would you feel the same if genders were reversed?

[Kahsm]

I don't dislike Egwene because she's female, I dislike her because she's an arrogant, borderline-sociopathic, sexist bully who tortures her friends at the weekend and believes she has a Creator-given right to "guide" a 400 year old demi-god hand-crafted by Creation to be it's champion. I would dislike Egwene whether she be male, female or bloody Martian.

 

I would say I'm sick and tired of the neo-feminist bullshit that leads to threads like this (yay! Let's all go march in our underwear up the highstreet calling ourselves sluts! That's what our mothers fought for!) But I am more worried by the fact that so many young women seem to view the likes of Egwene as a powerful woman and rolemodel.

 

So far this is going on the front page of my "'Crazy, baseless and hyperbolic **** people have said about Egwene' Database"

[Aiel Heart]

JP: at least it's not Berelain that everyone thinks is awesome!!!

 

Morlock: You have a good point, and while most of Min's whining does take place in her head she whines allowed until Suain gets fed up enough and barks at her enough to make her stop

[EpitomyofShyness]

If Rand was a girl I think I wouldn't like him more or less, just like him/her differently.

 

I've never liked Egwene as a person. That doesn't mean I think she's evil or something, but if I met someone like Egwene in real life, I'd avoid her. Bossy people annoy me, and Egwene is bossy. If she was a guy I'd dislike her even more, borderline hatred. As it is I'm still very irritated by her. During KoD and tGS this dissipated somewhat, but as of ToM it's back with a vengeance.

 

While Perrin's storyline annoys me, I totally sympathize with him. I'm gonna go out and flat out say, I'd make a bad 'savior of the world' cause in Perrin's situation I'd have been more than willing to do way worse that what he did to save my fiance. It's selfish, I acknowledge that, but I'd still do it. So if Perrin was a girl I'd still sympathize.

 

Cadsuane, now she's contradictory for me. She cared for nothing but helping Rand, which is damn refreshing, but she's another person who, in real life, I'd feel uncomfortable around. She's pushy, although for good reason, and tends to trample all over other people. She's an awesome character, but once again I just wouldn't want to be around her in real life. If Cadsuane was a guy I'd feel pretty much the same.

 

Logain, yeah he's not a 'nice guy' but I like bad boys what can I say? I'm not trying to justify it or anything, and I certainly won't claim other people should like him just cause I do, but he's one of my favorite characters, mostly because I like tall guys who are dominant. So yup. Oh and if he was a girl I probably wouldn't like him at all, so sure, in his case sex plays a part.

 

If I really get down to it, most of my opinions of the characters, with some notable exceptions, are based on whether or not I would like the person in real life. Perrin I totally sympathize with, Rand is someone who I would have loved to hang out with back with he was Two River's-ish, Egwene I would not be able to stand, Cadsuane would make me uncomfortable, Logain is drool-worthy. That's all.

[randsc]

I would say I'm sick and tired of the neo-feminist bullshit that leads to threads like this (yay! Let's all go march in our underwear up the highstreet calling ourselves sluts! That's what our mothers fought for!) But I am more worried by the fact that so many young women seem to view the likes of Egwene as a powerful woman and rolemodel.

 

So how do you really feel JP

 

Mystica asks a perfectly legitimate question and somehow I don't think comments like this really help the situation.

 

Mystica asked a perfectly legitimate question (Would you feel the same if the genders were reversed?) but followed it up with character synopses that reflect his/her own biases. And it is perfectly reasonable to call bull$hit when that happens.

 

Would I like a character who displayed "rare levels of humility in order to grow, blah, blah, blah" if that character were male? Sure, probably. At least if that character did not also display extreme levels of arrogance, hypocrisy and gender chauvinism. And I might find that hypothetical male character sympathetic, interesting and well-developed, if he didn't embody pretty much every trait on the Mary-Sue checklist, with the possible (we don't know for sure yet, until AMoL comes out) exception of sleeping with Captain Kirk.

 

If we were to accept Mystica's one-sided descriptions of the players, it would be difficult to argue that anything but gender bias was at work in our dislike of Egwene and Cadsuane. But I don't accept her descriptions, which are shallow and biased.

 

I would ask Mystica to consider how much she would love a fictional organization, exclusively male, which views the world through a 3000-year-old lens of unjustified self-regard and misogyny. Would she consider that organization to be praiseworthy? Would she consider a character willing to submit himself to the apprenticeship rituals of such an organization to be a model of humility?

