Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[ptolemy99]

I'm not in the anti-egwene crowd. Why do so many people assume that discussing something negative about one of the characters means they dislike the character in their entirety?

 

It does a disservice to everyone when you start assuming things incorrectly and attributing your own assumptions back onto others.

 

 

 

 

And I consider what Egwene is doing with other channelers bad because I can see what the Aes Sedai have become after thousands of years. Shady deals and behind the back politics is the norm in the current WT. They just had a AS vs. AS war and in weeks right after they started right up again when the sitters attempted to shift control of the tower from Egwene the Amyrlin to themselves.

 

Egwene, rightly, demanded and forced and vote on openness in tower dealing and voting. This was a positive move and spoke well of a change in the direction of AS politics. Then she reverts right back to disingenuous dealing. The wise ones respect Egwene. If what she is doing is such a good idea, tell them what and why and let them consider it among themselves as the decision is a potentially momentous one. She opts instead to "handle" them to reach her goals.

 

A leader should lead by example not only when it is convenient to do so. I feel she does not do this in this instance and that bothers me. I have higher hopes for her as the Amyrlin.

[ptolemy99]

double post

[Suttree]

I'm not in the anti-egwene crowd. Why do so many people assume that discussing something negative about one of the characters means they dislike the character in their entirety?

 

 

Assuming seems to work really well here.

 

My mistake if I was wrong but it takes some serious mental gymnastics to turn the channeling exchange program into something negative. In addition you implied she was fine with having other sisters collared. Pretty obvious how I would come to that conclusion I think.

[ptolemy99]

I'm not in the anti-egwene crowd. Why do so many people assume that discussing something negative about one of the characters means they dislike the character in their entirety?

 

 

Assuming seems to work really well here.

 

My mistake if I was wrong but it takes some serious mental gymnastics to turn the channeling exchange program into something negative. In addition you implied she was fine with having other sisters collared. Pretty obvious how I would come to that conclusion I think.

 

It isn't what she is doing I have the problem with. It is the manner and method that she is using to reach her goals. She could be better than that.

[Suttree]

I'm not in the anti-egwene crowd. Why do so many people assume that discussing something negative about one of the characters means they dislike the character in their entirety?

 

 

Assuming seems to work really well here.

 

My mistake if I was wrong but it takes some serious mental gymnastics to turn the channeling exchange program into something negative. In addition you implied she was fine with having other sisters collared. Pretty obvious how I would come to that conclusion I think.

 

It isn't what she is doing I have the problem with. It is the manner and method that she is using to reach her goals. She could be better than that.

 

If you don't think the Aiel and Seafolk will be jockeying for the upper hand in the deal as well you are delusional.

 

ToM

"We will lead them, Yukiri. We must become a source that women look to, all women. We achieve that by not holding too tightly, by bringing their channelers to train with us and by sending our most talented Accepted to become experts in the things they are best at."

"And if they are saying the same thing right now?" Leane asked softly, looking over at the Wise Ones, who were speaking un hushed tones on the far side of the room. "If they try to play us as we play them?"

"Then we have to play the best," Egwene said. "All of this is secondary, for now. We need unity against the Shadow and the Seanchan..."

 

She is working for unity and focused on TG, clearly stating that is what matters most. Not sure what is wrong with her method here?

[Xcorpyo001]

I left it out because I didn't want Kael P. to loose time telling me that Nynaeve and Mesanna can't pull the victim card against Egwene or anyone else. Nightmare, rape, don't matter. They are big girls and can handle a little pressure.

 

So Egwene actually had her friend raped now? Come on Aiel, it was already bad enough, you have more than enough ammo to work with already without resorting to that.

 

 

What? Where did I said that?

Nynaeve was tied up with the nightmare, Mesanna with the rape(and not by Egwene).

I never said Egwene raped anyone.

[Suttree]

I left it out because I didn't want Kael P. to loose time telling me that Nynaeve and Mesanna can't pull the victim card against Egwene or anyone else. Nightmare, rape, don't matter. They are big girls and can handle a little pressure.

 

So Egwene actually had her friend raped now? Come on Aiel, it was already bad enough, you have more than enough ammo to work with already without resorting to that.

 

 

What? Where did I said that?

Nynaeve was tied up with the nightmare, Mesanna with the rape(and not by Egwene).

I never said Egwene raped anyone.

 

My bad mate, was speed reading with a movie playing in the background!

[Chriswot]

Ah Egwene. You know on my first read through of this series I loathed Egwene pretty much from the start. She was a bully, she assumed way too much about men, and her braid seemed ten times tighter than Nynaeve's ever could be. She seemed arrogant as well. It wasn't until I got to know Eggy around the 3-4th read that I actually opened my eyes and started seeing her for who she really was.

 

She grows in such a profound way. She starts out in a small backwards sheep herding / tabac farming village in the middle of nowhere, the daughter of the mayor/innkeeper. She leaves for a life of adventure in her youth and finds only pain and hardship as a result. She was enslaved for crying out loud. All her rights and freedoms taken away. Treated as if she were a dog and abused for every misstep. If that alone doesn't change a girl nothing will.

 

She wants so bad to be an AS she dreams about being amyrlin someday and her dreams are very special because they have a tendancy to come true. The white tower sends her away to hunt black ajah, and there is no way she was ready for that, as a result she is captured yet again, abused again. See a trend here? A weak young girl becoming a hard woman. She is further tempered by her training with the wise ones. Her ability in the power counts for nothing among them and they set her down so many notches, all in their very first conversation in the sweat tent. At this point in our story yes she is an arrogant girl, but by the time she leaves to become a puppet amyrlin in the rebels camp she is a woman who is in it for the long haul.

 

Once she is made puppet Amyrlin she is forced to make many difficult decisions. How can anyone fault her for making people swear to serve her? What other options would she have had? Roll over and let those crones in the hall pull her strings? I Think not. She knows there was a reason for her being in Rands life at the start of it all. She knows there is a reason she got on Bella on winternight. It's not arrogance, it's knowing what you have to do and doing the best with what you have.

