Aviendahs walk through the glass ter'angreal

[JTmin5]

I was just wondering if anyone else picked up on this or if its obvious or not, but when it gets to the lives of aviendahs closest future relatives Aviendah is not there to judge whether they should start attacking the seanchan. It is like 17 years after the last battle or something and she is not there so I am assuming she died, but how did she have enough time to have four kids, unless she survived the last battle and died during child birth. But all the same when her grandaughter goes to the future queen of andor she said she remembered her face from her grandaughter's perspective. As well as where is Elayne? She would not have died after 40 or 50 years she is a channeler at least 150 yeras + should be the minimum unless she dies at the last battle as well. You would think they would be consulted or Egwene, but she isnt mentioned in the future memories either. anyone have any take on this or how this is maybe a potential future and aviendah has the power to change it..

 

Also what do you think the aiel have to do differently. I think for one to in order to met their to they cant just fight the last battle. They have to follow the way of the leaf again, and that would avoid her peoples eventual destruction since they wouldnt break the dragons peace and go to war with the Seanchane...

 

sidenote they also said in the meeting tent with the children of the dragon that Rhuarc said the former empress was a honorable woman, so she must have died to because it was only 17 years after the battle, so I am assuming mat died too.

 

any buddddy got some theories

[JTmin5]

Ugg i should really proof read these before i post them....

 

"I think for one in order to meet there Toh"

 

hehe sorry for that

[yoniy0]

Yes, it's a mystery. Note how the Aiel say the Car'a'carn left them; it suggests he didn't just die at TG. Perhaps the four of them simply retired after some time (or, more likely, Rand immediately and Elayne and Aviendha as soon as they felt they've done their duty to their nations post-TG).

 

Regarding Tuon, there was supposed to be an outrigger dealing with her and Mat. Perhaps they tried to retake Seanchan and somehow disappeared?

[Superhal]

The way it sounds, I think everybody except Perrin is dead one generation after TG. The only reference to him is that Two Rivers is then a separate nation.

[Manscher]

The way it sounds, I think everybody except Perrin is dead one generation after TG. The only reference to him is that Two Rivers is then a separate nation.

Doesn't really say anything about Perrin, as the Two Rivers belong to Rand, not Perrin.

[Din]

Another reason why that is the most depressing part of the series.

[SuperFade]

Those factors are why I don't trust that particular vision. It seems more like a warning about what might happen rather than something that is set in stone.

[Vermillion]

Possible. Rand and girls leave. Tuon is back on the other side of the ocean with new "empress" for Randland area.

[JTmin5]

Possible. Rand and girls leave. Tuon is back on the other side of the ocean with new "empress" for Randland area.

 

I wonder where they would leave to and why wouldnt they come back after the fighting broke out. Would be a dick move for Rand to actually leave the Aiel in those circumstances, and I just dont se Elayne giving up Andor quite so quickly. having to deal with the Carhienin lords that she just set up and all that other jazz that comes with running a kingdom.

[jahnfriederik]

Another thing we haven't considered is that the Seanchan Empire on the other side of the (Aryth?) Ocean is in total chaos. Tuon staying is a mite unrealistic. Tuon staying after the Last Battle is extremely unrealistic .. and she'd need her forces, a large portion of them at least, to recapture her own. They can afford to send hundreds of thousands to conquer another continent - think of the implications of that...

 

The whole vision thing just doesn't work in my opinion. 1. Cheesy guns and stuff (bridging fantasy/real life gap, cliché) 2. Depressing 3. Very depressing 4. Assumes Tarmon Gai'don is won, which they aren't supposed to be sure of yet. Etc.

[HeronMarkedSoul]

Another reason why that is the most depressing part of the series.

 

I have to agree as I thought the exact same thing.

[Superhal]

Well, a remnant of remnant was all they were hoping for.

