Elayne - Caemlyn - the One Power

[Mr Ares]

Agreed with the use of gateways. As for the rest it has been brought up many times but she could not be seen to use foreign soldiers or Rand's armies as she would not have even had Dyelin's support let alone the rest of Andor.

 

TPoD Ch28

“You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

 

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against?

 

If she had said yes to accepting the throne from the DR the answer would have been against.

 

We also have the POV from Bashere when he tells Gaul why they can't use foreign soldiers.

 

As a supporter of Rand I still think Elayne would have saved Caemlyn from the seige had she let his armies maintain a pressence (if even only for a short term of say 6-8 months) to give herself time to develope a force capable of holding her claim for the throne. Andor was not a conqured nation, and dispite his wording, Rand really wasn't giving it to her - he liberated it from one of the forsaken and made clear he had no intent of maintaing a power base there. I am positive he told Dylen the very same thing. She could have came to the city and began petitioning the noble houses - informing them that she is recalling the remainder of the queens guard, that the imposter Gaebril had indeed been Ravhin (of forsaken fame) and that she was alive and well and preparing Andor for the pending last battle.

 

Additionally.... I don't see the difference between the mercanaries that she has HIRED to defend the city (and her claim) draining the royal coffers, and the armies supported by Rand defending her position with out incurring as great a cost. Not to mention the aid of an experienced General in establishing a plan of action for a schedualed with drawl that would leave the city in the rightful queens proper hands. Indeed soem of the houses may be "upset" with the idea of less then a years occupation of foreign soliders on there home soil, but the surly wouldn't have raised arms aginst. and being a little "upset" is certainly better then civil war.

 

as far as using the power goes - yeah I may have forgot about her being preggars and not being able to channel thing - but if she was less hasty in sending the dragonsworn away it would have been a moot point.

The difference between mercenaries and Dragonsworn is largely one of appearance, which is important. If she uses Rand's Dragonsworn, Aiel, etc., she looks like she needs his help to maintain the throne, whereas if she uses mercenaries, she looks like she's doing it on her own. The perception that she is being given the throne is harmful to her - definitely in the long term, but it won't necessarily help in the short either. What if her disloyal nobles decide to betray her at TG - the Light can still win, but Elayne gets knifed before she has a chance to win them over. Better to get off on the right foot, it solves all manner of problems.

 

 

Yeah, I'd say Elayne's mistake wasn't refusing the help of foreign armies, but gallivanting off when she knew that Andor was without a Queen.

Gallivanting off to save the world by fixing the weather? She put the overall good above her political aspirations and for that should be lauded.

I disagree. Elayne was the only Daughter-heir of Andor, and thus, the only one who could 'rightfully' claim the throne of Andor. I don't believe there was anything she did in Ebou Dar that couldn't have been done by another Aes Sedai(or two).

Firstly, when she left the situation in Andor was stable - there was no urgent need for a Queen. Secondly, in Elayne was one of two AS who had been on the need walk in T'a'r, so one of only two with a good idea what they were looking for. Even passing on everything she can remember runs the risk of missing something out. There was a dispute between the two anyway as to the number of stories the building had - it turns out Elayne was right. Had Nynaeve gone alone, she might well have spent all her time looking for a five storey building when they needed six, and bullied others into looking for that as well.

[David Selig]

Not to mention that mat only came to Ebou Dar because Elayne went there and he had promised Rand to stay close - if it was another Aes Sedai sent instead, he wouldn't have come, and without his ta'veren influence, who knows whether the Bowl would've been found at all in time.

[Manscher]

Can't really blame Elayne for going to Ebou Dar to find the bowl. You can however blame her for wasting over a month searching on their own instead of asking for Mats help, didn't Tanchico teach Elayne and Nynaeve that men can actually be quite useful at times? Woolheaded women ;P

[ironisles]

Can't really blame Elayne for going to Ebou Dar to find the bowl. You can however blame her for wasting over a month searching on their own instead of asking for Mats help, didn't Tanchico teach Elayne and Nynaeve that men can actually be quite useful at times? Woolheaded women ;P

 

 

That's one thing that is so infuriating about these books; women find men to be useless, even after they've been saved, rescued by them a dozen times. Doesn't make logical sense at all.

[Din]

Doesn't make logical sense at all.

And now you understand women :)

[XXX]

Can't really blame Elayne for going to Ebou Dar to find the bowl. You can however blame her for wasting over a month searching on their own instead of asking for Mats help, didn't Tanchico teach Elayne and Nynaeve that men can actually be quite useful at times? Woolheaded women ;P

 

 

That's one thing that is so infuriating about these books; women find men to be useless, even after they've been saved, rescued by them a dozen times. Doesn't make logical sense at all.

