ending for Fain. Help a brother out. The only other thing I can see is he and Shaidar Haran take each other out. He can't stop the DO (I hope not, that would be lame) but he might be able to take out his avatar.

[Neophyte]

Given Demandred's ultimatum regarding who gets to kill Rand, I could see an upcoming conflict between Fain and Demandred - and I think that could be a very interesting sequence. Alternatively, I'd enjoy seeing Fain gallivant through the Town in the Blight, a bit.

[thisguy]

Given Demandred's ultimatum regarding who gets to kill Rand, I could see an upcoming conflict between Fain and Demandred - and I think that could be a very interesting sequence. Alternatively, I'd enjoy seeing Fain gallivant through the Town in the Blight, a bit.

that's a good point - about Demandred. I think Demandred is Mat's problem, though. Fain is in the blight. I kinda see the blight characters being - Rand, Moridin, Fain, SH, Cyndane, Mogh, Nynaever, Moiraine, the Seanchan woman who is supposed to help Rand die (drawing a blank on name), probably Narishma.... and maybe Slayer, Perrin and Egwene. Just my guess....

[Neophyte]

Given Demandred's ultimatum regarding who gets to kill Rand, I could see an upcoming conflict between Fain and Demandred - and I think that could be a very interesting sequence. Alternatively, I'd enjoy seeing Fain gallivant through the Town in the Blight, a bit.

that's a good point - about Demandred. I think Demandred is Mat's problem, though. Fain is in the blight. I kinda see the blight characters being - Rand, Moridin, Fain, SH, Cyndane, Mogh, Nynaever, Moiraine, the Seanchan woman who is supposed to help Rand die (drawing a blank on name), probably Narishma.... and maybe Slayer, Perrin and Egwene. Just my guess....

 

Yes, that is all we can really do at this point - guess. But, just as a note - Demandred can Travel, so location isn't that big an obstacle for him. And, to be helpful, the "Seanchan woman who is supposed to help Rand die" is Alivia.

[thisguy]

Given Demandred's ultimatum regarding who gets to kill Rand, I could see an upcoming conflict between Fain and Demandred - and I think that could be a very interesting sequence. Alternatively, I'd enjoy seeing Fain gallivant through the Town in the Blight, a bit.

that's a good point - about Demandred. I think Demandred is Mat's problem, though. Fain is in the blight. I kinda see the blight characters being - Rand, Moridin, Fain, SH, Cyndane, Mogh, Nynaever, Moiraine, the Seanchan woman who is supposed to help Rand die (drawing a blank on name), probably Narishma.... and maybe Slayer, Perrin and Egwene. Just my guess....

 

Yes, that is all we can really do at this point - guess. But, just as a note - Demandred can Travel, so location isn't that big an obstacle for him. And, to be helpful, the "Seanchan woman who is supposed to help Rand die" is Alivia.

Thank you. Alita - I kept thinking Alita. It wouldn't come for me. Oh well....

 

No, absolutely. You're right about that - the traveling. Mat's the only main character without a real opposite. The closest in my mind is Daved Hanlon, but that would be a weak climax. I actually think Mat is going to help the Seanchan defeat Demandred's forces and D's going to be so pissed off, he's going to come after Mat himself. Again, just my guess. If I'm wrong, I'll buy you a root beer float. :D

[Neophyte]

Given Demandred's ultimatum regarding who gets to kill Rand, I could see an upcoming conflict between Fain and Demandred - and I think that could be a very interesting sequence. Alternatively, I'd enjoy seeing Fain gallivant through the Town in the Blight, a bit.

that's a good point - about Demandred. I think Demandred is Mat's problem, though. Fain is in the blight. I kinda see the blight characters being - Rand, Moridin, Fain, SH, Cyndane, Mogh, Nynaever, Moiraine, the Seanchan woman who is supposed to help Rand die (drawing a blank on name), probably Narishma.... and maybe Slayer, Perrin and Egwene. Just my guess....

 

Yes, that is all we can really do at this point - guess. But, just as a note - Demandred can Travel, so location isn't that big an obstacle for him. And, to be helpful, the "Seanchan woman who is supposed to help Rand die" is Alivia.

Thank you. Alita - I kept thinking Alita. It wouldn't come for me. Oh well....

