Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[Suttree]

I guess the point is that he at least legitimately knew what he was doing at that point.

Yeah, I assume that that's the case. Rand knew he could stop that incoming army with his skills and his power, without relying on the Pattern to come bail him out.

 

But you could also say it was destiny to integrate with LTT. It's not like Rand trained to achieve those skills, he received the memories as part of his destiny being the DR.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I guess the point is that he at least legitimately knew what he was doing at that point.

Yeah, I assume that that's the case. Rand knew he could stop that incoming army with his skills and his power, without relying on the Pattern to come bail him out.

 

But you could also say it was destiny to integrate with LTT. It's not like Rand trained to achieve those skills, he received the memories as part of his destiny being the DR.

 

You'right, but the point is what was in his head, whether he knew how to use Saidin consiously or not. ToM was the moment where he could say: "I know what I'm capable of, I know this, this and this weaves and they will be sufficient for the battle I'm going to fight". Since we're talking about being prepared to facing various dangers, I would say that was the moment when Rand was prepared to face OP battles. Before, he had to count that the Pattern would not allow him to loose, but he could not really plan anything with any rational probability.

 

For most of the series, the characters went into danger without knowledge which normally would be necessary for their survival. I argue that this kind of behaviour is so prevalent in WOT than it makes no sense to make poor Nynaeve suffer for it or to make Egwene gain points, while she isn't any better in that regard.

[Hopefire]

For most of the series, the characters went into danger without knowledge which normally would be necessary for their survival. I argue that this kind of behaviour is so prevalent in WOT than it makes no sense to make poor Nynaeve suffer for it or to make Egwene gain points, while she isn't any better in that regard.

In retrospect, that was a theme of Towers of Midnight, showing that the main characters was now fully independent, people who understood their own strengths and weaknesses and planned accordingly.

 

Rand at Maradon. Mat against the Gholum and going to the Tower. Perrin against Slayer and in rescuing the White Cloaks. In each case, the characters went in with all the skills they needed. They were all gambles, but the dice weighting wasn't due to the Pattern, it was due to the characters having learned, trained or prepared what they needed in order to win. Nynaeve's test was the Test itself, more personal, and of course she passed it thanks to her own strengths, not needing the Pattern to intervene and make things easier.

 

It's the same with Egwene. Her investigations found firm evidence that Mesaana was sneaking into the rooms of Aes Sedai to kill them. So, she set up an ambush that prevented the Forsaken from killing anyone else. Just like Perrin, Mat and Rand didn't need any Pattern-sent help that they hadn't already ensured would be on the field at the time, neither did Egwene need someone to show up and save her when she battled Mesaana.

[Ala Rubra]

It's the same with Egwene. Her investigations found firm evidence that Mesaana was sneaking into the rooms of Aes Sedai to kill them. So, she set up an ambush that prevented the Forsaken from killing anyone else. Just like Perrin, Mat and Rand didn't need any Pattern-sent help that they hadn't already ensured would be on the field at the time, neither did Egwene need someone to show up and save her when she battled Mesaana.

 

I must admit, I laughed at that.

 

Thanks for using humor to make my day a little brighter.

[Guest PiotrekS]

It's the same with Egwene. Her investigations found firm evidence that Mesaana was sneaking into the rooms of Aes Sedai to kill them. So, she set up an ambush that prevented the Forsaken from killing anyone else. Just like Perrin, Mat and Rand didn't need any Pattern-sent help that they hadn't already ensured would be on the field at the time, neither did Egwene need someone to show up and save her when she battled Mesaana.

 

And I laughed at that Some things never change...

[Xcorpyo001]

For most of the series, the characters went into danger without knowledge which normally would be necessary for their survival. I argue that this kind of behaviour is so prevalent in WOT than it makes no sense to make poor Nynaeve suffer for it or to make Egwene gain points, while she isn't any better in that regard.

In retrospect, that was a theme of Towers of Midnight, showing that the main characters was now fully independent, people who understood their own strengths and weaknesses and planned accordingly.

 

...........................

 

It's the same with Egwene. Her investigations found firm evidence that Mesaana was sneaking into the rooms of Aes Sedai to kill them. So, she set up an ambush that prevented the Forsaken from killing anyone else. Just like Perrin, Mat and Rand didn't need any Pattern-sent help that they hadn't already ensured would be on the field at the time, neither did Egwene need someone to show up and save her when she battled Mesaana.

 

 

Nice one. +1.

