would you feel the same if genders were reversed?

[XXX]

I think it is very interesting that Mystica did not place Rand al`Thor within her top 15 favorite characters. It really just boggles my mind, because he is the main protagonist of the WOT, without whom the Light has absolutely ZERO chance at defeating the Dark One.

 

 

If the name was Randa..I bet it would have been somewhere at the very top.

[Hybrid]

That was pretty uncalled for, given the premise of the thread and Mystica's post on her top 15 characters.

[Kahsm]

Let's be fair to randsc here. I think you're reacting more to the strength of his accusation (and by association Jon Paul's post) as opposed to the accusation itself.

 

From what I've been able to deduct, there seems to be an overwhelming tendency to judge the females in the books much harsher than the males. The amount of 'hate' threads going up is quite interesting. Especially in an age where we all pretend to stand for equality. It shows a rather interesting view of our 'real' opinions, burried underneath the politically correct facades.

 

I wonder how you all would feel if the genders of the characters were reversed. Not that I ever expect an honest answer to that, but it would be interesting to see.

 

Can you honestly look at this and not see that it is reasonable for someone to infer an accusation of sexism?

 

(Let me be clear on my position. I'm not offended by the premise. I think it's an interesting question. But I can see where randsc is coming from.)

 

I believe I said it would be best to clarify, because it's not something written. The way it reads is as a self reflection on the characters as another gender, and plenty of people have admitted to differences. And I'm also sure there are some who were not totally honest, with their answer or with themselves.

 

How you get from that to, "If you disagree with my character assessment of this particular character you are sexist", confuses me. And maybe she does think that, but that's not what's written. Furthermore, randsc has brought this up before in another thread where no one accused anyone of being sexist, but he comes in trying to suggest people are afraid they'll be branded sexist if they admit they hate Egwene, or something like that. It's just another example of him seeing what he wants to see to create controversy, and a perfectly innocent thread has paid for it.

 

Again, plenty of people who disagreed still managed to correct and answer.

[True Source Creator]

The female Mat would be....

 

 

 

 

...Birgitte.

[Aiel Heart]

..... Wow. Just wow.

 

Honestly everybody, you're acting like the kids I used to babysit.

 

Sometimes things are phased in ways that come across in ways that are not meant. Jumping to conclusions and getting defensive doesn't solve anything. So can we just move past that sentence and stop trying to tear each other down?

 

We're a community here, and the topic was started to generate discussion, not start a battle of the sexes. Now everybody calm down?

[Jon Paul]

I need to make a big sign to redirect people from my posts to Randsc's. He says everything I say so much better than I.

[Suttree]

I think it is very interesting that Mystica did not place Rand al`Thor within her top 15 favorite characters. It really just boggles my mind, because he is the main protagonist of the WOT, without whom the Light has absolutely ZERO chance at defeating the Dark One.

 

Very interesting in what way?

 

How does any of the above have bearing on whether someone would list Rand as one of their favorite characters?

[Jon Paul]

Honestly, I don't think I'll post anymore, I'll just PM him links to threads.

 

(Sorry, Blackberry won't allow me to edit posts).

[Vambram]

I think it is very interesting that Mystica did not place Rand al`Thor within her top 15 favorite characters. It really just boggles my mind, because he is the main protagonist of the WOT, without whom the Light has absolutely ZERO chance at defeating the Dark One.

 

Very interesting in what way?

 

How does any of the above have bearing on whether someone would list Rand as one of their favorite characters?

 

If you don't know, That is not my problem. I am not going to bother to waste my time attempting to explain to someone who apparently either has a closed mind, or just feels like starting another stupid debate.

[Suttree]

I think it is very interesting that Mystica did not place Rand al`Thor within her top 15 favorite characters. It really just boggles my mind, because he is the main protagonist of the WOT, without whom the Light has absolutely ZERO chance at defeating the Dark One.

 

Very interesting in what way?

 

How does any of the above have bearing on whether someone would list Rand as one of their favorite characters?

 

If you don't know, That is not my problem. I am not going to bother to waste my time attempting to explain to someone who apparently either has a closed mind, or just feels like starting another stupid debate.

 

How is it closed minded? I would think saying you have to like someone because they are the main protagonist more likely fits that definition. I'm just trying to understand because you make some very strange assumptions.

