Are Amirlyn and Empress equal?

[pilgram]

XXX47 had posted, some time ago very interesting topic Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?. To answer to it here, no I don’t think they are. First is political office, a head of organization of magic users and a state that they had established, a head of a superpower that dominated its (very isolated) part of world for millennia. Second is a messiah, a prophesied savior of the world, an occurrence unprecedented in Age, who on top of his metaphysical clout have acquired control of significant part (perhaps greater part) of first’s territory (sphere of influence) and have much greater resources at his disposal.

Reading 20+ pages of discussion I started to wonder: perhaps it would more appropriate to compare position of Amirlyn to some other political position? Well, it would certainly be interesting. So there it is: are Amirlyn and Empress equal? If yes, why? If no, then which is more important and again why? And if you want to ad what makes institution, group, or character important in series – even better.

[rcfleming4]

Well in this instance we certainly know that the Empress doesn't think so!

 

I don't think so either, the Empress certainly has more military power directly available, more political clout and more channelers. How much land does the Empress control? The Amyrlin?

[SylvanFox]

Let's watch 'em duke it out and we'll know.

[buckeyebull64]

They don't recognize each other's authority, so neither one is going to differ to the other. in terms of military might, advantage Seanchan. In terms of societal advancement and knowledge, advantage White Tower.

[AshaShan]

On one hand a city state with influence rather than control over half a continent, a continent that has regressed since the days of Hawkwing. On the other hand an Empire that controls an entire continent and fields a massive army that has retained the expertise of the best military period of the Age. Power and influence-wise I'm gonna have to say the Empress owns the Amyrlin.

 

On the one hand a group of slavers who see torture and execution of foreign dignitaries as an appropriate response to refusal to swear everlasting obedience to the Empress. On the other hand a group of self-absorbed fools convinced of the inherent superiority of their order, but who usually refrain from killing people for meeting their eyes and not bowing low enough. Much as it pains me to say it, I'm gonna have to give the Amyrlin the moral edge over the Empress.

 

Lastly, on an individual basis I'd say they are remarkably similar. Tough, willful, intelligent channelers (though one refuses to learn how). Ambitious, power-hungry and prone to bouts of self-delusion. Tuon has the advantage in hand to hand combat, Egwene has the advantage in channeling however and since channeling beats boxing every time she has to win that comparison.

 

All told? The Empress is more important than the Amyrlin as a political position and that fact, coupled with the Empire being even more corrupt that the hated White Tower, means she is one of the few people who could ever make me want the Amyrlin the win.

[XXX]

The Empress holds more military power..the Amyrlin holds more political power in Randland.

[Suttree]

On the other hand an Empire that controls an entire continent

 

What continent would that be? Chaos abounds and a murderer rules openly in Seandar. The only thing Tuon controls is Altara along with parts of Tarabon & Amadacia.

[rand4747]

she would have a larger army and more channelers than the white tower.

 

Order is probably: Rand>Seanchan>White Tower

 

Rand is sort of a special case, he has more channelers but most are fairly useless. White tower is also a special case, 3 oathes, but even without that seeanchan is probably superior. Rand armys are probably the largest of any group aswell. But Rand at least now is probably capable of destroying entire armys of the others and their channelers if they bunched up close enough :P

 

Anyway seanchan aswell as no oathes to cause hesitation train their channelers and armys for war. Tar Valon is not exactly a warlike state either :P (Seanchan always have alot of rebellions to put down)

[XXX]

Seachan have the strongest army in Randland..I dare say even stronger than the Dragon's armies if Rand is not in the field.

While Rand's armies have the Asha'man to counter the damane, the damane actually train to fight along with the regular troops, the Asha'man train to fight on their own not in conjunction with huge armies.

[capuga]

Seachan have the strongest army in Randland..I dare say even stronger than the Dragon's armies if Rand is not in the field.

While Rand's armies have the Asha'man to counter the damane, the damane actually train to fight along with the regular troops, the Asha'man train to fight on their own not in conjunction with huge armies.

 

Rand also has the Aiel and the Wise Ones and 50 to 100 Aes Sedai that are sworn to him or bonded to Asha'man. Rand's armies are much larger and stronger than the Seanchan with or without him in the field. But the Seanchan would really put up a tough fight if Rand wasn't in the field.

