would you feel the same if genders were reversed?

[Suttree]

Unlike Nynaeve, Egwene is not an emotional person. She is, in many ways, all cold logic. She easily turns off any emotion she has toward anyone when it means getting the upper hand over them, exercising what she feels is her "rights" given to her by her position, or forcing her will on them (because she is always convinced she has the right answers). Once she finally stepped into her position without having to worry about any resistance, friends became tools to be used to further her status or expand her power base. It isn't about emotion or love with her, it's about her position.

 

Read your post right after I put down tPoD and this was fresh in my mind. So if she is all cold logic and friends are only to be used why does she have thoughts like...

 

tPoD "Stronger than Written Law"

Recently all her dreams about Mat were pale and full of pain, like shadows cast by nightmares, almost as though Mat himself were not quite real. That made her afraid for him, left behind in Ebou Dar, and gave her agonies of grief for sending him there, not to mention poor old Thom Merrilin.

 

Yeah no emotion there, Mat is obviously just another tool

 

It's funny because you actually have some valid points but when you exaggerate so much it's hard to take them seriously.

[lilltempest]

Unlike Nynaeve, Egwene is not an emotional person. She is, in many ways, all cold logic. She easily turns off any emotion she has toward anyone when it means getting the upper hand over them, exercising what she feels is her "rights" given to her by her position, or forcing her will on them (because she is always convinced she has the right answers). Once she finally stepped into her position without having to worry about any resistance, friends became tools to be used to further her status or expand her power base. It isn't about emotion or love with her, it's about her position.

 

Read your post right after I put down tPoD and this was fresh in my mind. So if she is all cold logic and friends are only to be used why does she have thoughts like...

 

tPoD "Stronger than Written Law"

Recently all her dreams about Mat were pale and full of pain, like shadows cast by nightmares, almost as though Mat himself were not quite real. That made her afraid for him, left behind in Ebou Dar, and gave her agonies of grief for sending him there, not to mention poor old Thom Merrilin.

 

Yeah no emotion there, Mat is obviously just another tool

 

It's funny because you actually have some valid points but when you exaggerate so much it's hard to take them seriously.

 

Perhaps you skimmed over the "without any resistance" part, indicating that I meant after she gained power over the united Tower. Your quote was prior to that event. ;-) Once she got control of the full Tower, she slipped into full on, 24-hour a day politician mode. I didn't say she showed no emotion before that; in fact, she showed emotion fairly often, usually anger or frustration (much like Nynaeve did before she began to grow emotionally), but also sadness (her tears over betraying Rand in the arches again and again). She even showed, on occasion, sympathy (in the beginning, she seemed to feel sorry for Rand when she first learned he could channel).

 

Edited to add: And, further proof you were selectively reading what I said, here's one of the quotes:

 

She easily turns off any emotion she has toward anyone when it means getting the upper hand over them, exercising what she feels is her "rights" given to her by her position, or forcing her will on them (because she is always convinced she has the right answers).

 

Even though what you added is before Egwene gained full control of a united Tower, it still doesn't disprove what I said above. She can turn off emotion when it suits her needs, and it's something that she herself does intentionally, as proven by her constant thoughts that she has to deal with Rand as the Amyrlin handling the Dragon Reborn, not Egwene talking to Rand. The only time she contradicts that is when she realizes she can use her connection to Rand to influence him that way, but she still chooses to deal with him in a queen/subject manner rather than the way a friend would speak to a friend. So don't hand me this crap that she doesn't treat her friends as tools - she did it to Mat in order to get control of the Band, she did it to Nynaeve in order to force Nynaeve into mindless subservience, she did it to Siuan, and she did it to Rand, all in the name of forcing them to her will. Whatever emotion she had/has for them is secondary to her position and always will be. With Nynaeve, since she has grown emotionally, the emotion she fells toward people always comes first. ...end edit

 

And, in the interest of being cordial, please remember that it is your OPINION that I "have valid points but blah blah blah". Others may feel differently (some, like Kael, that my points are complete crap because they disagree with them, and others that I have good points and am NOT "exaggerating" horribly). If your only interaction with me is to dismiss what I say and try to condescend to me, I don't see the point in you responding to me unless it's just so you can have an ego orgasm and act superior, which reminds me of Egwene...in which case, I will not bother responding to you at all from now on. ;-)

[Suttree]

Unlike Nynaeve, Egwene is not an emotional person. She is, in many ways, all cold logic. She easily turns off any emotion she has toward anyone when it means getting the upper hand over them, exercising what she feels is her "rights" given to her by her position, or forcing her will on them (because she is always convinced she has the right answers). Once she finally stepped into her position without having to worry about any resistance, friends became tools to be used to further her status or expand her power base. It isn't about emotion or love with her, it's about her position.

 

Read your post right after I put down tPoD and this was fresh in my mind. So if she is all cold logic and friends are only to be used why does she have thoughts like...

 

tPoD "Stronger than Written Law"

Recently all her dreams about Mat were pale and full of pain, like shadows cast by nightmares, almost as though Mat himself were not quite real. That made her afraid for him, left behind in Ebou Dar, and gave her agonies of grief for sending him there, not to mention poor old Thom Merrilin.

 

Yeah no emotion there, Mat is obviously just another tool

 

It's funny because you actually have some valid points but when you exaggerate so much it's hard to take them seriously.

 

Perhaps you skimmed over the "without any resistance" part, indicating that I meant after she gained power over the united Tower. Your quote was prior to that event. ;-) Once she got control of the full Tower, she slipped into full on, 24-hour a day politician mode. I didn't say she showed no emotion before that; in fact, she showed emotion fairly often, usually anger or frustration (much like Nynaeve did before she began to grow emotionally), but also sadness (her tears over betraying Rand in the arches again and again). She even showed, on occasion, sympathy (in the beginning, she seemed to feel sorry for Rand when she first learned he could channel).

