Lan vs Mat

[capuga]

I don't know if Lan would win. I'm sure Gawyn is stronger than Lan, because he defeated Sleet plus random Gaidin four times (or three, don't know), while Sleet alone beat Lan two of the seven times. I know, Gawyn wasn't that good when he fought Mat, but he was together with Galad, who was better at that point. And he hasn't had that much practice later one.

 

 

Sleet managed to win two of seven from Lan WHEN Lan used to actually duel with other Warders. That was a long time ago.

 

...and as Mark Grayson already mentioned, both RJ and BS have stated quite often, Lan > Rand with two hands > Galad > Gawyn.

 

 

As far as the question here....well, let's see...Mat beat both Galad and Gawyn together with only a quarterstaff and that was before he was given his memories by the Finns.

Memories that he states outright granted him the ability to use his Ashandarei as skillfully as he does.

 

Gotta go with Mat here but only by a 4-3 or 5-2 out of 7.

 

For the billionth time in threads like this. Those quotes are old, Gawyn was just recently bonded. I don't know if it takes a bit to get used to the new capabilities and limits, but Gawyn could very well be as good or better than Lan now. Quotes asside.

 

And even though I agree Mat's luck puts him above everyone, that duel in tGH means nothing. Hammar knew Mat would dominate them because they were underestimating a farmer with a qstaff. Nothing says (luck asside) they wouldn't have done better going again right after.

 

The quote from Brandon was after ToM and Gawyn's bonding. Lan is better, word of God leaves no debate.

 

And Mat could barely walk so put him at full strength and give him the memories and he still whoops even the current more experienced Gawyn and Galad.

 

Sorry my bad, let me rephrase that, and also add the quote you're referring to:

 

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

The quote refers to Gawyn before bonding. Since Gawyn hasn't fought anyone since bonding, there's no way that can refer to post-bonding combat. Also, if we're going to discount luck as Brandon had done, that kinda changes the whole discussion regarding Mat.

 

I totally understand if someone wants to take this as gospel, but I most certainly feel that there's a tonne of evidence to the contrary regarding Galad being better than Gawyn (ignore Lan for the moment).

 

I mean how on earth could Galad be better than Gawyn at this point? Just look at the success Gawyn has not just with blood knives but in his sparring. I can only assume Galad has been rather busy running the whitecloaks while Gawyn has had next to nothing to do but practice.

 

The only reason I can see is that Gawyn feels he owes Galad his life and therefore (just like he was doing with Egwene) he differs to Galad, subconsciously lets him win. So Gawyn would fare better against Lan than Galad would, but Galad would beat Gawyn because Gawyn sabotages himself against Galad.

 

As for bonding, Galad talks about how Aes Sedai are being selfish not bonding a warder because it makes a man a better solider. All evidence suggests that the difference between a bonded man and a non-bonded man is quite large. So are you going to argue that Gawyn was so much worse than Galad that even with a warder bond he still isn't as good?

 

The only on screen comparisons we have between Galad and Gawyn occur during their Tower training. And Galad is better at that time as evidenced by everyone's comments when watching them practice, by Gawyn's own thoughts, and by the number of times they beat Hammar in sparring. Yes, Gawyn has more on screen sword feats since then. But more opportunities to fight and more on screen time does not make Gawyn better. For all we know, Galad would have accomplished all the same things Gawyn has, only better. Without any additional on screen comparisons or common opponents, I'll take the author's word.

[Lisa Campbell]

Yeah OK, there have been a few posts since my last so I'll take M's take. Although thaat does raise the question of Suian's take of Gawyn doen't it? Not necsarily better but more dangerous?

[mandersen]

Something that frustrated me earlier in the series was there was always someone popping up who could top everyone else. Who's the tallest? there's always someone a "hand taller than even [so and so]". Who's the strongest in the OP? Who's the best swordsman? Who's got the best bosom Mat's ever seen? Etc. Some of these we have answers to, some not (maybe Selucia? or Riselle?). To me Lan being the best swordsman is settled (I've heard the arguments for Gawyn but remain unconvinced). But it's nice that ALL the questions aren't answered so we can have these nice friendly debates.