 

A book must not be good or popular because you've never heard of it and now someone has to list Rand as one of their favorites because he is the main character and can defeat the DO. How would you possibly reach that conclusion?

[Vambram]

*walks away from discussion, having no desire to waste my time any more in this thread*

[dwn]

I've been pondering this thread for a day or so trying to work out a thoughtful answer to the question. There is definitely an extreme level of love/hate (mostly hate) directed towards some characters, but I'm not entirely convinced it's rooted in gender (though Egwene and Elayne seem to get most of the hate).

 

The (sane) arguments I've seen are:

 

1) I hate the hypocritical/overbearing/entitled institution with which character X is associated.

2) I hate character X's behaviour/thoughts/actions towards beloved character Y.

 

Argument 1 is always going to be levelled at women, because women control nearly all the well established institutions in WoT. Argument 2 I just don't understand, because every character is occasionally guilty of less-than-admirable behaviour. Unfortunately, these arguments often become so shrill and vitriolic as to be indistinguishable from "bloody women are getting uppity!" tirades. I honestly don't see how any fictional character can inspire such hatred or reverence.

 

In other news...

 

Exactly. For that matter try and picture the hate, say, Mattin Stepaneos would get if he kept Min locked in the palace of Illian, held her at knife point, tied her down, had his way with her and then had his guards prevent her from leaving and refused to feed her until she capitulated to his advances. Murderous doesn't begin to cover it. The readers would be calling for his slow and painful death. I know I would be. Yet when Tylin does it... laughs aplenty.

 

IMO, too many people have difficulty seeing sexual predjudice as something that effects anyone other than females, even in a setting where it was men who "ate the forbidden fruit."

 

I'll be ambiguous to avoid cross-series spoilers, but there's a scene in A Dance with Dragons that is similar to the Tylin/Mat relationship with the genders swapped--namely an apparent rape that turns out to be something else. I've always viewed Tylin/Mat as a kind of roleplaying that Mat reacts to with a mixture of surprise, embarrassment and enthusiasm. I think it's made quite clear that Mat is not traumatized; he is merely uncomfortable with the unusual (to him) role reversal. Given that view of it, and a comparable scene in another book, I don't see swapping the genders affecting my reaction to the situation.

 

-- dwn

 

(Edited for clarity)

[Mystica]

that's actually a very good point, dwn. It's true, women do hold the majority of the established institutions, so that might explain the overbalance of extreme feelings in their direction. As for the second one, I think people get involved on an increasingly personal and emotional level in series that go on so long as this one does, which might explain why they feel so passionate about characters. The longer the series, the longer people spend time on it, think on it, get to know the characters and their circumstance and form a personal connection to them. It's probably a logical human reaction, which I've seen in nurses before in real life. The longer they attend the same patients, the higher the risk of them becoming emotionally attached to them. I have several nieces in the field and the ones that rotate patients more often are also less inclined to be personally traumatised if one of the patients dies (to clarify, it shocks them all and they each need time to move past it in order to be able to serve other patients. It just takes much longer with the ones that spend more time with the same patients than the ones that don't).

 

 

 

@ Hybrid

 

you point out something that may indeed need some explaining so I'll try to do that. My aim was not to accuse anyone in particular with those lines. Note that I didn't single anyone out and in the first clearly included myself in the saying as I used 'we' and 'our'. The second line you point out comes from the proven fact that people will self-sencor in order to avoid public judgement. This is a perfectly human reaction and goes for everyone. Those lines merely came from a psychological point of view aimed towards ùs being human.

 

Trust me, if I want to be insulting there will be no need to analise my lines. It will be crystal clear. However, I don't see any reason to insult people so why would I waste my time with it? Got enough to do around here as it is. My sole goal was to bring to the table a question around which we might be able to talk without it turning in to a mudslinging contest. I never singled anyone out in any of my posts (except to answer a post from someone), so why some people feel they need to be 'personally' affronted is beyond me. Not everything is about 'them'.

 

 

 

And no, Rand nor Lan are in my top 15, they stand lower on my list. Neither is Faile, whom I quite thoroughly dislike. She's not on my list no matter how complete I'd make it. She ruined Perrin for me who was once in my top 10.

[EpitomyofShyness]

The (sane) arguments I've seen are:

 

1) I hate the hypocritical/overbearing/entitled institution with which character X is associated.

