What plot points do you think should have been different?

[Puny]

I'm going to blow your mind here: it's possible to love more than one person at once.

 

And, as Logain's Pet pointed out, the three girls are totally cool with it.

 

The trick is getting them to agree to all sleep with him at once.

 

Depends on the ladies. In most poly-relationships that is unsual though... The guy sleeps with one woman at a time. If the four are in another type of relationship I´m sure they could be told to sleep with each other, but seeing as this isn´t that kind of relationship I think they will do it one-on-one.

And it is possible to love more then one person at a time. =)

 

Oh and plotpoints that should improve is communication, specifically in regards to Gateways. I know several times the lads and ladies think, Oh if only Rand knew but I must secure the throne to Andor first, or oh, if only Rand knew about Emond´s Field and how it´s changed. They have gateways.... they should use them. They can Travel back and forth within a day.

[EpitomyofShyness]

First things first, I love this series. With that out of the way, I think a few things could have made it even better than it already is.

 

1. A lot of these characters should be dead.

 

2. Seanchan aren't super necessary. They are kinda neat, but I think their storyline is unnecessary and cutting it might have made the series better as a whole.

 

3. Dude, the Black Ajah hunter plotline was SUCH a let down. Not cool. And as much as I loved the scene with Verin and Egwene UG! I wanted the Hunters to be dealing with crap, maybe one of them killed by SH, and other sadistic stuff.

 

4. Asmo should have totally lived. Underused character, I was sad.

 

Now, to expand on point 1

• In EotW when Thom 'died' I cried. Seriously. Then when he was not dead in tGH... I actually felt kind of cheated to be honest. Like he was supposed to be dead, and him suddenly being alive didn't do anything for the story.
  
• Moiraine should have died at the end of tFoH. Her return in ToM did nothing for me, her death had me weeping like a child. So she should have died.
  
• I think Elayne should have died during the civil war. It would have been a seriously interesting wrench.
  
• Egwene, although I don't think she should have died, I think she should have at least been turned to the Shadow against her will. It would be interesting.
  
• I could keep going, but my point stands, with not a single main character, or even side character having died in the entirety of the series there is no sense of threat. I'm not worried about these characters, and I want to be.
  

That's all I have to say!

[Elan Tedronai]

^ hooray someone who gets.

 

but apparently if it comes from me it's trolling. This board is filled with alot of sensitive ppl.

[randsc]

 

Sleeping with them is one thing..But Rand thinks that he loves Elayne but still sleeps with Avi. He thinks he loves Avi also but still sleeps with Min. That is awful.

 

No, it's really not. He thinks he might love Elayne, but hinks she doesn't love him. He thinks that he might love Avi, but thinks she hates him.

 

If he was't exercising self-control...well, look, he's the Dragon Reborn. In addition to being, apparently, a good-looking guy. If he wanted to, he could be a dirty, dirty dog. But he's not.

[dingbat]

I wanted Nynaeve to turn down becoming Aes Sedai after passing the 100 weave test, telling them they didn't meet her standards.

[Elan Tedronai]

monogamy is highly overrated. It works for some and it doesnt for some. Sometimes your first wife might be barren or suffer a disability of some sort. what then? Throw her away or divorce her? get a mistress? nah i won't be held by the concept of one man one woman. If circumstances change then i will marry again and keep my first wife too.

[FarShainMael]

monogamy is highly overrated. It works for some and it doesnt for some. Sometimes your first wife might be barren or suffer a disability of some sort. what then? Throw her away or divorce her? get a mistress? nah i won't be held by the concept of one man one woman. If circumstances change then i will marry again and keep my first wife too.

 

No woman would marry you if they heard that.

[FarShainMael]

But Rand thinks that he loves Elayne but still sleeps with Avi. He thinks he loves Avi also but still sleeps with Min. That is awful.

 

From what we have seen, Rand slept with Avi and with Elayne once each only. Ho does not 'still sleep' with either woman. His 'steady' is Min.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

he's young and dumb and. . . pretty sure he's going to die real soon. snatching life out of the jaws of death isn't just a one liner.