 

And, in the interest of being cordial, please remember that it is your OPINION that I "have valid points but blah blah blah". Others may feel differently (some, like Kael, that my points are complete crap because they disagree with them, and others that I have good points and am NOT "exaggerating" horribly). If your only interaction with me is to dismiss what I say and try to condescend to me, I don't see the point in you responding to me unless it's just so you can have an ego orgasm and act superior, which reminds me of Egwene...in which case, I will not bother responding to you at all from now on. ;-)

 

Sorry guess I should have clarified...I think you make some very strong points but in just MY opinion(thought that goes without saying) some are a bit over the top. Especially in regards to being sympathetic to Nynaeve and exaggerating with Egwene. I brought up the quote because I took your post to mean since Egwene became Amrylin and was just pointing out that she does have internal thoughts where she cares deeply for her friends.

 

Before that you bring up the case with Rand and his channeling from early in the books. IIRC she was the only one of his friends that treated him with compassion and wasn't weirded out by the situation. I can see how since she has reunified the WT people would think there has been a shift in personality. I don't think it is as bad as advertised and I also think it is fairly believable given her age, responsibility, all that has gone and having TG just around the corner. It's kind of funny how often I end up defending Egwene considering she isn't even in my top five favs. If I had to make a list it would go...

 

1. Mat

2. Moiraine

3. Thom

4. Verin

5. Rand

 

Edit: I just read what you added. You said flat out "Egwene is not an emotional person", my quote shows that she is. In addition her inner thoughts show she doesn't view Mat as a tool. You cant argue with what is written, if all she cared about was using and the result she would not feel "agonies of grief". Not sure why being able to turn if off in times of crisis is a bad thing? As for things I think you exaggerate about, you mention Nynaeve and "mindless subservience". So mindless that she has no problem hiding where she is and ignoring summons? My point is you have more than enough ammo to work with with out using hyperbole and cheap theatrics.

[lilltempest]

Sorry I should have clarified...I think you make some very strong points but in just MY opinion some are a bit over the top. Especially in regards to being sympathetic to Nynaeve and exaggerating with Egwene. I brought up the quote because I took your post to mean since Egwene became Amrylin and was just pointing out that she does have internal thoughts where she cares deeply for her friends.

 

She has had them in the past, but when has she had them lately? She has never shown Nynaeve compassion or truly had caring thoughts for her, and the only kind thing I can think of that she has done for her was to send Lan to her when she learned Myrelle had him, and half of the reason she did that was to get control over Myrelle herself, so it was not 100% out of the goodness of her heart. With Mat, she had that dream and those thoughts after she had manipulated him into leaving his army behind so she could get him out of the way of her plans (instead of just asking him for help). The instances with her showing compassion and empathy to her friends since she has been on her rise to power - and, especially, after she got everything she wanted - are so scarce that I can't think of even one. And that's one of my biggest problems with her.

 

Before that you bring up the case with Rand his channeling from early in the books. IIRC she was the only one of his friends that treated him with compassion and wasn't weirded out by the situation.

 

Yet, after she handed him to Elayne like he was some vibrator she decided never to use (with no thought for whether he wanted Elayne or not), she went from showing him compassion to constantly being in his face. In the Waste, she was a complete twit to him. She jumped in his crap over Aviendha - when everyone, including Aviendha, knew it was her fault rather than his - she physically assaulted him with the One Power, she called him arrogant, decided to side with everyone (the Wise Ones, Moiraine, whoever) against him and proceeded to show a complete lack of respect, much less compassion, for him by attempting to force her way into his dreams - when she knew damn well that his wards on his dreams were to keep people out of them. She did agree to help him against Lanfear, which was good on her part, but after the way she treated him, how am I supposed to believe that it was for any other reason than to prove herself (which she was so determined to do from the beginning of the story)? You don't treat someone the way she treated Rand - and Nynaeve, for that matter - if you have fond feelings for them. You simply don't, not if you're a decent person.

 

And what she did to Nynaeve in TAR, in my opinion, was unforgivable, and that was the moment I went from seeing her as an annoying brat type character to a despicable excuse for a human being who needs someone to stomp her down so hard that that enormous ego of hers will never recover. She's a bully and a manipulator, and those are two qualities I absolutely loathe in people, especially if no one ever stands up to them (another reason I never liked Cadsuane, by the way).

 

I can see how since she has reunified the WT people would think there has been a shift in personality. I don't think it is as bad as advertised and I also think it is fairly believable given her age, all that has gone and with TG just around the corner. It's kind of funny how often I end up defending Egwene considering she isn't even in my top five favs. If I had to make a list it would go...

 

1. Mat

2. Moiraine

3. Thom

4. Verin

5. Rand

 

I'm honestly surprised by your list of favorites. I had the sneaking suspicion that you, much like most of the people who defend Egwene so vehemently, were a "Rand-hater".

 

As for her personality shift, I find it believable as well, though not for the reasons you listed. There are some parts of her character that are explained away by age (the whole "I know everything and everyone else is stupid for not listening to me!" is the 19 year old mentality to a tee), but I don't think the main shift in her personality - the cold, manipulative, calculating way she handles people was always there in her, as was some of the superiority complex. I could try to dissect her past to find a reason for it (youngest child of the most powerful man in the town, too spoiled, or perhaps just a trait she was born with and no one ever disabused her of the notion that she's the best at everything and is always perfect) but I honestly don't care enough to. I find her character shallow and ridiculously written, to the point where she's a caricature. RJ (and Brandon) seemed so determined to force her to be perfect, and to have no weaknesses or faults, that he turned her into a complete Mary Sue, and now she's unbelievable as well as unlikable (to me).

 

And, since you showed me yours, I'll show you mine...favorite characters, that is!

 

1. Rand

2. Nynaeve

3. Mat (though now I feel little but pity for him for being stuck with Tuon)

4. Logain

5. Moridin (simply because he is interesting)

[lilltempest]

Edit: I just read what you added. You said flat out "Egwene is not an emotional person", my quote shows that she is. In addition her inner thoughts show she doesn't view Mat as a tool. You cant argue with what is written, if all she cared about was using and the result she would not feel "agonies of grief". Not sure why being able to turn if off in times of crisis is a bad thing? As for things I think you exaggerate about, you mention Nynaeve and "mindless subservience". So mindless that she has no problem hiding where she is and ignoring summons? My point is you have more than enough ammo to work with with out using hyperbole and cheap theatrics.

