Elayne - Caemlyn - the One Power

[Cutlass]

I'm in the middle of my re-read of KoD and (as painful as it is) I'm reading Elayne's chapters and asking myself, why she woulden't use the power to defend her position, (or her warder). Simply, this close to TG wouldn't it be in the best interest of all if she secured the rule of Andor (or even just Caemlyn) quickly and decisively.

 

Now I'm not saying she should use the one power as a weapon, and annihilate the contenders for the throne, but use some "Aes Sedai" intimidation. Flex the muscle a little bit and stop politicing so much. Fear is a great motivatior espicially for the mercenaries that seem to be figting on both side of the conflict. The ones that are on her side would be emboldened that they have the support of Aes Sedai, and the one power, and the aggressors would be intimidated by the fact that they may have to march into the wrath of angry sisters. (with the rumors of all the power fought battles since Cairhein fell to Rand, and the Seanchan in the west, Arymilla's mercenaries would be hard to push aginst that) and the other houses would be forced to go to her, like it or not. She could work out how to pacify them after the Last Battle.

 

And that brings me to my second point... she has free and easy access to Rand's armies (Aeil, and Bashere early on in the conflict) WTF was she thinking sending them all out of Caemlyn?? yes, foreign armies are not preferred, but if they are supporting the rightful queen during her rise, get over it!! if she wanted to send them away - trickle them out, as you train your own army. Then there would be NO REBELLION, no LONG and drawn out storyline waiting for the rest of the series to catch up to her. She could then have focused on the stash of Ter'angreal from Ebo Dar, and her original directive... catching the Black Ajah. The rebel houses would be reluctant, but would not try and fight a war they couldn't win, and the people would be left in a safer position... when the people are safe, and fed - they are not going to rebel.

 

Ultimatley the way I see it is like... You are going to bulild a house, you have a shed full of power tools, but you are only going to use a hammer and hand saw. It can be done, but why not use the tools you have?

 

Well thats my 2 cents...

[Smittyphi]

She is pregnant and cannot use the OP on a consistant basis. I'm sure Rahvin and Rand's battle are still fresh on people's mind and remember what the OP can do and may not be solidly behind Elayne if she used it instead of the traditional method.

 

As for Bashere and Rand, Andorans don't like formal alien armies. They hated the Aiel and Bashere. Bashere had to camp his men miles outside of the city. To me, it seems tradition is very important to Andorans and winning by gaining the support of the majority of the Houses is the key to maintaining that your house rules for a LONG time. She has to look to the future of her people after the Last Battle. Using foreign armies gives the impression that you are weak and you won't win the support of the people.

[Kahsm]

Well, Andor is basically a loosely elective monarchy. So it was "unconsitutional" (or whatever version of that Andoran's would say) to have a foreign ruler (Rand) conquer the country and just hand it over to Elayne. As much as XXX47 thinks everyone should already be willing to give up everything they ever believed or thought or agreed for Rand, that's not how things work in the real world.

 

However, I do agree it was not a good time for her petty political squabbles. Given that she IS the daughter of the previous queen, you'd think she'd be able to negotiate a "Queen Regent" type title with an agreement to hold a proper contest after TG. Would probably have to give some concessions, like some influential advisers from some strong houses, but it'd still have saved a lot of time.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Kael Pyralis

[Smittyphi]

However, I do agree it was not a good time for her petty political squabbles. Given that she IS the daughter of the previous queen, you'd think she'd be able to negotiate a "Queen Regent" type title with an agreement to hold a proper contest after TG. Would probably have to give some concessions, like some influential advisers from some strong houses, but it'd still have saved a lot of time.

 

Never would have happened. Morgase had her strongest supporters tortured by Rahvin's compulsion. Having been out of Andor for quite some time, she has not been the face of Andor. I doubt the any house would trust the daughter of Morgase enough to accept the role of influential underling just like that

[Cutlass]

However, I do agree it was not a good time for her petty political squabbles. Given that she IS the daughter of the previous queen, you'd think she'd be able to negotiate a "Queen Regent" type title with an agreement to hold a proper contest after TG. Would probably have to give some concessions, like some influential advisers from some strong houses, but it'd still have saved a lot of time.