 

Anyway, what was this thread about? I forgot. Oh, yes. Egwene and the AS.

What do you think they could change/improve before the Final Battle? I mean small changes, nothing to fancy, but something to increase their efficiency and usefulness.

 

First thing, I think Egwene and the AS should start using Travelling for more than small trips to Caemlyn. It seems that the main reason they discovered this lost talent is that they had to pass it on to the Seachan.

Using sisters that can Travel to replace the eyes-and-ears network will be the first step. knowing the situation in the field should be their first priority, especially since they seem to think that they will lead the fight against the Shadow.

 

Changing the Ajahs.

They don't do it anymore, like they used to do it in the AoL, but in the incoming fights, the Green and Yellow Ajah will have priority.

So anyone who can fight properly should be assigned for a time to the Green, the ones that can heal weel to the Yellow, and the rest to both, for helping in circles, under the supervision of a Healer/Fighter.

This can be only for the duration of the fights, and at the end they can return to their own Ajahs.

 

Maybe they can increase the number of Warders, so any AS can have more than one, even the reds.

 

 

Start researching the Bore, seals and everything related to it with every single available sister. Rand told Egwene that she should plan, but until now, she just planned how to empty every country of all their troops and how to stop Rand.

We know that the Seachan will probably attack the WT. Caemlyn is being raided by Trollocs. Cairhien also has a waygate inside the walls, as do Tar Valon. The BT is also heading to a fight, Murandy will probably attack Illian or Andor, red veiled Aiel with filed teeth are attacking only the Creator knows what, etc.

Not the best time to summon all the troops of Randland on a camping trip in the middle of nowhere, just to win a pissing contest. I see a lot of gateways in the future.

[Sharaman]

Small circles that interact with each other. Say organise the WT into squads of 9 AS.

One circle of three to attack and another circle of three to defend while a third circle of three stays in reserve and looks for targets of opportunity/ uses Gates/ puts up mist of mirrors, shields, etc.

Would take care of most channeler-based battle situations.

Especially against Ashaman who can't link easily.

[randsc]

For most of the series, the characters went into danger without knowledge which normally would be necessary for their survival. I argue that this kind of behaviour is so prevalent in WOT than it makes no sense to make poor Nynaeve suffer for it or to make Egwene gain points, while she isn't any better in that regard.

In retrospect, that was a theme of Towers of Midnight, showing that the main characters was now fully independent, people who understood their own strengths and weaknesses and planned accordingly.

 

Rand at Maradon. Mat against the Gholum and going to the Tower. Perrin against Slayer and in rescuing the White Cloaks. In each case, the characters went in with all the skills they needed. They were all gambles, but the dice weighting wasn't due to the Pattern, it was due to the characters having learned, trained or prepared what they needed in order to win. Nynaeve's test was the Test itself, more personal, and of course she passed it thanks to her own strengths, not needing the Pattern to intervene and make things easier.

 

It's the same with Egwene. Her investigations found firm evidence that Mesaana was sneaking into the rooms of Aes Sedai to kill them. So, she set up an ambush that prevented the Forsaken from killing anyone else. Just like Perrin, Mat and Rand didn't need any Pattern-sent help that they hadn't already ensured would be on the field at the time, neither did Egwene need someone to show up and save her when she battled Mesaana.

[Elan Tedronai]

It's the same with Egwene. Her investigations found firm evidence that Mesaana was sneaking into the rooms of Aes Sedai to kill them. So, she set up an ambush that prevented the Forsaken from killing anyone else. Just like Perrin, Mat and Rand didn't need any Pattern-sent help that they hadn't already ensured would be on the field at the time, neither did Egwene need someone to show up and save her when she battled Mesaana.

 

And I laughed at that Some things never change...

 

 

to be fair to egwene, she's not the only one who miscalculated in a battle

 

case in point the rand/rahvin and rand/sammael fight.

[MasterAblar]

It's the same with Egwene. Her investigations found firm evidence that Mesaana was sneaking into the rooms of Aes Sedai to kill them. So, she set up an ambush that prevented the Forsaken from killing anyone else. Just like Perrin, Mat and Rand didn't need any Pattern-sent help that they hadn't already ensured would be on the field at the time, neither did Egwene need someone to show up and save her when she battled Mesaana.

 

And I laughed at that Some things never change...

 

 

to be fair to egwene, she's not the only one who miscalculated in a battle

 

case in point the rand/rahvin and rand/sammael fight.