 

So much for attempting to be cordial. Sorry I bothered above...

 

Egwene is NOT an emotional person, and your quote does not prove otherwise. An emotional person, as I see it, runs off emotion FIRST. She does not. She runs off cold thought first, emotion second. Is she capable of emotion? She was, before she gained full control of the Tower (which I have no said a total of three times), but now I don't think she is capable of that at all, unless you want to count cold anger, which she shows in full to the Seanchan (and thought about her cold rage, in fact) and to Rand (when he comes to the Tower). And, for that matter, to Nynaeve (when she demands that Nynaeve be mindlessly subservient in private as well as in public).

 

But whatever, I'm done with you. Be a condescending ass all you want in response to my posts from now on. I won't bother discussing it with you, since you don't care for any perspective but your own.

[dwn]

Nynaeve's arc is about letting go of childhood, for which her desperate clinging to Two Rivers simplicity is a metaphor. Again, nearly everyone has had to go through this sort of thing.

 

-- dwn

 

When Nynaeve left the Two Rivers she was about 25 and had been a Wisdom of the village for some years. Hardly a child or a teenager.

I don't think "childhood" is quite the right word for it, but even in the later books, Rand thinks Nynaeve sometimes acts like they'll all be returning to the Two Rivers someday soon. Only in TGS does she acknowledge that there's no longer a place for her in the Two Rivers, and she wouldn't have found that kind of life fulfilling anymore. So perhaps it could be described as Nynaeve learning to let go of the past and acknowledging that she and the others have changed.

 

I've always felt the reason Nynaeve clings to the idea of returning to the Two Rivers is due to her losing her parents. When she lost them, she was, for all intents and purposes, completely alone except for Mistress Barron. She was also only 14 years old at the time, which even using WoT standards, was very young. That would clearly, and understandably, affect her outlook on things, especially since she was just starting to "become" a woman, so to speak. She had to maintain the appearance of being strong, despite having no one in her life to give her the love, affection, and guidance (even though they don't want it!) that most people that age get. Since she had no family, she came to look at the Two Rivers as her "family".

 

Nynaeve's relative immaturity definitely stems from having to assume an adult role too fast. Not only did her parents die, but she also had to take over as village wisdom far younger than she should have, and had to fight for every scrap of authority due her position (very similar to Egwene becoming Amyrlin).

 

I maintain that childhood is the correct metaphor for her arc, though. Children tend to see things (like relationships) in simple and superficial ways, and part of becoming an adult involves learning to understand and accept nuance. Nynaeve's behaviour thoughout the early books is quite childish and that becomes ever more apparent as the other characters mature around her. Losing her braid in ToM was just like a child losing her security blanket.

 

Egwene, on the other hand, was born to be a politician. She craved knowledge (knowledge is power, after all), desire to have others praise and acknowledge her abilities and accomplishments (even at 9, it was "I am going to be the bestest water carrier ever!!), and control (she always hated being told what to do and never really followed orders all that well, and tends to find it "necessary" to break rules she believes others should follow). Unlike Nynaeve, Egwene is not an emotional person. She is, in many ways, all cold logic. She easily turns off any emotion she has toward anyone when it means getting the upper hand over them, exercising what she feels is her "rights" given to her by her position, or forcing her will on them (because she is always convinced she has the right answers). Once she finally stepped into her position without having to worry about any resistance, friends became tools to be used to further her status or expand her power base. It isn't about emotion or love with her, it's about her position. She makes these comments about "Egwene the woman" or "Egwene the Amyrlin" but we rarely see anything outside of "Egwene the Amyrlin", as though she is the epitome of that position. She is, in every respect, a politician and she loves every second of it.

 

I think that illustrates the point I was trying to make about Egwene's role being about education and career. I enjoy seeing her adapt to changing career roles and struggling to deal with the ramifications of political authority. Her acknowledgement of the separation of 'Egwene' from 'The Amyrilin' shows that she's developed a very mature sense of identity--and how a career or position can threaten to overshadow and consume the person. For me, this makes her sympathetic and fascinating. Yet unless a reader has experienced that sort of ambition and advancement in his/her own life, Egwene can come across as cold and uninteresting (and apparently despicable).

 

-- dwn

[Suttree]

Edit: I just read what you added. You said flat out "Egwene is not an emotional person", my quote shows that she is. In addition her inner thoughts show she doesn't view Mat as a tool. You cant argue with what is written, if all she cared about was using and the result she would not feel "agonies of grief". Not sure why being able to turn if off in times of crisis is a bad thing? As for things I think you exaggerate about, you mention Nynaeve and "mindless subservience". So mindless that she has no problem hiding where she is and ignoring summons? My point is you have more than enough ammo to work with with out using hyperbole and cheap theatrics.

 

So much for attempting to be cordial. Sorry I bothered above...

 

Egwene is NOT an emotional person, and your quote does not prove otherwise. An emotional person, as I see it, runs off emotion FIRST. She does not. She runs off cold thought first, emotion second. Is she capable of emotion? She was, before she gained full control of the Tower (which I have no said a total of three times), but now I don't think she is capable of that at all, unless you want to count cold anger, which she shows in full to the Seanchan (and thought about her cold rage, in fact) and to Rand (when he comes to the Tower). And, for that matter, to Nynaeve (when she demands that Nynaeve be mindlessly subservient in private as well as in public).

 

But whatever, I'm done with you. Be a condescending ass all you want in response to my posts from now on. I won't bother discussing it with you, since you don't care for any perspective but your own.

 

Why are you so defensive? Not sure how saying you make some good points and then pointing out where I think you dramatically exaggerate and are wrong is condescending? After all it's just my opinion...honestly wans't trying to make you upset. I apologize if it came across in a way I didn't intend.

 

As for the emotional part it is my belief that someone who is not an emotional person wouldn't really ever feel "agonies of grief" over a friend in possible trouble. His fate is unknown and she is worried about him which also shows that she thinks of him as more than a tool. I do understand you are saying she has changed since the WT unified which I have made a mention of earlier posts as well.

 

Edit: Wanted to add I find it interesting that you like Nynaeve so much considering she was the quintessential bully for a good part of the series. Although I think I recall you saying you enjoyed her growth away from that in another thread?