2) I hate character X's behaviour/thoughts/actions towards beloved character Y.

 

Argument 1 is always going to be levelled at women, because women control nearly all the well established institutions in WoT. Argument 2 I just don't understand, because every character is occasionally guilty of less-than-admirable behaviour. Unfortunately, these arguments often become so shrill and vitriolic as to be indistinguishable from "bloody women are getting uppity!" tirades. I honestly don't see how any fictional character can inspire such hatred or reverence.

 

You know those are actually really good points. Ignoring the reasons for why I love Logain, people who mistreat him, regardless of their other merits, piss me off. Conversely people who help Mr. sexy Ashaman out I tend to like.

 

And many massive organizations tend to be corrupt, look at the world governments in our own world. Since many of the most powerful organizations are controlled by women in Randland, corruption is there, therefore the organization and the women associated with it become disliked.

 

In other news...

 

I'll be ambiguous to avoid cross-series spoilers, but there's a scene in A Dance with Dragons that is similar to the Tylin/Mat relationship with the genders swapped--namely an apparent rape that turns out to be something else. I've always viewed Tylin/Mat as a kind of roleplaying that Mat reacts to with a mixture of surprise, embarrassment and enthusiasm. I think it's made quite clear that Mat is not traumatized; he is merely uncomfortable with the unusual (to him) role reversal. Given that view of it, and a comparable scene in another book, I don't see swapping the genders affecting my reaction to the situation.

 

-- dwn

 

(Edited for clarity)

 

The Mat/Tylin situation is complicated in my head, but if what you say is true, and I'll take your word for it, it eases my conscience somewhat.

 

 

Trust me, if I want to be insulting there will be no need to analise my lines. It will be crystal clear. However, I don't see any reason to insult people so why would I waste my time with it? Got enough to do around here as it is. My sole goal was to bring to the table a question around which we might be able to talk without it turning in to a mudslinging contest. I never singled anyone out in any of my posts (except to answer a post from someone), so why some people feel they need to be 'personally' affronted is beyond me. Not everything is about 'them'.

 

Mystica is right here. People need to chill, were reading books, for realsies, debate is fun but personal insults are not necessary. Everyone, seriously, relax.

[dwn]

that's actually a very good point, dwn. It's true, women do hold the majority of the established institutions, so that might explain the overbalance of extreme feelings in their direction. As for the second one, I think people get involved on an increasingly personal and emotional level in series that go on so long as this one does, which might explain why they feel so passionate about characters. The longer the series, the longer people spend time on it, think on it, get to know the characters and their circumstance and form a personal connection to them. It's probably a logical human reaction, which I've seen in nurses before in real life. The longer they attend the same patients, the higher the risk of them becoming emotionally attached to them. I have several nieces in the field and the ones that rotate patients more often are also less inclined to be personally traumatised if one of the patients dies (to clarify, it shocks them all and they each need time to move past it in order to be able to serve other patients. It just takes much longer with the ones that spend more time with the same patients than the ones that don't).

 

Perhaps. Even so, the level of hate expressed toward certain characters is truly mind boggling.

 

I'll be ambiguous to avoid cross-series spoilers, but there's a scene in A Dance with Dragons that is similar to the Tylin/Mat relationship with the genders swapped--namely an apparent rape that turns out to be something else. I've always viewed Tylin/Mat as a kind of roleplaying that Mat reacts to with a mixture of surprise, embarrassment and enthusiasm. I think it's made quite clear that Mat is not traumatized; he is merely uncomfortable with the unusual (to him) role reversal. Given that view of it, and a comparable scene in another book, I don't see swapping the genders affecting my reaction to the situation.

 

The Mat/Tylin situation is complicated in my head, but if what you say is true, and I'll take your word for it, it eases my conscience somewhat.

 

Well, other people find the whole thing horrific and appalling. And while I can certainly understand such a reaction to that first scene, I don't think it holds up over subsequent chapters. Putting myself in Mat's shoes, I can easily imagine feeling uncomfortable with Tylin's advances, yet ultimately okay with them. There's also (again, in my opinion) the subtext that at least some of Mat's embarrassment/indignation comes from how he feels society expects him to react. And I get the sense that Mat is more freaked out because he actually enjoys being Tylin's 'pretty', which greatly conflicts with his self-image.

