Logain as Taveren?

[Orderofolde]

Something curious that I came across during my reread is that when Moiraine and company arrive in Caemlyn and meet Loial, the three tales of the DO blinding the Eye of the World come to light. The last telling is of the dream that Rand, Matt, and Perrin shared. Perrin offers one of the many names that Ishy as Ba'alzamon offered to them as men that the Aes Sedai used (False Dragons) Darksbane, Amalason, all of them are named except Rand keeps Logain's name from being said aloud. The question is asked as to what/who those men were after the names come out, and Loial says, "They are all Taveren" which Moiraine takes to mean Rand, Matt, and Perrin. Was that not in fact an answer to the question that had been voiced, that Moiraine dodged answering? If all those named were Taveren on the list Rand withheld Logain's name from being spoken aloud as Matt and Perrin don't recall the full list but he does, then is Logain not Taveren? This would tie in real well with my earlier thoughts that Moiraine and Lan earlier in TEoTW name and speak of Logain as if they both know him Rand thinks as they rode forth from the Two Rivers.

 

We already see that Logain has begun a war in Ghealdan when Fain arrives and spreads the news in the Two Rivers. The White Tower sends off sisters to capture him as he can, "do things" (channel). At the end of ToM we still don't know what has happened to Logain, and we've not seen Min's viewing of his Glory (the golden crown above his head she sees when he has been stilled and is moping about the tower grounds)

 

We are all comfortable with the knowledge that Rand, Matt, and Perrin are Taveren, and that all the false Dragons that were named in the dream the boys shared were false Dragons and may or may not have had strings pulled by Aes Sedai. Personally I think it is more than possible on both sides of the coin; the tower controls events all across the lands and makes kings and queens bend knee, and then there's the Black Ajah working to their own ends. We even know that Suian can see Taveren, a rare Talent. What's not to say that the BA have one of their own that can pick out Taveren, even minor ones that they can use to bend the Pattern to their will. I believe also it is mentioned that all those named on that list were channelers. Even Thom says to the boys when they confide inhim that those were all dangerous names, not to be shared where others could overhear.

 

There are a lot of things buried in the books that will later come to light, I think that this is one. That Moiraine and Lan knew Logain, and that Logain himself is Taveren. What better way to get the three lads to thinking that there was no hope by seeding lies with enough truth to cause doubt? I think that this is even eluded to in the discussion in the library where Moiraine and Company meet Loial and Moiraine mentions that the Dark One is also called the "Father of Lies" for good reason. What do you guys think?

[Xcorpyo001]

Siuan(and another AS) can see Taveren. And she saw the guy before he was gentled, while they both where severed, after they both were healed by Nynaeve.

She never saw him shiny, and she saw the rest(Rand, Mat, Perrin), so you can't put the 'blindness' on his taveren nature.

[spoke]

Hilarious Theory. Wonderfully taken out of context and twisted.

[Orderofolde]

Hilarious Theory. Wonderfully taken out of context and twisted.

Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed.

 

Rand actually has two instances where he hears Lan and Moiraine mention Logain and thinks the name is spoken of with a familiarity as if they know him personally.

 

Then the discussion happens in the Queen's Blessing in the Library.

 

I'm imposing a 2 brain cell minimum on further responses.

[Finnssss22]

Aiel Blademaster already summed it up.

Siuan would of noticed, either before she was removed from her seat or after she was healed.

She saw Logain before he was gentled and after while she was still the Amyrlin Seat.

Hell, Min even tells her of a viewing she has from him.

[Orderofolde]

Aiel Blademaster already summed it up.

Siuan would of noticed, either before she was removed from her seat or after she was healed.

She saw Logain before he was gentled and after while she was still the Amyrlin Seat.

Hell, Min even tells her of a viewing she has from him.

There's the whole Ying-Yang though. Moraine wonders if Rand is the one that bends the pattern to his will, or if he is the one that is bent by the pattern. Maybe Siuan can only see one side of the two types like men can only access Saidin and women saidar. They also "glow" at different intensities we learn later on after Siuan sees Rand in Fal Dara.

 

And the viewing? Has absolutely nothing to do with seeing Taveren. That's when she mentions that Logain has some moment of awesomeness yet to come. You got to remember, TEoTW was RJ's first book of the series. Some things shift and change from there on, but there's lots of indicators to future plots. He knew the ending already when he wrote it.

[Orderofolde]

On another interesting note, Far Madding seems to play a part in three of the false dragons that could channel. Darksbane was the most powerful of the false Dragons, and was born in Far Madding when it was Aren Mador. Yurian Stonebow was born in Far Madding when it was Fel Moreina. Amalason's greatest conquest in the Second War of the Dragon was taking Far Madding in only three weeks. Next to nothing is known of Davian or the many others except that they couldn't channel.

 

Of those we know that can see Taveren besides Siuan, is Logain himself, and a mention of Nicola

[Finnssss22]

Aiel Blademaster already summed it up.

Siuan would of noticed, either before she was removed from her seat or after she was healed.

She saw Logain before he was gentled and after while she was still the Amyrlin Seat.

Hell, Min even tells her of a viewing she has from him.

There's the whole Ying-Yang though. Moraine wonders if Rand is the one that bends the pattern to his will, or if he is the one that is bent by the pattern. Maybe Siuan can only see one side of the two types like men can only access Saidin and women saidar. They also "glow" at different intensities we learn later on after Siuan sees Rand in Fal Dara.