[UncleButcher1980]

I could keep going, but my point stands, with not a single main character, or even side character having died in the entirety of the series there is no sense of threat. I'm not worried about these characters, and I want to be.

 

 

Plenty of side characters have died.

 

Verin, Ingtar, Hopper, Aram, Pedron Niall, Carlinya, Anaiya, Adeleas, Vandene, Nalesean, Nicola, Herid Fel, Tylin, Reanne Corly, Jain Farstrider, Nesta din Reas, to name a few.

[Never]

• 
  [*

]In EotW when Thom 'died' I cried. Seriously. Then when he was not dead in tGH... I actually felt kind of cheated to be honest. Like he was supposed to be dead, and him suddenly being alive didn't do anything for the story.

 
Indeed. It would have been okay if this was something that happened once in the series, but it's not.
 
[*

]Moiraine should have died at the end of tFoH. Her return in ToM did nothing for me, her death had me weeping like a child. So she should have died.

 
I don't know about this one, Moiraine knowing that she would die would be one thing, but Moiraine knowing what those creatures would do to her, maybe indefinitely? I cried when I thought Moiraine died, and more after I read her letter to Rand, but her torture just added to her greatness for me. I see how it might be a cheap trick, but I think it's cool that Moiraine lives after all. A lot of characters should have died, but Moiraine should not imo.
 

I think Elayne should have died during the civil war. It would have been a seriously interesting wrench.

 
Yeah, I agree. I mean, she kinda couldn't because of the prophecies, but if those hadn't been there I would have totally agreed to Elayne's death. I very much dislike her, so there's that, but I think overall that the series would have been better without her at all.
 

Egwene, although I don't think she should have died, I think she should have at least been turned to the Shadow against her will. It would be interesting.

 
I hope she will in the last book. That would have been really cool, Egwene going through all she has gone through now and then turning to the shadow at the last moment, or at least to war against Rand over the seals!
 

I could keep going, but my point stands, with not a single main character, or even side character having died in the entirety of the series there is no sense of threat. I'm not worried about these characters, and I want to be.

 

QFT!

[EpitomyofShyness]

Plenty of side characters have died.

 

Verin, Ingtar, Hopper, Aram, Pedron Niall, Carlinya, Anaiya, Adeleas, Vandene, Nalesean, Nicola, Herid Fel, Tylin, Reanne Corly, Jain Farstrider, Nesta din Reas, to name a few.

 

Yeah, but they aren't like MAJOR side characters. Verin yeah, but she was a dark friend. Tons of dark friends have died. And I know she was technically a good person, but she was also technically a dark friend. When Jain Farstrider died I shrugged, it meant nothing to me. I don't think Rand, Mat, or Perrin should be dead, but others? Oh hell yeah. At least one of Rand's girls, cause that would add to the tragedy, and at least one of the 'Wonder Girl's' aka Nynaeve, Egwene, or Elayne. Hence Elayne since she knocks out two birds with one stone. Also, I should mention I don't even know who most of the people you've listed are, or if I vaguely remember I could tell you nothing about them, and wouldn't have remembered their existence or death without you mentioning them here.

 

View PostEpitomyofShyness, on 17 July 2011 - 09:06 AM, said:

Moiraine should have died at the end of tFoH. Her return in ToM did nothing for me, her death had me weeping like a child. So she should have died.

 

I don't know about this one, Moiraine knowing that she would die would be one thing, but Moiraine knowing what those creatures would do to her, maybe indefinitely? I cried when I thought Moiraine died, and more after I read her letter to Rand, but her torture just added to her greatness for me. I see how it might be a cheap trick, but I think it's cool that Moiraine lives after all. A lot of characters should have died, but Moiraine should not imo.

 

On second thought I agree, I just guess I am so sick of the fact that NO ONE is dead that even her being alive PO's me. So I'll give you that one.