 

She fights many political battles but at the core of it all is her need to help Rand. Yes it seems like she just wants to unify the tower, it does and there is most likely a dozen or more quotes someone can pull out of the books to support that. However read into what's not written, look at her character and what she has been through before judging her on her actions or thoughts. When you are a leader of people no matter how insignificant a leader you will understand, you need to make a plan, stick with it and make fast decisions on the fly. I think she's done that to great effect. After being captured and tortured by She who must not be named, she made a battle plan. She would not give into any of that womans whims or demands. She stuck to her cause even though it could have been her life. Is that arrogance? If anything its self sacrifice...

 

All throughout her captivity in Tar Valon she sees the destruction Elaida has wrought and it tears her apart. It seethes inside her like a tumor, twisting her soul. She wants Tar Valon to be a better place and she is confident she is the one to do it. The Seanchan attack, she musters her forces and puts on one hellofa defence against huge odds. Is she arrogant while holding tamra's rod? No she is hellbent and determined to stop the institution she loves from being destroyed. She was her own little storm of light. As a result of using so much power she passes out only to be taken away from a certain victory and back into an unknown state of siege on the white tower. Of course shes going to be upset at the people that disobeyed her. It's like knowing you can make that three point shot with 2 seconds on the clock and your coach is screaming at you to pass the ball to get the tie to force overtime.

 

Gawyn's love and stubborness is hard on her. He turns her to mush. She needs to be strong and capable yet when he looks at her shes putty, shes half melted wax. She tries so very hard to balance him and his needs with the needs of the whole white tower. She indulges him where she can by giving him leave to investigate the murders, yet she punishes him when he ruins all her plans. Gawyn gets miffed about it and dips. Then his sister a fellow woman of power and influence explains that he's being a douche that eggy needs him to be there for her, not the other way around. She has weaknesses my friends. She has flaws because she was wrong about the blood knives and she admits it to herself at least, that without gawyn she'd be dead.

 

As for this pact between the channeling women of rand land.... Well no offense intended here ladies and gents but if you see Egwene's plan to link the wise ones and the windfinders to the white tower as some sort of diabolical way of making the white tower the ultimate power in the world, you truly need to go back and read that chapter again. Shes forging a new begining. Shes Perrin only her hammer is her will and the iron on the anvil is the new white tower. Shes shaping a white tower with no secrets, a white tower with no cracks for forsaken or any evil to seep in and stain it. More importantly shes shaping a white tower the other cultures of the world do not fear, and through that a stronger worldly culture.

 

I think if you are an Egwene hater or are leaning more to that boat, first of all if you've only read the story once, read it again. Secondly try to put yourself in her shoes as you read through that story. It might change your opinion. It changed mine. Lastly folks, I think as this story we all love plays out and comes to an end love her or hate her Egwene will be a deciding factor in the last battle.

 

ps just my thoughts and opinion on Eggy, I'm not trying to belittle anyone's own ideas as they are your ideas.

 

Chris.

[Hopefire]

I think if you are an Egwene hater or are leaning more to that boat, first of all if you've only read the story once, read it again. Secondly try to put yourself in her shoes as you read through that story. It might change your opinion. It changed mine.

 

I love the character, not for her positive traits, but for her negative traits. I think that Egwene might be the most internally consistent, non-crazy, human character in fantasy fiction. She's strong and flawed like real people are.

 

I think that most people replying in this thread have read the series more than once. Personally speaking, the more I read the series the more impressed I am with Egwene's character, and the less I like Egwene as a person.

 

The best related example I can think of to illustrate how I feel is DarkRand. I think that DarkRand was callous, arrogant, manipulative, etc. I think that as a person, DarkRand was absolutely terrible, pretty much as evil as one of the Forsaken (note: I am NOT trying to imply that Egwene is anything like one of the Forsaken, just to be clear). Having said that, it was the most interesting Rand had been all series in some ways.

[MasterAblar]

So if the Aes Sedai can't even rescue their own, how did they ever expect to oversee the victory at TG? Egwene seems to have time to plan how to get AS hooks into all the other channelers free of WT influence, but not even a moment to consider a plan to gateway in and save those who were kidnapped? And wasn't Egwene collared once? She is fine with letting others live that life as long as she doesn't have to I guess.

 

It would be too complicated, and too dangerous. The damane would be able to feel the gateways and the AS's ability to channel. And seeing as the damane are overall far better fighters, I think the AS would have little chance of succeeding in a rescue attempt. Besides Egwene already had a lot of things to deal with. And it's precisely because she knows what it feels like to be collared that she was shooting down the Toraken leaving the WT with captured AS. She considered death to be kinder.

 

I'm not in the anti-egwene crowd. Why do so many people assume that discussing something negative about one of the characters means they dislike the character in their entirety?

 

 

Assuming seems to work really well here.

 

My mistake if I was wrong but it takes some serious mental gymnastics to turn the channeling exchange program into something negative. In addition you implied she was fine with having other sisters collared. Pretty obvious how I would come to that conclusion I think.

 

It isn't what she is doing I have the problem with. It is the manner and method that she is using to reach her goals. She could be better than that.

 

If you don't think the Aiel and Seafolk will be jockeying for the upper hand in the deal as well you are delusional.

 

ToM

"We will lead them, Yukiri. We must become a source that women look to, all women. We achieve that by not holding too tightly, by bringing their channelers to train with us and by sending our most talented Accepted to become experts in the things they are best at."

"And if they are saying the same thing right now?" Leane asked softly, looking over at the Wise Ones, who were speaking un hushed tones on the far side of the room. "If they try to play us as we play them?"

"Then we have to play the best," Egwene said. "All of this is secondary, for now. We need unity against the Shadow and the Seanchan..."

 

She is working for unity and focused on TG, clearly stating that is what matters most. Not sure what is wrong with her method here?

 

Focused on the Shadow, but also on the Seanchan apparently, which, while understandable, is something she's going to have to get past.

 

 

I think Egwene's wording (or thinking) can make it rather ambiguous how honest she means to be with the Wise Ones and Windfinders. Nonetheless I think it's pretty clear that as you say the three groups will definitely be jockeying to have a dominant position over the two other. To me the reason why the reaction towards Egwene is often negative is:

 

1) It's from Egwene's PoV. We don't know what the Wise Ones and Windfinders are thinking.

