What was Aran'gar up to?

[Clayden69]

I have said a few times before that I think Eggy is under Compulsion. I think the instruction is... "Oppose the DR in everything he proposes." This is to try and stop the AS and Ashaman from working together as everybody knows the greatest results are from when saidin and saidar are combined. I'm quite keen on the Egwene compulson theory, keener than a lot of theories

[LazyMonk]

what Moghedien told Liandrin suggests a similar mechanism. Only while a part of Liandrin wished to remain alive would Moghedien's order keep her from taking her own life. Perhaps, Moghedien's just not so skilled with Compulsion.

Moghedien seems quite accomplished in Compulsion, she's certainly very quick about it. The command to LIVE comes in that form not for lack of skill in Compulsion, but rather from knowledge of human behavior. No one WANT'S to die utterly, in every suicide there's always an internal struggle. And Liandrin is anything but suicidal.

 

 

I have said a few times before that I think Eggy is under Compulsion. I think the instruction is... "Oppose the DR in everything he proposes." This is to try and stop the AS and Ashaman from working together as everybody knows the greatest results are from when saidin and saidar are combined. I'm quite keen on the Egwene compulson theory, keener than a lot of theories.

If that was the case, it was a spectacular fail. Egwene agreeably went along with the decision to bond As'aman, there's hardly a word against it in her POV.

[FarShainMael]

How did she feel about Asha'man bonding AS?

[Kahsm]

I have said a few times before that I think Eggy is under Compulsion. I think the instruction is... "Oppose the DR in everything he proposes." This is to try and stop the AS and Ashaman from working together as everybody knows the greatest results are from when saidin and saidar are combined. I'm quite keen on the Egwene compulson theory, keener than a lot of theories

 

Egwene rationalizes her oppositions, she doesn't oppose just because she feels she must, which would be the result of such a "top-level" compulsion.

 

That's why I brought up inception, you'd have to have a command that made her think they were her own decisions. And given Mogh's complaint about how "limited" compulsion is, I don't think you can do that.

 

So the compulsion would have to be something like "The seals must not be broken". Just to solidify that belief she already has and make her unwilling to feel the compulsion grating against her logic and to make her PoV still seem rational. But then that would mean Aran'gar knew, or was ordered by someone who knew that the DR would want to break them.

[yoniy0]

Moghedien seems quite accomplished in Compulsion, she's certainly very quick about it. The command to LIVE comes in that form not for lack of skill in Compulsion, but rather from knowledge of human behavior.

I'm not sure I follow. Do you assert that Compulsion always requires the subject to (at least) partly be willing to follow the commands given (which seems incredulous considering what Graendal does with it) or that Moghedien intentionally used a weak form of Compulsion to torment Liandrin? Or perhaps that she just claimed she did?

[Thorgan]

Doesnt Mesaana mention her plot at one time to get the AS to fight for the shadow?

I figure it's the same for Arangar.

 

The extremly high number of BA only really makes sense to me if a good number are newly recruited.

[LazyMonk]

I'm not sure I follow. Do you assert that Compulsion always requires the subject to (at least) partly be willing to follow the commands given (which seems incredulous considering what Graendal does with it) or that Moghedien intentionally used a weak form of Compulsion to torment Liandrin? Or perhaps that she just claimed she did?

All of the Forsaken see Graendal's use Compulsion as excessive / too damaging / wasteful. Graendal's pets are very much like high-functioning zombies - drones, useful for only one or two functions.

It does seem that Moghedien use Compulsion as little and as light when possible. In most cases, she doesn't place commands though Compulsion but only 'tweak' emotions.

When finding Elayne and Ninaeve in Tanchico and the same when taking control of the BA group, she causes adoration then removes it.

And yes, Liandrin's minor Compulsion is punishment. It's not punishment unless you're aware of your situation. That's Graendal's sick excuse - that her 'pets' are happier in her care. Moghedien doesn't want a happy Liandrin, even if it mean brain-damaged happy.

[yoniy0]

So you think it's a matter of degree? That only strong Compulsion doesn't require willingness on the subject's side? Does that conform with what Rahvin did?

[LazyMonk]

So you think it's a matter of degree? That only strong Compulsion doesn't require willingness on the subject's side? Does that conform with what Rahvin did?

Compulsion seems to be finely balanced equation between:

1. Strength of the weave.

2. Damage to the subject.

3. The subject's strength of will.

4. Duration of the effect.

5*. The weaver's skill.

--- The more the Compulsion goes against the subject's belief and the longer the duration of the effect, the stronger it needs to be, and the chance it has to do damage.

 

It does conform with Rahvim's Compulsion.

Rahvim's main tool is Morgase's loneliness and need for love, that's her weakness. He didn't need a strong Compulsion to stir those feelings in her. Everything else he does and everything she does for him relies on those feelings.