[dwn]

No, I can't ever feel comfortable with the way Tylin treats Mat. It's rape from the beginning, and the way she comtinued to belittle him is just disgusting. As a matter of fact, in my reread of the series, it's one of the things that I feel most upset about. Had it happened in RL, she would have spent a good number of years in prison, at least in Sweden.

 

I think one of the reasons I react even more this time, is the number of cases the recent years where men have kept young women locked up as sex-slaves. Tje girl in Austria for example. The parallell is just too close for me. Taking command of another person, denying them their free will and making them into a tool for your own pleasure is simply revolting. Even if Mat enjoys the moments in bed with Tylin, that is no excuse. Even the girl in Austria formed a strong bond to the man that kept her prisoner, and was actually sad when he died, because "he was the person closest to her" as she put it.

 

What you describe parallels how the damane and some da'covale are treated, which is wildly different from how the Mat/Tylin relationship develops. Tylin doesn't curtail Mat's movements or activity except in "playful" ways (hiding his clothes, instructing servants to refuse him food), doesn't try to break or alter his personality, and lets him go immediately when he actually decides to leave. Heck, it's strongly implied that Lan and Nynaeve have a bit of that going on in their relationship.

 

-- dwn

[lilltempest]

Nynaeve's relative immaturity definitely stems from having to assume an adult role too fast. Not only did her parents die, but she also had to take over as village wisdom far younger than she should have, and had to fight for every scrap of authority due her position (very similar to Egwene becoming Amyrlin).

 

I maintain that childhood is the correct metaphor for her arc, though. Children tend to see things (like relationships) in simple and superficial ways, and part of becoming an adult involves learning to understand and accept nuance. Nynaeve's behaviour thoughout the early books is quite childish and that becomes ever more apparent as the other characters mature around her. Losing her braid in ToM was just like a child losing her security blanket.

 

Until she left with Rand in WH, I really didn't see her as any more childish than anyone around her. All of the characters had their childish qualities (Elayne's spoiled princess mentality, Egwene's rebellious teen manipulation and lying to get control, Rand avoiding the truth, Mat avoiding responsibility, Perrin behaving like a child that is bigger than the other kids and too afraid to do anything quickly, therefore coming off as "slow") and I don't think Nynaeve had more of them than the rest of them. I do like the comparison between Nyn's braid and a security blanket, lol. I don't agree with it (I see it more of her being forced out of a nervous tic than anything else, and being forced to actually deal with her emotions and expressing them instead of yanking on her braid because she doesn't know how to express herself any other way).

 

I think that illustrates the point I was trying to make about Egwene's role being about education and career. I enjoy seeing her adapt to changing career roles and struggling to deal with the ramifications of political authority. Her acknowledgement of the separation of 'Egwene' from 'The Amyrilin' shows that she's developed a very mature sense of identity--and how a career or position can threaten to overshadow and consume the person. For me, this makes her sympathetic and fascinating. Yet unless a reader has experienced that sort of ambition and advancement in his/her own life, Egwene can come across as cold and uninteresting (and apparently despicable).

 

-- dwn

 

Don't make assumptions about readers and why they view characters certain ways. I've experienced that type of ambition and I came damn close to becoming the same type of cold, despicable person Egwene is. I chose a different path, however (there's a reason people say that getting into politics can make you lose your soul) because I saw what I was becoming, and I focused my ambition toward a different career, at which I am quite successful and happy. Anyway...

 

I get her ambition. I also get the position she is in. But I'm not seeing this "sympathetic" character you describe, who is capable of having an identity outside of her position. In ToM she has serious problems separating "Egwene" from "The Amyrlin". She thinks about how they're different people, but she is losing the person and becoming nothing more than the position. Her treatment of Gawyn (insisting on blind obedience, whether in public or private), her treatment of Nynaeve (the exact same as Gawyn, only Nynaeve's complete and utter subservience to Egwene, without any ability to think, won't be a 24 hour a day job), her abusive behavior toward Siuan because Siuan did not mindlessly obey her, her manipulation of the Sea Folk and Wise Ones (the latter of which she claimed were her friends), and her attitude toward Rand (not wanting to break the seals is understandable, but her attitude toward him and thinking he should obey her, is disgusting) prove that much to me. If she intended to ever be "Egwene", there would be times when we actually saw a woman speaking to a friend or loved one instead of always seeing the Amyrlin speaking to a subject/slave/whatever. Yet, whenever we see her alone with people who are supposedly friends, she is ALWAYS the Amyrlin now. That is one more reasonI don't find her a sympathetic character at all.

[lilltempest]

Why are you so defensive? Not sure how saying you make some good points and then pointing out where I think you dramatically exaggerate and are wrong is condescending? After all it's just my opinion...honestly wans't trying to make you upset. I apologize if it came across in a way I didn't intend.

 

No problem, then. I'm sorry if I got defensive. On this particular subject, I've dealt with one too many people who resort to personal insults when I (or others) refuse to back off and not jump on the "Egwene is perfect!" band wagon. It's also one reason I get so...vehement...about making my point.

 

As for the emotional part it is my belief that someone who is not an emotional person wouldn't really ever feel "agonies of grief" over a friend in possible trouble. His fate is unknown and she is worried about him which also shows that she thinks of him as more than a tool. I do understand you are saying she has changed since the WT unified which I have made a mention of earlier posts as well.

 

When I say someone is not an emotional person, I mean that they are able to shut off their emotions for whatever reason (furthering their careers, gaining the upper hand, etc.), not that they are incapable of emotion. What you describe above is more a psychopath in my book than a non-emotional person. And I don't think Egwene is a psychopath!! (I do think she is somewhat narcissistic, however, and displays signs of having narcissistic personality disorder ).

 

Edit: Wanted to add I find it interesting that you like Nynaeve so much considering she was the quintessential bully for a good part of the series. Although I think I recall you saying you enjoyed her growth away from that in another thread?