 

Never would have happened. Morgase had her strongest supporters tortured by Rahvin's compulsion. Having been out of Andor for quite some time, she has not been the face of Andor. I doubt the any house would trust the daughter of Morgase enough to accept the role of influential underling just like that

 

 

They would only have to attend her in company with several Aes Sedai (Who by way of the 3 oaths cannot lie) and have revealed that Morgase was a pawn of one of the forsaken. The houses must be beginning to accept the fact that 1) the Dragon is Reborn, 2) the Forsaken are free, and 3) Tarmon Gaidon is close.

 

It is crazy to have the largest country on the continant in the middle of a Cival War - over slights the last queen (while under the influence of Ravhin) made in the few months prior to her dissappearance. Bearing in mind that she was a good queen by all accounts prior to the arrival of Ravhin. the only big challange should be the people. the Houses that are rebelling need to be set down quickly, and like it or not Rand's forces or the one power are the quickest/most effective way. Its easier to ask forgiviness or apoligise for mistakes after. Elayne should have pleanty of time after the LB - even if she does swear on the oath rod, she could potentially live to be 200-300 years old, without the rod she could hypothetically be queen for 500-600 years - she'll have lots of time to make up for the small transgression in taking power in a difficult situation. She has the tools she just need s to use them. (Egwene wouldn't think twice about it :D)

[randsc]

Besides, the fact that TG is on the horizon is an argument against a new, teenaged queen. Whatever title you want to give her.

 

What would have made sense is for Elayne to propose Dyelin in such a role. But the ambitions of queens, princesses and other such useless parasites is not to be denied by the prospect of something so minor as the end of the world.

[David Selig]

Elayne did propose Dyelin, but Dyelin refused.

 

Now I'm not saying she should use the one power as a weapon, and annihilate the contenders for the throne, but use some "Aes Sedai" intimidation. Flex the muscle a little bit and stop politicing so much. Fear is a great motivatior espicially for the mercenaries that seem to be figting on both side of the conflict.

How exactly? They already have seen the Gateways which were used extensively and were extremely helpful. If this didn't conince them, I don't see what else could've done it short of using the Power as a weapon.

[SuperFade]

It's very clear that most of the population of the Westlands have no idea how close the Last Battle is. Even those who should know better, such as the Aes Sedai, still cling to the belief that they have years, perhaps even decades to prepare for the Last Battle. Then there are those who are trying to ensure that the post Last Battle world is one worth living in. This is an admirable goal, but with the fatal flaw that unless the Last Battle is won by the Light all their efforts will have been for nothing. Essentially it's either wilful ignorance or misguided intentions.

[Suttree]

Agreed with the use of gateways. As for the rest it has been brought up many times but she could not be seen to use foreign soldiers or Rand's armies as she would not have even had Dyelin's support let alone the rest of Andor.

 

TPoD Ch28

“You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

 

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against?

 

If she had said yes to accepting the throne from the DR the answer would have been against.

 

We also have the POV from Bashere when he tells Gaul why they can't use foreign soldiers.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Suttree

[Ala Rubra]

Yeah, I'd say Elayne's mistake wasn't refusing the help of foreign armies, but gallivanting off when she knew that Andor was without a Queen.

[Din]

1) The effects of the existence of channelers on the way power is distributed is an important theme and if you missed it then I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

2) Elayne is more than capable enough to take the throne without using the power.

 

3) The Three Oaths would probably make it difficult.

 

4) Taking a country by force sets a bad precedent for the way people will expect you to deal with other nations and the people of your own nation.

 

4a) The people of a nation need to feel as if the country belongs to them rather than an invader, usurper or despot.

 

5) Elayne is an initiate of the White Tower and a representative of Aes Sedai. If Elayne where to take the throne by force then the immediate expectation of every other country would be that Aes Sedai intend to do the same to them. This would cause the nations to band together at war with Tar Valon kind of like they did in Hawkwing's day.

 

A better analogy would putting using a powered screwdriver to fix an antique watch. You might seem to achieve your goal a lot faster but the result wouldn't be worth having.

[Suttree]

Yeah, I'd say Elayne's mistake wasn't refusing the help of foreign armies, but gallivanting off when she knew that Andor was without a Queen.