Rahvim had no need to break Morgase's will, but over time, while her love for him never changes - she never resists that, she resists other commands that goes against her belief and those he needs to reenforce. However careful Rahvim is, he needs her to keep the pretense of ruling, we see the effect of increasingly heavy/prolonged Compulsion on her she becomes confused and forgetful.

[cmsnaith]

We know Halima could cast compulsion, at the very least, and that she was probably better at it than Graendal. We know this because when Rand sent Ramshalan into Natrin's Barrow, Graendal ordered Halima to compel him.

[csarmi]

We know Halima could cast compulsion, at the very least, and that she was probably better at it than Graendal. We know this because when Rand sent Ramshalan into Natrin's Barrow, Graendal ordered Halima to compel him.

 

????????????????

[cmsnaith]

Okay, sorry, I misspoke. Aran'gar wouldn't be better than Graendal, obviously, but we know she has at least some ability for compulsion.

[FarShainMael]

Both Halima/Aran'gar and Delana used Compulsion on Ramshalan.

 

This bit is interesting:

 

Graendal carefully removed her Compulsion from Ramshalan, leaving him dazed and disoriented.

 

"What is it you wish me to do, Great One?" Delana asked, glancing at Aran'gar and then back at Graendal.

 

"Compulsion," Graendal said. "As intricate and complex as you can make it."

 

"What do you wish it to do, Great Lady?"

 

"Leave him able to act like himself," Graendal said. "But remove all memory of events here. Replace them with a memory of talkng to a merchant family and securing their alliance. Add a few other random requirements on him, whatever occurs to you."

 

...

 

"You next," she said to Aran'gar once Delana had finished. "Something convoluted. I want al'Thor and his Aes Sedai to find the touch of a man on the mind." That would confuse him further.

 

So Compulsion is indeed quite flexible.

[tzdrazil]

Greetings all! My first post, please be kind. I have been following up on various character and plot theories as I re-read the series and felt something worth contributing here.

 

I agree with the previous posts that Aran'gar was mainly there to spread discord among the SAS, preventing a path to unification or discussions with the BT. There are a few other nuggets I've been pondering in WH. The first is the death of AS Alyse (sp?) and her warder, either for information or for what she found out. I would have to re-read if she could sense traces of Saidin weaves. Not a main purpose, but something to consider.

 

The second was the indtroduction of the Keeping weaves 'failing'. This sounds like something Aran'gar would have a hand in that couldn't be traced by most AS. It seems improbable that this specific weave would be the only one that should be failing on a regular basis, or at least the only one mentioned. Why not others?

 

The third was the headaches and interference of Egwene as a dreamer...she didn't resume True Dreams unless Aran'gar was away or after Eg was captured.

 

Thoughts?

[DemandredFO]

Is the AS you mean Cabriana

[Sharaman]

Greetings all! My first post, please be kind. I have been following up on various character and plot theories as I re-read the series and felt something worth contributing here.

 

I agree with the previous posts that Aran'gar was mainly there to spread discord among the SAS, preventing a path to unification or discussions with the BT. There are a few other nuggets I've been pondering in WH. The first is the death of AS Alyse (sp?) and her warder, either for information or for what she found out. I would have to re-read if she could sense traces of Saidin weaves. Not a main purpose, but something to consider.

 

The second was the indtroduction of the Keeping weaves 'failing'. This sounds like something Aran'gar would have a hand in that couldn't be traced by most AS. It seems improbable that this specific weave would be the only one that should be failing on a regular basis, or at least the only one mentioned. Why not others?

 

The third was the headaches and interference of Egwene as a dreamer...she didn't resume True Dreams unless Aran'gar was away or after Eg was captured.

 

Thoughts?

If it's Cabriana, then she's killed because Aran'gar has to have a cover story for coming into the camp.

No other particular reason - Halima just says she knew Cabriana --and obviously if Cabriana lands up, the cover is blown

About the Keeping weaves in the WT and Tar Valon - Halima was never there (that we know of) to make them fail. Mesaana may have been responsible. But more likely it's just the GLoD touching the world.

Yes, Aran'gar did interfere with Egwene's Dreams.

[tzdrazil]

IIRC the death of Cabriana is also what leads the SAS to suspect Halima or Delanna of wrongdoing, shortly before/after the Ashaman discovers Saidin being woven at the SAS meeting of the Hall. I was referring to Anaiya and her warder's death in Crossroads of Twilight, Ch. 20 'In the night'.

[Sharaman]

Cabriana had to be killed because Aran'gar's cover story involved pretending to be a friend of Cabriana. Anaiya and the other AS she killed were close friends of Cabriana, who might have figured out inconsistencies in Aran'gar's cover. Romanda was smart enough to make the connection between the three dead AS and Halima-Delana.

[FarShainMael]

Nisao found the bodies, and detected that they had been killed with saidin. She wasn't killed - if Halima knew what she had found, perhaps s/he would think that killing her would have drawn too much attention.

