Egwene should be doing more in the borderlands.

[Kahsm]

Her job is not to deal with Rand..atleast not anymore than what any Monarch's job is to deal with Rand..she and the AS are another organization who need to follow and help Rand as he wishes like any of the other entities in Randland. They are not of equal footing..the Dragon leads the LB not the Amyrlin.

 

Her job isn't to fall down and worship the Dragon either. She's meant to be one of the best informed people alive

Maybe she's meant to, but she isn't. She is in fact very, very badly informed, but sadly very sure that she knows everything.

 

She's meant to be challenging him, looking for answers etc. That's the best way she can help.

 

Before she challenges him (or anyone else for that matter), shouldn't she do her homework first? Have we seen her study old writings on the seals (btw. "watcher of the seals" is a joke, not to mention the usurpation) or the Breaking, talk to the Browns or Rand about it? Have we seen her read the Dragon prophecies the way we've seen Rand do it? Since we have not, Egwene is not in the position to question or challenge Rand or anybody else who has at least given some thought and time to the subject.

 

It does not cease to amaze me that so many posters somehow accept the premise that the title of Amyrlin somehow gives its bearer the qualifications to deal with anything, some automatic englightenement at least equivalent to VoG for Rand.Rand's expertise and gifts are tailor-made for the Last Battle and the sealing. Egwene dealt with other things, learned other things, gained her experience in other things. Rand could as well challenge her dreaming methods or her knowledge of the Aes Sedai.

 

As to the subject of the thread , the Aes Sedai have been sitting in their ivory tower for years. Even Siuan was not able to change that. I don't blame Egwene for continuing the same attitude, especially since her worldview is in fact so narrow and concentrated mainly on the White Tower.

 

It does not cease to amaze me that a particular poster doesn't understand the point of the like 80 posts that inform him that she set the blue eyes-and-ears on getting more information, and that this poster can't figure out how that stands in stark contrast to their opinion that she's, "very sure that she knows everything".

 

I was going a little off-topic, more on general Egwene's attitude and not particularly in reference to the Borderlands. So while the Blues's eyes-and-ears could provide helpful there - and it is still very, very little action from a person who is seen by some on the boards as the best candidate for the world leader - they are absolutely useless in other areas where Egwene deemed it appropriate to take a firm stand without any supporting expertise (e.g. the sealing of the Bore).

 

Egwene's "know-it-all" attitude has been noticed and commented on in dozens of posts, even those by her fans, so a certain poster is kindly asked to allow me to stand by my opinion that Egwene's faith in her knowldege is not nearly as limited as it should be, to put it very mildly.

 

It does not cease to amaze me that so many posters somehow accept the premise that the title of Amyrlin somehow gives its bearer the qualifications to deal with anything, some automatic englightenement at least equivalent to VoG for Rand.Rand's expertise and gifts are tailor-made for the Last Battle and the sealing. .

 

This is part of it, Egwene has no idea that Rand has had enlightenment. Would you rather he be some despot that everyone is afraid to stand up to or question? As to Rand's expertise and the sealing you are forgetting that he isn't very enlightened on that subject. He has admitted that he doesn't know how to do it and has asked Min to find him the answer. Why not ask the WT to help as well?

 

I don't think that Rand shouldn't be questioned and challenged nor that he should have absolute power. I simply ask that Egwene, before challenging him, do her homework and at least try to learn something about it instead of assuming that the Amyrlin knows everything and should have a decisive influence on a very difficult thing she knows absolutely nothing about.

 

Egwene was basing her decision on her dream - which was ambigous - and biased and imperfect information that she got maybe as far back as book 1 (some rudimentary info on the Bore from Moiraine). We have seen not a single sentence with Egwene reading about the Bore, asking about the Bore or even thinking how the Sealing had been done.

 

You point out Rand's imperfect knowledge, but you have to admit he knows four things:

1. how he sealed the Bore in the first place.

2. that it went wrong.

