Mafia Grievances

[Alanna]

Argh...I had typed out a whole long response here, and my computer restarted without telling me. So annoyed.

 

Anyhow. It's the mod's prerogative how they want to choose players for their games, whether it's open signups or invitation. It's not favorotism or elitism, it's actually intended to help newer player. Frankly, I think it's a little insulting to be calling Kivam an elitest when he's actually trying to help improve mafia here on DM. Lord knows we need some improvement.

 

It could be helpful to have vets play with newer players as well, but only if you had mostly vets with a few newer players. Otherwise the tactics of newer players dominate the game, and in my experience lately, those players aren't too interested in listening to what the few vets have to say about how they should/could be playing.

 

And when you do open signups, you simply don't get lots of vets signing up. You get a slew of newer players signing up, which, for all the reasons listed in this thread (which I pretty much agree with all around), probably deter older players from wanting to sign up. You can say whatever you like about that, but while older players want to teach newer players, they want to play a fun game of mafia, too. Which some older players are having a problem with these days, as noted by all the reasons in this thread.

 

I'm a little baffled by this response, actually. We've had invitation-only games here on DM before, and I never had a problem with them, whether I was invited or not, and I don't remember anyone else having an issue either.

 

Also, don't know if you all had confirmation on this, but when members of the Mod Council run a game that was not listed in the queue, it doesn't push back other games. They run at the same time as 2 other games in each queue. At least, that's what I've observed, so Jack's game shouldn't be delayed, I don't think.

 

*is getting very frustrated* We are trying everything humanly possible to teach people how to play this game, and nobody seems to appreciate all the effort. Maybe some of the others are right and we should just give up and stop playing here...

 

This is not about segregation. It's about teaching.

 

I don't think you're overreacting at all, I've been getting really frustrated lately as well, because most of my efforts to help newer players learn how to properly play seem to go in vain. It's making me want to stop playing as well. They don't think they need help, or don't agree, or want to play their own way. I had to get quite snippy in a recent game to make players understand that a random modkill on Day 1 was not the norm and not acceptable. They seemed to think that was up for debate

 

I'm sorry if my post here comes across as short in tone (it's mostly because I'm annoyed my computer ate my first post :D), but I've been getting incredibly frustrated playing mafia here lately. I don't think I'll give up DM mafia entirely, but I am thinking of playing somewhere else, for the first time in two years.

[LilyElizabeth]

Vam, I'm in the queue here on this board. I think there's only Amadine ahead of me, if memory serves. It should be fairly soon. I'd love to have you.

 

Edit - correction. There are two ahead of me.

[LilyElizabeth]

If anyone wants to read a game with some old style playing, check out this one.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/61404-80s-horror-movie-mafia-game-over-mafia-wins/

 

Keep in mind as you're reading that Jack and I are both mafia.

[Alanna]

Wow, I didn't realise there were so many older players in that game. Shows how much I know about what goes on in my Social Group. Yep

[Vambram]

Vam, I'm in the queue here on this board. I think there's only Amadine ahead of me, if memory serves. It should be fairly soon. I'd love to have you.

 

Edit - correction. There are two ahead of me.

 

Thank you, Lily.

[LilyElizabeth]

Wow, I didn't realise there were so many older players in that game. Shows how much I know about what goes on in my Social Group. Yep

There weren't a lot, but I'd like people to see the scam Jack and I pulled. It's the sort of thing I'd like to see pulled more. Nobody but Kivam has ever suckered me with it, and I'd love to see more people trying it.

[Barmacral]

If anyone wants to read a game with some old style playing, check out this one.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/61404-80s-horror-movie-mafia-game-over-mafia-wins/

 

Keep in mind as you're reading that Jack and I are both mafia.

 

 

Wow, I didn't realise there were so many older players in that game. Shows how much I know about what goes on in my Social Group. Yep

 

Clearly I'm old. You guys say that has old style play, but most of those players are too new for me to have played with them. *waves his cane around*

[LilyElizabeth]

The term "old" is clearly relative here..... heh.

[Leelou]

That is a newer crowd then when I was first here.

[Barmacral]

Its true, I'm from the fiddlesticks generation of mafia, the one that directly lead to this board being created, and I've only been around for about 1 game longer than Kiv has (he pulled the Kivam gambit on his second game). Originally we thought Raena was the one to introduce the game to the site, but really Sirayn and Quibby are from a generation that precedes mine by several years. Not that Sira plays anymore, sadly.

[WWWwombat]

Sirayn eats little children who don't do their mafia homework.

[Kivam]

Sirayn eats little children who don't do their mafia homework.