 

-- dwn

[JKN-SW]

No, I can't ever feel comfortable with the way Tylin treats Mat. It's rape from the beginning, and the way she comtinued to belittle him is just disgusting. As a matter of fact, in my reread of the series, it's one of the things that I feel most upset about. Had it happened in RL, she would have spent a good number of years in prison, at least in Sweden.

 

I think one of the reasons I react even more this time, is the number of cases the recent years where men have kept young women locked up as sex-slaves. Tje girl in Austria for example. The parallell is just too close for me. Taking command of another person, denying them their free will and making them into a tool for your own pleasure is simply revolting. Even if Mat enjoys the moments in bed with Tylin, that is no excuse. Even the girl in Austria formed a strong bond to the man that kept her prisoner, and was actually sad when he died, because "he was the person closest to her" as she put it.

[dwn]

I'm going to try to tackle the question from a different angle by examining the roles of the six main protagonists (Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve). Each goes through his or her own coming of age arc--but they aren't equivalent. It's really as if a single coming of age story was broken among six characters, which could easily explain why some characters resonate with or grate on different readers, regardless of gender.

 

Rand's arc is about identity. Is he Rand the sheepherder or Lews Therin Telamon the reviled saviour and venerated destroyer of the world? This is a very easy character arc to get behind, because nearly everyone has to deal with some kind of identity issues when growing up.

 

Perrin's arc is about confidence and responsibility. His fundamental problem is that he doesn't feel adequate to the task of being a leader. I think fewer people identify with Perrin's story because fewer people take on leadership roles in their own lives.

 

Mat's arc is about fate and free will. He spends most of his time coming to terms the destiny that the Pattern has created for him. Anyone who has transitioned from a parent-dominated childhood to a self-determined adulthood can relate to this.

 

Nynaeve's arc is about letting go of childhood, for which her desperate clinging to Two Rivers simplicity is a metaphor. Again, nearly everyone has had to go through this sort of thing.

 

Elayne's arc is about duty and fulfilling expectations. Most of her maturing involves her desire to live up to the legacy of Andor's queens, Morgase in particular. I think this arc is hit and miss with readers, depending on how much personal and parental expectations were placed on them.

 

Finally, Egwene's arc is about education and career. Egwene goes from a child, to a schoolgirl in the Tower, to (effectively) a post-grad with the Aiel, to a political office as Amyrlin. The bizarre jump to Amyrlin aside, I think this arc is probably the most difficult to relate to, because a typical person goes through it over 30-40 years (if at all) rather than Egwene's 2-3. Also, a character arc about professional advancement just isn't as exciting or personal as the others.

 

-- dwn

[Himiko]

For me, I don't think the genders would alter whether I like or dislike characters. However, I think it would definitely invoke different emotions, because of real world history. I disagree with your assessments of characters in the initial post, TBH, but that aside:

 

- Rand annoys me- especially his "I MUST NOT HURT WIMMINZ!!!!" list. I think if his gender was reversed, I would find a woman refusing to hurt men because she believed it was wrong equally silly and illogical, especially for someone who knows the fate of the world rests on his/her shoulders. However, the insanity that this list is a symptom of, as well as their upbringing, which would, presumably, involve women being "the ones who broke the world", and men being the ones who wield the power, would still give a reason to let him/her off, even if not entirely.

 

- Mat- well, Birgitte is a popular character, or seems to be, and they seem quite close in personality. I'd still enjoy his character as a woman, myself. Perhaps some would object to this woman being a "maniser", as someone put it, though few seem to have a problem with Birgitte's eye for the men.

 

-Perrin, I quite like, though I prefer Faile. Reverse their genders, and they would still complement each other well as a couple. I agree with whoever said people who like Min would like female-Perrin.

 

- Egwene, I think treats people very badly sometimes- certainly Nynaeve, and her treatment of Gawyn is hardly admirable. With Nynaeve, she does this long before she is in any position of authority over the other woman- she argues with her for the sake of it in TDR, she bullies her in TFOH, and laughs about it afterwards. If Egwene were a man, manipulating his friend so, or refusing to listen to his girlfriend because she was questioning his authority, then yeah, I'd still dislike her. Yes, she displays an admirable willingness to learn, but that is not usually what people dislike about her, something which would be obvious if more posts from people who dislike Egwene had been read. I have honestly never seen anyone say "Egwene likes to learn so I hate her!" Writing about all of Egwene's good points and all of Rand's bad points, then wondering how on Earth people could judge Egwene harshly and not Rand is a terrible argument, and whilst I appreciate it is frustrating when a character you like has a lot of people who dislike them (Faile is one of my favourite characters), and whilst you have no obligation to agree with other people's dislike of Egwene, please don't suggest that we dislike her because of her good points.