 

Nynaeve did display signs of being a bully, but when people pushed back at her, she backed off. I think traveling with Elayne did her some good, really. She and Elayne became friends and learned to respect one another...once they got over the cat fights from being in close quarters! And yes, I did enjoy her growth. There were times when I was frustrated by her lack of a spine, in fact, such as when Egwene tortured her in TAR. There were other times when I wanted to smack her for being so stubborn. Thankfully, she has grown out of her bullying ways (for the most part...I think we all have that tendency in certain situations, we just have to recognize it and try to curtail it, which she has done, as proven by what she told Egwene after her test for the shawl), something that no other woman in the series shows signs of doing. The only other woman, other than Nynaeve, who doesn't still think all men are lobotomized penises with legs, is Birgitte. And she has her own bloody problems now, what with being Elayne's lapdog.

[JKN-SW]

No, I can't ever feel comfortable with the way Tylin treats Mat. It's rape from the beginning, and the way she comtinued to belittle him is just disgusting. As a matter of fact, in my reread of the series, it's one of the things that I feel most upset about. Had it happened in RL, she would have spent a good number of years in prison, at least in Sweden.

 

I think one of the reasons I react even more this time, is the number of cases the recent years where men have kept young women locked up as sex-slaves. Tje girl in Austria for example. The parallell is just too close for me. Taking command of another person, denying them their free will and making them into a tool for your own pleasure is simply revolting. Even if Mat enjoys the moments in bed with Tylin, that is no excuse. Even the girl in Austria formed a strong bond to the man that kept her prisoner, and was actually sad when he died, because "he was the person closest to her" as she put it.

 

What you describe parallels how the damane and some da'covale are treated, which is wildly different from how the Mat/Tylin relationship develops. Tylin doesn't curtail Mat's movements or activity except in "playful" ways (hiding his clothes, instructing servants to refuse him food), doesn't try to break or alter his personality, and lets him go immediately when he actually decides to leave. Heck, it's strongly implied that Lan and Nynaeve have a bit of that going on in their relationship.

 

-- dwn

 

I realize the parallell is a bit extreme, but I can't help if it comes to mind for me. I can't see anything playful in the relation between Tylin and Mat, for me it's all about her forcing him to be what she wants him to be, do what she wants him to do and use her full power to ensure it.

Also I can't agree on the "not trying to alter his personality". Clothes are a major part of your personality and how you and others see yourself. Dressing him up like doll, in the manner she likes, is for me a very serious try to alter him.

As for finally letting him go, I guess she wasn't prepared to go to the extreme measurese that would have been needed to keep him once he decided to go, and that is in her favour. But it does not, in my mind, make up for the way she treated him.

[Suttree]

her manipulation of the Sea Folk and Wise Ones (the latter of which she claimed were her friends),

 

This point really stands out to me because it highlights how people can respond to pieces of the story in vastly different ways. I'm assuming you are referring to the channeler summit in ToM?

 

I tend to think this is one of the better things she has done during her reign in attempting to reform the WT. All of these channeling groups have been trying to jockey for position and gain the upper hand in their interactions since they have come together. I don't think any of them would even bother to deny the fact if it came up. The pact is a way for them to break down mistrust and build understanding through the exchange program. Of course there will still be attempted manipulation from all sides but a few generations of intermingling should override any initial distrust the groups may have and it is a huge change for the better in how the groups will coexist.

[lilltempest]

her manipulation of the Sea Folk and Wise Ones (the latter of which she claimed were her friends),

 

This point really stands out to me because it highlights how people can respond to pieces of the story in vastly different ways. I'm assuming you are referring to the channeler summit in ToM?

 

I tend to think this is one of the better things she has done during her reign in attempting to reform the WT. All of these channeling groups have been trying to jockey for position and gain the upper hand in their interactions since they have come together. I don't think any of them would even bother to deny the fact if it came up. The pact is a way for them to break down mistrust and build understanding through the exchange program. Of course there will still be attempted manipulation from all sides but a few generations of intermingling should override any initial distrust the groups may have and it is a huge change for the better in how the groups will coexist.

 

If Egwene's purpose had actually been to ally with them - to acknowledge them and accept their existence with no intention of getting control of them (or submitting to them) - then I would have had no problem with it. One line, however, stuck out to me - the one where the Wise Ones say they were worried she would try to chain them to the Tower and she thinks, in what seems an ominous and despicable way, that no, she will use ribbons instead - and given Egwene's thoughts and history of manipulating people into agreeing to obey her, I think that the "alliance" is a bad thing because Egwene intends to use it to trick them into agreeing to obey her, just like she plans with the Kin.

 

Regardless of whether someone thinks Egwene is a good, well-intentioned person or not, when power becomes too centralized, the chances for tyranny and abuse of power increase exponentially. And, even if Egwene never intends to abuse the power she gains (this is patently false, as far as I'm concerned, since she is, in my opinion, already abusing the power she has), what of the person who follows? She may be in the position for seven or eight hundred years if she eventually decides the oaths are stupid and cause Aes Sedai to waste their lives, but she will die eventually, so what if the next person is what she would consider another Elaida, and instead of having one group out of several groups of channeling women obeying her, she has every channeling woman on earth? Egwene may think she is so perfect that having everyone in the world obeying the Amyrlin and every channeler under her control is a good thing, but I'm not so certain she'd feel the same way if someone else were Amyrlin. Then, she might actually think an alliance should be a bit more equal and not a facade to manipulate the others into falling under the Amyrlin's authority.

[dwn]

I think that illustrates the point I was trying to make about Egwene's role being about education and career. I enjoy seeing her adapt to changing career roles and struggling to deal with the ramifications of political authority. Her acknowledgement of the separation of 'Egwene' from 'The Amyrilin' shows that she's developed a very mature sense of identity--and how a career or position can threaten to overshadow and consume the person. For me, this makes her sympathetic and fascinating. Yet unless a reader has experienced that sort of ambition and advancement in his/her own life, Egwene can come across as cold and uninteresting (and apparently despicable).

 

Don't make assumptions about readers and why they view characters certain ways. I've experienced that type of ambition and I came damn close to becoming the same type of cold, despicable person Egwene is. I chose a different path, however (there's a reason people say that getting into politics can make you lose your soul) because I saw what I was becoming, and I focused my ambition toward a different career, at which I am quite successful and happy. Anyway...