[XXX]

Rand's channelers don't train to fight with the regular army, the Seachan have been training for hundreds of years...training is everything.

[capuga]

Rand's channelers don't train to fight with the regular army, the Seachan have been training for hundreds of years...training is everything.

 

Yet the Asha'man were more than holding their own against the damane in Altara.

[Suttree]

Rand's channelers don't train to fight with the regular army, the Seachan have been training for hundreds of years...training is everything.

 

The Green's are said to be quite knowledgeable in military strategy. We know in the Trolloc Wars Sisters were attached to "banners" as a general military practice. Quite sure the Green's have studied that thoroughly. While they wouldn't have as much experience as the Seanchan I would doubt if the tactics weren't in place. Also recall at Dumai's Wells the quote about the Green striding amongst the soldiers like the "Queen of Battles" or some such. As for the Ashaman they integrated just fine in the tPoD campaign. Combined with soldiers they pretty much spanked the Seanchan and didn't take major casualties until Rand over stepped himself against Bashere's advice.

[randsc]

In the usual course of affairs, certainly not. Given the chaos in Seanchan at the moment, maybe.

 

Seanchan as it existed at the time we first encountered it was far more powerful than any Randland country, and very likely more powerful than ALL Randland countries. Since the Empress controlled Seanchan absolutely, including all of its military might and all of its organized channelers, she was certainly more powerful than the head of one organization of channelers in Randland, with relatively little direct military power.

 

The current Empress isn't truly Empress, however. She controls Seanchan occupied lands on this side of the Ocean only. Which still makes her one of the two or three most powerful people in the world, but is she 2, or 3? It's an arguable point.

[randsc]

Rand's channelers don't train to fight with the regular army, the Seachan have been training for hundreds of years...training is everything.

 

The Green's are said to be quite knowledgeable in military strategy. We know in the Trolloc Wars Sisters were attached to "banners" as a general military practice. Quite sure the Green's have studied that thoroughly. While they wouldn't have as much experience as the Seanchan I would doubt if the tactics weren't in place. Also recall at Dumai's Wells the quote about the Green striding amongst the soldiers like the "Queen of Battles" or some such. As for the Ashaman they integrated just fine in the tPoD campaign. Combined with soldiers they pretty much spanked the Seanchan and didn't take major casualties until Rand over stepped himself against Bashere's advice.

 

Suttree, I understand. Really. XXX47 is for you what Elan is for most of the rest of us. But you know perfectly well that the "Battle Ajah" has been given ample opportunity in the books to show itself worthy of its name, and has utterly failed to do so.

[lilltempest]

The Green's are said to be quite knowledgeable in military strategy. We know in the Trolloc Wars Sisters were attached to "banners" as a general military practice. Quite sure the Green's have studied that thoroughly. While they wouldn't have as much experience as the Seanchan I would doubt if the tactics weren't in place. Also recall at Dumai's Wells the quote about the Green striding amongst the soldiers like the "Queen of Battles" or some such.

 

Any respect I had for the Green Ajah was nullified by their poor showing during the Seanchan raid at the WT. I know that the entire scene was plot driven to make Egwene look awesome, but that's the problem with making other characters look bad in order to make one look awesome - the other characters look bad, period, not just "in comparison". If the Greens suddenly turn into awesome generals and incredibly adept at battle, I'm going to roll my eyes. You can't make a group of characters look that pathetic and inept (and have their leader so easily cowed by a mere child), then expect me to believe that they are suddenly "Queens of Battle". The whole Ajah is nothing but a joke now.

 

In answer to the topic, I think the Amyrlin and the Empress are, for the most part, equal. I don't think the Amyrlin would agree (certainly, she would see herself as above the Empress and think the woman should kneel and kiss her ring like everyone else) but their functions are similar, the only difference being that the Empress wields direct power over everyone and the Amyrlin wields (in theory) indirect power. That said, the Amyrlin wishes to wield direct power, and given the fear that the leaders of the Westland hold of the Amyrlin's (and WT's) wrath, it's direct enough. The current Amyrlin even wishes to remove a newly crowned king for not being obedient enough to her whims. Despite their fairly equal footing, I won't be the least bit surprised if Tuon ends up bending knee to Egwene and Egwene gets to be "empress" in function, if not in name.

[Kahsm]

Because since you've long since made up you mind, it's unfathomable to consider that greens might be good when they finally let Egwene actually lead them. I get it.