 

As for my opinion, Lan is the best fighter PERIOD. I'd bet on him against almost anyone WITHOUT a weapon. The man IS a weapon. And Lan, with the weapon he's most comfortable with, could beat Mat (sans luck or ta'veren-ness), even with his superior weapon. I know it sounds fantastical to those of you more versed in weaponry, but keep in mind that this is fantasy fiction, and RJ seems to put more stock in the individual than the tool.

[Lisa Campbell]

Me too, so very glad we can have nice friendly debates. I love Mat and I love Lan. Somehow it ends up being that you're not on the side you first started fighting for. I wonder if that was RJ's intention right from the start?

[Finnssss22]

I don't know if Lan would win. I'm sure Gawyn is stronger than Lan, because he defeated Sleet plus random Gaidin four times (or three, don't know), while Sleet alone beat Lan two of the seven times. I know, Gawyn wasn't that good when he fought Mat, but he was together with Galad, who was better at that point. And he hasn't had that much practice later one.

 

 

Sleet managed to win two of seven from Lan WHEN Lan used to actually duel with other Warders. That was a long time ago.

 

...and as Mark Grayson already mentioned, both RJ and BS have stated quite often, Lan > Rand with two hands > Galad > Gawyn.

 

 

As far as the question here....well, let's see...Mat beat both Galad and Gawyn together with only a quarterstaff and that was before he was given his memories by the Finns.

Memories that he states outright granted him the ability to use his Ashandarei as skillfully as he does.

 

Gotta go with Mat here but only by a 4-3 or 5-2 out of 7.

 

For the billionth time in threads like this. Those quotes are old, Gawyn was just recently bonded. I don't know if it takes a bit to get used to the new capabilities and limits, but Gawyn could very well be as good or better than Lan now. Quotes asside.

 

 

 

What quotes are old???

You mean this quote from BS's twitter on November 8th 2010 AFTER the release of ToM?

 

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

[Kahsm]

I don't know if Lan would win. I'm sure Gawyn is stronger than Lan, because he defeated Sleet plus random Gaidin four times (or three, don't know), while Sleet alone beat Lan two of the seven times. I know, Gawyn wasn't that good when he fought Mat, but he was together with Galad, who was better at that point. And he hasn't had that much practice later one.

 

 

Sleet managed to win two of seven from Lan WHEN Lan used to actually duel with other Warders. That was a long time ago.

 

...and as Mark Grayson already mentioned, both RJ and BS have stated quite often, Lan > Rand with two hands > Galad > Gawyn.

 

 

As far as the question here....well, let's see...Mat beat both Galad and Gawyn together with only a quarterstaff and that was before he was given his memories by the Finns.

Memories that he states outright granted him the ability to use his Ashandarei as skillfully as he does.

 

Gotta go with Mat here but only by a 4-3 or 5-2 out of 7.

 

For the billionth time in threads like this. Those quotes are old, Gawyn was just recently bonded. I don't know if it takes a bit to get used to the new capabilities and limits, but Gawyn could very well be as good or better than Lan now. Quotes asside.

 

 

 

What quotes are old???

You mean this quote from BS's twitter on November 8th 2010 AFTER the release of ToM?

 

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

I see you jumped to correct me. You'll have to scroll up to see my response since it was already done, and I already responded.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

I see you jumped to correct me. You'll have to scroll up to see my response since it was already done, and I already responded.

 

 

...and it still doesn't matter because BS's quote was AFTER ToM was released, AFTER Gawyn was already bonded.

 

Arguing this is like arguing that Demandred and Taim are the same person still.

 

We have been told by BOTH authors exactly what the pecking order is....accept it and deal with it already for crying out loud.

[Lacanos]

Best Swordsman I take to mean most skilled. Not the one most likely to win a fight.

I entirely buy that Galad is more skilled than Gawyn. His style is supposed to be beautiful, and I think that's exactly what the two authors are going for. However, Gawyn has been recently bonded as KP points out, and seems more driven, determined and bound to find a way than Galad.

 

So Galad may be more skilled, but I think he'd lose.

[Finnssss22]

The other thing to consider here is that by the time Rand faces off with Riallin in aCoS, Rand was ranked #2 behind only Lan at the time.