[UncleButcher1980]

Plenty of side characters have died.

 

Verin, Ingtar, Hopper, Aram, Pedron Niall, Carlinya, Anaiya, Adeleas, Vandene, Nalesean, Nicola, Herid Fel, Tylin, Reanne Corly, Jain Farstrider, Nesta din Reas, to name a few.

 

Yeah, but they aren't like MAJOR side characters. Verin yeah, but she was a dark friend. Tons of dark friends have died. And I know she was technically a good person, but she was also technically a dark friend. When Jain Farstrider died I shrugged, it meant nothing to me. I don't think Rand, Mat, or Perrin should be dead, but others? Oh hell yeah. At least one of Rand's girls, cause that would add to the tragedy, and at least one of the 'Wonder Girl's' aka Nynaeve, Egwene, or Elayne. Hence Elayne since she knocks out two birds with one stone. Also, I should mention I don't even know who most of the people you've listed are, or if I vaguely remember I could tell you nothing about them, and wouldn't have remembered their existence or death without you mentioning them here.

 

 

Isn't major side characters an oxymoron or something? I don't know. Either you're a major character or not. Anyway, I don't know why Verin's double agent dark friendliness matters really, she did a lot of important stuff, has been in the series since The Great Hunt and, from a personal point of view, her death was quite powerful. The other ones, fair enough if you don't remember them, but they are all side characters all the same and all have died. I guess it just depends on our points of view whether or not they had an impact; myself I was quite upset when Anaiya died, daft as that may sound, but I really liked her. Same with Herid Fel and most of the others. Tylin I was never a fan of a such, but the manner of her death was still shocking, for me.

[EpitomyofShyness]

Isn't major side characters an oxymoron or something? I don't know. Either you're a major character or not. Anyway, I don't know why Verin's double agent dark friendliness matters really, she did a lot of important stuff, has been in the series since The Great Hunt and, from a personal point of view, her death was quite powerful. The other ones, fair enough if you don't remember them, but they are all side characters all the same and all have died. I guess it just depends on our points of view whether or not they had an impact; myself I was quite upset when Anaiya died, daft as that may sound, but I really liked her. Same with Herid Fel and most of the others. Tylin I was never a fan of a such, but the manner of her death was still shocking, for me.

 

Ok you know what I'll give you Verin and Herid Fel, but Tylin's death felt a little satisfying for me, I actually don't remember who Anaiya is, unless she was a Tairen lady, and I still remember nothing about her.

 

I'll say that side character have died, but the fact remains, I am not scared for the main characters. I don't think Mat, Ran, or Perrin should be dead, but the people they care for? I'm not afraid for any of them, not Egwene, not Elayne, not Thom, not Nynaeve, etc. I know characters will die in the final book, but that's the final book. I haven't been afraid for any main character since... ever. Back in the early books yeah, but then Thom came back and I was first like 'Yay!' and then eventually I was like 'This sucks...' cause I wasn't scared.

 

Anyways that's my two cents.

[UncleButcher1980]

Ok you know what I'll give you Verin and Herid Fel.

 

And Hopper, surely. Come on the poor thing has died twice, the second time the final death. Loved that wolf.

 

 

 

'I'll say that side character have died, but the fact remains, I am not scared for the main characters. I don't think Mat, Ran, or Perrin should be dead, but the people they care for? I'm not afraid for any of them, not Egwene, not Elayne, not Thom, not Nynaeve, etc. I know characters will die in the final book, but that's the final book. I haven't been afraid for any main character since... ever. Back in the early books yeah, but then Thom came back and I was first like 'Yay!' and then eventually I was like 'This sucks...' cause I wasn't scared.

 

Anyways that's my two cents.

 

 

 

For the record, Anaiya was an Aes Sedai of the Blue Ajah, she was first mentioned in The Great Hunt when she came with the embassy to Fal Dara (although I suppose technically she first appeared in New Spring, but The Great Hunt was published first). She was the first to suspect Egwene was a Dreamer and helped her for a time, and was later part of the Salidar crew. She was killed by Aran'gar. I guess she didn't have a lot of screen time or wasn't relevant to the story, but I just liked her a lot.