3. that he is the one chosen by the pattern (Creator?) for this job and given special gifts in order to make victory of the Light possible

4. His general One Power knowledge is much more sophisticated than Egwene's .

 

All these points are relevant when we talk about the Bore. Egwene knows only point 2, which is universal knowledge. We could well say that in this area she is "a person from the street", her opinion is important only because of her office, not because of its merit.

 

Rand asked Min for help because of her expertise in Fel's philosophy and interpreting the prophecies. Rand respects Fel's philosophy because of "clear the rubble" point resonated with his own thoughts on the subject. So let Egwene bring in some valuable input instead of knee-jerk confrontation and Rand will be definitely obliged to hear her out.

 

Egwene has a lot of holes in her knowledge. Those holes were purposely left there by the DR, but because she leads the Aes Sedai she cannot do nothing, wait, or just go along with his plan when one of those holes is how insane he may be. So she sent the eyes-and-ears out to investigate, which is probably a very conservative move. But for all she knows, she may very well need to restrain a taint-mad DR at FoM and she'll need every single sister to do it (if they even could).

 

Edit: Just wanted to add the Eyes and Ears thing was related to the borderlanders. obviously she's being less-than-conservative regarding Rand's plan for the seals, but that's off-topic.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Her job is not to deal with Rand..atleast not anymore than what any Monarch's job is to deal with Rand..she and the AS are another organization who need to follow and help Rand as he wishes like any of the other entities in Randland. They are not of equal footing..the Dragon leads the LB not the Amyrlin.

 

Her job isn't to fall down and worship the Dragon either. She's meant to be one of the best informed people alive

Maybe she's meant to, but she isn't. She is in fact very, very badly informed, but sadly very sure that she knows everything.

 

She's meant to be challenging him, looking for answers etc. That's the best way she can help.

 

Before she challenges him (or anyone else for that matter), shouldn't she do her homework first? Have we seen her study old writings on the seals (btw. "watcher of the seals" is a joke, not to mention the usurpation) or the Breaking, talk to the Browns or Rand about it? Have we seen her read the Dragon prophecies the way we've seen Rand do it? Since we have not, Egwene is not in the position to question or challenge Rand or anybody else who has at least given some thought and time to the subject.

 

It does not cease to amaze me that so many posters somehow accept the premise that the title of Amyrlin somehow gives its bearer the qualifications to deal with anything, some automatic englightenement at least equivalent to VoG for Rand.Rand's expertise and gifts are tailor-made for the Last Battle and the sealing. Egwene dealt with other things, learned other things, gained her experience in other things. Rand could as well challenge her dreaming methods or her knowledge of the Aes Sedai.

 

As to the subject of the thread , the Aes Sedai have been sitting in their ivory tower for years. Even Siuan was not able to change that. I don't blame Egwene for continuing the same attitude, especially since her worldview is in fact so narrow and concentrated mainly on the White Tower.

 

It does not cease to amaze me that a particular poster doesn't understand the point of the like 80 posts that inform him that she set the blue eyes-and-ears on getting more information, and that this poster can't figure out how that stands in stark contrast to their opinion that she's, "very sure that she knows everything".

 

I was going a little off-topic, more on general Egwene's attitude and not particularly in reference to the Borderlands. So while the Blues's eyes-and-ears could provide helpful there - and it is still very, very little action from a person who is seen by some on the boards as the best candidate for the world leader - they are absolutely useless in other areas where Egwene deemed it appropriate to take a firm stand without any supporting expertise (e.g. the sealing of the Bore).

 

Egwene's "know-it-all" attitude has been noticed and commented on in dozens of posts, even those by her fans, so a certain poster is kindly asked to allow me to stand by my opinion that Egwene's faith in her knowldege is not nearly as limited as it should be, to put it very mildly.

 

It does not cease to amaze me that so many posters somehow accept the premise that the title of Amyrlin somehow gives its bearer the qualifications to deal with anything, some automatic englightenement at least equivalent to VoG for Rand.Rand's expertise and gifts are tailor-made for the Last Battle and the sealing. .