 

No, absolutely. You're right about that - the traveling. Mat's the only main character without a real opposite. The closest in my mind is Daved Hanlon, but that would be a weak climax. I actually think Mat is going to help the Seanchan defeat Demandred's forces and D's going to be so pissed off, he's going to come after Mat himself. Again, just my guess. If I'm wrong, I'll buy you a root beer float. :D

 

Nice! Though it might go all flat and melty in the shipping ...

 

It would be interesting, in that scenario, to see how Mat's luck saves him from Demandred. Maybe that's what finally drives Fortuona to channel?

 

(I just love throwing that kind of scenario out there to see what happens)

 

Incidentally (to try to keep this from getting too sidetracked) I also think the "Demandred betrays the DO because he figured out the Shadow's real plan and doesn't like it" scenario is far more likely than either Moridin or Cyndane returning to the Light for whatever reason.

[thisguy]

Given Demandred's ultimatum regarding who gets to kill Rand, I could see an upcoming conflict between Fain and Demandred - and I think that could be a very interesting sequence. Alternatively, I'd enjoy seeing Fain gallivant through the Town in the Blight, a bit.

that's a good point - about Demandred. I think Demandred is Mat's problem, though. Fain is in the blight. I kinda see the blight characters being - Rand, Moridin, Fain, SH, Cyndane, Mogh, Nynaever, Moiraine, the Seanchan woman who is supposed to help Rand die (drawing a blank on name), probably Narishma.... and maybe Slayer, Perrin and Egwene. Just my guess....

 

Yes, that is all we can really do at this point - guess. But, just as a note - Demandred can Travel, so location isn't that big an obstacle for him. And, to be helpful, the "Seanchan woman who is supposed to help Rand die" is Alivia.

Thank you. Alita - I kept thinking Alita. It wouldn't come for me. Oh well....

 

No, absolutely. You're right about that - the traveling. Mat's the only main character without a real opposite. The closest in my mind is Daved Hanlon, but that would be a weak climax. I actually think Mat is going to help the Seanchan defeat Demandred's forces and D's going to be so pissed off, he's going to come after Mat himself. Again, just my guess. If I'm wrong, I'll buy you a root beer float. :D

 

Nice! Though it might go all flat and melty in the shipping ...

 

It would be interesting, in that scenario, to see how Mat's luck saves him from Demandred. Maybe that's what finally drives Fortuona to channel?

 

(I just love throwing that kind of scenario out there to see what happens)

 

Incidentally (to try to keep this from getting too sidetracked) I also think the "Demandred betrays the DO because he figured out the Shadow's real plan and doesn't like it" scenario is far more likely than either Moridin or Cyndane returning to the Light for whatever reason.

That's good, too! Both the Tuon and Demandred thing. The Tuon, especially. Demandred........... hmmmmm...... even if he gave the finger to the DO, I can't see him not wanting to kill Rand and Co. Hahahahahaa!!!! You've got to admire someone who sticks to his guns like that.

[Suttree]

For the record RJ NEVER said that Mierin didn't love Lews -- he said she was a woman that wanted power. It was Lews himself that claimed that Mierin never loved him.

 

RJ may have never said Lanfear didn't love LTT, it was said however that she loved the association and path to power more than she loved the man himself. Further RJ did state that she wouldn't do anyting good for Rand's sake. That is not love.

[Ananta]

I don't really consider Moridin evil. He does the logical thing, what he feels is best for the existence. In a sense, you could say he's a good guy.

 

 

And this contributes in no way to this thread.

[thisguy]

I don't really consider Moridin evil. He does the logical thing, what he feels is best for the existence. In a sense, you could say he's a good guy.

 

 

And this contributes in no way to this thread.

I don't know if he's a good guy - he's a total nihilst (which doesn't make him bad, necessarily). But, he likes to torture women and kill people, etc.

[Ananta]

I don't really consider Moridin evil. He does the logical thing, what he feels is best for the existence. In a sense, you could say he's a good guy.

 

 

And this contributes in no way to this thread.

I don't know if he's a good guy - he's a total nihilst (which doesn't make him bad, necessarily). But, he likes to torture women and kill people, etc.

I wonder if he actually takes any joy in it... Though if he does, it sort of does make him a sadist and evil person.

 

 

Before he became Moridin, he was definitely evil. But now that he's evolved as a character... Not so sure.

 

EDIT: I'm not saying that torturing and not having fun while at it is "the right thing to do" or in any way make him a good guy... I'm just saying he doesn't really consider it wrong either. It's the thing he has to do to keep the folk in line. "End justifies the means" kind of thinking.