 

The question posed in this thread is whether gender affects readers' reactions to the characters. My point is that character arc is likely an equal or greater factor in whether a particular character is loved or hated, and one that would still hold even if the genders were swapped. I'm not making any assumptions or judgements about the specifics of your life, but Rand's identity crisis and Mat's self-determination are, I suspect, more broadly appealing than Perrin's leadership qualms or Egwene's political careerism.

 

I get her ambition. I also get the position she is in. But I'm not seeing this "sympathetic" character you describe, who is capable of having an identity outside of her position. In ToM she has serious problems separating "Egwene" from "The Amyrlin". She thinks about how they're different people, but she is losing the person and becoming nothing more than the position. Her treatment of Gawyn (insisting on blind obedience, whether in public or private), her treatment of Nynaeve (the exact same as Gawyn, only Nynaeve's complete and utter subservience to Egwene, without any ability to think, won't be a 24 hour a day job), her abusive behavior toward Siuan because Siuan did not mindlessly obey her, her manipulation of the Sea Folk and Wise Ones (the latter of which she claimed were her friends), and her attitude toward Rand (not wanting to break the seals is understandable, but her attitude toward him and thinking he should obey her, is disgusting) prove that much to me. If she intended to ever be "Egwene", there would be times when we actually saw a woman speaking to a friend or loved one instead of always seeing the Amyrlin speaking to a subject/slave/whatever. Yet, whenever we see her alone with people who are supposedly friends, she is ALWAYS the Amyrlin now. That is one more reasonI don't find her a sympathetic character at all.

 

That constant danger of being overwhelmed by her public persona--and how it affects or damages personal relationships--is what makes her sympathetic. It's a major theme in Egwene's chapters in ToM.

 

-- dwn

[Stitch]

So.... about the genders of characters and how changing their gender might make me re-evaluate them....

 

I realise that I only really commented on maintaining the tone of the book and the nature of the relationships as well as my own preference for male leads, but on the characters suggested:

 

Rand - As I mention, I like male leads, so having rand as a female would make me less likely to read the series or to enjoy it as much, however if rand wasnt so much the focus of the series but had still done the things he had? I would have liked him more in the earlier and later books, but I may have liked him less in the middle where he was more Machiavellian (using people to achieve the outcomes). I believe that I may have found his continual questioning of the white tower positions and meddling to have been paranoid (at least until they brought up more information about how screwed up they are) and his unwillingness to harm men (currently women) to be bizarre, his relationship with the three lovely uhhh... guys would be a turn off for me also.

 

Egwene - I probably would have liked her just as much in the early books, then as she (sorry he) grew more Machiavellian I would have found him more interesting to read about, certainly not someone to like, but more engaging in a way.

 

Perrin - I would probably find this sort of personality rather different in a female, im not sure how this would go down, perhaps I might perceive such a quiet person to be more bookish, more withdrawn; I would have been more willing to understand the emotional state when pursuing Faile (though I would have been no more willing to count it acceptable). However the entire dynamic of the Faile/Perrin relationship I would be unable to find acceptable (I dont even now) as it would be abuse.

 

Cadsuane - I find her an enjoyable enough read most of the time, if she was a man I would still enjoy reading about her, perhaps slightly more (?), Im not sure. Though when she was conspiring with the wise ones to teach rand tears and laughter, if the genders were reversed there I might have found that creepy.

 

Logain - An interesting character, I would tackle the pre and post gentling separately really, of pre-gentling we know little except that he did some brutal things that resulted in many deaths. Personally I do not think that he has so far had too much impact (dont scream fangirls/fanboys this isnt the thread for it) so I would not really care one way or another about his gender.

[Kahsm]

I think that illustrates the point I was trying to make about Egwene's role being about education and career. I enjoy seeing her adapt to changing career roles and struggling to deal with the ramifications of political authority. Her acknowledgement of the separation of 'Egwene' from 'The Amyrilin' shows that she's developed a very mature sense of identity--and how a career or position can threaten to overshadow and consume the person. For me, this makes her sympathetic and fascinating. Yet unless a reader has experienced that sort of ambition and advancement in his/her own life, Egwene can come across as cold and uninteresting (and apparently despicable).

 

Don't make assumptions about readers and why they view characters certain ways. I've experienced that type of ambition and I came damn close to becoming the same type of cold, despicable person Egwene is. I chose a different path, however (there's a reason people say that getting into politics can make you lose your soul) because I saw what I was becoming, and I focused my ambition toward a different career, at which I am quite successful and happy. Anyway...

 

The question posed in this thread is whether gender affects readers' reactions to the characters. My point is that character arc is likely an equal or greater factor in whether a particular character is loved or hated, and one that would still hold even if the genders were swapped. I'm not making any assumptions or judgements about the specifics of your life, but Rand's identity crisis and Mat's self-determination are, I suspect, more broadly appealing than Perrin's leadership qualms or Egwene's political careerism.

 

I get her ambition. I also get the position she is in. But I'm not seeing this "sympathetic" character you describe, who is capable of having an identity outside of her position. In ToM she has serious problems separating "Egwene" from "The Amyrlin". She thinks about how they're different people, but she is losing the person and becoming nothing more than the position. Her treatment of Gawyn (insisting on blind obedience, whether in public or private), her treatment of Nynaeve (the exact same as Gawyn, only Nynaeve's complete and utter subservience to Egwene, without any ability to think, won't be a 24 hour a day job), her abusive behavior toward Siuan because Siuan did not mindlessly obey her, her manipulation of the Sea Folk and Wise Ones (the latter of which she claimed were her friends), and her attitude toward Rand (not wanting to break the seals is understandable, but her attitude toward him and thinking he should obey her, is disgusting) prove that much to me. If she intended to ever be "Egwene", there would be times when we actually saw a woman speaking to a friend or loved one instead of always seeing the Amyrlin speaking to a subject/slave/whatever. Yet, whenever we see her alone with people who are supposedly friends, she is ALWAYS the Amyrlin now. That is one more reasonI don't find her a sympathetic character at all.

 

That constant danger of being overwhelmed by her public persona--and how it affects or damages personal relationships--is what makes her sympathetic. It's a major theme in Egwene's chapters in ToM.