 

This is part of it, Egwene has no idea that Rand has had enlightenment. Would you rather he be some despot that everyone is afraid to stand up to or question? As to Rand's expertise and the sealing you are forgetting that he isn't very enlightened on that subject. He has admitted that he doesn't know how to do it and has asked Min to find him the answer. Why not ask the WT to help as well?

 

I don't think that Rand shouldn't be questioned and challenged nor that he should have absolute power. I simply ask that Egwene, before challenging him, do her homework and at least try to learn something about it instead of assuming that the Amyrlin knows everything and should have a decisive influence on a very difficult thing she knows absolutely nothing about.

 

Egwene was basing her decision on her dream - which was ambigous - and biased and imperfect information that she got maybe as far back as book 1 (some rudimentary info on the Bore from Moiraine). We have seen not a single sentence with Egwene reading about the Bore, asking about the Bore or even thinking how the Sealing had been done.

 

You point out Rand's imperfect knowledge, but you have to admit he knows four things:

1. how he sealed the Bore in the first place.

2. that it went wrong.

3. that he is the one chosen by the pattern (Creator?) for this job and given special gifts in order to make victory of the Light possible

4. His general One Power knowledge is much more sophisticated than Egwene's .

 

All these points are relevant when we talk about the Bore. Egwene knows only point 2, which is universal knowledge. We could well say that in this area she is "a person from the street", her opinion is important only because of her office, not because of its merit.

 

Rand asked Min for help because of her expertise in Fel's philosophy and interpreting the prophecies. Rand respects Fel's philosophy because of "clear the rubble" point resonated with his own thoughts on the subject. So let Egwene bring in some valuable input instead of knee-jerk confrontation and Rand will be definitely obliged to hear her out.

 

Egwene has a lot of holes in her knowledge. Those holes were purposely left there by the DR, but because she leads the Aes Sedai she cannot do nothing, wait, or just go along with his plan when one of those holes is how insane he may be. So she sent the eyes-and-ears out to investigate, which is probably a very conservative move. But for all she knows, she may very well need to restrain a taint-mad DR at FoM and she'll need every single sister to do it (if they even could).

 

Well, if she wants to make any good moves, she needs to learn two very important things: first, the Taint was cleansed and second, Rand is not insane. Since Rand had left her abruptly (which I didn't like because he could have easily explained some things to her instead of manipulating her) she should have turned to the best sources of said information she had access to - Nynaeve and other sisters connected to Rand, the Wise Ones, Elayne...She is a Dreamer and she can travel. Instead she dismisses Nynaeve's info and opinions out of hand and sends eyes-and-ears, which is a very conservative and inadequate approach.

Edit: Just wanted to add the Eyes and Ears thing was related to the borderlanders. obviously she's being less-than-conservative regarding Rand's plan for the seals, but that's off-topic.

I thought so, I went off-topic so you attacked my point maybe a little more severly than you would have if you'd understood it properly - which you would have had I stayed on topic, so the fault is mine

[lilltempest]

Well, if she wants to make any good moves, she needs to learn two very important things: first, the Taint was cleansed and second, Rand is not insane. Since Rand had left her abruptly (which I didn't like because he could have easily explained some things to her instead of manipulating her) she should have turned to the best sources of said information she had access to - Nynaeve and other sisters connected to Rand, the Wise Ones, Elayne...She is a Dreamer and she can travel. Instead she dismisses Nynaeve's info and opinions out of hand and sends eyes-and-ears, which is a very conservative and inadequate approach.

 

The reason Rand had to manipulate her, rather than explain things to her and try to reason things out with her, is something that is obvious in your last sentence. She dismisses Nynaeve's info and opinions because they disagree with what Egwene thinks. She would have done the same to Rand, in person, only to a greater degree. He knows from past experience that reasoning with her is impossible for him - the two of them are like water and oil. They don't mix.