[Sharaman]

I think Halima was quite happy to have saidin detected as the murder weapon. Until Hopwil at the Cleansing, it automatically warded off suspicion from any woman in Salidar as the possible murderer.

[Kahsm]

Both Halima/Aran'gar and Delana used Compulsion on Ramshalan.

 

This bit is interesting:

 

Graendal carefully removed her Compulsion from Ramshalan, leaving him dazed and disoriented.

 

"What is it you wish me to do, Great One?" Delana asked, glancing at Aran'gar and then back at Graendal.

 

"Compulsion," Graendal said. "As intricate and complex as you can make it."

 

"What do you wish it to do, Great Lady?"

 

"Leave him able to act like himself," Graendal said. "But remove all memory of events here. Replace them with a memory of talkng to a merchant family and securing their alliance. Add a few other random requirements on him, whatever occurs to you."

 

...

 

"You next," she said to Aran'gar once Delana had finished. "Something convoluted. I want al'Thor and his Aes Sedai to find the touch of a man on the mind." That would confuse him further.

 

So Compulsion is indeed quite flexible.

 

Not really, that's just removing memories and adding new ones. That's exactly what Mogh did to Elayne and Nyn in Tanchico (TSR). And then afterwards she said she couldn't do anything about getting them off their BA hunt because compulsion is "limited". I assume that's because she can't impose intention. So she could weave "You searched everywhere and didn't find it." But she doesn't really know how they would react to that. Maybe it's so wrong it would break easily (as Nyn's eventually did when she saw Mogh again).

[FarShainMael]

It's possible to be 'flexible' and 'limited'. She did 'leave him able to act like himself'; and we don't know what those other 'random requirements' were, or what Aran'gar did that was 'convoluted'.

 

I tend to agree with the point about intention, though. To change that, the person would have to be Compelled very heavily, like Kerb (TGS33). To allow someone to appear normal, you would have to be a lot more subtle.

[Lisa Campbell]

Greetings all! My first post, please be kind. I have been following up on various character and plot theories as I re-read the series and felt something worth contributing here.

 

I agree with the previous posts that Aran'gar was mainly there to spread discord among the SAS, preventing a path to unification or discussions with the BT. There are a few other nuggets I've been pondering in WH. The first is the death of AS Alyse (sp?) and her warder, either for information or for what she found out. I would have to re-read if she could sense traces of Saidin weaves. Not a main purpose, but something to consider.

 

The second was the indtroduction of the Keeping weaves 'failing'. This sounds like something Aran'gar would have a hand in that couldn't be traced by most AS. It seems improbable that this specific weave would be the only one that should be failing on a regular basis, or at least the only one mentioned. Why not others?The third was the headaches and interference of Egwene as a dreamer...she didn't resume True Dreams unless Aran'gar was away or after Eg was captured.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think that the keeping weaves start to fail when there is a Forsaken present (ie. set up shop like Arangar, Mesaana). The reason it is noticed amongst the Tower and Salidar AS and not in other cities with Forsaken is because they use it pretty much exclusively, unless some AS's who are with Mat/Perrin etc. make the weave on their food supplies. It seems to me that Mat's & Perrin's food isn't always spoiling because there isn't a Forsaken in their camps and they're mostly on the move. And their Taveren-ness of course.

 

When the wondergirls were in Tear and using Tel'Aran'Rhiod to find the threat to Rand they used Need and ended up in Tanchico (where Moghedian was at the time). When Egwene and Amys meet, it is noticed that Tanchico is kinda cracked (like your mum's vase that you broke one day and glued it back together but you can still see the seams). Amys tells Egwene that there is evil there or something like that.

 

I can't remember if she noticed it in the Tower when she, Nynaeve and Elayne were snooping on Elaida, but if it or something similar was noticed, the reason would be Mesaana in residence.

 

Also, it wouldn't have been noticed in Tear (Be'lal) because Tairens hate AS and probably wouldn't eat food that had been subjected to the One Power. I've also just had a thought that the Stone was made using the Power and was impregnable, but Mat blew up one of the windows/arrowslits with fireworks. I think that Be'lal's presence had weakened the protection/strengthening or whatever was done with the Power when the Stone was built. This would also apply to the Tower getting damaged during the Seanchan raid, because Mesaana was there.

 

What I'm trying to say is that it is similar to the Dark One's evil weakening the seals, and the links the Forsaken have with the Dark One and their own evil, break down the Wards etc. in their vicinity, if they are there for an extended period of time.

 

Phew. that turned out a lot longer than what I first planned on posting but I got on a roll.

[Suttree]

I always though the weaves of keeping were not working because of the DO's touch and the pattern fraying.

[Lisa Campbell]

Yeah that's a valid theory and I'm not really debating it, just that the Forsaken are kind of like avatars/carriers of his evil.

 

There's an interesting theory about how the seals are weakening and breaking. On page 2 of this forum.