2) Of the three groups, the Aes Sedai are the most disliked. The Windfinders aren't very liked either, but we see them a lot less than the AS.

3) The Aes Sedai have a history of manipulating other parties, and while it's not suprising that they would continue that, people would hope that Egwene would change that and bring a positive change to the AS.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Ah Egwene. You know on my first read through of this series I loathed Egwene pretty much from the start. She was a bully, she assumed way too much about men, and her braid seemed ten times tighter than Nynaeve's ever could be. She seemed arrogant as well. It wasn't until I got to know Eggy around the 3-4th read that I actually opened my eyes and started seeing her for who she really was.

 

She grows in such a profound way. She starts out in a small backwards sheep herding / tabac farming village in the middle of nowhere, the daughter of the mayor/innkeeper. She leaves for a life of adventure in her youth and finds only pain and hardship as a result. She was enslaved for crying out loud. All her rights and freedoms taken away. Treated as if she were a dog and abused for every misstep. If that alone doesn't change a girl nothing will.

 

She wants so bad to be an AS she dreams about being amyrlin someday and her dreams are very special because they have a tendancy to come true. The white tower sends her away to hunt black ajah, and there is no way she was ready for that, as a result she is captured yet again, abused again. See a trend here? A weak young girl becoming a hard woman. She is further tempered by her training with the wise ones. Her ability in the power counts for nothing among them and they set her down so many notches, all in their very first conversation in the sweat tent. At this point in our story yes she is an arrogant girl, but by the time she leaves to become a puppet amyrlin in the rebels camp she is a woman who is in it for the long haul.

 

Once she is made puppet Amyrlin she is forced to make many difficult decisions. How can anyone fault her for making people swear to serve her? What other options would she have had? Roll over and let those crones in the hall pull her strings? I Think not. She knows there was a reason for her being in Rands life at the start of it all. She knows there is a reason she got on Bella on winternight. It's not arrogance, it's knowing what you have to do and doing the best with what you have.

 

She fights many political battles but at the core of it all is her need to help Rand. Yes it seems like she just wants to unify the tower, it does and there is most likely a dozen or more quotes someone can pull out of the books to support that. However read into what's not written, look at her character and what she has been through before judging her on her actions or thoughts. When you are a leader of people no matter how insignificant a leader you will understand, you need to make a plan, stick with it and make fast decisions on the fly. I think she's done that to great effect. After being captured and tortured by She who must not be named, she made a battle plan. She would not give into any of that womans whims or demands. She stuck to her cause even though it could have been her life. Is that arrogance? If anything its self sacrifice...

 

All throughout her captivity in Tar Valon she sees the destruction Elaida has wrought and it tears her apart. It seethes inside her like a tumor, twisting her soul. She wants Tar Valon to be a better place and she is confident she is the one to do it. The Seanchan attack, she musters her forces and puts on one hellofa defence against huge odds. Is she arrogant while holding tamra's rod? No she is hellbent and determined to stop the institution she loves from being destroyed. She was her own little storm of light. As a result of using so much power she passes out only to be taken away from a certain victory and back into an unknown state of siege on the white tower. Of course shes going to be upset at the people that disobeyed her. It's like knowing you can make that three point shot with 2 seconds on the clock and your coach is screaming at you to pass the ball to get the tie to force overtime.

 

Gawyn's love and stubborness is hard on her. He turns her to mush. She needs to be strong and capable yet when he looks at her shes putty, shes half melted wax. She tries so very hard to balance him and his needs with the needs of the whole white tower. She indulges him where she can by giving him leave to investigate the murders, yet she punishes him when he ruins all her plans. Gawyn gets miffed about it and dips. Then his sister a fellow woman of power and influence explains that he's being a douche that eggy needs him to be there for her, not the other way around. She has weaknesses my friends. She has flaws because she was wrong about the blood knives and she admits it to herself at least, that without gawyn she'd be dead.

 

As for this pact between the channeling women of rand land.... Well no offense intended here ladies and gents but if you see Egwene's plan to link the wise ones and the windfinders to the white tower as some sort of diabolical way of making the white tower the ultimate power in the world, you truly need to go back and read that chapter again. Shes forging a new begining. Shes Perrin only her hammer is her will and the iron on the anvil is the new white tower. Shes shaping a white tower with no secrets, a white tower with no cracks for forsaken or any evil to seep in and stain it. More importantly shes shaping a white tower the other cultures of the world do not fear, and through that a stronger worldly culture.

 

I think if you are an Egwene hater or are leaning more to that boat, first of all if you've only read the story once, read it again. Secondly try to put yourself in her shoes as you read through that story. It might change your opinion. It changed mine. Lastly folks, I think as this story we all love plays out and comes to an end love her or hate her Egwene will be a deciding factor in the last battle.

 

ps just my thoughts and opinion on Eggy, I'm not trying to belittle anyone's own ideas as they are your ideas.

 

Chris.

 

It is one of the best pro-Egwene posts I've read, even though as most of them, it is also flawed with uncomprehensible superiority feeling ("If you think differently than me, maybe you should read again, because you certainly lack in knowledge or understanding if you think what you think"). I think it would do our debates much good if we accepted good will and equivalent knowledge and reading comprehension skills on part of all the disputants. It is possible to read certain characters very differently, even if we all have read the series a dozen times. I acknowledge the last sentence of your post though, so everything's fine.

 

You post tells the story of Egwene as, I'm sure, RJ wanted to tell it. It is this Egwene the readers should enjoy reading about and should root for. It is this Egwene who should play decisive role in the Last Battle. Many readers certainly have seen Egwene in this light and loved her.

 

There are other readers however, who would love to read the story of this wonderful woman and could not find her on the pages of WOT. "However read into what's not written", as you yourself have said, or you might see things at odds with the wonderful picture you've painted. I personally think that negative traits of Egwene many readers see where not always deliberately put there by RJ but interpreted in ways unforeseen by him by the readers (e.g. the TAR confrontation with Nynaeve).