 

-- dwn

 

You are too reasonable and fair-handed for this place.

[dwn]

You are too reasonable and fair-handed for this place.

 

Thank you. Mostly it's a matter of keeping up a civil persona in public and suppressing my emotions when patience and logic are more appropriate.

 

-- dwn

[Elgee]

You are too reasonable and fair-handed for this place.

 

Thank you. Mostly it's a matter of keeping up a civil persona in public and suppressing my emotions when patience and logic are more appropriate.

 

-- dwn

 

Much like Egwene

 

Let me start off by saying that I don't think any of the characters in the series are perfect, and that the reason I dislike some could be entirely due to the fact that what I perceive as their negative traits are reflections of parts of my own personality which I dislike most.

 

What I find so fascinating about people's perceptions and responses to characters is not so much the male vs female ones (more easily explained), but that what they dislike about one character seems perfectly ok in another character, even of the same gender.

 

To illustrate, I'm going to quote 2 things liltempest posted (btw, I agree with you on some points, and disagree with you on others - I'm quoting you because you write coherently and summarise well):

 

... There are some parts of her character that are explained away by age (the whole "I know everything and everyone else is stupid for not listening to me!" ...

 

... when it means getting the upper hand over them, exercising what she feels is her "rights" given to her by her position, or forcing her will on them (because she is always convinced she has the right answers). ...

 

So ... who thinks the above is describing Nynaeve, and who thinks it's describing Egwene?

 

We see the same thing with The Wonder Girls vs Mat. Look especially at his arrival at Salidar, and their reactions to each other, but also subsequent interactions between TWG, Mat, and any other females in positions of power.

 

When the Wonder Girls refuse to believe that Mat is no longer the rapscallion but is in fact the General of a large and successful army and really does know his stuff, there are generally 2 responses:

"how can they be so ignorant and disbelieving?" and/or

"oh they're such bigoted beatches for treating him like he was still the young boy they knew, instead of treating him with the respect he now deserves?"

 

When Mat refuses to believe that the Wonder Girls are now a bit more growed up and in fact in positions of power, it's

"well how was he supposed to know?" and/or

"I like the fact that he treats Aes Sedai like any normal person, despite their position of power"

 

Both parties are doing the exact same thing, yet it's ok for the one but completely wrong for the other? I must confess that two of my favourite scenes in the books are the following:

 

1) Where Egwene finally gets the upper hand over Nynaeve by employing her own bullying tactics on her. My reasoning for favouring Egwene over Nynaeve (and yes, that is what it comes down to - both do exactly the same thing, but I like Egwene more than Nynaeve :P) is because Egwene actually THINKS about things and worries about if she does have it right, whereas Nynaeve just automatically assumes she knows better than ANYONE ELSE regardless of whether she actually does know jack sh*t about the matter. In my opinion, of course

 

2) Where Mat spanks Joline. She was acting like a spoilt child and that's what you do to spoilt children. In my opinion, of course

[David Selig]

One thing which I think it's quite relevant to the topic is the reaction among readers to the main WoT characters being ungrateful to those who help them or even save their lives. I've seen countless times the Supergirls get bashed for it, yet very, very rarely Rand and Mat had been criticised for the same, even though there are many examples when they did it. Moiraine was most often the one who didn't get the deserved gratitude from them (sometimes when she Healed them they were outright rude to her), but she was hardly the only one. Siuan and many other Aes Sedai were involved in Healing Mat from the dagger, but did he ever thank them? Of course not. Hell, even between the Rand and Mat themselves there were some such cases, like when Rand saved Mat in Rhuidean and of course got no thanks for that but complains that it was his fault.

 

Why is that nobody has a problem with that yet the Supergirls are bashed so much for very similar actions?

[dwn]

You are too reasonable and fair-handed for this place.

 

Thank you. Mostly it's a matter of keeping up a civil persona in public and suppressing my emotions when patience and logic are more appropriate.

 

-- dwn

 

Much like Egwene

 

Yes, I feel I must admit to some intentional snarkiness there.

 

[snip stuff that I don't need to quote but you should scroll up and read]

 

Both parties are doing the exact same thing, yet it's ok for the one but completely wrong for the other? I must confess that two of my favourite scenes in the books are the following:

 

1) Where Egwene finally gets the upper hand over Nynaeve by employing her own bullying tactics on her. My reasoning for favouring Egwene over Nynaeve (and yes, that is what it comes down to - both do exactly the same thing, but I like Egwene more than Nynaeve :P) is because Egwene actually THINKS about things and worries about if she does have it right, whereas Nynaeve just automatically assumes she knows better than ANYONE ELSE regardless of whether she actually does know jack sh*t about the matter. In my opinion, of course

 

2) Where Mat spanks Joline. She was acting like a spoilt child and that's what you do to spoilt children. In my opinion, of course

 

I like these scenes, too, and I think they work for a couple reasons. First, they're immediately humourous because they play against expectations. Second, the reactions of the involved parties during and after qualify the scenes as something other than simple bullying. Nynaeve avoids Egwene for ages, not out of fear, but out of embarrassment and confusion that Egwene has somehow surpassed her. Joline doesn't bear a grudge (quite the opposite), and Teslyn, Edesina and Setalle certainly thought Joline got what she deserved.

 

One thing which I think it's quite relevant to the topic is the reaction among readers to the main WoT characters being ungrateful to those who help them or even save their lives. I've seen countless times the Supergirls get bashed for it, yet very, very rarely Rand and Mat had been criticised for the same, even though there are many examples when they did it. Moiraine was most often the one who didn't get the deserved gratitude from them (sometimes when she Healed them they were outright rude to her), but she was hardly the only one. Siuan and many other Aes Sedai were involved in Healing Mat from the dagger, but did he ever thank them? Of course not. Hell, even between the Rand and Mat themselves there were some such cases, like when Rand saved Mat in Rhuidean and of course got no thanks for that but complains that it was his fault.

 

Why is that nobody has a problem with that yet the Supergirls are bashed so much for very similar actions?