 

Jon Paul's comment is a really quite reasonable reaction to a vile personal insult. Yeah, that's right. Mystica's post, and others like it, are personally insulting to other posters. When I post a thread not complimentary of Egwene, I don't suggest that anyone who likes her is a man-hater. To post these sort of long "explorations" purporting to uncover the personal motivations of other posters is personally insulting in a way that discussions of the characters entirely within the context of the story is not.

 

How should personal insults like Mystica's be dealt with?

[Mandro]

So, I'm curious. For years people have voiced their favor or anti-favor for characters. From what I've been able to deduct, there seems to be an overwhelming tendency to judge the females in the books much harsher than the males. The amount of 'hate' threads going up is quite interesting. Especially in an age where we all pretend to stand for equality. It shows a rather interesting view of our 'real' opinions, burried underneath the politically correct facades.

 

A few examples:

 

Rand acts like a spoiled brat from the moment Moiraine takes him out of the Two Rivers, in all aspects, but he's considered a victom of his circumstance. It's not 'his' fault. He's being pushed, pulled, shoved and prodded in all directions and trying to cope with it all in a very short period of time. He is stubborn like a mule when it comes to taking advise, afraid of being used like a tool. At the same time he has no problems using everyone else like tools, because.... well, it's him, so that's ok. Hypocritical much? He gathers the support of the Aiel on nothing else but the fact that he is prophecised and what does he do? Threats them like fodder at every opportunity, throw away gloves to pick up and discard at will, he spends not a moment thought on their future and how he's going to save the remnant. He doesn't care. Not once in the 13 books has he indicated that he cares about the future of a people that have thrown their support behind him and THANKS TO whom he was able to do what he did afterwars. Without them, he'd never have taken Cairhien, Tear, etc. Hell, without him he'd never have taken Callandor. And still he threats them like throwaway garbage. He is doing to them exactly what he fears the White Tower would do to him. But hang on, that's Dart Rand. It's not his fault! He's being corrupted by the Dark Side. Well boohoo... he's the Dragon Reborn, isn't he? Isn't he supposed to be above that? If he's so superior to all other humans, then he shouldn't have been that easily corrupted in the first place. No, what made him succeptible was his stubborness, his already ingrained WILL to oppose Aes Sedai and not go in to cooperation with them. He had already decided they were evil, eventhough the only one he'd ever met was one who saved his father and his whole town to boot! But no, he choose to believe the tails from his childhood. Aes Sedai are evil... don't trust them..... any of them. And so he opened the path for the Dark Side to manipulate this fear in him to their own use. Making it feel as though it was his choice all along and having an easy time at it because he hàd that fear already! But hang on.... he did change! VOG proves it. Yeah, and how many thousands are dead because he needed time to learn? How would he have gotten to that point if Cadsuane hadn't made the 'mistake' of confronting him with his father? Look, he's the Dragon Reborn!! He's the savior!! Get off it. He made mistakes, so what? Everyone does!

 

Egwene adopts a learning mentality from the moment she leaves the Two Rivers, subjects herself to the low status of student, novice, WO apprentice, because she acknowledges she has much to learn ànd shows a desire to learn from those wiser and more experienced than she. Showing a rare level of humility and willingness to submit in order to grow. Her path takes her on a journey that makes her the most powerful woman in the world and bam: she's pure evil, arrogant, manipulative, scheming, etc. Nevermind the road she took to get where she is and the hurdles she's taking every day still in order to 'do the best she can'. Nevermind the battles she had to overcome along the way. Nevermind that she suffered more than Elayne and Nynaeve put together, first as a damane, then at the hands of Elaida. Nono. She's a pregnant dog that should be put to sleep.

 

Perrin effectively submits the entire region of the Two Rivers to the Seanchan in order to see his very personal goal reached: the freedom of his wife. From the books, we literally learn that he would work with the Dark One himself to see her back safely. He would have literally sacrificed the entire world to that end. And only àfter he gets her back, only thén does he start to feel the pangs of guilt over his intentions and the things he was willing to do. Much good it would have done anyone, that guilt feeling after the fact, if he had indeed been offered support by the Dark forces instead of the Seanchan. But this we should understand, of course. The poor man was beside himself with worry over his wife. You can't blame him for loving someone! Nevermind that it's a selfish love and the rest of the world can go to Shayol Ghul. Lanfear, anyone? Oh wait, but he's taveren. So it's ok. The Pattern would set things right again. The Pattern. Not him. But nevermind that.