 

You'll have to explain this further, I actually have no idea what you're trying to say.

She saw the glow around all three boys, just Rand was by far the brightest.

Then there's Nicola, who also has the talent for seeing ta'veren after identifying that Mat is, who would of also seen Logain quite often in the camp. If she had of seen a glow, she would of pointed it out for sure.

 

And the viewing? Has absolutely nothing to do with seeing Taveren. That's when she mentions that Logain has some moment of awesomeness yet to come. You got to remember, TEoTW was RJ's first book of the series. Some things shift and change from there on, but there's lots of indicators to future plots. He knew the ending already when he wrote it.

 

The point was to show that Siuan saw Logain, both before and after he was gentled. I guarantee you if she had of seen a ta'veren glow around him after he was gentled, it would of been mentioned.

[yoniy0]

Play nice, everyone.

 

Oh, and I don't believe the books support the hypothesis that there are two different types of ta'veren. Mind explaining how you reached that conclusion, Orderofolde?

[MasterAblar]

It would be incredibly annoying for Logain if he was. Afterall he can see the taveren glow as he has the Talent. Imagine seeing yourself glow all the time.

[Goldstar]

Just saying, isn't the ability to see Ta'Veren a Talent? After she was severed, she would've lost that, would she not have?

[Rose]

It would be incredibly annoying for Logain if he was. Afterall he can see the taveren glow as he has the Talent. Imagine seeing yourself glow all the time.

My thoughts exactly, and the main reason it doesn't seem likely to me at all. Why give him the Talent to see Ta'veren if he is also one? It doesn't seem logical, story-telling/character-building wise. Plus the fact that Siuan would have noticed, but other people said that already.

[Finnssss22]

Just saying, isn't the ability to see Ta'Veren a Talent? After she was severed, she would've lost that, would she not have?

 

While she was severed, yes.

Before she was severed, when Logain was brought to her before he was gentled and then walking around the White Tower while she was still the AS, obviously not.

And after she was healed, while Logain was still in the camp.

We know that her talent came back with her healing from her PoV in ToM when Rand came to the White Tower.

[Leyrann]

Maybe Logain wasn't ta'veren ANYMORE when Siuan saw him in the WT...

 

Because we DO know that you don't stay ta'veren your whole life. So if he wasn't ta'veren anymore after his capturing, then Siuan wouldn't have seen the glow...

[Kaznen]

I think knowing who Logain is while not remembering who False dragons that died over 2000 years ago were is like saying, today, bin Laden was ta'veren because everyone in the world knows who he is but no one reconizes the names Temujin or Flavius Odoacer.

[Kahsm]

Just saying, isn't the ability to see Ta'Veren a Talent? After she was severed, she would've lost that, would she not have?

 

While she was severed, yes.

Before she was severed, when Logain was brought to her before he was gentled and then walking around the White Tower while she was still the AS, obviously not.

And after she was healed, while Logain was still in the camp.

We know that her talent came back with her healing from her PoV in ToM when Rand came to the White Tower.

 

Do we know that for sure? Lots of people have talents who cannot channel. Some Ogier can see ta'veren, and Siuan could still partially use an a'dam while stilled, so nothing was totally uprooted from her soul.

 

Also, I think the OP took Moir's explanation of ta'veren, where she says they bend the pattern, but are sometimes are bent by the pattern, to mean there are two types. But we've seen both happen to all 3 of our heroes, so there is only one type with two possible effects.

[Master of Germs]

RJ stated that ta'veren proprety is not lifelong but is for a limited time period. It is plausible, although quite impropable that the same person be ta'veren twice in his life. So, Logain might have been ta'veren in the past (finishing with his capturing by the AS) and could be again during or after the LB. Yet, the odds for this are as if you win a lottery which is held once in a thousand years (and I don't believe other than Mat could hit such a jackpot). So, there is nothing to prove Logain ta'verenness.

And, by the way, the quote by Loial is "They are all ta'veren!". Not "were", but ARE. So he refers to the boys and not to the false Dragons.

[Orderofolde]

Play nice, everyone.

 

Oh, and I don't believe the books support the hypothesis that there are two different types of ta'veren. Mind explaining how you reached that conclusion, Orderofolde?

I was simply referring to the mention of Taveren, those that bend the pattern around them, and those that are forced. Though these could just be the people Rand and the others bend to their will and not "anti" Taveren as I was suggesting might exist. My original post was to wonder if the false dragons that were named were Taveren, but I see how Loial could be saying all three boys were Taveren.

 

Nice catch on the Taveren being limited to the pattern having a need. There could also possibly be a strengthening and a weakening in line with the Pattern's need. People are already wondering if Matt's luck has increased and maybe Perrin's. This makes for some interesting thoughts.

[yoniy0]

Do we know that for sure? Lots of people have talents who cannot channel. Some Ogier can see ta'veren, and Siuan could still partially use an a'dam while stilled, so nothing was totally uprooted from her soul.

Yes, we do. RJ said so quite clearly:

- Someone who sees ta’veren sees them as glowing. The more strongly ta’veren, the brighter the glow. This is a Talent, and is something that only someone who can channel can do. While she was stilled, Siuan could not see ta’veren, nor could she have if she had been burned out.

 

BTW, the quote itself was easy enough to find, if you cared to run a search for "Siuan talent ta'veren"; I myself have quoted him in this matter a couple of times here on DM (here and here, for example).