 

True, in a lot of Rand's fights he's had someone else help him. It's also evident that despite the fact that both Sammael and Rahvin lost, they both had the upper hand against Rand until someone else intervened. To me it was bad luck more than incompetence that made them lose .

[Guest PiotrekS]

It's the same with Egwene. Her investigations found firm evidence that Mesaana was sneaking into the rooms of Aes Sedai to kill them. So, she set up an ambush that prevented the Forsaken from killing anyone else. Just like Perrin, Mat and Rand didn't need any Pattern-sent help that they hadn't already ensured would be on the field at the time, neither did Egwene need someone to show up and save her when she battled Mesaana.

 

And I laughed at that Some things never change...

 

 

to be fair to egwene, she's not the only one who miscalculated in a battle

 

case in point the rand/rahvin and rand/sammael fight.

 

True, in a lot of Rand's fights he's had someone else help him. It's also evident that despite the fact that both Sammael and Rahvin lost, they both had the upper hand against Rand until someone else intervened. To me it was bad luck more than incompetence that made them lose .

 

Of course, I absolutely agree. This is why I've said above that IMHO Maradon was the first battle when Rand was really in control. The same applies to other characters. Egwene was an exception only in TOM (where finally Rand, Mat and Perrin knew what they were doing) as shown in the amusing post by Hopefire. I think that it was caused probably more by the need to find something to do for Gawyn and finaly end his "to be with Egwene or not, sulk sulk" plotline than anything else.

 

My point is that Egwene is at least as reckless as Nynaeve, Elayne, Rand or Mat (before TOM), neither better nor worse in that particular regard.

[Suttree]

Of course, I absolutely agree. This is why I've said above that IMHO Maradon was the first battle when Rand was really in control. The same applies to other characters. Egwene was an exception only in TOM (where finally Rand, Mat and Perrin knew what they were doing) as shown in the amusing post by Hopefire. I think that it was caused probably more by the need to find something to do for Gawyn and finaly end his "to be with Egwene or not, sulk sulk" plotline than anything else.

 

No battle plan ever survives first contact. There will always be outside influences.

 

In knowing this though would you say Egwene wasn't in control when face to face in a room with a forsaken she dueled by herself and won using skill she trained for in Tar?

[Xcorpyo001]

Of course, I absolutely agree. This is why I've said above that IMHO Maradon was the first battle when Rand was really in control. The same applies to other characters. Egwene was an exception only in TOM (where finally Rand, Mat and Perrin knew what they were doing) as shown in the amusing post by Hopefire. I think that it was caused probably more by the need to find something to do for Gawyn and finaly end his "to be with Egwene or not, sulk sulk" plotline than anything else.

 

No battle plan ever survives first contact. There will always be outside influences.

 

In knowing this though would you say Egwene wasn't in control when face to face in a room with a forsaken she dueled by herself and won using skill she trained for in Tar?

 

The other characters managed to deal with the outside influences on their own.(in their last battles)

She was in 'control' because Mesanna was trapped there by Perrin and Gawyn was killing the Seachan invisible ninja.

How did she end up in that room with a Forsaken?

Her plan failed on every level.

-research on Mesanna...they believed she will not run if in danger - wrong

-they believed she will fall for the trap Egwene devised - wrong

-Egwene set up wards to warn her - they failed

-she thought the AS were killed by Mesanna and didn't prepared for the Seachan hit squad. - wrong again

 

And do not forget the arival of Gawyn and a second later Perrin(Gawin's gateway shuts down immediately), in that exact order. If Perrin arrived a second before, Gawyn would have been killed by the gateway. If two seconds before, Gawyn would have been forced to walk all the way to Tar Valon.

And Perrin chose that exact place in Tar Valon at the exact time to trap Mesanna after she began her attack, but before she wanted to retreat.

Not even Mat is that lucky, ever.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Of course, I absolutely agree. This is why I've said above that IMHO Maradon was the first battle when Rand was really in control. The same applies to other characters. Egwene was an exception only in TOM (where finally Rand, Mat and Perrin knew what they were doing) as shown in the amusing post by Hopefire. I think that it was caused probably more by the need to find something to do for Gawyn and finaly end his "to be with Egwene or not, sulk sulk" plotline than anything else.

 

No battle plan ever survives first contact. There will always be outside influences.

 

That's true, but in WOT usually there was no meanigful way even to prepare a battle plan, because the characters did not know their own abilities nor those of their adversaries.