 

Cadsuane has been operating for hundreds of years and has earned a status of legend through all the work she's done over those centuries. She fought numerous battles against the Blight, stopped wars between countries, reconciled kings and queens, lost several warders in her fight against the Shadow and with each loss gained a pain the likes of which none of us can even come close to imagine. But she's Aes Sedai. Therefore, she's evil! Nevermind that she earned that status she's drawing from today. Nevermind the hundreds of years of experience she's built up. Nevermind the thousands of sacrifices she's made in that time. Nono, it's totally unrealistic for such a person to think that a youth of 20 years old might actually need her advise and counsil. It's arrogant beyond belief to think she has anything to offer that might help his goal to defeat the Dark One. Let's ignore all the experience she has and just label her as a manipulative, self-important, arrogant idiot. Because..... she makes mistakes!!

 

Logain claims himself to be the Dragon Reborn. Is captured and then gentled. He then turns around and falsly accuses the Red Aes Sedai of having seduced him in to claiming to the Dragon Reborn, because he wants some revenge. Nevermind that he didn't check the prophecies to verify whether or not he actually wàs the Dragon Reborn. Nevermind that he had no problem creating civil war in order to get his revenge. Nevermind the hundreds of deaths he's caused by claiming to be something he was not. The poor lad was rightly mistaken the signs. He couldn't have known he wasn't the Dragon. And that he wanted revenge against the Reds was only natural. They'd taken away his life! Of course his life is more important than those of the many that lay in their grave now because of him. Or the families that have to live without those members that got themselves killed because of him. He is all that matters, after all. Poor poor Logain. But wait.... he is redeeming himself. He's fighting the good fight now! He's much bettr than Taim! He's fighting on the side of the Light for real! He just made a mistake. That's all. Have you never made a mistake? He's only human after all!!

 

 

 

 

I wonder how you all would feel if the genders of the characters were reversed. Not that I ever expect an honest answer to that, but it would be interesting to see.

 

To every example, I would say YES. And by "genders reversed." I mean I'm a guy, and you are a not, so you look through a prism that isn't there in my opinion.

 

1) Rand thinks his father is dying, he's worrying about it constantly, fighting constantly, running and hiding constantly, targeted by mythological creatures constantly, being bossed around constantly, learning how to use a weapon that only merchant guards used, not to protect a wagon, but his own life because he is being hunted, constantly. Then, he gets seperated from his friends, except for one, and one acquaintence, the acquaitence who he belives is dead because of him, and his friend is batcrap crazy, and then he realizes that he is the most hated man in the 3rd age.

 

2) Egwene thinks she's on a great adventure, ignores every bit of advice she is given by everyone even her teacher that she aparantly only learned how to make a fire of the one power from and takes out the repetition of her teacher only voiced by others with the very petulance you accuse rand of.

 

3) perrin does not submit the 2 rivers to the seanchan or any of his at the time vassals, cuz that's what they are now. He offers to reduce hostilities because of the obvious tenor of Manetheran to any of those who recognize the name. If perrin is at all childish and silly, it's when he runs into the room to save Faile, and when he charges into battle to again save her.

 

4) Cadsuan is a typical AS only more powerful and I will admit, wiser, than most because she thinks she has a right to be right. She effed up a bunch of times, If you doubt make a true comparison to her and rands reaction in ToM.

 

5)Logain Hates the white tower, because of what they did to him and the red ajah specifically. He could channel, he fielded a great army and he was always kind, but the venom from the reds was palpable in every paragraph where a red was present talking about men who could channel. He hated elaida in particular because she treated him like a trinket, a weak little boy who lost his toy sword now that he couldn't channel, and he hated her for that, also, now that he know that the dragon had been reborn he wondered what would happen to others like him. Hate is a powerful motivator sometimes, especially when the target deserves hate.

 

Of course, there are some moments where I agree wit you, but overall? No. You give egwene too much credit. Didn't someone do a word count of the books and notice that "sniff" was the most common word used in a paragraph that includes one of the female characters? I think that answers all. RJ made a lot of errors in fleshing out all of the characters, but "sniff" was present from the second chapter of TEotW.

[Vambram]

 

It's amazing that you read ALL that into this thread... where did you "read between the lines" and get all that?

 

Egwene has a LOT of accomplishments to stand on to justify a little ego; worst, she is one of the youngest to hold her office, making her have to have a big chip on her shoulder so people forget her age. This was how RJ chose her character to overcome her situation, and I think it has been a winner for her. But borderline-sociopathic?? REALLY? Just once, I would LOVE to hear how you think she should have acted if you had control of everything she did... what is the "winning" way to act and hold yourself in your opinion? Should she have said please and thank you more? It's easy to be a armchair quarterback, so to speak, when the weight of the world isn't on your shoulders, but for Rand, Perrin and Egwene... it IS.