 

Rand knows that she would see what she wanted to (just like all she saw with him in the Waste was that he was arrogant and everything was always his fault and she had to "take him down" a few pegs because he's too stupid to know what to do), so it would have been a waste of his time to actually talk to her. Had he asked her to gather everyone, she would have fought him - if, for no other reason, than because he suggested it (especially since she was trying to prove a point to all the AS that she would be the one to lead, not him). Instead, he had to manipulate her into doing what he wanted. And it worked like a charm. I'm curious to see how he handles her at FoM - if she gets everyone to turn against him, will he cave? And if people take his side, I think it will drive her batshit crazy and she'll either threaten to bring the WT's wrath down on anyone who won't turn against him or leave, swearing to stop him one way or another.

[XXX]

Her job is not to deal with Rand..atleast not anymore than what any Monarch's job is to deal with Rand..she and the AS are another organization who need to follow and help Rand as he wishes like any of the other entities in Randland. They are not of equal footing..the Dragon leads the LB not the Amyrlin.

 

The problem is Rand is STILL percieved as mad... What he proposed to Egwene in front of the entire Hall didn't help in that respect.

 

Would you follow someone you thought was mad to battle even if he wasn't?

 

That is ignorance on the AS's part..because the seals have to be broken, even blacksmith Perrin can see it right away.

[Kahsm]

Well, if she wants to make any good moves, she needs to learn two very important things: first, the Taint was cleansed and second, Rand is not insane. Since Rand had left her abruptly (which I didn't like because he could have easily explained some things to her instead of manipulating her) she should have turned to the best sources of said information she had access to - Nynaeve and other sisters connected to Rand, the Wise Ones, Elayne...She is a Dreamer and she can travel. Instead she dismisses Nynaeve's info and opinions out of hand and sends eyes-and-ears, which is a very conservative and inadequate approach.

 

The reason Rand had to manipulate her, rather than explain things to her and try to reason things out with her, is something that is obvious in your last sentence. She dismisses Nynaeve's info and opinions because they disagree with what Egwene thinks. She would have done the same to Rand, in person, only to a greater degree. He knows from past experience that reasoning with her is impossible for him - the two of them are like water and oil. They don't mix.

 

Rand knows that she would see what she wanted to (just like all she saw with him in the Waste was that he was arrogant and everything was always his fault and she had to "take him down" a few pegs because he's too stupid to know what to do), so it would have been a waste of his time to actually talk to her. Had he asked her to gather everyone, she would have fought him - if, for no other reason, than because he suggested it (especially since she was trying to prove a point to all the AS that she would be the one to lead, not him). Instead, he had to manipulate her into doing what he wanted. And it worked like a charm. I'm curious to see how he handles her at FoM - if she gets everyone to turn against him, will he cave? And if people take his side, I think it will drive her batshit crazy and she'll either threaten to bring the WT's wrath down on anyone who won't turn against him or leave, swearing to stop him one way or another.

 

"Had he asked her to gather everyone, she would have fought him - if, for no other reason, than because he suggested it". Oh come on, there isn't a shred of evidence she has opposed anyone just for the sake of opposing them. It's also a bit much to argue he's pig headed and stubborn but that she'll change her opinion on a whim just to oppose someone...

 

I think I should start a "outlandish things people have said about Egwene" quote database.

[Suttree]

Instead, he had to manipulate her into doing what he wanted. And it worked like a charm.

 

Lilltempest, I've seen you call down Egwene many times for being manipulative and not treating her friends with respect. Much like how you didn't mind Nynaeve being bossy, curious to see if you don't find any fault in Rand for deciding to handle it this way?

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Her job is not to deal with Rand..atleast not anymore than what any Monarch's job is to deal with Rand..she and the AS are another organization who need to follow and help Rand as he wishes like any of the other entities in Randland. They are not of equal footing..the Dragon leads the LB not the Amyrlin.

 

The problem is Rand is STILL percieved as mad... What he proposed to Egwene in front of the entire Hall didn't help in that respect.

 

Would you follow someone you thought was mad to battle even if he wasn't?

 

That is ignorance on the AS's part..because the seals have to be broken, even blacksmith Perrin can see it right away.

 

And Perrin knows it how? He's supporting Rand in whatever Rand does because he trusts Rand. The AS don't.