 

Yep. I'm actually prouder of my first ever game than of the Gambit game: I nailed Sirayn for putting a distancing vote on her teammate (Zyrshnikashnu) day 1 and then leaping off of him at the slightest excuse. Kison defended her and he got lynched Day 1, but we then nailed Sirayn and Zyr days 2 & 3 (in a 12 player, 3 scum game.

 

Vambram - I did worry that people would feel left out. But here's the thing. I haven't really run a mafia game on DM in a while, because the quality of play is so bad and players are so inactive. As a mod, it's literally painful. The last game I ran here I had to threaten to abandon mid-game before the players finally got their stuff together and avoided random lynches. Its just not fun for me. So I mod over at JN - where the players actually play, where a typical game runs thousands of posts, and where it's a fun game to mod.

 

I designed GoT for JN, and decided to ask a few players who I've had fun modding - and who I've missed, like Alys, Mynd, FDM and The Dude - to join in. I'm not only going to run invite-only games, and new folks get on the list of "people I'd like to play mafia with" all the time. But there was no way in hell I was running a game as large and complex as GoT as an open signup on DM; I put way, way, way too much work into the game design for that, considering how badly the last few games I ran here were treated. If that makes me an elitist, so be it. Just remember a few things: (1) I only had 26 spots. That's not enough for everyone I consider a good player, including some JN folks who got shut out of the game; and (2) just because I didn't invite you (generic) doesn't mean I think you're a bad player - just that I don't know you well enough (as a mafia player) to know whether you are a really really good player.

 

Last point, re learning: Yes, you can learn by playing with vets. But a lone veteran or two in a sea of inactive players is useless. Look at Christine's game: I and a few others were all but begging players to play, to vote and pressure before deadline. Instead, we've had two straight days of nothing, nothing, nothing, then a random rush at deadline. There's only so much you can learn by playing in a game like that - and unfortunately, what a lot of people have learned, is that that's how you play mafia. Watching an all vets game can be a much better teacher. It isn't enough on its own, but combine watching a few of those with playing some yourself, and that;s the best way to learn (it's like the best way to train a QB: Steve Young sitting behind, and learning from, Joe Montana, not JaMarcus Russell tossed into the fire on Day 1)

[Alanna]

If anyone wants to read a game with some old style playing, check out this one.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/61404-80s-horror-movie-mafia-game-over-mafia-wins/

 

Keep in mind as you're reading that Jack and I are both mafia.

 

 

Wow, I didn't realise there were so many older players in that game. Shows how much I know about what goes on in my Social Group. Yep

 

Clearly I'm old. You guys say that has old style play, but most of those players are too new for me to have played with them. *waves his cane around*

 

LOL yeah, when I said older players, I meant my mafia generation LOL. Which isn't that old... :D I reserve the term "vets" for players of your calibre, Barm

[Kivam]

Who's watching Game of Thrones? The game is barely more than 2 days old and only through Day 1, and it has 535 posts. That's only 5 short of Hollywood Mafia's 540 - and that game is on Day 5 and started 25 days ago. This is what active mafia ought to be like, and I'm not patting myself on the back, because it has nothing to do with me as a mod - this is all about the players. Get this group together with any game setup, and the posts will be this fast/furious.

[John E. Kelley]

Who's watching Game of Thrones? The game is barely more than 2 days old and only through Day 1, and it has 535 posts. That's only 5 short of Hollywood Mafia's 540 - and that game is on Day 5 and started 25 days ago. This is what active mafia ought to be like, and I'm not patting myself on the back, because it has nothing to do with me as a mod - this is all about the players. Get this group together with any game setup, and the posts will be this fast/furious.

 

I've been watching every post with my jaw hanging to the floor. The things these guys can see in a "Hey, how ya doin?" is amazing. I really can't see myself reaching that level of play. I've been trying to follow this thread and listening to what the better players have been saying could be done to improve gameplay here, and I've really been trying to follow their advice, but your game just blows my mind Kiv. The things they come up with is stuff I'd never see in a million years, even though after they say it and give reasons for it, it makes perfect sense then. Maybe I could get that good one day but that day is still a ways off. I just hope you guys don't give up on DM mafia before I have the chance to get there.

[LilyElizabeth]

Ishy, these guys are way beyond my level of play, too. heh

 

Thanks for being supportive of our trying to teach I just got very frustrated with people who don't seem to feel the need to learn anything, and your one comment turned my whole mood around. You are definitely going to get an invite to my upcoming game.

[Kathleen]

I get invite to lily? *puppy dog eyes*

[LilyElizabeth]

You betcha. You're on my autosignup list, and you know it, silly.