 

 

I agree with all of that paragraph except for the part where the metaphorical weight of the world is on Egwene's shoulders as it is on Rand's shoulders. Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and the Dragon Reborn would have found the White Tower to be as equally difficult or problematic to be his allies whether it was Siuan or Egwene who is the Amyrlin Seat. Egwene never would have been nearly as successful as she has become if she did not get lots and lots and lots of help from Siuan.

I know that Siuan has admitted that Egwene is the right woman for the job of Amyrlin Seat at this time. But, lets pretend that Elaida and the other aes sedai never deposed Siuan Suanche... would she have then been the right woman to be the Amyrlin to lead the White Tower as an ally for Rand al`Thor? In my opinion, the answer is yes. Remember, concerning Egwene, despite everything that both she and Rand al`Thor have experienced, suffered, learned, and overcome, she still believes that she and the White Tower are smart enough and wise enough to guide Rand al`Thor, the Dragon Reborn. Siuan would probably have been more practical about this, and I am not certain that she would have been more stubborn towards Rand as is Egwene.

 

 

 

As for those who dislike people who whine... please note they seldom whine to anyone, it is usually their thoughts we are privy to... pay attention to your own private thoughts, I'll bet you would be amazed at how many people would say YOU are whining if they knew what you were thinking. After all, there is a reason they are private thoughts, and you are not sharing them with others.. right?

 

I re-read my words, and they seem harsh... I do not mean to ruffle anyone's feathers, just bring up ideas to kick around.

 

 

Dreggs Morlock, I compliment you on the very best paragraph in this entire thread, .. so far. Well said, sir.

[Suttree]

How should personal insults like Mystica's be dealt with?

 

As someone who tries to be a gentleman I would start by not ever using the word slut. Sometimes no matter what your personnel opinion you just have to take the high ground Randsc.

[randsc]

That was clearly a reference to the "slutwalks" currently becoming popular in cities around the world. That is the word that the participants themselves have chosen (in an effort to "reclaim" it) and is certainly in no way inappropriate in context.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slutwalk

 

Jon Paul didn't call Mystica a slut; he criticized what he sees as a commonality of attitudes between her post and the slutwalkers.

[Suttree]

That was clearly a reference to the "slutwalks" currently becoming popular in cities around the world. That is the word that the participants themselves have chosen (in an effort to "reclaim" it) and is certainly in no way inappropriate in context.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slutwalk

 

Jon Paul didn't call Mystica a slut; he criticized what he sees as a commonality of attitudes between her post and the slutwalkers.

 

I realize that but when combined with claiming "bullshit neo-feminist" to categorize the post it is all a bit much. Regardless of how you perceive the character synopsis the question is legit. To characterize her post as a "vile personnel insult" is quite ludicrous.

[randsc]

She is implying that anyone who disagrees with her view of the characters must be a sexist. Yes, that is a vile personal insult. Just as it would a vile personal insult to claim anyone disagreeing with her was a racist.

 

There are other tacks she could have taken that would not have been as vile, even if still insulting. Suggesting that people weren't reading carefully enough, for example. Or even that people lacked the experience necessary to see what she sees.

 

But to impute a sexist motivation to her opponents is vile. She deserves to be called on it.

[Apple13]

To answer the original question, I would probably feel the same way about them if the genders were reversed, though maybe a little different.

 

Rand and Egwene: I don't see why so many people feel that to like one of these characters is to dislike the other. I think they both have some good qualities, and some bad ones. They're even very alike in some ways. For example, they can both be as stubborn as hell, and have a regrettable tendency to ignore the advice of older and wiser people. I think they can both seem a little ungrateful for the help from others (Rand with the Aiel, Egwene with Siuan etc.). But one of their best characteristics is that both Rand and Egwene often think about their actions and morality, even if they don't make the right decisions always. They always TRY to do what they feel is the best thing to do, even when suffering personal harm for it (even if their idea of what is best is skewed). They are different in other ways, but I feel that if Rand were to be compared to another character, Egwene would be the one he would be the closest in personality to.

 

Cadsuane: I would feel the same for her: I would know that she's well-meaning, but I would still think she can be a little too harsh at times with Rand.

 

Perrin: I think I would still not like him. Or Faile.

 

Logain: I never really liked Logain all that much. I thought he was kind of an idiot to proclaim himself the Dragon Reborn when he wasn't. There didn't seem to be a good enough reason for him to do it, aside from the fact that he was strong in the One Power. And I don't get why he did it either - Did he want the power that came with being the Dragon Reborn? Because that just seems a bit selfish to me. To lie about something that's so important is just stupid and irresponsible. That said, I think I like him better now, since he has finally acknowledged Rand as the true Dragon, and is starting to do some good with the Ashaman, and has stopped just going around fighting battles for no reason.