[csarmi]

Her job is not to deal with Rand..atleast not anymore than what any Monarch's job is to deal with Rand..she and the AS are another organization who need to follow and help Rand as he wishes like any of the other entities in Randland. They are not of equal footing..the Dragon leads the LB not the Amyrlin.

 

This is just plain stupid. Rand is not the creator. Even if he were that, people would be still right to seek what's best and mind their own business.

No one has to follow Rand.

 

Rand is an Aes Sedai. HE should be serving all, not all should be serving him.

Besides, he'd been acting stupid for two years. Made many mistakes just like everyone else.

 

YOU didn't learn the lesson from Cadsuane (they're human). Rand did.

[Ala Rubra]

That is ignorance on the AS's part..because the seals have to be broken, even blacksmith Perrin can see it right away.

 

And Perrin knows it how? He's supporting Rand in whatever Rand does because he trusts Rand. The AS don't.

 

That's not the only reason he's supporting Rand. He's also doing it because Rand's intentions make sense to him, a blacksmith. He even gives a blacksmith-related analogy.

 

I'm just surprised that Nynaeve didn't make a healing-related analogy. After all, if a broken bone sets wrong, you have to break it again in order to let it heal right.

[AquilaInfernus]

Just like to thank Mat's Spare Hat for finding that quote about Egwene and the Hall's division of power.

 

I love the way everyone thinks Egwene actually has the full authority of the White Tower. She doesn't. Half her actions require compromise and manipulation of the Hall to get an approximation of what she wants done. She can't even jump around travelling everywhere herself because of that Law of War. Almost all the Sitters and no few of the Aes Sedai believe she is merely a figurehead to be manipulated.

 

I think we can sum up the main arc of this topic that Egwene does not have the means, strength or information at her disposal to attempt a rescue of the Borderlands.

 

Off topic, her opposition to Rand's plan to break the seals is logical with the information she had, regardless of whether she was (mis)informed or not. We know Rand played her, but we also know that it is down to the trust of the Asha'man whether one believes the taint is cleansed. Nyneave only discovered it was possible to remove the taint in ToM.

[FarShainMael]

Nyn knew before that.. she helped Rand Cleanse the taint from saidin! But your point remains valid.

[AquilaInfernus]

I should edit for clarity...

 

Nyneave discovered how to remove residual taint from Asha'man in ToM.

 

I wonder if this will result in Taim's unveiling as a Darkfriend or precipitate the cleansing of the Black Tower?

[Kahsm]

I should edit for clarity...

 

Nyneave discovered how to remove residual taint from Asha'man in ToM.

 

I wonder if this will result in Taim's unveiling as a Darkfriend or precipitate the cleansing of the Black Tower?

 

I wonder if 13x13ed people have a similar brain thing and can actually be healed in a similar way...?

[Charlz Guybon]

You all ever notice that in the same chapter whence Egwene learns of the Borderlands being invaded, that it's the Hall that's given authority, by vote, over the forces of the Tower?

 

As to say in the very same hour, when Egwene first learns of invasion in the Borderlands, it has become the duty of the Hall to prosecute War.

 

It's on the Hall, not Egwene. Chapter 27, ToM.

The Hall was given authority over the Tower army, not the Aes Sedai. Nothing stops Egwene from sending a group of Green sisters to the Borderlands, or at the very least proposing it to the Hall. The Borderlands would have more use of Aes Sedai who can provide gateways and Healing as well as kill Shadowspawn more easily than soldiers.

 

 

And yet it'd be completely irresponsible to send a group of sisters, without the support of massed armed forces into the most massive invasion since the Trolloc Wars, having no clue as to the disposition of Borderland forces, the whereabouts of those currently in command authority, the location of said forces (turns out they're south of southbumblecrap), or for that matter the location of where said invasion forces are invading from, precisely.

 

As for providing gateways & healing...Common, people want to see them blow sh*t up and nuke the bejesus out of Trollocs, like Rand in ToM. If that doesn't smack of active offensive involvement in armed conflict, the role of which Aes Sedai would play on such a stage against Trollocs & Shadowspawn, aka the Armed Forces of the White Tower...They're part of the army bbuuuuuuddy *Paulie Shore reference

 

Who's in charge of the Army again? Why hasn't the Hall from sent the forces of the Tower to the Borderlands?