 

- Nynaeve- I love her to bits, I think her good and bad qualities would be considered equally good/ bad in a man, with the exception of thumping women over the head with sticks, as men beating women is likely something that would make most readers more uncomfortable. Of course, she does grow out of this stage :P

 

Bear in mind that overall, we, the readers, live in a world where women have had to fight for equal rights with men, where many still don't have them. A strictly male organisation that looks down on women and sees them as dangerous? A powerful man blackmailing, bribing, starving and cajoling an unwilling woman to sleep with him? These are things that we're likely to react to badly because of how women have been historically treated. This isn't the case in the world of the WoT, which, quite frankly, is a bit of a refreshing change from most fantasy works, which often stick close to the "women are treated as inferior to men" formula. It is easier for us to understand and sympathise with the reasoning of men being hunted down (the taint on saidin), because the idea of a group of powerful women hunting down a powerful man and taking that power away does not resonate quite so much in the real world.

 

So, yes, I do think that the women- certainly Egwene- would be much more widely hated, because not only would people who currently dislike her probably continue to do so, as her/ his personality traits would remain the same, but she would be the head of a patriarchal organisation, facing down a woman who is supposed to save the world, asking her if she has come to submit to their authority, and believing that women with power are dangerous, believing that men should be in charge for the women's own good. Someone who, despite his organisation of channelers having spent centuries bonding warrior women as bodyguards, believes that a woman bonding a man is a terrible thing. These kind of organisations are often used as a villain, or obstacle to a major female character in many books, because its easy to sympathise with said female against them. Egwene and the WT would be more hated than they are as women, I say that with reasonable certainty.

 

NB: All of the above, just my opinion.

[Apple13]

I'm going to try to tackle the question from a different angle by examining the roles of the six main protagonists (Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve). Each goes through his or her own coming of age arc--but they aren't equivalent. It's really as if a single coming of age story was broken among six characters, which could easily explain why some characters resonate with or grate on different readers, regardless of gender.

 

Rand's arc is about identity. Is he Rand the sheepherder or Lews Therin Telamon the reviled saviour and venerated destroyer of the world? This is a very easy character arc to get behind, because nearly everyone has to deal with some kind of identity issues when growing up.

 

Perrin's arc is about confidence and responsibility. His fundamental problem is that he doesn't feel adequate to the task of being a leader. I think fewer people identify with Perrin's story because fewer people take on leadership roles in their own lives.

 

Mat's arc is about fate and free will. He spends most of his time coming to terms the destiny that the Pattern has created for him. Anyone who has transitioned from a parent-dominated childhood to a self-determined adulthood can relate to this.

 

Nynaeve's arc is about letting go of childhood, for which her desperate clinging to Two Rivers simplicity is a metaphor. Again, nearly everyone has had to go through this sort of thing.

 

Elayne's arc is about duty and fulfilling expectations. Most of her maturing involves her desire to live up to the legacy of Andor's queens, Morgase in particular. I think this arc is hit and miss with readers, depending on how much personal and parental expectations were placed on them.

 

Finally, Egwene's arc is about education and career. Egwene goes from a child, to a schoolgirl in the Tower, to (effectively) a post-grad with the Aiel, to a political office as Amyrlin. The bizarre jump to Amyrlin aside, I think this arc is probably the most difficult to relate to, because a typical person goes through it over 30-40 years (if at all) rather than Egwene's 2-3. Also, a character arc about professional advancement just isn't as exciting or personal as the others.