Riallin gave Rand a good go and was obviously almost his equal, yet in WH, Lan demolishes Riallin in the time it took Rand to chase Fain down a short hallway.

 

That's about all you have to know about Lan's uber prowess imo.

[Kahsm]

 

 

I see you jumped to correct me. You'll have to scroll up to see my response since it was already done, and I already responded.

 

 

...and it still doesn't matter because BS's quote was AFTER ToM was released, AFTER Gawyn was already bonded.

 

Arguing this is like arguing that Demandred and Taim are the same person still.

 

We have been told by BOTH authors exactly what the pecking order is....accept it and deal with it already for crying out loud.

 

I have said already that it seems to be true because the author said it. That doesn't change the fact that every suggestion from the books is that it's not true.

 

And as I pointed out, Sanderson was referring to specific fights before the bonding. And as Lacanos points out, skilled may not be so related to who would win since we asked about sword skill and not "who fights best".

 

I acknowledge other possibilities because there is no logic in what that quote seems to suggest.

[Entreri]

Of course, this fight is PRIME VS. PRIME. Unfair to have one-eyed Mat fight Lan. Double KO.

 

 

Lan has uber skill, unmatched mental and physical toughness.

 

Mat has uber skill, unmatched luck factor.

 

 

Pecking order Lan > Rand > Galad > Gawyn, according to both authors, for anyone who does not know yet.

 

 

Mat very very easily manhandled both Galad and Gawyn. THE Man vs. 2 spoiled children.

 

Gawyn specifically mentions in book 12 his training with blademaster Gareth Bryne as a young man.

 

Mat with less than a year of training destroys both and sooooo easily. Mat was about to collapse from hunger during the battle! (read his PoV).

 

A true phenom and the greatest character in WoT (even with that atrocious writing of his PoV on women in tSR/book 12).

[Never]

 

Mat with less than a year of training destroys both and sooooo easily

 

Less than a year training? I can see him having at least ten years training with the quarterstaff.

The less militant approach to fighting in the Two Rivers doesn't mean Mat, who has "the quickest hands and feet [Thom] had ever seen", coupled with the Ole Blood, has any serious disadvantage to the two princes when it comes to training. Also, Jarad (?), the greatest swordsman ever, lost to a farmer with a quarterstaff.

 

I'm not saying I have any formal training, but I grew up pretty isolated and spent the first 14 years of my life basically running around the forest with my friends, hitting each other with sticks. From my experience, for what it's worth, a two-bladed saber like the one used by Darth Maul is very much superior to a "sword" - you can't get as much power, but you can get more speed. Also, one of the main points of physical confrontation is to control your opponent's next move. If you fight someone with a "sword" with a "staff", you can for instance go "Head - feet", which will be extremely swift and will force the opponent to act according to your attacks.

 

That being said, a real staff vs. a real sword would probably be much more even, perhaps with an advantage on the side with the sword - the added weight will throw a quarterstaff of balance. If Galad and Gawyn had been using real swords, I think Mat would have lost. The lost speed on the princes side would be a problem, but in a situation like that they would have been hard pressed to use speed to win. They're much better of using strength and heavy weaponry - Mat would have had to put much more effort into leading the attacks away, and if they attacked together.. well, it's like Birgithe says when she comments on women using swords - they would have to be a lot better than a male opponent due to the importance of strength.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

I have said already that it seems to be true because the author said it. That doesn't change the fact that every suggestion from the books is that it's not true.

 

 

So I guess you missed the suggestion from WH when Lan takes on Riallin, a Blade Master of some repute and at the very least almost on par with Rand, that an author notorious for long descriptive fights can't even muster up more than a sentence for that one because Lan destroys him so quickly?

 

Basically, you're saying that because Gawyn has had more, or been fighting in more PoV's than anyone else, that he is #1 now? That's just a silly "what have you done for me lately" observation.

 

Look, I understand and I think that Gawyn, if he lives long enough, could one day surpass Galad and possibly Lan but that's a ways off atm.

Like you do realise that it was only about a year ago, that Galad was kicking Gawyn's ass daily!

You are saying that in 1 year that Gawyn has not only passed Galad but is ready to challenge Lan to boot....c'mon dude.

[RoyElamJr.]