[capuga]

Because since you've long since made up you mind, it's unfathomable to consider that greens might be good when they finally let Egwene actually lead them. I get it.

 

Or perhaps it's the fact that we've seen very little evidence in the books that the Greens are actually any good at being the Battle Ajah. Little indication that they train much in the tower, little indication that they help much in the borderlands, they got an absolutely humbling beat down from the Seanchan, etc. Could they become good? Would a good leader help? Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that they have not lived up to their billing thus far.

[Kahsm]

Because since you've long since made up you mind, it's unfathomable to consider that greens might be good when they finally let Egwene actually lead them. I get it.

 

Or perhaps it's the fact that we've seen very little evidence in the books that the Greens are actually any good at being the Battle Ajah. Little indication that they train much in the tower, little indication that they help much in the borderlands, they got an absolutely humbling beat down from the Seanchan, etc. Could they become good? Would a good leader help? Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that they have not lived up to their billing thus far.

 

Except for all the borderlanders who would have the most cause to dislike them if they were as overrated as they may appear to us. Which is still irrelevant because they would have no idea how to fight seanchan. Cads did a good job organizing the hill defense for the cleansing, so it's not unlikely Egwene will take a more direct roll in organizing Aes Sedai for non-shadowspawn conflicts.

[Suttree]

Rand's channelers don't train to fight with the regular army, the Seachan have been training for hundreds of years...training is everything.

 

The Green's are said to be quite knowledgeable in military strategy. We know in the Trolloc Wars Sisters were attached to "banners" as a general military practice. Quite sure the Green's have studied that thoroughly. While they wouldn't have as much experience as the Seanchan I would doubt if the tactics weren't in place. Also recall at Dumai's Wells the quote about the Green striding amongst the soldiers like the "Queen of Battles" or some such. As for the Ashaman they integrated just fine in the tPoD campaign. Combined with soldiers they pretty much spanked the Seanchan and didn't take major casualties until Rand over stepped himself against Bashere's advice.

 

Suttree, I understand. Really. XXX47 is for you what Elan is for most of the rest of us. But you know perfectly well that the "Battle Ajah" has been given ample opportunity in the books to show itself worthy of its name, and has utterly failed to do so.

 

HAHA good call Randsc.

 

 

Let's look at it through the books. The WT was split, riddled with BA and a Forsaken and under Fain's influence. With divisions and undercurrents creating almost ideal circumstances they got trounced in a surprise attack by the Seanchan.

 

When else have we seen Greens fight? Cads pulling together a solid plan to route the forsaken. Dumai's Wells we have them integrated with Perrin's forces...

 

LoC

First to move were the Two Rivers men and Winged Guards, divided into two companies, one surrounding Wise Ones afoot and the other mounted Aes Sedai and Warders

 

A moment later he saw Kiruna, face serenely unconcerned, striding like a queen of battles along a path carved for her by her three warders and the fires that leaped from her own hands

 

Have we ever even seen the Green fail aside from the Seanchan attack? One surprise raid lost and the whole Ajah is worthless? I would like someone to ask BS to explain what the AS who are with the borderland rulers roles are however. How do they help deal with incursions etc...

[Puny]

Rand's channelers don't train to fight with the regular army, the Seachan have been training for hundreds of years...training is everything.

 

The Green's are said to be quite knowledgeable in military strategy. We know in the Trolloc Wars Sisters were attached to "banners" as a general military practice. Quite sure the Green's have studied that thoroughly. While they wouldn't have as much experience as the Seanchan I would doubt if the tactics weren't in place. Also recall at Dumai's Wells the quote about the Green striding amongst the soldiers like the "Queen of Battles" or some such. As for the Ashaman they integrated just fine in the tPoD campaign. Combined with soldiers they pretty much spanked the Seanchan and didn't take major casualties until Rand over stepped himself against Bashere's advice.

 

Suttree, I understand. Really. XXX47 is for you what Elan is for most of the rest of us. But you know perfectly well that the "Battle Ajah" has been given ample opportunity in the books to show itself worthy of its name, and has utterly failed to do so.

 

 

 

HAHA good call Randsc.

 

 

Let's look at it through the books. The WT was split, riddled with BA and a Forsaken and under Fain's influence. With divisions and undercurrents creating almost ideal circumstances they got trounced in a surprise attack by the Seanchan.