 

-- dwn

 

This is one of the best posts so far. All the characters' arcs are so succintly summarized :} I've always liked Mat's story the best, because I did think at first that it would be hard to make him such an influential character in the storyline because he used to be so carefree, even irresponsible. His truimphs are the best to read about because he spends so much time trying to get away from them, but when he finally gets down to doing them, it's always awesome :)

 

EDIT: About the Mat/Tylin thing - When I was reading that through I was at first annoyed that Tylin would force Mat in that way, but when their story progressed I realized that it was very different from an actual rape. Mat wasn't really traumatized about the whole incident, the way you think he would be if he was actually being assaulted against his will. Also, a strong fighter like Mat would really have had no problem incapacitating Tylin if he really wanted to. And I'm sure there are ways of taking that knife away from her short of hurting her. I think it was more a reason of pride that was keeping him there instead of anything else. He probably didn't run away because "Matrim Cauthon doesn't run away from women".

[WilsonC]

It's a simple question, but the answer's really not so simple.

 

The first thing to clarify is what we're talking about here:

1. A full, across the board change of all genders, adjusting only for biological impossibilities (Elayne would obviously be different written as a man, because her overly risky actions during pregnancy based on the faith she has in her interpretation of Min's viewing help color our view of her)

2. A shift of all the major characters' genders, as well as a shift in which half of the power is tainted (thus making the accepted channelers male) without a global shift

3. A shift in a particular character, in isolation

 

I think in all instances, it would certainly shift people's views of many characters, though not all.

 

The first option, I think, would come across as obvious parody and make the series feel harder to relate to. Take military positions, for instance - either the women would be physically bigger and stronger, or you'd need to find some justification as to why women make up the majority of a profession where strength is a valuable attribute. A world with physically stronger women would be a believable premise for a story, but it would be enough of a separation from earth that it would radically change the feel.

 

The second option addresses the first issue. However, it incorporates a different issue; if the Aes Sedai, the most powerful political presence of the Age, are male, and most of the world's armies are mostly male, the balance of power would be much more slanted than we see in the books. With neither the One Power nor the military might, we'd likely see fewer women in positions of power; otherwise it would feel less believable. Gender relations would be different enough that it would greatly change the feel of the series. A female Rand, for instance, would not only be faced with the fear of going mad, she'd also be faced with a bias toward a woman's role on a battlefield. This type of gender reversal could work and still be a good series, but it would be a different series and would feel more allegorical.

 

The third option would be more workable, but still poses problems of what would need to be changed for it to be believable.

 

A female Rand, for instance, would no longer be quite as scary for the world, since the threat of imminent madness wouldn't be there. The tower would approach her differently - they'd want her to be one of them, rather than many viewing her as a dangerous animal that needs to carefully directed at the Shadow without being allowed to roam free. They may still seek to make her a puppet, but she wouldn't be the taboo subject that Rand is, and Siuan probably wouldn't have been deposed. In Rand's case, his position as a male channeler within the setting is so central to his character development that even if he started with the same personality as a female, she'd develop in so different a manner that she wouldn't be the same character.

 

A male Egwene would be a similar similar situation. Her character is so intertwined with the White Tower that she wouldn't be the same character as a man. She also wouldn't have either the Seanchan or the Wise ones shaping her experience.

 

I think that Mat's character could be done as a woman, and I don't think it would change too much. There'd be a few things that could shift a bit (I think it would be a hoot having a female Mat complaining about "bloody women", and "Am I the only bloody woman in the world who can't channel???") I don't think it would change my perception of the character too much.

 

Perrin would come across as more of an outlier physically as a woman, with raw strength being a core physical trait. Overall, though, I a gender shift for Perrin wouldn't change much for me.

 

Nynaeve's journey would be different as a male channeler, but I think her core character would come across well enough as a man. Birgitte wouldn't be too big of a change. Loial wouldn't be much of a difference.

 

Cadsuane would be different in terms of ties. A male Cadsuane would have neither the credentials nor the stigma attached to the White Tower, but beyond that, and the White Tower certainly wouldn't treat a man with such reverence, but if you get around all that, a male Cadsuane would instill both the same sense of respect at his accomplishments, and the same personal dislike over the way he bullies everyone around him.

 

Overall, gender relations are ties so integrally to many parts of the setting that it would be impossible to change many characters or organizations around without changing how they come across. For the characters whose gender is less tied to a core element of setting, I think many could be changed without a major shift in perceptions of them - but that's really a minority of characters.

[Hybrid]

I'll be ambiguous to avoid cross-series spoilers, but there's a scene in A Dance with Dragons that is similar to the Tylin/Mat relationship with the genders swapped--namely an apparent rape that turns out to be something else.

 

Thanks, much appreciated.