[Shai-tan]

Another thing we haven't considered is that the Seanchan Empire on the other side of the (Aryth?) Ocean is in total chaos. Tuon staying is a mite unrealistic. Tuon staying after the Last Battle is extremely unrealistic .. and she'd need her forces, a large portion of them at least, to recapture her own. They can afford to send hundreds of thousands to conquer another continent - think of the implications of that...

 

The whole vision thing just doesn't work in my opinion. 1. Cheesy guns and stuff (bridging fantasy/real life gap, cliché) 2. Depressing 3. Very depressing 4. Assumes Tarmon Gai'don is won, which they aren't supposed to be sure of yet. Etc.

 

I think the way that the rings work, is that they show the most probable future of the pattern, as things stand. If the light wins then that is what the pattern was heading towards, at that particular point in time. However if the DO wins, then there is no pattern and thus no future.

[Sharaman]

Everything in the visions are twisted and seem unlikely. All the strong channelers we've met are no longer there just 40 years down the line. The Seanchan dominate both (?) continents. The Aiel have lost their honour as well as their leadership. The a'dam is still very much in use despite a more generalised knowledge that sul'dam can become damane. The Ashaman of the BT have become a secretive force hiding out in the wilderness but fighting the Seanchan. All possible outcomes but none of them probable - and taken together, very improbable indeed.

[Stitch]

It seems more likely to me that the pillars have in the past shown, through the eyes of the viewers ancestors, what was considered to be what the present (and past - since the Jenn gathered the others on the sands around the city) Aiel needed to know, to be reminded of - so that their leaders could act in such a manner to lead the Aiel well, not just in fulfilling their prophesied roles but also to be able to understand the Aiel's history and relationship to others (for example to understand the bond that they once had with those who had once shared water with them). By revealing such trying knowledge, the pillars were able to determine if the individual had the specific character traits required to cope with that knowledge, such as a level of flexibility and wisdom - these were likely the traits that the Jenn considered were necessary for the Leaders of the Aiel and I believe that the Jenn had configured the pillars to do just that.

 

I believe Aviendah on the other hand managed to reconfigure the settings on the pillars with a new set of requirements based on her intentions and doubts at the time about what the Aiel were to do - the pillars are ascribed a level of consciousness, of awareness and I believe that this was essential in the pillars determining what they believed that the individuals sent to the pillars now need to be shown as opposed to what they were once shown in the past.

 

To me, the meeting in the desert BEFORE going to the pillars is more telling. The fact that she was instructed to make the journey on foot rather than travelling, suggests to me that something was supposed to happen (though this could merely have been self reflection etc), which could indicate that similar meetings had been experienced by other wise ones. Perhaps this is related to the pillars themselves and could therefore have played a role in identifying what was required of the pillars when Aviendah later touched them.

 

The visions themselves are bleak indeed and in truth its difficult to say just how readily they can be taken as truth.

 

Typically, the pattern has little room for each thread to move as we have been told many times before, threads are weaved by the wheel into pattern as it wills, therefore if what was seen is the pattern that the wheel is to weave then we can assume that the threads, including the lives of the aiel have little chance to adapt far. Arguably the amount of control the viewer has over events in the closest lives (those at the start) is the highest and that such changes should be able to bring about changes to the later ones. However some prophecies are self-fulfilling with attempts to change fate actually leading to those prophecies coming true; not only that, but if we are to assume that this is what the wheel wants then any divergence from this path is more likely to produce taveren to pull it back as intended - so over time even those changes that might be wrought by the viewer over the most recent lives may be redressed as the pattern adjusts to compensate.

 

That said it is possible for Aviendah to take actions that would seem to indicate that the events that are shown cannot happen (such as not having children at all) or are less likely to happen. So I would judge that the 'future' shown is not definite.