[Stitch]

For starters, much as it shames me to admit, I probably would not have read the books had the genders been switched until perhaps the fifth or sixth book had come out (I have a great deal of trouble relating to female lead protagonist books - with few exceptions; this means I have a lot of difficulty enjoying the read). That stated, had not just the people, but the problems facing the users of the one power and everything else been switched... it would tell a story of male domination of the world with women breaking out of their control to some extent... itd be like some women's liberation fantasy thing... I would not enjoy it.

 

I could manage if it were one or two of the characters (though were perrin and faile switched around everyone would call it domestic abuse), however for the entire cast? I find it difficult to imagine that the relationships between the characters or the tone of the book would remain consistent with the WoT series as we know it.

[Hybrid]

Before I go too far afield, I'll try to answer the original question, at least insofar as to my feelings on the characters provided. I'd like to think that I base my judgments on the characters as people, not as men and women, but who knows.

 

Rand:

- I've disliked Rand ever since he started hardening himself. When reading his POVs, I've always wanted to reach into the books and shake some sense into him. That makes him a great character, but not my favorite.

 

Egwene:

- I've disliked Egwene for her attitude to others ever since the first book, but I also recognize her as something of a necessary evil when compared with the other Aes Sedai.

 

Perrin:

- I started to dislike Perrin when he sacrificed his slow but sure approach for his headstrong rush to rescue Faile. I don't mind the fact that he did so, or that he felt a great urgency to do so. It was his abandoning of everything but that quest.

 

Cadsuane:

- I actually like Cadsuane. She might be arrogant, but since she opposes a lot of foolishness, she's in my good books.

 

Logain:

- This is actually an interesting point.

Logain's actions, taken in a vacuum, are appalling. But at the same time, they're no worse than Rand's. And you also have to consider how much was actually Logain's fault. From the way his character is presented, I doubt that he said, "I'm the Dragon Reborn. Go raze Ghealdan in my name." We can see that the rulers don't take kindly to Declared Dragons (whether False or Reborn), so at least some of the blame has to lie with the original King/Queen of Ghealdan trying to put him and his "rebellion" down.

(Oh, and the whole thing about the Reds? That was Siuan's plan, not his.)

 

 

Dont kid yourselves. If Rand and Egwene's genders were switched she would be universally hated and he would be regarded as a silly girl-power infomercial.

I agree. The hate Egwene gets now would be nothing compared to the hate she'd get as a male character.

 

If you don't believe me, reverse the genders in TSR where Egwene decides to hand Rand over to Elayne. People would have condemned male Egwene for treating his girlfriend like an object to be given away to his best male bud.

 

Or reverse the genders in FoH where Egwene repeatedly attempts to spy on Rand's dreams and is annoyed when she can't, vowing that she'll eventually succeed. People would have called male Egwene a disgusting creep for trying to spy on his ex-girlfriend's dreams.

 

Exactly. For that matter try and picture the hate, say, Mattin Stepaneos would get if he kept Min locked in the palace of Illian, held her at knife point, tied her down, had his way with her and then had his guards prevent her from leaving and refused to feed her until she capitulated to his advances. Murderous doesn't begin to cover it. The readers would be calling for his slow and painful death. I know I would be. Yet when Tylin does it... laughs aplenty.

 

IMO, too many people have difficulty seeing sexual predjudice as something that effects anyone other than females, even in a setting where it was men who "ate the forbidden fruit."

 

These three posts are the best posts in this thread so far.

[capuga]

I would say I'm sick and tired of the neo-feminist bullshit that leads to threads like this (yay! Let's all go march in our underwear up the highstreet calling ourselves sluts! That's what our mothers fought for!) But I am more worried by the fact that so many young women seem to view the likes of Egwene as a powerful woman and rolemodel.

 

So how do you really feel JP

 

Mystica asks a perfectly legitimate question and somehow I don't think comments like this really help the situation.

 

Mystica asked a perfectly legitimate question (Would you feel the same if the genders were reversed?) but followed it up with character synopses that reflect his/her own biases. And it is perfectly reasonable to call bull$hit when that happens.

 

Would I like a character who displayed "rare levels of humility in order to grow, blah, blah, blah" if that character were male? Sure, probably. At least if that character did not also display extreme levels of arrogance, hypocrisy and gender chauvinism. And I might find that hypothetical male character sympathetic, interesting and well-developed, if he didn't embody pretty much every trait on the Mary-Sue checklist, with the possible (we don't know for sure yet, until AMoL comes out) exception of sleeping with Captain Kirk.