 

The other problem is the literary quality of the character and her arc itself. This is strictly subjective, but for me, who love WOT and admire RJ's writing skills, Egwene's arc is a writing disaster. I know where he wants to get with this charater, but the manner in which he leads her there is so heavy-handed, obvious and inconsistent that I'm simply put off even though I'd certainly prefer to enjoy it, as it takes a lot of space. Those Aes Sedai behaving as idiots, one of fauvorite characters -Siuan - reduced to singing hosannas to Egwene's greatness, her sudden genius skills in everything from channeling, politics, WT history, law and dealing with warders...No matter how hard-working, ambitious or clever she is, her arc is simply impossible and unbelievable for me. That's a bigger problem in terms of actual enjoyment of the books that whether I think that her positive or negative traits prevail. Often we're not shown that Egwene is great, clever, brave etc. but we are told so, several times, in unambigous manner ("She's the greatest Amyrlin, she's so strong, so clever..."Thank you RJ, simply show me her deeds and allow me to form my own opinion whether she's great or not.)I think it is a writing thing, you should not tell the reader outright how he should see the character, it should follow from the story.

 

Some small points - she wasn't the only character who was enslaved or hurt. On the contrary, there are important characters whose fate was much worse. Second, Egwene is not changed very much from who she was in Two Rivers. You could see all the patters of behaviour already there, that's why I would say there was no actual growth in her character. She was simply boosted with powers and achievements, but her thought process has not really become any more enlightened or sophisticated, unfortunately. The best example is her talk with Nynaeve in TOM: "Breaking the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can seal the DO without taking that risk" (quote from memory). I feel tempted to ask: "You know that how, exactly, Egwene? What is the basis for your strong conviction? What facts, what knowledge are you using? Where is your data?" You would think that she would at least learn how to discern her own biases or intuitions from facts or reasonable assumptions bases on data, but it seems her thinking is still the same as in book one, based on unfounded convictions that she does not allow anyone to question.

[Rose]

PiotrekS, I think you just gave me an AHA! moment. I just realized why it is that I have a hard time understanding why people have such strong feelings about so many characters. I usually tend to just take them as they are, try to understand them and enjoy them, and then move on. It think it has everything to do with what the author intends. It's obvious that RJ didn't "hate" any of his characters, especially the "good" ones. He said that his favourite character was always whichever one he was writing at the time. Well, I think that's how I rend to read the story as well.

 

I don't look too much into the details, I don't ask myself questions, I just read the story he's giving me trying to see where he's trying to take me, and I go with that. He obviously didn't want Egwene to come off as... well, whatever everybody has against her, I can't really formulate it well myself. So I don't read her that way. Same as I never hated Faile, or Nynaeve, or Gawyn, or Tylin, or anybody else people have grudges against. Sure, they all have flaws, they all make mistakes, but hey, they're human, and they do good things as well, so I'm fine with it.

 

It's impressive though to see how you guys can be so passionate about these things. Maybe I'm not a real fan or something, I don't know :p

[Himiko]

Firstly, PiotrekS, I agree with pretty much everything you've said above.

 

Egwene seems to have time to plan how to get AS hooks into all the other channelers free of WT influence, but not even a moment to consider a plan to gateway in and save those who were kidnapped?

 

Why do a few of the anti-Egwene crowd always reference this like it was a bad thing. This was one of the more progressive WT reforms and will benefit all channeling groups in the long run. Egwene says flat out the WT can not continue as it has.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...If we try and hold too tightly to all of this we will either become tyrants or fools, depending on how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

I think the quote below proves a source of contention:

 

No Amys, Egwene thought, I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead.

 

Some people read this as "We'll be linked to each other by something that makes us want to be linked", and others read it as "We'll tie you to the WT, but we'll use lace so you don't realise you're being tied at first". Difference of interpretation, obviously if you read it as the first, it sounds lovely, and if you read it as the second, not so much.

 

I agree that uniting the channelers is a good step in the right direction, and will certainly be useful against the shadow. But- and this is a negative point for all involved- it shouldn't matter in the battle against the shadow who is "on top", and the superior force. Indeed, I personally don't think any of them should be. I think the fact that the AS get a lot more backlash from this scene, though, is the fact that they have had the most coverage in the series of all the groups, and much of that has been a pretty negative view of the organisation as a whole, especially compared to the Wise Ones- in other words "Why should these women be in charge of the channelling women, they suck!" Individual AS are quite well liked by the readers, but a lot of readers, judging by this forum, seem to dislike the AS as an overall organisation. That's my thoughts, anyway.

[Suttree]

I feel tempted to ask: "You know that how, exactly, Egwene? What is the basis for your strong conviction? What facts, what knowledge are you using? Where is your data?" You would think that she would at least learn how to discern her own biases or intuitions from facts or reasonable assumptions bases on data, but it seems her thinking is still the same as in book one, based on unfounded convictions that she does not allow anyone to question.

 

Something I find strange about this is we also have other quotes from Eggy, particularly one referring to Mat and if he actually is a good general where she says "it's unwise to assume cause you think you know"(not exact). Then we have this situation with the seals? Very inconsistent thought process...

[Guest PiotrekS]

PiotrekS, I think you just gave me an AHA! moment. I just realized why it is that I have a hard time understanding why people have such strong feelings about so many characters. I usually tend to just take them as they are, try to understand them and enjoy them, and then move on. It think it has everything to do with what the author intends. It's obvious that RJ didn't "hate" any of his characters, especially the "good" ones. He said that his favourite character was always whichever one he was writing at the time. Well, I think that's how I rend to read the story as well.

 

I don't look too much into the details, I don't ask myself questions, I just read the story he's giving me trying to see where he's trying to take me, and I go with that. He obviously didn't want Egwene to come off as... well, whatever everybody has against her, I can't really formulate it well myself. So I don't read her that way. Same as I never hated Faile, or Nynaeve, or Gawyn, or Tylin, or anybody else people have grudges against. Sure, they all have flaws, they all make mistakes, but hey, they're human, and they do good things as well, so I'm fine with it.