 

When it comes down to it, Egwene & the Hall are acting just as Aes Sedai across history have since the Breaking. Before & during the Trolloc Wars, organizing the Compact of 10 Nations, Tamra Ospenya organizing the Grand Alliance for the Battle of the Shining Walls at the end of the Aiel War, Egwene banding together nations & massing forces in support for the Last Battle.

 

You want to see Aes Sedai die real quick? Send groups of AS to the Borderlands, who we know don't have the ability or strength in the power to affect the kind of outcome that it's shown very very few channelers alive do posses, having no clue where to go, who to trust, who's in charge, who's friendly, where the bad guys are coming from, and without an Army, on the eve of if not the opening quarter of TG...

 

I dunno about you people, but if I were a darkfriend/black ajah/trolloc/fade/evil doer, I'd be smacking my lips at the prospect of isolated dipsticks dumb enough to venture out like nincompoops.

 

For craps sake fellas, the Borderlands aren't the be all/end all of Tarmon Gai'don. Would you rather dictate how the Last Battle starts, or decide how it's going to end.

No need to send out isolated groups. If the Tower was smart they'd send Bryne and his 50,000 men along with 50 Aes Sedai to Arafel to aid that kingdom. A force like that should easily be able to crush an army of 100k Trollocs.

 

Transport them outside the capital, that's where you're most likely to find information on how the military situation is. Use that information to plan the next move.

 

Chubain probably managed to raise at least half as many men, so it's not like Tar Valon would be left undefended, especially with all the Aes Sedai and new novices in the city.

[randsc]

 

You want to see Aes Sedai die real quick?

 

Yes, please.

 

If every Aes Sedai now living has to die, in order for the Dark One to be destroyed, I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

 

Actually, if every Aes Sedai now living has to die, in order for the Dark One to be slightly inconvenienced, I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

[Lacanos]

You all ever notice that in the same chapter whence Egwene learns of the Borderlands being invaded, that it's the Hall that's given authority, by vote, over the forces of the Tower?

 

As to say in the very same hour, when Egwene first learns of invasion in the Borderlands, it has become the duty of the Hall to prosecute War.

 

It's on the Hall, not Egwene. Chapter 27, ToM.

The Hall was given authority over the Tower army, not the Aes Sedai. Nothing stops Egwene from sending a group of Green sisters to the Borderlands, or at the very least proposing it to the Hall. The Borderlands would have more use of Aes Sedai who can provide gateways and Healing as well as kill Shadowspawn more easily than soldiers.

 

 

And yet it'd be completely irresponsible to send a group of sisters, without the support of massed armed forces into the most massive invasion since the Trolloc Wars, having no clue as to the disposition of Borderland forces, the whereabouts of those currently in command authority, the location of said forces (turns out they're south of southbumblecrap), or for that matter the location of where said invasion forces are invading from, precisely.

 

As for providing gateways & healing...Common, people want to see them blow sh*t up and nuke the bejesus out of Trollocs, like Rand in ToM. If that doesn't smack of active offensive involvement in armed conflict, the role of which Aes Sedai would play on such a stage against Trollocs & Shadowspawn, aka the Armed Forces of the White Tower...They're part of the army bbuuuuuuddy *Paulie Shore reference

 

Who's in charge of the Army again? Why hasn't the Hall from sent the forces of the Tower to the Borderlands?

 

When it comes down to it, Egwene & the Hall are acting just as Aes Sedai across history have since the Breaking. Before & during the Trolloc Wars, organizing the Compact of 10 Nations, Tamra Ospenya organizing the Grand Alliance for the Battle of the Shining Walls at the end of the Aiel War, Egwene banding together nations & massing forces in support for the Last Battle.

 

You want to see Aes Sedai die real quick? Send groups of AS to the Borderlands, who we know don't have the ability or strength in the power to affect the kind of outcome that it's shown very very few channelers alive do posses, having no clue where to go, who to trust, who's in charge, who's friendly, where the bad guys are coming from, and without an Army, on the eve of if not the opening quarter of TG...