 

Perhaps it is a possible (even probable) future; if so one must ask why that potential future is shown, is it a random one? Is it one chosen because it is the 'worst' that she could envisage (perhaps worse than the death of her people is the disgrace and how their ways become twisted)? Is it one chosen because it requires that the individual who passes through the pillars must either possess or else develop the traits that the pillars (after reconfiguration by Aviendah) have deemed to be necessary or desirable for those who are to lead the Aiel.

 

 

That is ignoring the possibility that the visions she saw were not instead some complex creation of fantasy (rather than some sort of semi-prophetic vision), designed with the intention of testing or conditioning the individual who passed through the gate in some new way - some way that the pillar has determined is to the benefit of the Aiel AND its assuming that this will be the case for future Aiel who pass through the pillars rather than a unique event brought on by some DO or taveren tugging of the pattern.

[Awakened]

Another thing we haven't considered is that the Seanchan Empire on the other side of the (Aryth?) Ocean is in total chaos. Tuon staying is a mite unrealistic. Tuon staying after the Last Battle is extremely unrealistic .. and she'd need her forces, a large portion of them at least, to recapture her own. They can afford to send hundreds of thousands to conquer another continent - think of the implications of that...

 

 

 

Except with Traveling her forces are always one footstep away from wherever she wants them to be.

[jahnfriederik]

It seems more likely to me that the pillars have in the past shown, through the eyes of the viewers ancestors, what was considered to be what the present (and past - since the Jenn gathered the others on the sands around the city) Aiel needed to know, to be reminded of - so that their leaders could act in such a manner to lead the Aiel well, not just in fulfilling their prophesied roles but also to be able to understand the Aiel's history and relationship to others (for example to understand the bond that they once had with those who had once shared water with them). By revealing such trying knowledge, the pillars were able to determine if the individual had the specific character traits required to cope with that knowledge, such as a level of flexibility and wisdom - these were likely the traits that the Jenn considered were necessary for the Leaders of the Aiel and I believe that the Jenn had configured the pillars to do just that.

 

I like this idea. I like it very much.

 

Another thing we haven't considered is that the Seanchan Empire on the other side of the (Aryth?) Ocean is in total chaos. Tuon staying is a mite unrealistic. Tuon staying after the Last Battle is extremely unrealistic .. and she'd need her forces, a large portion of them at least, to recapture her own. They can afford to send hundreds of thousands to conquer another continent - think of the implications of that...

 

 

Except with Traveling her forces are always one footstep away from wherever she wants them to be.

 

Oops.

 

Tbh after what Rand did in Maradon, physical armies have been invalidated. Gateways, deathgates, etc -- I hate to say it but the Eragon system of battle* made more sense. Killing non-channelers is just too easy.

 

*Magicians cast wards over sections of armies; these troops can only be killed when their magicians have been, but once that is true, they are effectively worthless... symbiotic a little bit because magicians grappling with enemy magicians could not physically defend themselves effectively, so both were needed. I hate that series with a vengeance, but this idea actually makes a lot of sense. The OP is op (overpowered).

[Hybrid]

Eragon shouldn't be compared favorably to anything.

[dexterryu]

Another thing we haven't considered is that the Seanchan Empire on the other side of the (Aryth?) Ocean is in total chaos. Tuon staying is a mite unrealistic. Tuon staying after the Last Battle is extremely unrealistic .. and she'd need her forces, a large portion of them at least, to recapture her own. They can afford to send hundreds of thousands to conquer another continent - think of the implications of that...

 

 

 

Except with Traveling her forces are always one footstep away from wherever she wants them to be.

 

All the other Nations would have access to gateways too.

 

Here is the thing with the visions that doesn't sit well with me. The Randland forces have both male and female channelers. The seanchan only have damani which are only women born with the spark and not any of those who are only able to learn.

 

So the Randland forces would have the following advantages:

1) Both Male & Female Channelers

2) Numbers (Kin, Wise Ones, Windfinders, Aes Sedai, & Ashaman)

3) Linking (A'dam prevents this)

 

So unless the Seanchan sit out of the Last Battle and therefor preserve and have much greater forces then I don't see how they have the advantage.