 

It's impressive though to see how you guys can be so passionate about these things. Maybe I'm not a real fan or something, I don't know :p

 

It's all fun, I'm aware these are all fictional characters and I'm not really foaming at the mouth when posting:smile: I just enjoy a good debate with wonderful people from Dragonmount - even if some of them can't judge certain characters objectively All in good fun, talking about books, discussing imaginary worlds - for me it is a way of relaxing and getting away from my everyday responsibilities.

 

Firstly, PiotrekS, I agree with pretty much everything you've said above.

 

Thanks!

I feel tempted to ask: "You know that how, exactly, Egwene? What is the basis for your strong conviction? What facts, what knowledge are you using? Where is your data?" You would think that she would at least learn how to discern her own biases or intuitions from facts or reasonable assumptions bases on data, but it seems her thinking is still the same as in book one, based on unfounded convictions that she does not allow anyone to question.

 

Something I find strange about this is we also have other quotes from Eggy, particularly one referring to Mat and if heactually is a good general where she says "it's unwise to assume cause you think you know"(not exact). Then we have this situation with the seals? Very inconsistent thought process...

 

Well, I guess no single character is always consistent. In book 1, all our TR heroes were often shown as thinking in stereotypes and urban myths (or rather village myths). Egwene is in this instance thinking in similar way, forming some idea and sticking to it, even though there are no real reasons to do so. According to her very limited knowledge, any of two options (break/ not break the Seals) could be equally beneficial/disastrous, because she has no means to know or even try to foresee (apart from the Dream, which is ambigous).It might be her instinctive reacion to Rand - she often argued with him in TR after all. Rand's behaviour in the Tower also did not help to make her really think instead of making a solemn decision after a two seconds of consideration. If he could explain it to Nynaeve, why not to Egwene? Unless he wanted to deliberately provoke her to oppose him, which I would not like.

[Xcorpyo001]

Firstly, PiotrekS, I agree with pretty much everything you've said above.

 

Egwene seems to have time to plan how to get AS hooks into all the other channelers free of WT influence, but not even a moment to consider a plan to gateway in and save those who were kidnapped?

 

Why do a few of the anti-Egwene crowd always reference this like it was a bad thing. This was one of the more progressive WT reforms and will benefit all channeling groups in the long run. Egwene says flat out the WT can not continue as it has.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...If we try and hold too tightly to all of this we will either become tyrants or fools, depending on how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

I think the quote below proves a source of contention:

 

No Amys, Egwene thought, I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead.

 

Some people read this as "We'll be linked to each other by something that makes us want to be linked", and others read it as "We'll tie you to the WT, but we'll use lace so you don't realise you're being tied at first". Difference of interpretation, obviously if you read it as the first, it sounds lovely, and if you read it as the second, not so much.

 

 

Amys nodded. “This work you do is a good one so long as you do not presume to tie us in steel bands.”

No, Amys,Egwene thought.I will not tie you in bands of steel. I’ll use lace instead.

 

 

I don't see how you'll understand this as 'we'll be linked to each other as equals'

It's not 'us', is you, as in WO+WM.

Amys tells her that this student exchange program will be a good thing as long as the AS will not try to bind them to the WT by force, and Egwene thinks that she will not use force to do that, but bind them to the Tower in a more subtle way.

I think you have to like Egwene a lot to see it as a 'equal link between them'.

[Kahsm]

Firstly, PiotrekS, I agree with pretty much everything you've said above.

 

Egwene seems to have time to plan how to get AS hooks into all the other channelers free of WT influence, but not even a moment to consider a plan to gateway in and save those who were kidnapped?

 

Why do a few of the anti-Egwene crowd always reference this like it was a bad thing. This was one of the more progressive WT reforms and will benefit all channeling groups in the long run. Egwene says flat out the WT can not continue as it has.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...If we try and hold too tightly to all of this we will either become tyrants or fools, depending on how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

I think the quote below proves a source of contention:

 

No Amys, Egwene thought, I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead.

 

Some people read this as "We'll be linked to each other by something that makes us want to be linked", and others read it as "We'll tie you to the WT, but we'll use lace so you don't realise you're being tied at first". Difference of interpretation, obviously if you read it as the first, it sounds lovely, and if you read it as the second, not so much.

 

 

Amys nodded. “This work you do is a good one so long as you do not presume to tie us in steel bands.”

No, Amys,Egwene thought.I will not tie you in bands of steel. I’ll use lace instead.

 

 

I don't see how you'll understand this as 'we'll be linked to each other as equals'

It's not 'us', is you, as in WO+WM.

Amys tells her that this student exchange program will be a good thing as long as the AS will not try to bind them to the WT by force, and Egwene thinks that she will not use force to do that, but bind them to the Tower in a more subtle way.

I think you have to like Egwene a lot to see it as a 'equal link between them'.

 

I think you have to revile Egwene and want to spit and dance (at the same time) on her grave to see the non-equal point of view.

 

Well don't I sound combative and jerkish now.

 

But anyway, despite my caricature of your provocation, I do feel that way! See, you do too, you just don't want to admit it. Because you yourself can plainly see that Amys likes the idea Egwene has proposed. That's the lace. Without the exchange, all the channeling factions could just go their separate ways again. This is how Egwene is tying them together, and she tells the wise ones in TAR that she thinks the Aes Sedai could learn a lot from them as well. She regrets that Aes Sedai likely wouldn't accept being sent, so she makes do with sending accepted to the wise ones.

 

No, Egwene does not want them to all drift apart again, so she offered them a deal to keep them working together. They LIKE the deal (hence the comment about lace) and so they are bound. That's how it works, that's what it says.

[Suttree]

Firstly, PiotrekS, I agree with pretty much everything you've said above.

 

Egwene seems to have time to plan how to get AS hooks into all the other channelers free of WT influence, but not even a moment to consider a plan to gateway in and save those who were kidnapped?

 

Why do a few of the anti-Egwene crowd always reference this like it was a bad thing. This was one of the more progressive WT reforms and will benefit all channeling groups in the long run. Egwene says flat out the WT can not continue as it has.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...If we try and hold too tightly to all of this we will either become tyrants or fools, depending on how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

I think the quote below proves a source of contention:

 

No Amys, Egwene thought, I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead.