 

In knowing this though would you say Egwene wasn't in control when face to face in a room with a forsaken she dueled by herself and won using skill she trained for in Tar?

 

I hate that scene (I'm the White Tower!You're an insect!Buahahaha!), but yes, she was in control in TAR. But she was totally unaware of the Bloodknife danger, which would result in her death and failure of the whole ambush if not for Gawyn, whose advice she had previously dismissed. So I can't really say she was in control of the whole battle - she was doing fine against one enemy, while being blind to the danger posed by another.

[Hopefire]

No battle plan ever survives first contact. There will always be outside influences.

 

In knowing this though would you say Egwene wasn't in control when face to face in a room with a forsaken she dueled by herself and won using skill she trained for in Tar?

Aiel Blademaster summed up most of the luck based aid that Egwene got against Mesaana, but the biggest one was left out.

 

A few weeks before, Shaidar Haran sexually assaulted/raped Mesaana.

 

Having that happen at the hands of a being that's been likened to the Dark One in the flesh would definitely cause post traumatic stress disorder. PTSD would severely limit Mesaana's abilities in TAR. Egwene nearly a lost a fight to a cripple. It's every bit as much of a case of the Pattern to the rescue as Rand against Ishamael every time they fought, Rand against Rhavin, Rand against Lanfear, Rand against Be'lal, Rand against Asmodean, and Rand against Sammael.

 

Egwene definitely made a strong effort at bringing together everything she needed. Her strengths at organizing were on display, and it is a strength of hers. What was also on display in the event were her negative qualities, primarily her reluctance to take advice from a source that has a different perspective on events. Had she listened to Gawyn regarding how the murderers actions were inconsistent with Mesaana's probable means, she might have done something like put veiled Warders in her rooms, just in case he might be right. Had she followed Nynaeve's advice and asked Rand if there was anything he knew or could do to help, things in TAR may potentially not have been cut so close - it's impossible to know for sure one way or another, but it's unlikely that additional knowledge would have hurt.

[Xcorpyo001]

No battle plan ever survives first contact. There will always be outside influences.

 

In knowing this though would you say Egwene wasn't in control when face to face in a room with a forsaken she dueled by herself and won using skill she trained for in Tar?

Aiel Blademaster summed up most of the luck based aid that Egwene got against Mesaana, but the biggest one was left out.

 

A few weeks before, Shaidar Haran sexually assaulted/raped Mesaana.

 

Having that happen at the hands of a being that's been likened to the Dark One in the flesh would definitely cause post traumatic stress disorder. PTSD would severely limit Mesaana's abilities in TAR. Egwene nearly a lost a fight to a cripple. It's every bit as much of a case of the Pattern to the rescue as Rand against Ishamael every time they fought, Rand against Rhavin, Rand against Lanfear, Rand against Be'lal, Rand against Asmodean, and Rand against Sammael.

 

Egwene definitely made a strong effort at bringing together everything she needed. Her strengths at organizing were on display, and it is a strength of hers. What was also on display in the event were her negative qualities, primarily her reluctance to take advice from a source that has a different perspective on events. Had she listened to Gawyn regarding how the murderers actions were inconsistent with Mesaana's probable means, she might have done something like put veiled Warders in her rooms, just in case he might be right. Had she followed Nynaeve's advice and asked Rand if there was anything he knew or could do to help, things in TAR may potentially not have been cut so close - it's impossible to know for sure one way or another, but it's unlikely that additional knowledge would have hurt.

 

 

I left it out because I didn't want Kael P. to loose time telling me that Nynaeve and Mesanna can't pull the victim card against Egwene or anyone else. Nightmare, rape, don't matter. They are big girls and can handle a little pressure.

It worked in her favor actually. She really wanted to get it right and not receive another 'visit' from SH.

[ptolemy99]

I have another question about what the AS are doing. Why haven't they made even the slightest attempt to rescue the captured Aes Sedai (excepting Elaida of course who should be fed to the fishes)?

[Durinax]

I have another question about what the AS are doing. Why haven't they made even the slightest attempt to rescue the captured Aes Sedai (excepting Elaida of course who should be fed to the fishes)?

because even egwene know that they are outgunned by teh seanchan

[MasterAblar]

No battle plan ever survives first contact. There will always be outside influences.

 

In knowing this though would you say Egwene wasn't in control when face to face in a room with a forsaken she dueled by herself and won using skill she trained for in Tar?