 

I still think a large part of it comes down to how sympathetic you feel toward any given character's story arc. Also, we spend most of the early books with Rand, Mat and Perrin, so that too could make them easier to relate to. Personally, I find Rand's whininess in the early-to-mid books to be the most grating. Moiraine should become a Hero of the Horn just for putting up with him.

 

-- dwn

[Aiyen kin Leary]

How would I feel if the genders were reversed? Honestly about the same. There would definitely be some changes though.

 

Female Rand would remind me of Hermione. A skilled, powerful woman struggling to gain acceptance because of factors beyond her control (mudblood status/taint on saidar). Her refusal to harm men would seem more alien, but this is what, about 6000 years in the future? Things are going to be rather different.

 

Mat would be awesome. He's great already, imagining a beautiful woman with that personality... just great

 

Perrin would seem slightly odd. His personality strikes me as distictly masculine (not saying a woman couldn't act like he does, just that it would be less likely. Gender distinctions do occur on average, although there are plenty of exceptions and there's nothing wrong with "manly" women or "feminine" men).

 

Egwene would seem the same either way: a good person who has struggled against horrific circumstances and Aes Sedai politics with little preparation and done amazingly well. S/he does need to relax more though. Asserting authority is important when you're trying to be Amyrlin at age 20, but s/he's facing somewhat similar problems to pre-VoG Rand.

 

Min being a guy? Well, I rather like the story having a character who is kind, understanding, loving, smart and a beautiful women, so her becoming a him would be somewhat disappointing. Still lots of respect for the character though.

 

Just random thoughts...

[Joshua Hendrickson]

So why do so many people hate Faile so much? (I think Perrin's quest to rescue Faile from the Shaido is dragged out much too long and gets very dull, but that's not the same thing as hating her character.) The love between Perrin and Faile is strong and genuine. Yes, she acts like a jerk to Perrin during the early chapters of TSR, but that is because Perrin is wrong: wrong in his stupid stoic a-man's-gotta-do-etc. attitude, and wrong in his "strategy"--giving himself up to the Whitecloaks is morally indefensible. You have to stand up against self-righteous monsters like the Whitecloaks, or anyone who believes not only that they are absolutely right, but that anyone who doesn't join them is absolutely wrong. Faile's behavior isn't pleasant, but she is right. Ain't love grand?

 

Anyway, I just reread the scene in TSR where Faile breaks through Perrin's stoic front and gets him to bawl like a baby, grieving for his parents. In some ways, this is the single most moving scene in all of WOT, not only because of the tenderness that Faile shows and the vulnerability that Perrin reveals, but because here is real loss, the actual deaths of people that a main character cares about. The near total lack of such loss in WOT is one of its gravest flaws, but RJ begins (barely) to atone for that lack with this scene.

 

This is my fifth or so reading of WOT, and my old judgment stands: TSR is the best volume in the series by far.

[mackoY-kun]

I think i might know the "why" here. I've been thinking about this aspect of society for quite a bit, not in randland mind you, but irl.

 

You will probably hate;

1. people who think they know better than anybody else. And they are;

Egwene, Cadsuane, Faile, Nynaeve, Tuon/Fortuona, Valda and the Head Questionaire etc.

 

2. people who do things at no regard for the costs;

Perrin, Elaida, Gawyn, Valda and the Head Questionaire and maybe a few more others.

 

 

You will probably like;

1. people who will do what they think is right, but makes compromises;

Mat, Rand, Thom, Ituralde (Galad is an exception, because he doesn't compromise, but later he does, so "I" include him here)

 

Off-topic: I like Galad's new development, and ABSOLUTELY hate, Gawyn's. Such a tragic the things going on with his line of story, and he's the one that's "more skilled".

 

2. people who will do what they think is right because it's a duty;

Rand, Mat, Lan, Elyas, Thom etc.

 

hm... there might be no difference in 1 and 2.

[Mr Ares]

So why do so many people hate Faile so much?

Various reasons - her jealousy and her belief that Perrin should act like a Saldaean man, without explaining to him what she wants or making any compromise to his culture being the biggest. Of course, she largely seems to have grown out of both of them now. She's made her peace with Berelain (and Berelain has found someone new) and in TOM we see her agree to do things the TR way on their anniversary.

[yoniy0]

I don't know that switching the genders is practical, because it's not a coincidence that Egwene behaves one way and Rand another. Men and women don't think the same way, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

My answer to the original question is twofold. I do believe the reaction to RJ's characters is colored by their genders. While it's important to note that no protagonist character (perhaps excepting Faile and Gawyn) is truly disliked by the general fandom (as poll after poll prove), there is a strong element that dislikes several female protagonists (more notably Egwene, Elayne, Cadsuane and sometimes even Nynaeve), while the boys get much less hate. I do believe that gender plays a role in that, but I don't think that it's the only factor by any means.

Hence the second part of my answer. Both the boys and the girls suffer from a knee-jerk gender bias. In the boys' case it's mostly subconscious (their 'protection' of the women sometimes covers a deep-rooted belief that they cannot fend for themselves) where the girls seem fully aware of their biased feelings (though not of the fact that they're showing bias in the first place). Perhaps that's the reason some take more kindly to the boys? However, the girls do get away with unattractive behavior frequently because they are girls (I would personally be much less likely to forgive Elayne's patronizing of Mat, for example, coming from a man. On a woman, it's almost endearing at times), so I wouldn't be so quick to ask that they be judged the same as we would men.

 

Coming back to the beginning of my post, I forgive Rand for being bratty with Moiraine (partly because it was needed to convince her to let him make his own path in the beginning, and you can't fault him for not recognizing the exact moment when she was sold and he could rely on her fully) the same way I forgive Egwene for being bossy and condescending with Rand (partly because he needed to be kept in check, and you can't blame her for not realizing that he won't react well to that sort of thing from a childhood sweetheart); I forgive his rudeness to Rhuarc the same as I forgive her treatment of Siuan. They both make (mostly) believable persons, and their motives are (mostly) pure. They try to do their best in a tough situation, and they do it with kindness (when they can). That's why I like them both, end of the day. But, naturally, that doesn't mean I can't criticize their behavior.

 

PS

I used Rand and Egwene as examples only. What I said was meant to apply to Perrin, Mat, Nynaeve, Elayne and the others, as well.