 

Some people read this as "We'll be linked to each other by something that makes us want to be linked", and others read it as "We'll tie you to the WT, but we'll use lace so you don't realise you're being tied at first". Difference of interpretation, obviously if you read it as the first, it sounds lovely, and if you read it as the second, not so much.

 

 

Amys nodded. “This work you do is a good one so long as you do not presume to tie us in steel bands.”

No, Amys,Egwene thought.I will not tie you in bands of steel. I’ll use lace instead.

 

 

I don't see how you'll understand this as 'we'll be linked to each other as equals'

It's not 'us', is you, as in WO+WM.

Amys tells her that this student exchange program will be a good thing as long as the AS will not try to bind them to the WT by force, and Egwene thinks that she will not use force to do that, but bind them to the Tower in a more subtle way.

I think you have to like Egwene a lot to see it as a 'equal link between them'.

 

 

It will benefit all the channeling groups and Randland in the long run. The deal is fair and will change AS for the better in relating to the outside world. Again if you don't think Sorilea and the Windfinders will be jockeying for control as well you are delusional. Egwene knows this hence the "play the best" comment.

[Xcorpyo001]

 

I think you have to revile Egwene and want to spit and dance (at the same time) on her grave to see the non-equal point of view.

 

Well don't I sound combative and jerkish now.

 

But anyway, despite my caricature of your provocation, I do feel that way! See, you do too, you just don't want to admit it. Because you yourself can plainly see that Amys likes the idea Egwene has proposed. That's the lace. Without the exchange, all the channeling factions could just go their separate ways again. This is how Egwene is tying them together, and she tells the wise ones in TAR that she thinks the Aes Sedai could learn a lot from them as well. She regrets that Aes Sedai likely wouldn't accept being sent, so she makes do with sending accepted to the wise ones.

 

No, Egwene does not want them to all drift apart again, so she offered them a deal to keep them working together. They LIKE the deal (hence the comment about lace) and so they are bound. That's how it works, that's what it says.

 

 

"I'll tie you up with chains of lace, not metal" is a statement of unity and equality? K, have it your way.

 

But I do have to explain something. I do not 'revile' the character. I revile this accusation . Honestly, I like the character, although I think it had the less growth since the first book, but I can live with that.

But I don't think she is the nicest person in the world. And she can't be, not since she joined the AS and became Amyrlin.

I dislike the way she was elected Amyrlin, with dozens of strange laws, everybody seems to dumb up when they are around her, she is adamant in her idea that people should not bow to Rand, but has no problem in people doing the same to her, even if they are the same age and have the same experience. (Now they don't have the same experience anymore.)

 

From my POV, she has a lot of similarities with Mierin, pre-Bore.

She was the first to love the Dragon, but chose power/AS.

She wants to learn all, to increase her power as much as she can, and strengthen the AS...Mierin wanted the same things(power, knowledge, stronger power source for the AS).

If the Bore was sealed, I think Egwene is the type of person that will jump at the chance to dig up a hole in the Pattern so the AS and thus the WT can have a more potent source of power.

 

At first, Egwene, besides the normal desire to became AS, wanted to help Rand, to be a buffer between the AS and him, to make sure the AS will help him in the Last Battle.

Now, she has the position to do just that, but all she wants now is to control Rand, to tell him what to do, to keep him under her control("I am the White Tower"), see if he's mad, and for him to kneel before her and kiss her ring, just like everybody else('no one turns his back on the Amyrlin Seat').

I don't think Rand ever asked her to bow before him while kings and nobles did so, not to mention the fact she was treating him like a idiot all the time. She was pissed he didn't ask permission to leave.

 

 

She wanted to change the White Tower and the AS, but the White Tower changed her. And this is what I do not like about her. She did an 180 and she doesn't even see it.

 

As a character, I have no problem with her. She makes me laugh on more than one occasion, and I enjoy many of her chapters, except the ones in which she 'tutors' the mighty AS at everything I can think of.

She is a good character, but not a very nice person, especially after her rise to power and the machinations she has to do to secure her position. And I don't think this is a vile crime.

[Kahsm]

 

I think you have to revile Egwene and want to spit and dance (at the same time) on her grave to see the non-equal point of view.

 

Well don't I sound combative and jerkish now.

 

But anyway, despite my caricature of your provocation, I do feel that way! See, you do too, you just don't want to admit it. Because you yourself can plainly see that Amys likes the idea Egwene has proposed. That's the lace. Without the exchange, all the channeling factions could just go their separate ways again. This is how Egwene is tying them together, and she tells the wise ones in TAR that she thinks the Aes Sedai could learn a lot from them as well. She regrets that Aes Sedai likely wouldn't accept being sent, so she makes do with sending accepted to the wise ones.

 

No, Egwene does not want them to all drift apart again, so she offered them a deal to keep them working together. They LIKE the deal (hence the comment about lace) and so they are bound. That's how it works, that's what it says.

 

 

"I'll tie you up with chains of lace, not metal" is a statement of unity and equality? K, have it your way.

 

But I do have to explain something. I do not 'revile' the character. I revile this accusation . Honestly, I like the character, although I think it had the less growth since the first book, but I can live with that.

But I don't think she is the nicest person in the world. And she can't be, not since she joined the AS and became Amyrlin.

I dislike the way she was elected Amyrlin, with dozens of strange laws, everybody seems to dumb up when they are around her, she is adamant in her idea that people should not bow to Rand, but has no problem in people doing the same to her, even if they are the same age and have the same experience. (Now they don't have the same experience anymore.)

 

From my POV, she has a lot of similarities with Mierin, pre-Bore.

She was the first to love the Dragon, but chose power/AS.

She wants to learn all, to increase her power as much as she can, and strengthen the AS...Mierin wanted the same things(power, knowledge, stronger power source for the AS).

If the Bore was sealed, I think Egwene is the type of person that will jump at the chance to dig up a hole in the Pattern so the AS and thus the WT can have a more potent source of power.

 

At first, Egwene, besides the normal desire to became AS, wanted to help Rand, to be a buffer between the AS and him, to make sure the AS will help him in the Last Battle.