 

If we were to accept Mystica's one-sided descriptions of the players, it would be difficult to argue that anything but gender bias was at work in our dislike of Egwene and Cadsuane. But I don't accept her descriptions, which are shallow and biased.

 

I would ask Mystica to consider how much she would love a fictional organization, exclusively male, which views the world through a 3000-year-old lens of unjustified self-regard and misogyny. Would she consider that organization to be praiseworthy? Would she consider a character willing to submit himself to the apprenticeship rituals of such an organization to be a model of humility?

 

Jon Paul's comment is a really quite reasonable reaction to a vile personal insult. Yeah, that's right. Mystica's post, and others like it, are personally insulting to other posters. When I post a thread not complimentary of Egwene, I don't suggest that anyone who likes her is a man-hater. To post these sort of long "explorations" purporting to uncover the personal motivations of other posters is personally insulting in a way that discussions of the characters entirely within the context of the story is not.

 

How should personal insults like Mystica's be dealt with?

 

I'm going to say that I mostly agree with randsc here (although I didn't find the original post personally insulting, just hypocritical) as my first reaction was to laugh a bit that a post that seemed to call out others for their gender bias described the characters either positively or negatively on a straight gender line. I wonder if Mystica would be more sympathetic to Rand if he was a women? I would guess yes based on the tone of that post. I might be wrong about that, but that's how that post comes across.

 

That said, I'll actually try to answer to question. My guess is, yes, I would probably feel differently. I think for the most part I like/dislike characters based on their personal characteristics but I do have to admit that, being a man, I tend to relate to male characters more than female. It's easier for me to see things from their point of view. I think that's just natural. As an American, I would likely relate more to a character that believes in capitalism rather than communism. I think our gender, culture, etc can't help but influence how we view others (even fictional characters).

[Kahsm]

She is implying that anyone who disagrees with her view of the characters must be a sexist. Yes, that is a vile personal insult. Just as it would a vile personal insult to claim anyone disagreeing with her was a racist.

 

There are other tacks she could have taken that would not have been as vile, even if still insulting. Suggesting that people weren't reading carefully enough, for example. Or even that people lacked the experience necessary to see what she sees.

 

But to impute a sexist motivation to her opponents is vile. She deserves to be called on it.

 

She did no such thing. Threads are long enough, how bout you reply to what's written instead of what you think is squeezed between the lines. It does explain a lot of your totally off the mark interpretations of what goes on in the books. Maybe you're too "careful" a reader.

[David Selig]

Logain's actions, taken in a vacuum, are appalling. But at the same time, they're no worse than Rand's.

Not really. Rand didn't want to start any wars so he can prove himself as the Dragon, unlike Logain, who really as far as we know had no indications at all that he's the Dragon apart from being able to channel. Even after it was 100% clear he's the Dragon after he got Callandor, Rand still refused to attack Illian despite what Moiraine wanted and he only led the Aiel to Cairhien to stop the Shaido invasion.

 

As for Cadsuane - I never said she's not believable as a character, in fact given her centuries of bossing everyone her behaviour is quite natural, but that does not mean she's not grating and annoying and that her approach to Rand is the right one.

[Kahsm]

Logain's actions, taken in a vacuum, are appalling. But at the same time, they're no worse than Rand's.

Not really. Rand didn't want to start any wars so he can prove himself as the Dragon, unlike Logain, who really as far as we know had no indications at all that he's the Dragon apart from being able to channel. Even after it was 100% clear he's the Dragon after he got Callandor, Rand still refused to attack Illian despite what Moiraine wanted and he only led the Aiel to Cairhien to stop the Shaido invasion.

 

As for Cadsuane - I never said she's not believable as a character, in fact given her centuries of bossing everyone her behaviour is quite natural, but that does not mean she's not grating and annoying and that her approach to Rand is the right one.

 

Hard to argue with results!

[SylvanFox]

 

So basically... Though she has her head in books a lot I feel like she's the one that's most obsessed with him. Elayne loves him and thinks of him often, but she runs her country just fine without him even though she's carrying his twins, and doesn't whine about it nearly as much as Min would. We haven't been able to see the world through Aviendha's point of view much, but the glimpses we have gotten show her trying to figure out a future for her people and her place in the world. She thinks about her future with Rand and such but isn't obsessed with him. Min has been with him far more than either of the others and that's because Rand is basically all she has to her life.