[Niniel]

I´m still in a learning process and get some help from more experienced players. (Thank you.) Just wanted to add to the discussion that in my first play (a newbie game) all had one experienced player as a mentor (and got a own qt). For me this was great. Even though I have improved since then it would still be cool to do it again. That time it was for people that never had played or played a lot. Maybe someone could do a new one for us that have played some games but still need to improve.

[Barmacral]

Who's watching Game of Thrones? The game is barely more than 2 days old and only through Day 1, and it has 535 posts. That's only 5 short of Hollywood Mafia's 540 - and that game is on Day 5 and started 25 days ago. This is what active mafia ought to be like, and I'm not patting myself on the back, because it has nothing to do with me as a mod - this is all about the players. Get this group together with any game setup, and the posts will be this fast/furious.

 

I've been watching every post with my jaw hanging to the floor. The things these guys can see in a "Hey, how ya doin?" is amazing. I really can't see myself reaching that level of play. I've been trying to follow this thread and listening to what the better players have been saying could be done to improve gameplay here, and I've really been trying to follow their advice, but your game just blows my mind Kiv. The things they come up with is stuff I'd never see in a million years, even though after they say it and give reasons for it, it makes perfect sense then. Maybe I could get that good one day but that day is still a ways off. I just hope you guys don't give up on DM mafia before I have the chance to get there.

 

You'll get there eventually. The key thing is to be active in all your games and don't be afraid to make mistakes. In one of my first games Sirayn pointed out some dumb moves another player made, and I jumped on that for about 4 game days of trying to get that person lynched. It was a solid case, as it happened, but I was wrong, the person was innocent. However I did learn a lot on how to identify scum-tells from that game. Even now when I play a game, talking to Kivam afterwards points out a variety of things that I missed to keep an eye out for afterwards.

 

And Lily under-sells herself. She talks about being way over her head in this game, but really I believe most of the players are, as its a bit of a novel concept for a game and most aren't really sure how to approach it yet. Some are just more vocal and better at hiding it than others. I'll expand more on this once the game is done I think.

 

But in any case, my point is, hang in there, don't let yourself get overwhelmed. Personally I never play more than one game at a time, and I've seen people who play several games at once neglect some games in favour of others, which harms the games themselves, as well as the players who are in too many and trying to keep up. Also feel free to discuss the game afterwards with the other players, note the things that you liked or disliked and ask them what they thought of your playstyle. Praise and critique will help everyone.

[Niniel]

I´m still in a learning process and get some help from more experienced players. (Thank you.) Just wanted to add to the discussion that in my first play (a newbie game) all had one experienced player as a mentor (and got an own qt). For me this was great. Even though I have improved since then it would still be cool to do it again. That time it was for people that never had played or hadn´t played a lot. Maybe someone could do a new one for us that have played some games but still need to improve.

 

I was tired yesterday when I wrote this so I just thought I should add some things. Many players are trying to be helpful during the games (like Lily) but we can never be sure it is help or if it is a part of the play. That is why it would be good to play with a mentor that you know are on your team.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i wonder if there might also be an option of a . . . less aggressive style of game, for people who don't find that kind of thing as much fun as others, but still might like to play the game, or try to play the game?

[WWWwombat]

You don't have to play an aggressive style if you don't want to. I prefer aggressive because I can make people slip up or cause confusion (depending on my alignment), but there are definitely less aggressive ways to play the game. Most of the JN crowd is aggressive and the loudest voices often drown out some of the others, but there are really good players who aren't aggressive in my opinion. Kivam just goes with pure logic being neither aggressive nor passive. Lily goes with such an agreeable personality that I'm always getting goosebumps waiting for the dagger to be planted in my back. Alanna also comes to mind as someone who is not aggressive. She doesn't post a lot, but read all her posts because she makes them count. Play the game with whatever style you want. You do have to knock people out of the game to win, but you don't have to be aggressive.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i've been watching the game, and reading this thread, and watching some of the other games. and honest, i wouldn't want to play in that kind of game with those kinds of players, sorry. i'm not trying to be rude, it would just upset me.

 

before this, i was lurking around a few games that did look like fun, and where there weren't a lot of insults being tossed around, and people seemed to just be having fun, and probably playing in a way that would annoy most of the rest of you guys.

 

what i'm asking is - are there people who would still prefer to play that way, or is it just going to be this way or nothing? can there maybe be different. . . leagues? one for slow, boring people like me who don't like to trash talk, and one for i guess most everyone else?

[WWWwombat]

Also, when reading the Game of Thrones game, keep in mind that the JN guys (Ape, CTM, Pac, etc.) insult each other somewhat as a mark of camaraderie. They are actually toning it down a lot from what they usually do. They never actually try to wound each other though.