[Suttree]

I'll be ambiguous to avoid cross-series spoilers, but there's a scene in A Dance with Dragons that is similar to the Tylin/Mat relationship with the genders swapped--namely an apparent rape that turns out to be something else. I've always viewed Tylin/Mat as a kind of roleplaying that Mat reacts to with a mixture of surprise, embarrassment and enthusiasm. I think it's made quite clear that Mat is not traumatized; he is merely uncomfortable with the unusual (to him) role reversal. Given that view of it, and a comparable scene in another book, I don't see swapping the genders affecting my reaction to the situation.

 

-- dwn

 

(Edited for clarity)

 

I don't really see how the two are comparable. In ADwD it is two people that are lovers and have an established relationship in which it is quite clearly role playing. That is very different that what happens between Tylin & Mat.

 

Also you make some great points in your assessment of character roles. Really enjoyed reading most peoples input on the 4th page of this thread. Rational and respectful discourse, imagine that. Pretty sure this is what the OP had in mind when she asked the original question.

[Aspar]

Nynaeve's arc is about letting go of childhood, for which her desperate clinging to Two Rivers simplicity is a metaphor. Again, nearly everyone has had to go through this sort of thing.

 

-- dwn

 

When Nynaeve left the Two Rivers she was about 25 and had been a Wisdom of the village for some years. Hardly a child or a teenager.

 

I like your other arc summaries.

[sleepinghour]

Nynaeve's arc is about letting go of childhood, for which her desperate clinging to Two Rivers simplicity is a metaphor. Again, nearly everyone has had to go through this sort of thing.

 

-- dwn

 

When Nynaeve left the Two Rivers she was about 25 and had been a Wisdom of the village for some years. Hardly a child or a teenager.

I don't think "childhood" is quite the right word for it, but even in the later books, Rand thinks Nynaeve sometimes acts like they'll all be returning to the Two Rivers someday soon. Only in TGS does she acknowledge that there's no longer a place for her in the Two Rivers, and she wouldn't have found that kind of life fulfilling anymore. So perhaps it could be described as Nynaeve learning to let go of the past and acknowledging that she and the others have changed.

[lilltempest]

Nynaeve's arc is about letting go of childhood, for which her desperate clinging to Two Rivers simplicity is a metaphor. Again, nearly everyone has had to go through this sort of thing.

 

-- dwn

 

When Nynaeve left the Two Rivers she was about 25 and had been a Wisdom of the village for some years. Hardly a child or a teenager.

I don't think "childhood" is quite the right word for it, but even in the later books, Rand thinks Nynaeve sometimes acts like they'll all be returning to the Two Rivers someday soon. Only in TGS does she acknowledge that there's no longer a place for her in the Two Rivers, and she wouldn't have found that kind of life fulfilling anymore. So perhaps it could be described as Nynaeve learning to let go of the past and acknowledging that she and the others have changed.

 

I've always felt the reason Nynaeve clings to the idea of returning to the Two Rivers is due to her losing her parents. When she lost them, she was, for all intents and purposes, completely alone except for Mistress Barron. She was also only 14 years old at the time, which even using WoT standards, was very young. That would clearly, and understandably, affect her outlook on things, especially since she was just starting to "become" a woman, so to speak. She had to maintain the appearance of being strong, despite having no one in her life to give her the love, affection, and guidance (even though they don't want it!) that most people that age get. Since she had no family, she came to look at the Two Rivers as her "family".

 

Part of Perrin's story arc mirrors Nynaeve's in this respect - he, too, lost his family. He lost them all and look how it affected him. Also take into consideration that he was five or so years older than Nynaeve was when the same thing happened to her. He was being torn apart inside, and had it not been for Faile, he would have internalized all that pain and it would've torn him apart. Granted, we don't know what happened with Nynaeve after her parents died, but judging by the way she behaves (particularly her tendency to keep her emotional pain to herself and her tendency to respond with anger or annoyance first, which allows her to feel "strong" rather than "weak"), I'd guess she did not have a "Faile" to encourage her to let it out, to hold her and soothe her and see that she could get past it all. Nynaeve is the type of person who wants to be close to people but does things (sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously) to push them away (that way they can't spurn her or hurt her) but, despite everything else, she gets attached to said people. She genuinely cares for them - she has a great deal of love in her heart with, until recently, nowhere to put it (none of the Two Rivers "kids" appreciated her presence, didn't particularly like her, and took her concern for trying to control them even after she accepted that they would not go back to the TR...after his epiphany, Rand understands that she truly loves him like family, and appreciates her, but he is the only one of that lot to truly care for her, as a person not a tool, in return).