 

I understand the not being scared for main characters thing, although it's something that's never really bothered me. At least not in respect to there being too little tragedy as I think there are other ways of showing that than with a main character dying. There's side character death as mentioned, but also I think it can be shown through the experiences of the main character. For instance with Perrin, when he found out about all his family being killed, all his sisters and brothers, I found that very powerful and moving, more so for me, I would hazard to guess, than if Perrin himself had died. So I don't think it's always needed for a main character to die to have an impact in terms of tragedy and the like. Although I take the point about not fearing for the lives of the main players.

[LazyMonk]

Dark Rand demanding peace from Tuon was underplayed. Instead of sitting there and staring at her he should and said "You mistakenly believe we're equals, but if I wish it Seandar will a plane of ash-colored glass before sunset!" then still her 20 damane that she thinks can protect her against the Rand wielding the Choedan Kal.

[Luckers]

The Black Ajah Hunters... obviously Verin was always intended to take out the BA, but I never understood whilst after all the development nothing was done with the Hunters. I can think of a number of ways they could have been used... for instance we have Alviarin looking at them. Maybe, say, the Dark One foresees a terrible danger to his servants in the Tower, and then because of Alviarin the Shadow focuses on the Hunters, allowing Verin to swoop in unsuspected.

 

Alternatively it could have been played up on the political front. Say the Hunters realise the Too Young Sitters were placed in there by the Ajah Heads and wrongly come to the conclusion that Amyrlin, Ajah Heads and the majority of the Sitters were Black Ajah, leading them to turn to Egwene.

 

Or, really, just like anything. They lacked meaning.

[EpitomyofShyness]

The Black Ajah Hunters... obviously Verin was always intended to take out the BA, but I never understood whilst after all the development nothing was done with the Hunters. I can think of a number of ways they could have been used... for instance we have Alviarin looking at them. Maybe, say, the Dark One foresees a terrible danger to his servants in the Tower, and then because of Alviarin the Shadow focuses on the Hunters, allowing Verin to swoop in unsuspected.

 

Alternatively it could have been played up on the political front. Say the Hunters realise the Too Young Sitters were placed in there by the Ajah Heads and wrongly come to the conclusion that Amyrlin, Ajah Heads and the majority of the Sitters were Black Ajah, leading them to turn to Egwene.

 

Or, really, just like anything. They lacked meaning.

 

Oh my god this totally! I wouldn't even say Egwene shouldn't have been involved, you just nailed my feeling on the Hunters! I was so worried about them and stuff and then, 'LOL EGWENE RULEZ AGAIN SCORE'

 

*starts twitching in rage*

 

Dark Rand demanding peace from Tuon was underplayed. Instead of sitting there and staring at her he should and said "You mistakenly believe we're equals, but if I wish it Seandar will a plane of ash-colored glass before sunset!" then still her 20 damane that she thinks can protect her against the Rand wielding the Choedan Kal.

 

I forgot about this, and I second what you say.

 

So I don't think it's always needed for a main character to die to have an impact in terms of tragedy and the like. Although I take the point about not fearing for the lives of the main players.

 

I actually agree that to show tragedy one need not kill main players, however you made exactly my point! For me, personally, I want to be afraid of the main characters dying, throughout the story. I haven't been, and for me that sucks. But I can also see why it wouldn't bother other people.

[Luckers]

The other big one, aside from the BA Hunters, was I think Towers of Midnight should have been a book where the Forsaken had a load of win. Especially Graendal, after surviving Rand's attack in tGS. Again I don't necessarily understand why they didn't--i mean the set up was there, the attack on Caemlyn and Graendal having been given the command to cause Rand pain of the heart--even if that attack was instigated by Demandred, have the Demandred, Moridin and Graendal work together on that, with a cliffhanger of 'Elayne [and possibly Avi and Min] are in mortal danger'. Even if its immediately turned around in aMoL, you still have the Forsaken achieving something, working together, and being scary at the final moment of ToM.