 

Gallivanting off to save the world by fixing the weather? She put the overall good above her political aspirations and for that should be lauded.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Suttree

[Cutlass]

Agreed with the use of gateways. As for the rest it has been brought up many times but she could not be seen to use foreign soldiers or Rand's armies as she would not have even had Dyelin's support let alone the rest of Andor.

 

TPoD Ch28

“You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

 

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against?

 

If she had said yes to accepting the throne from the DR the answer would have been against.

 

We also have the POV from Bashere when he tells Gaul why they can't use foreign soldiers.

 

As a supporter of Rand I still think Elayne would have saved Caemlyn from the seige had she let his armies maintain a pressence (if even only for a short term of say 6-8 months) to give herself time to develope a force capable of holding her claim for the throne. Andor was not a conqured nation, and dispite his wording, Rand really wasn't giving it to her - he liberated it from one of the forsaken and made clear he had no intent of maintaing a power base there. I am positive he told Dylen the very same thing. She could have came to the city and began petitioning the noble houses - informing them that she is recalling the remainder of the queens guard, that the imposter Gaebril had indeed been Ravhin (of forsaken fame) and that she was alive and well and preparing Andor for the pending last battle.

 

Additionally.... I don't see the difference between the mercanaries that she has HIRED to defend the city (and her claim) draining the royal coffers, and the armies supported by Rand defending her position with out incurring as great a cost. Not to mention the aid of an experienced General in establishing a plan of action for a schedualed with drawl that would leave the city in the rightful queens proper hands. Indeed soem of the houses may be "upset" with the idea of less then a years occupation of foreign soliders on there home soil, but the surly wouldn't have raised arms aginst. and being a little "upset" is certainly better then civil war.

 

as far as using the power goes - yeah I may have forgot about her being preggars and not being able to channel thing - but if she was less hasty in sending the dragonsworn away it would have been a moot point.

[Suttree]

Agreed with the use of gateways. As for the rest it has been brought up many times but she could not be seen to use foreign soldiers or Rand's armies as she would not have even had Dyelin's support let alone the rest of Andor.

 

TPoD Ch28

“You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

 

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against?

 

If she had said yes to accepting the throne from the DR the answer would have been against.

 

We also have the POV from Bashere when he tells Gaul why they can't use foreign soldiers.

 

As a supporter of Rand I still think Elayne would have saved Caemlyn from the seige had she let his armies maintain a pressence (if even only for a short term of say 6-8 months) to give herself time to develope a force capable of holding her claim for the throne. Andor was not a conqured nation, and dispite his wording, Rand really wasn't giving it to her - he liberated it from one of the forsaken and made clear he had no intent of maintaing a power base there. I am positive he told Dylen the very same thing. She could have came to the city and began petitioning the noble houses - informing them that she is recalling the remainder of the queens guard, that the imposter Gaebril had indeed been Ravhin (of forsaken fame) and that she was alive and well and preparing Andor for the pending last battle.

 

Additionally.... I don't see the difference between the mercanaries that she has HIRED to defend the city (and her claim) draining the royal coffers, and the armies supported by Rand defending her position with out incurring as great a cost. Not to mention the aid of an experienced General in establishing a plan of action for a schedualed with drawl that would leave the city in the rightful queens proper hands. Indeed soem of the houses may be "upset" with the idea of less then a years occupation of foreign soliders on there home soil, but the surly wouldn't have raised arms aginst. and being a little "upset" is certainly better then civil war.

 

as far as using the power goes - yeah I may have forgot about her being preggars and not being able to channel thing - but if she was less hasty in sending the dragonsworn away it would have been a moot point.

 

 

You make some good points but we know the general sentiment in Andor at the time was very anti-DR and his armies staying. From Dyelin:

 

LoC

 

“I refuse still,” Dyelin answered in a strong voice, then turned to Rand. “I will wait and consider, my Lord Dragon. When I see Elayne alive and crowned, and you leave Andor, I will send my retainers to follow you whether anyone else in Andor does the same. But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I’ve heard they did in Cairhien and Tear”—she scowled at the Maidens and Red Shields, and the gai’shain too, as if she saw them looting and burning—“or you loose here those . . . men you gather with your amnesty, then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same.”

 

“And I will ride beside you,” Luan said firmly.

 

“And I,” Ellorien said, echoed by Abelle.