Aiel Blademaster summed up most of the luck based aid that Egwene got against Mesaana, but the biggest one was left out.

 

A few weeks before, Shaidar Haran sexually assaulted/raped Mesaana.

 

Having that happen at the hands of a being that's been likened to the Dark One in the flesh would definitely cause post traumatic stress disorder. PTSD would severely limit Mesaana's abilities in TAR. Egwene nearly a lost a fight to a cripple. It's every bit as much of a case of the Pattern to the rescue as Rand against Ishamael every time they fought, Rand against Rhavin, Rand against Lanfear, Rand against Be'lal, Rand against Asmodean, and Rand against Sammael.

 

Egwene definitely made a strong effort at bringing together everything she needed. Her strengths at organizing were on display, and it is a strength of hers. What was also on display in the event were her negative qualities, primarily her reluctance to take advice from a source that has a different perspective on events. Had she listened to Gawyn regarding how the murderers actions were inconsistent with Mesaana's probable means, she might have done something like put veiled Warders in her rooms, just in case he might be right. Had she followed Nynaeve's advice and asked Rand if there was anything he knew or could do to help, things in TAR may potentially not have been cut so close - it's impossible to know for sure one way or another, but it's unlikely that additional knowledge would have hurt.

 

Rand against Asmodean? I agree with all the others, but how did the pattern aid him there?

[ptolemy99]

So if the Aes Sedai can't even rescue their own, how did they ever expect to oversee the victory at TG? Egwene seems to have time to plan how to get AS hooks into all the other channelers free of WT influence, but not even a moment to consider a plan to gateway in and save those who were kidnapped? And wasn't Egwene collared once? She is fine with letting others live that life as long as she doesn't have to I guess.

[damandred]

After the attack Egwene had exhausted herself and was in no condition to plan a rescue. Traveling was not widely known among the tower AS.

 

But the biggest reason for no rescue was it was not convenient to the plot. So we can't really let it reflect on the AS though as I have said before in posts in the middle to late books the AS have looked stupider and stupider as the series as gone on.

[Hopefire]

Rand against Asmodean? I agree with all the others, but how did the pattern aid him there!

I guess that I take that one back. Having said that, the entire set of circumstance that led up to the battle was set up by the Pattern for Rand's benefit.

[Himiko]

As far as rescuing the other AS go, its simply not practical.

 

Bear in mind, that for all Egwene's firepower, and for all that she was saying afterwards about how she was a magnificent fighter called by the horn, and they wouldn't dare face her again, she, and the rest of the Tower, I'd suspect, know they are no match for the Seanchan in firepower. They know the Seanchan have collared many AS, to add to their existing forces. If they gateway'd in, many damane would sound the alarm. They'd have to be ready to fight, and to be effective in a fight (and bear in mind, this would not just be against a raiding force, this would be into the heart of the main Seanchan forces), they'd need a fair few AS, preferably strong ones, to link with, and possibly some angreal and sa'angreal, as Egwene used. They risk more sisters being killed or captured, even if they manage to defend themselves in a fight, they risk sa'angreal falling into the Seanchan's hands. Very few in the WT would be willing to risk it, and I think in this case, they've got it right.

 

Now, I agree it is a horrible thing to allow these women to be subjected to, however, whilst I'm no lover of Egwene by any means, I think with the Last Battle on the doorstep, to put themselves at risk like that (not to mention potentially depleting the Seanchan army, which will likely be an asset against the dark, though I doubt the WT is thinking of that aspect) would be foolish.

[Elan Tedronai]

If there is one thing dark rand missed it was vapourizing the slave mongers when he had the chance.

[Suttree]

I left it out because I didn't want Kael P. to loose time telling me that Nynaeve and Mesanna can't pull the victim card against Egwene or anyone else. Nightmare, rape, don't matter. They are big girls and can handle a little pressure.

 

So Egwene actually had her friend raped now? Come on Aiel, it was already bad enough, you have more than enough ammo to work with already without resorting to that.

 

Egwene seems to have time to plan how to get AS hooks into all the other channelers free of WT influence, but not even a moment to consider a plan to gateway in and save those who were kidnapped?

 

Why do a few of the anti-Egwene crowd always reference this like it was a bad thing. This was one of the more progressive WT reforms and will benefit all channeling groups in the long run. Egwene says flat out the WT can not continue as it has.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...If we try and hold too tightly to all of this we will either become tyrants or fools, depending on how successful we are. I accept neither title."