 

 

Min also doesn't rule a country or... whatever exactly it is the Wise Ones rule. She was just a commoner, doing common things (except for those viewings). Laundry. Scooping horse shit. Why wouldn't the Dragon Reborn be the most important part of her life? She was pretty bored with life before he came along, and since then everything has changed drastically. Anything else that was remotely important in her life was left behind in Baerlon.

[Hybrid]

Logain's actions, taken in a vacuum, are appalling. But at the same time, they're no worse than Rand's.

Not really. Rand didn't want to start any wars so he can prove himself as the Dragon, unlike Logain, who really as far as we know had no indications at all that he's the Dragon apart from being able to channel. Even after it was 100% clear he's the Dragon after he got Callandor, Rand still refused to attack Illian despite what Moiraine wanted and he only led the Aiel to Cairhien to stop the Shaido invasion.

 

Yeah. I was thinking of the consequences of Rand's actions and neglected to think of his actions themselves when I wrote that bit. I'd intended to make the same distinction that Mystica made for Logain (separating actions from intentions), but you're right, they're not really comparable.

 

I'm not sure how I stand with Logain. The Asha'man Logain seems noble, but it's hard to square that with the False Dragon Logain.

[Mystica]

wow.... and yet again, we come to the reason why I avoid participating in these boards most of the time. It's good to see that some at least don't take everything as a personal insult and recognise a post for what it's meant to be.

 

Ok *deep breath*, I'll try again to explain the reason behind my post (eventhough I did already in previous posts, but either some are too eager to start throwing accusations around or it's just been lost in the masses).

 

As said, my question comes from my PERSONAL perception of the posts made on these boards. Where it appeared that a HIGHER level of hatred towards the females than the males was displayed. So I was curious if there would be a difference if the genders were reversed. If we would see a HIGHER level of hatred towards males than females (and consequently a higher level of tolerance towards the females, for those who want the full package).

 

I used the 4 EXAMPLES as a summary of that perception that I gathered up from reading these boards since 2006.

 

Yes, I'm female, but in case you're wondering about my level of sexism, let me give you a list of my favorite characters in decending order:

 

1. Mat Cauthon (note: the one who doesn't take any crap from àny female, no matter who she is)
   
2. Moiraine
   
3. Logain (yes, Logain. I love how he doesn't bow and scrape to the DR and that he's threating his bonded AS better than they deserve. Doesn't change what he's done as a False Dragon, but since I don't have clear evidence of those events I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and judge him by what I know him for since we met him in the books)
   
4. Cadsuane (up to the last two books. She just didn't feel the same to me in those)
   
5. Rhuarc (note: the one who will threat any female like a child if she doesnt act like an adult should)
   
6. Talmanes (I love his sense of humor)
   
7. Thom Merrilin (note: the one who will plot and scheme to have anyone (male or female) killed to further his plans)
   
8. Gareth Brihn (note: the one that makes a former Amyrlin wash his small cloths and has no quarrel to put her over his knee if need be)
   
9. Siuan (from after she got stilled, though personally I thought she made a kick-ass Amyrlin too but not at the level of Egwene later)
   
10. Alise Tenjile (the one who runs the farm for the Kin.)
    
11. Verin
    
12. Amys
    
13. Egwene (I always admired her eagerness to learn, but she had a bit of growing up to do before I actually started liking her for real. In TGS she was brilliant, in TOM she was crap (again, my personal opinion))
    
14. Silviana Brehon (Egwene's Keeper)
    
15. Nynaeve (after she got married and after she met Alise. Couldn't stand her before that)
    

 

this list is nowhere complete, but I think (at least I hope) I made my point. If not, it's midnight and I'm wrapping this up for today and I'd like to respond to David still.

 

I never said anyone should follow my opinions, nor did I make any personal insult. As Kael says, stop reading things between the lines because you're drawing conclusions that are just ridiculous.

 

 

For those of you that call me hypocritical or saying im insulting people. I'm pretty sure this post will be cause for more accusations again, but I honestly can't be bothered by them anymore. I'll reply to any post that's on topic, but I'm not going to be dragged in to a mud-slinging contest. If you knew me a little, you'd know how utterly ridiculous those accusations are.

 

 

@ David

 

As for Cadsuane - I never said she's not believable as a character, in fact given her centuries of bossing everyone her behaviour is quite natural, but that does not mean she's not grating and annoying and that her approach to Rand is the right one.