 

More infuriating is the men rescuing them..maybe that would bring them down couple of pegs

[Suttree]

Can't really blame Elayne for going to Ebou Dar to find the bowl. You can however blame her for wasting over a month searching on their own instead of asking for Mats help, didn't Tanchico teach Elayne and Nynaeve that men can actually be quite useful at times? Woolheaded women ;P

 

 

That's one thing that is so infuriating about these books; women find men to be useless, even after they've been saved, rescued by them a dozen times. Doesn't make logical sense at all.

 

More infuriating is the men rescuing them..maybe that would bring them down couple of pegs

 

What a chivalrous guy you are xxx...friends need to be brought down a few pegs? I've got just the thing, lets leave them in the hands of murderous DFs!

Edited July 17, 2011 by Suttree

[XXX]

What chivalry..when they consider themselves superior than wool headed men?

[randsc]

Yes, these particular friends needed to be brought down a few pegs. Not left in the hands of Darkfriends, obviously. But "brought down a few pegs" is a perfectly accurate description of the necessary corrective. It was eventually accomplished by Birgitte, of course.

[ironisles]

Ok regarding Andor's 200,000 man army- it would take months for them to get that many men together, trained and equipped. Not to mention you couldn't hide that many men. wouldn't be much of an issue to simply take the Aiel and rout

what army was already standing, and harry any attempt to form another army. These Andormen don't seem to take t he Aiel too seriously, similarly neither did the Tairens. They learned better though.

[randsc]

Ok regarding Andor's 200,000 man army- it would take months for them to get that many men together, trained and equipped. Not to mention you couldn't hide that many men. wouldn't be much of an issue to simply take the Aiel and rout

what army was already standing, and harry any attempt to form another army. These Andormen don't seem to take t he Aiel too seriously, similarly neither did the Tairens. They learned better though.

 

That is certainly correct. The Andorans had zero chance of removing the Dragon's forces. Even if they could unite, which there is no reason to believe that they would. People seem to forget that half the population of Caemlyn was ready to accept a king in Morgase's place.

[Muad Cheade]

Ok regarding Andor's 200,000 man army- it would take months for them to get that many men together, trained and equipped. Not to mention you couldn't hide that many men. wouldn't be much of an issue to simply take the Aiel and rout

what army was already standing, and harry any attempt to form another army. These Andormen don't seem to take t he Aiel too seriously, similarly neither did the Tairens. They learned better though.

 

That is certainly correct. The Andorans had zero chance of removing the Dragon's forces. Even if they could unite, which there is no reason to believe that they would. People seem to forget that half the population of Caemlyn was ready to accept a king in Morgase's place.

Refresh my memory...when was that stated?

[Suttree]

Ok regarding Andor's 200,000 man army- it would take months for them to get that many men together, trained and equipped. Not to mention you couldn't hide that many men. wouldn't be much of an issue to simply take the Aiel and rout

what army was already standing, and harry any attempt to form another army. These Andormen don't seem to take t he Aiel too seriously, similarly neither did the Tairens. They learned better though.

 

That is certainly correct. The Andorans had zero chance of removing the Dragon's forces. Even if they could unite, which there is no reason to believe that they would. People seem to forget that half the population of Caemlyn was ready to accept a king in Morgase's place.

 

The reason to believe they would is shown in Dyelin's quote provided earlier. She says she will go against the DR if he stays and other powerful houses also chime in with their assent. With how patriotic Andorans are combined with the view the general populace holds is more than enough evidence that Andor would have risen together. They may not have been successful but it is perfectly clear that they would have made the attempt.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Suttree

[randsc]

Ok regarding Andor's 200,000 man army- it would take months for them to get that many men together, trained and equipped. Not to mention you couldn't hide that many men. wouldn't be much of an issue to simply take the Aiel and rout

what army was already standing, and harry any attempt to form another army. These Andormen don't seem to take t he Aiel too seriously, similarly neither did the Tairens. They learned better though.

 

That is certainly correct. The Andorans had zero chance of removing the Dragon's forces. Even if they could unite, which there is no reason to believe that they would. People seem to forget that half the population of Caemlyn was ready to accept a king in Morgase's place.

Refresh my memory...when was that stated?

 

Review the circumstances of Rand's first-time arrival in Caemlyn.

[randsc]

Ok regarding Andor's 200,000 man army- it would take months for them to get that many men together, trained and equipped. Not to mention you couldn't hide that many men. wouldn't be much of an issue to simply take the Aiel and rout

what army was already standing, and harry any attempt to form another army. These Andormen don't seem to take t he Aiel too seriously, similarly neither did the Tairens. They learned better though.