 

I see a great many people (Nynaeve haters :P) talk about how awful she is, and see some saying that they like her since she married Lan. Some think it was getting laid that "fixed" her or changed her, but it wasn't the sex - Lan was the first person Nynaeve has loved since her parents died who returned her affection (however crappily he may have done so) and, more importantly, accepted her love and concern. Even more importantly, he accepted her, not because she was Wisdom and he had to (all while fighting and bullying her because she was too young, as was the case in Emond's Field), not because she was part of his group (all the while bitching at her, demeaning her, abusing her, and treating her like she was the most horrible thing since the taint simply because she once held authority over him and he hated her for it...like Egwene), and not because he had no choice. He accepted her and loved her because he saw who she was and liked it. That was something she had not had since her parents were in her life, and it brought her some measure of peace (despite the fact that he wants to die, loves a dead woman more than her, and couldn't get away from her fast enough to go chase death) and an emotional security she had not had since she was 14.

 

In some ways, her story is the antithesis of Egwene's story. I don't see Nyn's arc as being about "letting the past go" as you suggested, any more than I see Egwene's as being about "learning" or whatever. They are two very different people, almost polar opposites as far as emotional matters go. When Nynaeve calls you a friend, it's for life - whether you want it or not. Even if you walked away from her, spat in her face and told her you never wanted to see her again, if you needed her help and called on her three years later (or three days later!), she would help you. That's who she is. Egwene would never react the way Nynaeve would, and if someone did those things and needed help, she might help them if it benefited Egwene in some manner, but they would have to pay dearly. She is a politician to her bones and I think she always has been. Nynaeve is not, no matter how hard she might try. And that is where I think their story arcs lie...

 

Nynaeve got pushed into a very political position when she was very young and was never comfortable in it because she is more of an emotional being. Unfortunately, her emotional growth was stunted due to the loss of her parents and the job she moved in to. She was like an overflowing container of water, with her emotions sloshing out all over the place (as anger or ill temperedness, since she could not be seen crying or too "loving" lest someone pounce on her "weakness"). Once she moved out of the job, got comfortable with her newfound abilities, and had someone in her life that understood and loved her (and accepted her love), she mellowed. She also calmed down somewhat. She will never be totally calm - because she feels things so deeply and strongly - but she can handle her emotions better now. So I see her story as being about finding her balance, and finding a life that is right for her...one where she is doing something she loves (Healing) without having to put up with any political crap where she has to act like something she isn't.

 

Egwene, on the other hand, was born to be a politician. She craved knowledge (knowledge is power, after all), desire to have others praise and acknowledge her abilities and accomplishments (even at 9, it was "I am going to be the bestest water carrier ever!!), and control (she always hated being told what to do and never really followed orders all that well, and tends to find it "necessary" to break rules she believes others should follow). Unlike Nynaeve, Egwene is not an emotional person. She is, in many ways, all cold logic. She easily turns off any emotion she has toward anyone when it means getting the upper hand over them, exercising what she feels is her "rights" given to her by her position, or forcing her will on them (because she is always convinced she has the right answers). Once she finally stepped into her position without having to worry about any resistance, friends became tools to be used to further her status or expand her power base. It isn't about emotion or love with her, it's about her position. She makes these comments about "Egwene the woman" or "Egwene the Amyrlin" but we rarely see anything outside of "Egwene the Amyrlin", as though she is the epitome of that position. She is, in every respect, a politician and she loves every second of it.

 

So I see Egwene's overall story as being similar to Nynaeve's, just in the opposite direction: Nynaeve's path allowed her to grow emotionally, learn how to deal with emotions she always had but had no idea what to do with, accepting who she is and is not, and becoming comfortable in her own skin to the point where she doesn't have to always act angry to hide the fact that she is actually a woman with real emotions and feelings; Egwene's path allowed her to shed the parts of herself that she neither wanted nor needed, and put her in a position where she is comfortable, where it is not only accepted, but expected, that she will be cold, unyielding, calculating and manipulative...where she can become the symbol of knowledge and power she has always craved to be.