[MarkDiLillo]

Just because there was one conversation where Moridin used logic to explain his reasoning for joining the Shadow doesn't mean the guy is not evil. He is essentially the most evil and horrible person to live in the last 3,000 years if you examine his actions.

[thisguy]

I don't really consider Moridin evil. He does the logical thing, what he feels is best for the existence. In a sense, you could say he's a good guy.

 

 

And this contributes in no way to this thread.

I don't know if he's a good guy - he's a total nihilst (which doesn't make him bad, necessarily). But, he likes to torture women and kill people, etc.

I wonder if he actually takes any joy in it... Though if he does, it sort of does make him a sadist and evil person.

 

 

Before he became Moridin, he was definitely evil. But now that he's evolved as a character... Not so sure.

Personally, I think he does. He likes to be the leader and in control. The other Chosen mention this at times from their POV in Forsaken scenes.

 

Think about this - before Rand kills Sammael in Shadar Logoth he meets up with Ish - who he doesn't recognize in his new body - they both destroy some Mashadar with their balefire. They cross the streams and somehow become connected. Now, the first time we really see Rand enjoying his power - it's spelled out for us - is after he returns to Illian and is crowned king. I believe Bashere hails him as King of the World. Rand thinks, "I like the sound of that" or something along those lines. We've never seen Rand say/think anything like this before. AND, it's after he's connected with Moridin.

[PaulChauvet]

I wonder how much of his sadism is linked to his overuse of the True Power? He joined the DO because of his view of the logical argument but after he did so, the TP might have made him 'evil', rather than just fatalistic.

 

His connection to Zen Rand might be counteracting that...

 

Many have suspected that the DO can't win with just any circumstances, that he may need the 'champion' of the light to turn or do something. What if for a lasting victory (whether that means permanently or for this cycle of ages) the true victory of the light requires the 'champion' of the dark to turn?

[MarkDiLillo]

I think the catch at the end is going to be that there is no true victory either way. The light and dark are just forces of nature working opposite to one another like saidin and saidar. Something is askew and the DO was released into the pattern to correct the world. As a result, the Dragon was released to balance things out. When the pattern is corrected they will both vanish again and everyone will go back to normal.

 

Rand's assumption that he can kill the DO is as false as Moridin's assumption that the DO will destroy everything.

[Sid]

and Padan Fain can become Nae'blis.

 

HAHAHAHA no.

 

I'm trying to find a non-gollum ending for Fain. Help a brother out. The only other thing I can see is he and Shaidar Haran take each other out. He can't stop the DO (I hope not, that would be lame) but he might be able to take out his avatar.

Sorry, my reaction was only to the section I quoted. The idea of Padan Fain becoming Nae'blis is preposterous.

 

As to what his role will be, perhaps he will cause havoc in the town, perhaps he kills an important figure among the forces of the dark. Perhaps he almost kills Rand before Moridin et. al. want him dead and Alivia/Moiraine balefire Rand, screwing up the DO's plan that way. He's almost assuredly going to screw over the DO somehow, either directly or indirectly, even if it isn't exactly like gollum's role in LotR.

[TheAngryDruid]

Well, Brandon's recent quotes as to what aMoL is about seem to cast doubt on my version/theory of what aMoL could be referring to. To put it mildly.

 

Still, I don't think they necessarily prohibit a major DF switch. Fain is an interesting choice.

[Dollhouse]

The "Seanchan woman who is supposed to help Rand die" is Alivia.

Alive Yah!

 

RJ may have never said Lanfear didn't love LTT, it was said however that she loved the association and path to power more than she loved the man himself.

quote please? I don't remember it expressed in those exact words...

 

Further RJ did state that she wouldn't do anyting good for Rand's sake. That is not love.

I need a quote on this too.

 

Even so I don't agree with you. Love is selfish, and I was defending the idea of her being in love with Lews, not loving Lews.

 

Something is askew and the DO was released into the pattern to correct the world. As a result, the Dragon was released to balance things out.

To protect the many the few are made to suffer. It is an nonredeemable evil created by the 'good'. Think about it. Semirhage was inflicting some pain on people and while this by itself can be construed as evil, she SAVED those people. It was her payment for saving people nobody else could heal.

 

Her punishment for this (for saving people lol) was that not only was she to be brainwashed and taken away her free will to do these 'bad things', half her life was to be taken away from her!

 

Semirhage is the only example we really know of, but it is a very telling one. There was no real "free will" in the age of legends. Sure there was no real problems but that was because all dissenters were rooted out in a very facist way.