Now, she has the position to do just that, but all she wants now is to control Rand, to tell him what to do, to keep him under her control("I am the White Tower"), see if he's mad, and for him to kneel before her and kiss her ring, just like everybody else('no one turns his back on the Amyrlin Seat').

I don't think Rand ever asked her to bow before him while kings and nobles did so, not to mention the fact she was treating him like a idiot all the time. She was pissed he didn't ask permission to leave.

 

 

She wanted to change the White Tower and the AS, but the White Tower changed her. And this is what I do not like about her. She did an 180 and she doesn't even see it.

 

As a character, I have no problem with her. She makes me laugh on more than one occasion, and I enjoy many of her chapters, except the ones in which she 'tutors' the mighty AS at everything I can think of.

She is a good character, but not a very nice person, especially after her rise to power and the machinations she has to do to secure her position. And I don't think this is a vile crime.

 

This is about 90% crap. Though i do see some similarities between her and Lanfear that doesn't mean her fate is sealed. She also has some differences and that matters. But lets get to the other 90%.

 

"No Amys, Egwene thought, I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead." Lets at least get the quote right.

 

So it's not CHAINS of lace, it's bands of lace, which could refer to a frilly ribbon tied around your wrist -- a band of lace. So while a chain has a hard and fast, unrelenting connotation as you suggest, luckly that's NOT AT ALL what Egwene said. So if you're going to misquote her then yes it looks bad. And don't say "well it means the same thing" because it doesn't. Chains has a negative connotation, bands does not have nearly the same connotation. Yes, Egwene wants them tied together, no one denies that. But using lace is a GOOD thing.

 

The difference is that Amys would probably be just fine if the factions separated and never spoke again. Egwene does not want that. So she's tying them together, in a mutually beneficial fashion, to ensure that doesn't happen. Is that against Amy's will? No, she says she doesn't want to be forced into it. Is she being forced? Is she? No, she's quite capable and able to say no if she didn't like the deal.

 

Now...

 

It seems to me Egwene is very much of Moirain's PoV of letting him lose but guiding him. Disagreeing with Rand is not controlling him. Moiraine disagreed with him all the time, she didn't control him at all. And I think Egwene already has protected Rand simply by becoming the Amyrlin seat. Do you think Elaida's plans would be similar? Not likely. And Rand knows it, that's why he said "I see you've done your part." When he sees her with the stole and staff. So I don't see how the white tower made her do a 180. She's can't change every bad habit of a 2000+ year old institution overnight. She has made good steps. She tells the wise one's 'I'm the leader of those fools' (loosely quoted), so it's not like she doesn't see the problems.

[Elan Tedronai]

Egwene is merin now? Well the debate certainly took an interesting course. All that's left is for Egwene to betray the forces of light in AMOL and kill rand al thor in the process. Then we would have the ultimate talking point of the series.

[SuperFade]

It seems Kael will defend Egwene to the death.

[MasterAblar]

 

I think you have to revile Egwene and want to spit and dance (at the same time) on her grave to see the non-equal point of view.

 

Well don't I sound combative and jerkish now.

 

But anyway, despite my caricature of your provocation, I do feel that way! See, you do too, you just don't want to admit it. Because you yourself can plainly see that Amys likes the idea Egwene has proposed. That's the lace. Without the exchange, all the channeling factions could just go their separate ways again. This is how Egwene is tying them together, and she tells the wise ones in TAR that she thinks the Aes Sedai could learn a lot from them as well. She regrets that Aes Sedai likely wouldn't accept being sent, so she makes do with sending accepted to the wise ones.

 

No, Egwene does not want them to all drift apart again, so she offered them a deal to keep them working together. They LIKE the deal (hence the comment about lace) and so they are bound. That's how it works, that's what it says.

 

 

"I'll tie you up with chains of lace, not metal" is a statement of unity and equality? K, have it your way.

 

But I do have to explain something. I do not 'revile' the character. I revile this accusation . Honestly, I like the character, although I think it had the less growth since the first book, but I can live with that.

But I don't think she is the nicest person in the world. And she can't be, not since she joined the AS and became Amyrlin.

I dislike the way she was elected Amyrlin, with dozens of strange laws, everybody seems to dumb up when they are around her, she is adamant in her idea that people should not bow to Rand, but has no problem in people doing the same to her, even if they are the same age and have the same experience. (Now they don't have the same experience anymore.)

 

From my POV, she has a lot of similarities with Mierin, pre-Bore.

She was the first to love the Dragon, but chose power/AS.

She wants to learn all, to increase her power as much as she can, and strengthen the AS...Mierin wanted the same things(power, knowledge, stronger power source for the AS).

If the Bore was sealed, I think Egwene is the type of person that will jump at the chance to dig up a hole in the Pattern so the AS and thus the WT can have a more potent source of power.

 

At first, Egwene, besides the normal desire to became AS, wanted to help Rand, to be a buffer between the AS and him, to make sure the AS will help him in the Last Battle.

Now, she has the position to do just that, but all she wants now is to control Rand, to tell him what to do, to keep him under her control("I am the White Tower"), see if he's mad, and for him to kneel before her and kiss her ring, just like everybody else('no one turns his back on the Amyrlin Seat').

I don't think Rand ever asked her to bow before him while kings and nobles did so, not to mention the fact she was treating him like a idiot all the time. She was pissed he didn't ask permission to leave.

 

 

She wanted to change the White Tower and the AS, but the White Tower changed her. And this is what I do not like about her. She did an 180 and she doesn't even see it.

 

As a character, I have no problem with her. She makes me laugh on more than one occasion, and I enjoy many of her chapters, except the ones in which she 'tutors' the mighty AS at everything I can think of.

She is a good character, but not a very nice person, especially after her rise to power and the machinations she has to do to secure her position. And I don't think this is a vile crime.

 

This is about 90% crap. Though i do see some similarities between her and Lanfear that doesn't mean her fate is sealed. She also has some differences and that matters. But lets get to the other 90%.

 

"No Amys, Egwene thought, I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead." Lets at least get the quote right.