 

I dunno about you people, but if I were a darkfriend/black ajah/trolloc/fade/evil doer, I'd be smacking my lips at the prospect of isolated dipsticks dumb enough to venture out like nincompoops.

 

For craps sake fellas, the Borderlands aren't the be all/end all of Tarmon Gai'don. Would you rather dictate how the Last Battle starts, or decide how it's going to end.

No need to send out isolated groups. If the Tower was smart they'd send Bryne and his 50,000 men along with 50 Aes Sedai to Arafel to aid that kingdom. A force like that should easily be able to crush an army of 100k Trollocs.

 

Transport them outside the capital, that's where you're most likely to find information on how the military situation is. Use that information to plan the next move.

 

Chubain probably managed to raise at least half as many men, so it's not like Tar Valon would be left undefended, especially with all the Aes Sedai and new novices in the city.

 

 

50,000 men are very unlikely to defeat 100,000 Trollocs even with 50 Aes Sedai. There's a quote from...Bashere I believe after the attack on the manor unless memory fails, although I'll look it up later, about outnumbering them two or three to one to be sure not to go into their cookpots [paraphrased obviously]. And Bryne doesn't have his experience at fighting Trollocs.

[Hadilmir]

No need to send out isolated groups. If the Tower was smart they'd send Bryne and his 50,000 men along with 50 Aes Sedai to Arafel to aid that kingdom. A force like that should easily be able to crush an army of 100k Trollocs.

 

Transport them outside the capital, that's where you're most likely to find information on how the military situation is. Use that information to plan the next move.

 

Chubain probably managed to raise at least half as many men, so it's not like Tar Valon would be left undefended, especially with all the Aes Sedai and new novices in the city.

I agree with you, 50,000 men and 50 Aes Sedai could hold off an army of 100,000 trollocs given proper fortifications. However, you're forgetting the Dreadlords, trebuchets, draghkar, and otherwise dirty tricks employed by the Shadow. Find your nearest middle-aged woman and ask yourself this, "Does she know anything about warfare?". The answer is probably a resilient "No". Could she mow down a group of thugs with an automatic weapon? Perhaps. Could she do the same if the thugs also had automatic weapons? ...Not a chance. You guys are overestimating the fighting ability of nearly all Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai would be best used as healers and in circles that contain Asha'man. Sending them anywhere without Asha'man would be suicidal, it's that simple.

[David Selig]

I think your underestimating the Aes Sedai's capabilities. They held their own at Dumai's Wells against vastly superior numbers of Shaido until the Asha'man came.

[Hadilmir]

I think your underestimating the Aes Sedai's capabilities. They held their own at Dumai's Wells against vastly superior numbers of Shaido until the Asha'man came.

 

Perhaps, I feel that the wagons and warders/Younglings were large factors as well. Which is why I agreed with Charlz's point, given proper fortifications they can definitely hold their own.

[Durinax]

I think your underestimating the Aes Sedai's capabilities. They held their own at Dumai's Wells against vastly superior numbers of Shaido until the Asha'man came.

 

Perhaps, I feel that the wagons and warders/Younglings were large factors as well. Which is why I agreed with Charlz's point, given proper fortifications they can definitely hold their own.

didnt the AS just create a giant wall, to hold off the shaido until they grew weak from maintaining the weave

[Hadilmir]

didnt the AS just create a giant wall, to hold off the shaido until they grew weak from maintaining the weave

 

Nah, go read chapter 55 of LoC if you have it with you, it'll make more sense than the following explanation. They basically pulled the wagons into a circle and stuck Aes Sedai and Younglings in the gaps between each wagon with the leftover (I think there were 36 total?) blocking the Shaido channelers' attacks from the middle. You're thinking of the Asha'man who created the dome of Air when they took the camp.

[Charlz Guybon]

I think your underestimating the Aes Sedai's capabilities. They held their own at Dumai's Wells against vastly superior numbers of Shaido until the Asha'man came.