 

That is certainly correct. The Andorans had zero chance of removing the Dragon's forces. Even if they could unite, which there is no reason to believe that they would. People seem to forget that half the population of Caemlyn was ready to accept a king in Morgase's place.

 

The reason to believe they would is shown in Dyelin's quote provided earlier. She says she will go against the DR if he stays and other powerful house also chime in with their assent. With how patriotic Andorans are combined with the view the general populace holds is more than enough evidence that Andor would have risen together. They may not have been successful but it is perfectly clear that they would have made the attempt.

 

Again, half the population of Caemlyn was ready to accept a replacement for Morgase who was a living embodiement of everything Andorans supposedly find unacceptable in a leader. Dyelin is not an omniscient narrator; she's just a character.

 

Would some have made an attempt? Probably. But some nobles would have worked to their own advantage, and many commoners would have made common cause with the providers of stability. There is no way there would be 200,000 Andoran troops taking the field against the Aiel.

[Suttree]

Ok regarding Andor's 200,000 man army- it would take months for them to get that many men together, trained and equipped. Not to mention you couldn't hide that many men. wouldn't be much of an issue to simply take the Aiel and rout

what army was already standing, and harry any attempt to form another army. These Andormen don't seem to take t he Aiel too seriously, similarly neither did the Tairens. They learned better though.

 

That is certainly correct. The Andorans had zero chance of removing the Dragon's forces. Even if they could unite, which there is no reason to believe that they would. People seem to forget that half the population of Caemlyn was ready to accept a king in Morgase's place.

 

The reason to believe they would is shown in Dyelin's quote provided earlier. She says she will go against the DR if he stays and other powerful house also chime in with their assent. With how patriotic Andorans are combined with the view the general populace holds is more than enough evidence that Andor would have risen together. They may not have been successful but it is perfectly clear that they would have made the attempt.

 

Again, half the population of Caemlyn was ready to accept a replacement for Morgase who was a living embodiement of everything Andorans supposedly find unacceptable in a leader. Dyelin is not an omniscient narrator; she's just a character.

 

Would some have made an attempt? Probably. But some nobles would have worked to their own advantage, and many commoners would have made common cause with the providers of stability. There is no way there would be 200,000 Andoran troops taking the field against the Aiel.

 

You have the right of it with Lord Gaebril but don't forget they thought he was one of their own. When it comes to foreigners it seems pretty cut and dry. We have Dyelin's word, the other houses that immediately chimed in with support and contrary to what you say about common cause we know how the general populace actually felt.

 

TPoD

He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway.”

 

&

 

And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

 

I feel it isn't a stretch at all to think when faced with a foe like the Aiel the entire nation would have risen behind Dyelin. Don't forget she was the one woman that would have had all the other houses support.

[ironisles]

I feel it isn't a stretch at all to think when faced with a foe like the Aiel the entire nation would have risen behind Dyelin. Don't forget she was the one woman that would have had all the other houses support.

 

 

My point was though that they could never raise enough people to get an army together. Sure, they might get common folks to fight- and I think we'd guess how that would end. Obviously Rand wouldn't allow the Aiel to slaughter commoners like that but that isn't my point. My point was yeah they may be able to field 200,000 but unless they are already up trying to get anything that sized after the Aiel are there is pointless.

[randsc]

But isn't it the Andoran position that the Two Rivers is part of Andor? Meaning Rand is in fact "one of them" and not "a black-eyed Aielman?"

[Manscher]

But isn't it the Andoran position that the Two Rivers is part of Andor? Meaning Rand is in fact "one of them" and not "a black-eyed Aielman?"

 

Since when have anybody ever listened to reason or used logic in this universe? :P

[Cutlass]

I also had the thought after reading a few of the arguments on this thread, that why wouldn't Elayne make Dylin the regant until after the last battle? The major houses already supported her, Dylin made clear she didn't want the throne and I am positive that Elayne could have benifitted from some more time training her talents as Aes Sedai. I think it was also mentioned she could be Andor's ambassador to the Dragon Reborn. It would be far easier for her to take power from a willing step down of Dylin, again avoiding a civil warand that would have given her the time to meet and make nice with the houses that Morgase upset.

 

Additionally the fact that she would be supported by the White Tower fully after it was whole would have held great sway. As Aes Sedai Elayne has hundreds of yeras in front of her - there should have been no rush to jump into a war for the throne.