 

So it's not CHAINS of lace, it's bands of lace, which could refer to a frilly ribbon tied around your wrist -- a band of lace. So while a chain has a hard and fast, unrelenting connotation as you suggest, luckly that's NOT AT ALL what Egwene said. So if you're going to misquote her then yes it looks bad. And don't say "well it means the same thing" because it doesn't. Chains has a negative connotation, bands does not have nearly the same connotation. Yes, Egwene wants them tied together, no one denies that. But using lace is a GOOD thing.

 

The difference is that Amys would probably be just fine if the factions separated and never spoke again. Egwene does not want that. So she's tying them together, in a mutually beneficial fashion, to ensure that doesn't happen. Is that against Amy's will? No, she says she doesn't want to be forced into it. Is she being forced? Is she? No, she's quite capable and able to say no if she didn't like the deal.

 

Now...

 

It seems to me Egwene is very much of Moirain's PoV of letting him lose but guiding him. Disagreeing with Rand is not controlling him. Moiraine disagreed with him all the time, she didn't control him at all. And I think Egwene already has protected Rand simply by becoming the Amyrlin seat. Do you think Elaida's plans would be similar? Not likely. And Rand knows it, that's why he said "I see you've done your part." When he sees her with the stole and staff. So I don't see how the white tower made her do a 180. She's can't change every bad habit of a 2000+ year old institution overnight. She has made good steps. She tells the wise one's 'I'm the leader of those fools' (loosely quoted), so it's not like she doesn't see the problems.

 

The very fact that there is such contention about what Egwene meant with that thought, is sort evidence that it's a rather ambiguous thought. Besides Egwene does say later on that they will have to play the game best if they want to be the dominant force, just as the other two groups will do. However it's clear that Egwene isn't going to be heavy handed and try and simply utterly dominate the other groups to gain authority over them. But, I think she will definitely try to gain influence over the other two groups. We just don't hear what the Wise Ones and Windfinders are thinking.

 

Egwene is merin now? Well the debate certainly took an interesting course. All that's left is for Egwene to betray the forces of light in AMOL and kill rand al thor in the process. Then we would have the ultimate talking point of the series.

 

He didn't say she was Mierin, just that there are some similarities between them. Which, frankly, there are, at least pre-bore. Though I think Egwene is less powerhungry then Mierin was then, and definitely a better person.

[Xcorpyo001]

This is about 90% crap. Though i do see some similarities between her and Lanfear that doesn't mean her fate is sealed. She also has some differences and that matters. But lets get to the other 90%.

 

"No Amys, Egwene thought, I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead." Lets at least get the quote right.

 

So it's not CHAINS of lace, it's bands of lace, which could refer to a frilly ribbon tied around your wrist -- a band of lace. So while a chain has a hard and fast, unrelenting connotation as you suggest, luckly that's NOT AT ALL what Egwene said. So if you're going to misquote her then yes it looks bad. And don't say "well it means the same thing" because it doesn't. Chains has a negative connotation, bands does not have nearly the same connotation. Yes, Egwene wants them tied together, no one denies that. But using lace is a GOOD thing.

 

The difference is that Amys would probably be just fine if the factions separated and never spoke again. Egwene does not want that. So she's tying them together, in a mutually beneficial fashion, to ensure that doesn't happen. Is that against Amy's will? No, she says she doesn't want to be forced into it. Is she being forced? Is she? No, she's quite capable and able to say no if she didn't like the deal.

 

Now...

 

It seems to me Egwene is very much of Moirain's PoV of letting him lose but guiding him. Disagreeing with Rand is not controlling him. Moiraine disagreed with him all the time, she didn't control him at all. And I think Egwene already has protected Rand simply by becoming the Amyrlin seat. Do you think Elaida's plans would be similar? Not likely. And Rand knows it, that's why he said "I see you've done your part." When he sees her with the stole and staff. So I don't see how the white tower made her do a 180. She's can't change every bad habit of a 2000+ year old institution overnight. She has made good steps. She tells the wise one's 'I'm the leader of those fools' (loosely quoted), so it's not like she doesn't see the problems.

 

 

I did not said Lanfear, I said Mierin, pre-Bore. There is a difference there. And I never said her faith is sealed, or that she'll do everything she did. God, I hope not.

 

So, if they are tied up to the WT with anything else other than iron chains, it's ok.

I understand that from your point of view, this is cool. I see it a little different. And I do have a right to do so, as well as you do.

Amys: I don't want to be tied up with X.

Egwene: I will not tie you up with X, I will tie you up with Y

The tying up is still there, even if it's iron, cuendilar, lace, air etc.

 

 

Moiraine didn't forced him into anything?!? LOL. Maybe you didn't saw the iron chains, but the lace was there, especially in book 1 and the start of book 2.

Rand started to listen more to Moiraine when she became his equal or just his adviser. Egwnene will never play that part, because she sees her position as Amyrlin above anyone else, and she sees herself as the White Tower, and the WT does not bow to anyone.

"He will do as I say or he will feel my anger", "Don't turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat", etc...that's not advising, that's a pissing contest.

 

"You are an idiot, Rand" is not advising. She demands that he treats her as the Amyrlin, but she never returns the same, by calling him Lord Dragon, Lord of the Morning, etc.

I don't seem to remember any time when she showed him the respect he deserves. Calling him simply Rand, without the usual idiot, wool-head, etc, is the best she could do so far. There is still time.

Moiraine respected Rand, and told him that he grew, etc. Egwene never does that.

 

 

She's better than Elaida? Yes, you are right. But that is not so hard to achieve. 90% of the AS could achieve that.

Nynaeve did helped Rand, just as she planed to do right from the moment she joined them.

Since Egwene became Amyrlin(and before, by trying to play him in fighting the WT embassy), she did nothing to help Rand. On the other hand, the Salidar kept Elayne away from Caemlyn(pre-Bowl), she kept Mat and the Band, sent to bring Elayne back and take the Dragonsworn in hand, etc.

Please give me some examples of her helping Rand as Amyrlin or from Salidar, only 3 or 4, I won't need more than that.

[CrazyJP]

i think her attributes, accomplishments, and personal network make her the perfect amyrlin. the greastest of all time. she has a right to be a bit high handed