 

Perhaps, I feel that the wagons and warders/Younglings were large factors as well. Which is why I agreed with Charlz's point, given proper fortifications they can definitely hold their own.

There were only 300 Younglings. With 50,000 soldiers lead by Bryne, wagons and fortifications wouldn't be necessary. They could maneuver and defeat Trollocs in the field of battle.

[Hadilmir]

There were only 300 Younglings. With 50,000 soldiers lead by Bryne, wagons and fortifications wouldn't be necessary. They could maneuver and defeat Trollocs in the field of battle.

You missed the point of my post. The Shadow will not fight fair. A single male dreadlord could cause unspeakable havoc to a bunch of female channelers simply because he is undetectable until it's too late. Then the army of 50,000 is stuck facing 100,000 with only half as many Aes Sedai. In short- they are doomed. Because of one male channeler. To make matters worse, the usefulness of Aes Sedai is destroyed by maneuvering, they can only efficiently attack trollocs that haven't reached the battle yet, otherwise they are picking off targets a few at a time and will quickly become exhausted.

 

 

I simply disagree with your assessment of how useful Aes Sedai are in large scale battles. If you don't plan to reevaluate your views on this then it'd be a waste of time to read the rest of my post because it assumes you'll see my point. Just a friendly warning

 

 

Even discounting dirty tricks- On an open field of battle, it would not take long at all for the trollocs to reach the soldiers' lines unless some sort of shenanigans involving crossbows goes on (i.e. Mat bloody Cauthon). 50 fireballs the size of houses couldn't stop that mass of trollocs but so long, no matter how fast they're thrown and no unaided Aes Sedai could even hope to weave those. When the trollocs reach the army, things get messy. The trollocs will break the line of any army eventually; how well trained the men are is what determines how long. Once the fighting is that close, large efficient fireballs risk friendly fire. The Aes Sedai are forced to pick their targets and also shelter against trolloc arrows. Their usefulness is severely hampered and by this point, weaving Fire and Air will have tired most of the Aes Sedai. The battle is a disaster and becomes a rout as soldiers who've never seen trollocs before panic and myrddraal strike fear into their hearts. 100,000 trollocs is simply too much for an open battle with untested troops. You saw how well Ituralde did for that short time on flat ground. Those were Borderlanders against trollocs, it be much more like the Whitecloaks being ambushed on a larger scale.

 

The problem with the Aes Sedai method of fighting stems from their reliance on fireballs and lightning. They do not think tactically, they need those choke-points for their methods to succeed. Against a mass of trollocs, there are no choke-points. Perhaps Egwene would think to rend the ground before the trolloc horde or use larger scale attacks, but that is just her Seanchan training showing through. Aes Sedai have been walled up too long for this nonsense, they have much better uses than being tossed in a mobile army. Or atleast train them first lol

[David Selig]

So one male Dreadlord can kill 25 Aes SEdai? Are you serious? Even Demandred or Sammael will have trouble achieving that, and some run of the mill Dreadlord has no chance to do it.

 

And of course, they won't face up the Trollocs on an open field and just throw fireballs. They'd use the huge advantage in mobility which Travelling gives them to harass the Trollocs and they'll use the fortifications build in the Borderlands to their advantages, just like Ituralde did.

[Kahsm]

So one male Dreadlord can kill 25 Aes SEdai? Are you serious? Even Demandred or Sammael will have trouble achieving that, and some run of the mill Dreadlord has no chance to do it.

 

And of course, they won't face up the Trollocs on an open field and just throw fireballs. They'd use the huge advantage in mobility which Travelling gives them to harass the Trollocs and they'll use the fortifications build in the Borderlands to their advantages, just like Ituralde did.

 

 

While I agree that dreadlords will be as mediocre as the average Asha'man/Aes Sedai lets remember that few can actually travel, and most would tire very fast doing it. It just seems ubiquitous because all the main guys are relatively uber.

 

Other than that I agree. There's no reason to think the shadow's channelers are any stronger. They may have more AoL tricks, but they will be pretty green too.