 

from commoners outside of Andor:

 

TPoD

He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway.”

 

&

 

And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

[dexterryu]

What about using the power to just make life a little more difficult on the assaulting armies? How about a non-stop thunderstorm over thier camp? Not using it as a weapon, but definitely a good way to make life more difficult on them. Lots of ways you could do this... also you can use the power to make noise... make it a constantly loud and obnoxious noise in and around their camp.

 

Also, what about just using the power to shield certain areas from arrows similar to what the Ashaman did at dumai's wells?

[XXX]

Once the OP is used against a non channeling group in battle then it is only a matter of time before every house,kingdom,noble has their own private channeling army. There is no need to send every woman to the WT or man to the BT.

 

Elayne was correct in not using the OP to win..it would be a short term victory but a disaster in the long term.

[XXX]

Well, Andor is basically a loosely elective monarchy. So it was "unconsitutional" (or whatever version of that Andoran's would say) to have a foreign ruler (Rand) conquer the country and just hand it over to Elayne. As much as XXX47 thinks everyone should already be willing to give up everything they ever believed or thought or agreed for Rand, that's not how things work in the real world.

 

 

The idiots of Randland do not even believe their own prophecies..the Dragon is supposed to break all the old bonds and loyalties.

 

It is no wonder Rand snapped at the end..if I were in his place going mad from the taint and destined to die for idiots not even appreciative, I would have balefired a whole lot of them a long time ago.

[mb]

The Three Oaths would probably make it difficult.

From the time of Egwene raising her, most of Elayne's actions since then have seemed to fit with the Oaths. Being actually bound to them would not have made a difference one way or the other.

[ironisles]

TPoD

He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway.”

 

&

 

And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

 

 

Wow.. do these people even know Rahvin was in charge at all? And driving the Aiel out? that woulda been fun to watch.

[Kahsm]

Besides, the fact that TG is on the horizon is an argument against a new, teenaged queen. Whatever title you want to give her.

 

What would have made sense is for Elayne to propose Dyelin in such a role. But the ambitions of queens, princesses and other such useless parasites is not to be denied by the prospect of something so minor as the end of the world.

 

For the greater good, I actually agree with this. Which is strange because randsc said it...

 

Just to distance myself, I'll suggest that since Dyelin supposedly supported Elyane, they could have made a deal to have Dyelin take the regent role, then support Elayne in the post-TG contest. Would even free up Elayne to be "Andoran Ambassador to the Dragon Reborn" and she could actually see him once in awhile.

[Suttree]

TPoD

He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway.”

 

&

 

And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

 

 

Wow.. do these people even know Rahvin was in charge at all? And driving the Aiel out? that woulda been fun to watch.

 

It would be pretty tough to bet against the Aiel. But Andor does have one of the largest armed forces in all of Randland, they can field 200,000 troops so it's not exactly an empty threat.

[ironisles]

It would be pretty tough to bet against the Aiel. But Andor does have one of the largest armed forces in all of Randland, they can field 200,000 troops so it's not exactly an empty threat.

 

 

They have that many as a standing army or is that everything they could pull together?

[Ala Rubra]

Yeah, I'd say Elayne's mistake wasn't refusing the help of foreign armies, but gallivanting off when she knew that Andor was without a Queen.

 

Gallivanting off to save the world by fixing the weather? She put the overall good above her political aspirations and for that should be lauded.

 

I disagree. Elayne was the only Daughter-heir of Andor, and thus, the only one who could 'rightfully' claim the throne of Andor. I don't believe there was anything she did in Ebou Dar that couldn't have been done by another Aes Sedai(or two).

[mb]

Any other Aes Sedia probably could have done her Ebou Dar actions. Yet very few seemed willing.

And had anybody else been sent to Ebou Dar in Elayne's & Nynaeve's places, many things there might have gone differently and maybe for the worse.

[Suttree]

It would be pretty tough to bet against the Aiel. But Andor does have one of the largest armed forces in all of Randland, they can field 200,000 troops so it's not exactly an empty threat.

 

They have that many as a standing army or is that everything they could pull together?

 

Everything they could pull together, which would include some half trained troops. There are the Queens Guard plus each individual noble maintains a standing army and can also call upon levies in times of crisis.