 

On a second note - Back to her use of the power during the the civil war that she managed to NOT avoid... defending her soilders on the wall (mentioned by someone earlier) and causing greif to the sieging armies (also mentioned earlier) why not? it is not in oppisition of the oaths. (Sheilds of Air, storms and other inconveiences in the enemy camps, nightly raids to destory the supply lines/moral etc.) I realize soemone also mentoned that this may lead to armies of channelers taking up arms wherever they choose.... well as I understand most channelers don't hit the ground running (1 in 4 survives being born with the spark, and less then 1% of the population has the spark at that = .25% of the population) - and I'm pretty sure regardless of the affilliation, one of the larger groups (White Tower, Black Tower, Seanchan) would look at scooping them up pretty quickly.

 

Quite simply, the strong survive and rise to the top - and its the measure of respect that they choose to keep when the get there. You don't get to be the King/Queen or even President/Prime Minister for being a nice guy. If you have the big stick, you need to use it soemtimes. I'm not saying she needs to be a tyrant, but it wouldn't hurt her if she set down challangers... Hard and fast.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Suttree]

But isn't it the Andoran position that the Two Rivers is part of Andor? Meaning Rand is in fact "one of them" and not "a black-eyed Aielman?"

 

And you accuse Ares of moving goalposts? A foreign army, and not just foreign but Aiel, the wounds from the Aiel War are still fresh and have to be in the front of everyone's mind. In addition they have been taking the fifth in other countries(looting in the eyes of Andorans). As for Rand, read my last post... he is viewed as an "invader" and the DR whose place is not in Andor. The quotes make it clear what the nobles and commoners think despite how many hairs you attempt to split.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Suttree

[Hybrid]

But isn't it the Andoran position that the Two Rivers is part of Andor? Meaning Rand is in fact "one of them" and not "a black-eyed Aielman?"

 

I don't know if that fact is known to them. It's been a while since I read the series, but I seem to recall Rand deciding to distance himself from the Two Rivers so that none of his enemies would try to use it against him.

[randsc]

But isn't it the Andoran position that the Two Rivers is part of Andor? Meaning Rand is in fact "one of them" and not "a black-eyed Aielman?"

 

And you accuse Ares of moving goalposts? A foreign army, and not just foreign but Aiel, the wounds from the Aiel War are still fresh and have to be in the front of everyone's mind. In addition they have been taking the fifth in other countries(looting in the eyes of Andorans). As for Rand, read my last post... he is viewed as an "invader" and the DR whose place is not in Andor. The quotes make it clear what the nobles and commoners think despite how many hairs you attempt to split.

 

Oh, they don't like him, for sure.

 

I don't see anything that suggests they will actually engage in a suicidal war to remove him, and much to suggest that they would not. The clear lesson of the experience with Rahvin is that if the "legitimate" ruler (by traditional Andoran standards) isn't getting the job done, the people are willing to look beyond their historical preferences.

 

And yeah, Mister A moves the goalposts.

[Suttree]

Oh, they don't like him, for sure.

 

I don't see anything that suggests they will actually engage in a suicidal war to remove him, and much to suggest that they would not.

 

Except for Dyelin's assertion that they would, that was backed up by other major noble houses.

 

What in the text suggests they would not? Your Gaebril analogy isn't comparable as he didn't have a foreign army of Aiel at his back and was already tied to the throne through Morgase.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Suttree

[randsc]

Oh, they don't like him, for sure.

 

I don't see anything that suggests they will actually engage in a suicidal war to remove him, and much to suggest that they would not.

 

Except for Dyelin's assertion that they would, that was backed up by other major noble houses.

 

What in the text suggests they would not? Your Gaebril analogy isn't comparable as he didn't have a foreign army of Aiel at his back and was already tied to the throne through Morgase.

 

Dyelin, backed by the other nobles present, states that she would oppose him. You are not, I'm sure, suggesting that that means the common people would necessarily do the same? That sure isn't how it worked in other Randland countries, when the Aiel or the Seanchan came.

 

Rand has a foreign army of Aiel, each one of which is worth several Andoran armsmen, and who outnumber the Andorans besides. And that will make armed conflict MORE likely? Of course not. It will make grumbling more likely, make passive resistance more likely, maybe even make raids on supply columns and the like more likely. But there is nothing in the response of the Andoran people to the coming End Times that makes a "Manethern at Aemon's Field"-type popular uprising likely.

 

Rahvin demonstrated that the Andorans would, in fact, accept a male ruler. If Rand were revealed to be not only Andoran, but even the issue of the Andoran royal house, and the Aiel brought notable stability to a nation which had been on the edge of chaos, the story could well have been different.

 

In any case, the question was, "Why not use the One Power?" And the answer is, "She does, even in possible (likely) violation of the Three Oaths."