 

I hear ya'. All I'm saying is that most posts anti-Cadsuane don't seem to take in to account her personal history, experience and so on. And her approach to him wasn't the right one, as we all know. But it was a necessary one, given the outcome. Without it, he'd probably never have reached the point that would lead him to VOG. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and the Pattern moves all the pieces in the direction they need to go. That includes mistakes that must be made in order for certain things to be set in motion. Rand, for instance, needed to become Dart Rand in order to form that connection with Moridin. It didn't make him likeable, it didn't make him look smart or very savior-y. But it was needed in order for other pieces to fall in place. He's been more than grating and annoying in the 2 mesely years he's at it. And so have the others (both the males and females, btw, for those thinking im picking on boys again). I could have kicked his butt gladly, but I never hated him. I always tried to understand where he came from, what he had to go through, the weight he was carrying. And I guess that's my point with Cadsuane and Egwene. It's one thing to not like what they're doing, but to outright label them as nothing more than power hungry selfserving cats is completely ignoring where they came from. And that doesn't seem fair to me. (btw, I'm not saying you did that David. Again, this is my perception of the many anti-Cad/Egwene posts I've noticed over the years)

What she did when Tam confronted her was utterly out of character (in my opinion) and I was horrified and I applauded TAM (not Cads) for how HE handled it.

 

Every time Mat puts one of the Aes Sedai squarely in her place I laugh and I root for HIM. Not for the females, for him. Because he's brilliant in so many ways. He's got his priorities straight, does what needs to be done, has zero interest in titles and positions, will give credit to whomever it's due (no matter who that someone is) and has a heart of gold (much to his own dismay) to boot.

 

Sorry David, if my reply is a bit chaotic. It's rather late and I have to get up in 4 hours again. *grmbls @ work*

Just wanted to get to it before going to bed.

[Skeeve the Great]

..

[Vambram]

I think it is very interesting that Mystica did not place Rand al`Thor within her top 15 favorite characters. It really just boggles my mind, because he is the main protagonist of the WOT, without whom the Light has absolutely ZERO chance at defeating the Dark One.

[randsc]

She is implying that anyone who disagrees with her view of the characters must be a sexist. Yes, that is a vile personal insult. Just as it would a vile personal insult to claim anyone disagreeing with her was a racist.

 

There are other tacks she could have taken that would not have been as vile, even if still insulting. Suggesting that people weren't reading carefully enough, for example. Or even that people lacked the experience necessary to see what she sees.

 

But to impute a sexist motivation to her opponents is vile. She deserves to be called on it.

 

She did no such thing. Threads are long enough, how bout you reply to what's written instead of what you think is squeezed between the lines. It does explain a lot of your totally off the mark interpretations of what goes on in the books. Maybe you're too "careful" a reader.

 

She certainly did.

 

Maybe you just have a tendency toward simplistic interpretations.

 

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...and sometimes it's not.

[Kahsm]

She is implying that anyone who disagrees with her view of the characters must be a sexist. Yes, that is a vile personal insult. Just as it would a vile personal insult to claim anyone disagreeing with her was a racist.

 

There are other tacks she could have taken that would not have been as vile, even if still insulting. Suggesting that people weren't reading carefully enough, for example. Or even that people lacked the experience necessary to see what she sees.

 

But to impute a sexist motivation to her opponents is vile. She deserves to be called on it.

 

She did no such thing. Threads are long enough, how bout you reply to what's written instead of what you think is squeezed between the lines. It does explain a lot of your totally off the mark interpretations of what goes on in the books. Maybe you're too "careful" a reader.

 

She certainly did.

 

Maybe you just have a tendency toward simplistic interpretations.

 

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...and sometimes it's not.

 

You should at least ask for clarification before you accuse people of saying things that are not actually there. You have this notion that people accuse others of being sexist if they dislike Egwene, and you brought it up when no one else has. You can clearly disagree with her character summary and still answer the question based on your own, as many have done without being called sexist. Only your "magical powers" seem to see what no one else does.

[Hybrid]

Let's be fair to randsc here. I think you're reacting more to the strength of his accusation (and by association Jon Paul's post) as opposed to the accusation itself.

 

From what I've been able to deduct, there seems to be an overwhelming tendency to judge the females in the books much harsher than the males. The amount of 'hate' threads going up is quite interesting. Especially in an age where we all pretend to stand for equality. It shows a rather interesting view of our 'real' opinions, burried underneath the politically correct facades.

 

I wonder how you all would feel if the genders of the characters were reversed. Not that I ever expect an honest answer to that, but it would be interesting to see.

 

Can you honestly look at this and not see that it is reasonable for someone to infer an accusation of sexism?

 

(Let me be clear on my position. I'm not offended by the premise. I think it's an interesting question. But I can see where randsc is coming from.)