 

When else have we seen Greens fight? Cads pulling together a solid plan to route the forsaken. Dumai's Wells we have them integrated with Perrin's forces...

 

LoC

First to move were the Two Rivers men and Winged Guards, divided into two companies, one surrounding Wise Ones afoot and the other mounted Aes Sedai and Warders

 

A moment later he saw Kiruna, face serenely unconcerned, striding like a queen of battles along a path carved for her by her three warders and the fires that leaped from her own hands

 

Have we ever even seen the Green fail aside from the Seanchan attack? One surprise raid lost and the whole Ajah is worthless? I would like someone to ask BS to explain what the AS who are with the borderland rulers roles are. How do they help deal with incursions etc...

 

I dk if they are good or bad... there have been nothing in the books to say they have been good or bad, except the Aes Sedai themselves. They just are. The point of the Borderlanders respecting the AS, thus making the Green sisters skilled fighters, I don´t understand how that conclusion is made.

Maybe the individual Aes Sedai is good, but as an Ajah.. hmm. Since there haven´t been need of fightingskills for the Greens in some time, they sure are rusty. So I would say... right now. No, the Green as an Ajah are not good at fighting.

[Kahsm]

So you think the borderlanders respect the greens less than the other Ajahs? Of course not. If anything they don't differentiate at all, therefore no Aes Sedai, or subgroup has turned them off.

 

I wasn't trying to prove they loved greens specifically, or more than others. Just that the borderlanders don't see the fail.

[Puny]

So you think the borderlanders respect the greens less than the other Ajahs? Of course not. If anything they don't differentiate at all, therefore no Aes Sedai, or subgroup has turned them off.

 

I wasn't trying to prove they loved greens specifically, or more than others. Just that the borderlanders don't see the fail.

 

Tbh Kael, I´m baffled why they still respect the Aes Sedai and how they don´t see the fail. They don´t come to the Borderlands to help them and they still have to pay tribute.

[XXX]

Rand's channelers don't train to fight with the regular army, the Seachan have been training for hundreds of years...training is everything.

 

The Green's are said to be quite knowledgeable in military strategy. We know in the Trolloc Wars Sisters were attached to "banners" as a general military practice. Quite sure the Green's have studied that thoroughly. While they wouldn't have as much experience as the Seanchan I would doubt if the tactics weren't in place. Also recall at Dumai's Wells the quote about the Green striding amongst the soldiers like the "Queen of Battles" or some such. As for the Ashaman they integrated just fine in the tPoD campaign. Combined with soldiers they pretty much spanked the Seanchan and didn't take major casualties until Rand over stepped himself against Bashere's advice.

 

 

The Green's of the Trolloc era are completely different from the Green's of today..for one they actually trained with various armies. In 13 books I never read about today's Green's ever training with anyone..not even with the Tower Guard. No wonder their captain was running around wringing her hands when the Seachan attacked the WT.

 

The more important handicap being the three oaths...the 3 oaths have made the Aes Sedai a completely useless military organization against non-shadowspawn opponents. Think about it..if a Seachan army and a AS backed army come face to face..the damane will stay behind the front lines and unleash hell while the AS will have to actively court danger to even start using the OP.It will not even be a contest.

 

The AS held their own against the Seachan mainly because they had travelling and the fact that Damane were unused to fighting men. It will be a more even battle next time especially as the Asha'man also do not train with armies.

[Kahsm]

So you think the borderlanders respect the greens less than the other Ajahs? Of course not. If anything they don't differentiate at all, therefore no Aes Sedai, or subgroup has turned them off.

 

I wasn't trying to prove they loved greens specifically, or more than others. Just that the borderlanders don't see the fail.

 

Tbh Kael, I´m baffled why they still respect the Aes Sedai and how they don´t see the fail. They don´t come to the Borderlands to help them and they still have to pay tribute.

 

Me either. But on the odd occasions that they did show up in the past while, I thinks it's safe to say they didn't cower, trip over their dress hems, or scream and run like novices, because I doubt borderlanders would put up with any of that. So some of them must be competent enough to keep reminding the BLers of the trolloc wars. If they went to war under Siuan or Elaida, I bet the BLers would be disappointed on whole. But Egwene could be our Joan of Arc.