[jahnfriederik]

Eragon shouldn't be compared favorably to anything.

 

Not fair and you know it.

 

1. Eragon > Twilight

2. The point was valid. If Rand can kill 500K Trollocks & Mydraal, everything else (including throwing fireballs! zz!) grows paltry in comparison

 

So unless the Seanchan sit out of the Last Battle and therefore preserve much greater forces then I don't see how they have the advantage.

 

Haha actually now that I really think about it the visions were a pretty good idea. Without them the Seanchan are just weak ... if they win the Last Battle, whatever remains behind of the Aiel, Perrin's forces, the Band, the White Tower, the Asha'man etc. should be more than enough to cope with the Seanchan. Now it's much more interesting.

 

Still, I seriously doubt RJ intended to conclude the series with the Seanchan conquering all. But it's a good ploy. Much more dramatic now.

[Hybrid]

1. Eragon > Twilight

 

Twilight may be poorly written, but it is for the most part original. So yes, it is better than Eragon.

 

2. The point was valid. If Rand can kill 500K Trollocks & Mydraal, everything else (including throwing fireballs! zz!) grows paltry in comparison

 

The point was what? That everything else becomes obsolete in the face of deadly weaves? Sure. I never contested that.

 

I disagreed that the Eragon system of battle was "better," as described by the original poster. This "warding armies" business does not make magic any less "overpowered" than the One Power is.

 

Once you can do something with your mind and a mystical energy source, things become obsolete. Even if the only weave used was Traveling, that's already "overpowered." Or Healing. Etc.

 

You may as well apply this argument to Mat's cannons. They can do the same thing, more or less, and you're not even putting all your eggs in one basket.

[Rufae]

I think maybe the columns show the past accurately because the past has already been woven. The future however has not yet been woven. Therefore, it reads teh Pattern of the Age Lace to predict how future events would play out given a set of beginning parameters.

 

It is possible (I dont have the book here with me) Avi was thinking about what the future would be like without all the current leaders. What we get is a world in which the Aiel lose their honor and the world collapses in a decades/centuries long world war.

 

Also maybe the answer to the Bore is for Rand to seal himself up in the Bore with the DO in order to make sure stays shut.

[jahnfriederik]

I think maybe the columns show the past accurately because the past has already been woven. The future however has not yet been woven. Therefore, it reads teh Pattern of the Age Lace to predict how future events would play out given a set of beginning parameters.

 

It is possible (I dont have the book here with me) Avi was thinking about what the future would be like without all the current leaders. What we get is a world in which the Aiel lose their honor and the world collapses in a decades/centuries long world war.

 

Also maybe the answer to the Bore is for Rand to seal himself up in the Bore with the DO in order to make sure stays shut.

Min's viewings (apart from the ending of the Pattern) always hold true. What does that mean??

[Rufae]

Min reads the Pattern as it stands now. I think Avi accidently fed a set of circumstances into the glass columns and it spit out the results. Her mind asked maybe unconscionously, "What will happen to the world if we (Avi, Rand, Elayne, Egwene, etc) are not there to lead them?" We saw the results.

[Din]

Some observations;

 

There is no indication that Aviendha interacted with the pillars in any way beyond brief physical contact.

 

In Aviendha's viewing of the future the Aiel were completely destroyed. The prophecies promise that a remnant of a remnant will survive although I'm not sure that this is enough to cast doubt on Aviendha's viewing since the prophecy specifically mentions the Last Battle as a time frame.

 

The Jendai prophecy promises all the seas of the world to the Sea Folk. If the Raven Empire takes over the Westlands then they will likely retain their current naval superiority.

 

The Karaethon Cycle says "He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf". The second part is clearly reference to the Way of the Leaf and the first part seems to support Aviendha's vision where the Dragon's Peace makes no arrangement for the Aiel and thereby leads to their (continued) destruction.