It would have to be Mat. The pattern would not allow it.

[Suttree]

 

Mat with less than a year of training destroys both and sooooo easily

 

Less than a year training? I can see him having at least ten years training with the quarterstaff.

 

Correct, the staff is a farmers weapon. Mat's father was said to win the contest at Bel Tine every year in the TR's. You would think one would start training with it at a very early age.

[Ledinna Sedai]

Maybe Mat. That luck can't lose unless losing is somehow the better option. With those memories of other's he has even more "experience" than Lan.

[Din]

Yet if they held the mob, it was Galad who broke them. He faced their charge as though awaiting the

next dance at a ball, arms folded and unconcerned, not even bothering to bare his blade ‘until they were almost

on top of him. Then he did dance, all his grace turned in an instant to fluid death. He did not stand against them;

he carved a path into their heart, a clear swath as wide as-his sword’s reach. Sometimes five or six men closed

in around himwith swords and axes and table legs for clubs, but only for the brief time it took them to die. In the

end, all their rage, all their thirst for blood, could not face him. It was from him that the first ran, flinging away

weapons, and when the rest fled, they divided around him. As they vanished back the way they had come, he

stood twenty paces from anyone else, alone among the dead and the groans of the dying.

Just in case people had forgotten.

[Kahsm]

 

 

I have said already that it seems to be true because the author said it. That doesn't change the fact that every suggestion from the books is that it's not true.

 

 

So I guess you missed the suggestion from WH when Lan takes on Riallin, a Blade Master of some repute and at the very least almost on par with Rand, that an author notorious for long descriptive fights can't even muster up more than a sentence for that one because Lan destroys him so quickly?

 

Basically, you're saying that because Gawyn has had more, or been fighting in more PoV's than anyone else, that he is #1 now? That's just a silly "what have you done for me lately" observation.

 

Look, I understand and I think that Gawyn, if he lives long enough, could one day surpass Galad and possibly Lan but that's a ways off atm.

Like you do realise that it was only about a year ago, that Galad was kicking Gawyn's ass daily!

You are saying that in 1 year that Gawyn has not only passed Galad but is ready to challenge Lan to boot....c'mon dude.

 

I guess you missed when I said I put Lan asside and was only talking about Galad being better than Gawyn. Since that part is what makes me question the entire answer. I am much more open to Lan being better than Gawyn since he also has a warder bond. That actually makes sense.

 

And yes, a year is more than enough for Gawyn to pass Galad. Look at how quickly any main-ish character learns anything. Perrin and his Axe for example if you plan to claim LTT on Rand becoming a blademaster overnight.

[Arkane101]

why on earth is everyone calling Toram Riatin Toram Riallin? it's putting me off lol. Anyway, I always took out that Toram was better, if only marginally then Rand, I know he only struck the winning blow due to distraction, but he was pushing Rand back before it happened.

[Arkane101]

Maybe Mat. That luck can't lose unless losing is somehow the better option. With those memories of other's he has even more "experience" than Lan.

I would say most of his experience is generaling not actually fighting, and who can say that much of his experience is with a staff/polearm like weapon?

 

In addition, even if all of it were fighting memories, it isn't the same as him actually training, for one, Lan would be a hell of a lot stronger than Mat and he would have trained his hand-eye coordination more and im sure theres other advantages.

[Entreri]

 

Mat with less than a year of training destroys both and sooooo easily

 

Less than a year training? I can see him having at least ten years training with the quarterstaff.

The less militant approach to fighting in the Two Rivers doesn't mean Mat, who has "the quickest hands and feet [Thom] had ever seen", coupled with the Ole Blood, has any serious disadvantage to the two princes when it comes to training. Also, Jarad (?), the greatest swordsman ever, lost to a farmer with a quarterstaff.

 

I'm not saying I have any formal training, but I grew up pretty isolated and spent the first 14 years of my life basically running around the forest with my friends, hitting each other with sticks. From my experience, for what it's worth, a two-bladed saber like the one used by Darth Maul is very much superior to a "sword" - you can't get as much power, but you can get more speed. Also, one of the main points of physical confrontation is to control your opponent's next move. If you fight someone with a "sword" with a "staff", you can for instance go "Head - feet", which will be extremely swift and will force the opponent to act according to your attacks.

 

That being said, a real staff vs. a real sword would probably be much more even, perhaps with an advantage on the side with the sword - the added weight will throw a quarterstaff of balance. If Galad and Gawyn had been using real swords, I think Mat would have lost. The lost speed on the princes side would be a problem, but in a situation like that they would have been hard pressed to use speed to win. They're much better of using strength and heavy weaponry - Mat would have had to put much more effort into leading the attacks away, and if they attacked together.. well, it's like Birgithe says when she comments on women using swords - they would have to be a lot better than a male opponent due to the importance of strength.

 

With Mat's attitude, I doubt that he trained intensely in the use of the staff or bow. He took things far too lightly for that. At best he may have trained for week or two in a year. This is against formal training the prince's received.

 

 

What you describe is a what if scenario (real swords). What is known is that Mat, who was sick at the time and near starvation, easily beat both Galad and Gawyn.

 

 

Here is my what if scenario:

 

Taking your Jearom vs. farmer and superimposing it on Mat (who was after all a sheepherder), this would mean Mat with quarterstaff >> any blademaster...where does that lead Galad (#3 blademaster) and #4 blademaster (Gawyn), if the greatest blademaster ever is no match against a mere farmer?

 

Lastly, real world fighting may not apply to this fantasy series...

[Entreri]

why on earth is everyone calling Toram Riatin Toram Riallin? it's putting me off lol. Anyway, I always took out that Toram was better, if only marginally then Rand, I know he only struck the winning blow due to distraction, but he was pushing Rand back before it happened.

 

Rand > Riatin

 

Rand wore his coat, gloves (both of which restrict movement, which Riatin commented on) and took it as sport.

 

Given this, and how easily Lan defeated Riatin...

 

Lan #1 >> Rand #2 > Galad#3 > Gawyn #4.

 

Lan can probably defeat Galad and Gawyn at once, akin to Mat.

[Suttree]

With Mat's attitude, I doubt that he trained intensely in the use of the staff or bow. He took things far too lightly for that. At best he may have trained for week or two in a year. This is against formal training the prince's received.

 

A week or two a year? Highly unlikely considering it's one of the things Mat would have enjoyed doing to escape the drudgery of farm work.

 

Again the staff is a farmers weapon, used in daily life on a regular basis. Mat's father won the contest at Bel Tine ever year. It is perfectly reasonable to think he would have trained his son a great deal more than what you put forth and started him out at a young age.

[Never]

 

With Mat's attitude, I doubt that he trained intensely in the use of the staff or bow. He took things far too lightly for that. At best he may have trained for week or two in a year. This is against formal training the prince's received.

 

 

What you describe is a what if scenario (real swords). What is known is that Mat, who was sick at the time and near starvation, easily beat both Galad and Gawyn.

 

 

Here is my what if scenario:

 

Taking your Jearom vs. farmer and superimposing it on Mat (who was after all a sheepherder), this would mean Mat with quarterstaff >> any blademaster...where does that lead Galad (#3 blademaster) and #4 blademaster (Gawyn), if the greatest blademaster ever is no match against a mere farmer?

 

Lastly, real world fighting may not apply to this fantasy series...

 

 

What you say about Mat applies only if he thinks of practice with the quarterstaff as work. Myself, I would never do my homework, but I could spend hours every day playing football (soccer). Don't see why people who shun work couldn't enjoy other activities, even though they may be physically exhausting.

 

And the difference between real swords and wooden practice swords is rather huge. The weight, and the ability to simply break the staff at impact, makes real swords vastly superior to those used by Galad and Gawyn at the time.

 

Also, just because Mat is better doesn't mean he would win. A small misstep can cause the whole battle to change. Just like Liverpool won't always beat Wigan - there are a lot of factors other than skills involved; one kick of the ball decides the next move etc. But yes, Mat with Ashandarei could probably beat Lan most of the time, on even ground. Random chains of events tend to go his way.

 

And real world fighting might not be exact, but I can't think of any better frame of reference to determine those things about fighting that are not clear from the books and/or quotes from the WoT-staff.

[Never]

I seem to have double posted, but couldn't fint the delete post-option.