 

Instead Graendal launched an overly elaborate, utterly stupid, and ultimately futile attack at Perrin, and everythings sunshine and roses. We have Forsaken who can do that sort of thing--Moghedien anyone? She was directly stated to be trying to fulfil Moridin's command of hunting Perrin, and she had prior experience with Masema that would have been a perfect lead in to her being the attacker. Plus she's dumb, I don't have a problem with her failing.

 

As it is I'm left underwowed by the Shadow. This book was about them Towering... so why didn't they Tower?

[ironisles]

If the Forsaken had been Lannisters, Rand would have long since been dead.

[TheAngryDruid]

The ones for me:

 

1) Verin's letter to Mat/Caemlyn warning. Verin's major mistake. So out of character, so easy to make sure it got in the right hands (Give it to Egwene, Elayne, any non-black sister who could travel, Thom, etc). Seemed too contrived a plot device for me. I didn't buy it.

 

2) Abandonment of the Black Ajah hunters after "Let the Lord of Chaos rule."

 

3) Rand not following up on some of his promises, not nearly enough for a month. No help for Lan, little for the Borderlands save Maradon. What about the Sea Folk? His abandonment of the BT.

 

4) Many of the same gripes with Egwene. No help for Borderlands, not much research on how to seal the bore.

 

5) Dropping of the Ogier's part to play. I want to hear Loial's speech.

 

6) More focus on what to do with AS post purge. I thought the Oaths (and how they did them before, as Rand alluded to) and some other very interesting tidbits got dropped. And a fear the future of channeling/societies will be unresolved.

 

Wow, that's a lot. But for 14 books, not too bad.

[Rivirland]

So far, the Sea Folk and the Ogier really have been disappointing. And yeah, some more major characters should've died. Someone like Gaul, Tam, mr. Bashere, Berelain, Gawyn etc.

 

Also, I really liked Asmodean (he became a Darkfriend so he could enjoy an eternity of music... How hardcore is that :D). He really felt like a bit of a letdown to me. Luckily I'm re-reading tFoH at the moment :)

[Clayden69]

1 thing i have never understood is why the DO needs a Nae'blis when his ultimate aim is to destroy the Pattern? Why does he allow the Forsaken to squabble amongst them selves? Why does he want the DR kept alive?

 

 

Just get the Forsaken to link, and then go and destroy the Dragon. Mankind has no hope in winning the LB if the Dragon is destroyed, the DO can then get free and destroy the Pattern

[LazyMonk]

1. When Alanna bonds Rand, his immediate response should have been: "You won't release me? Fine!" then grab Alanna and lock in the palace where she'll say put and out of his way. Instead he does... nothing, except yelling at the little Emond's Fielders.

 

2. Elane's mishandling of the captured Blacks. Granted, she has a lot on her mind with the succession war, but if the Seanchan can can get forkroot by the cartloads, Elane can get some too. So much easier and safer than keeping them shielded. And why keep that time-bomb at her home in the first place?? Just hand them over to Egwene - One less problem to loose sleep over.

[wihaase]

The Aiel should have been removed, or done with an eye toward a realistic culture of human beings. Not the laughably un-realistic uber-humans they are in the novels.

It did not take long for them to become tiring. Not very fun reading the endless praise for an entire people who are all perfectly tall, perfectly tanned, perfectly wise, perfectly fearless, perfectly bad-ass in combat, perfectly cool as Fonzie, perfectly able to out-run horses. The average Aiel warrior seems comparable to Lan and even their shortcomings come across as strengths; and this beside the countles "wetlander" nobles and soldiers who are sycophantic and moronic windbags and cowards to boot.

 

I would like plot lines with the Aiel that did not seem so contrived and so geared toward exposing their utter coolness from all angles.

With over a hundred thousand of these perfect humans why waste time or chapters on the wars fought? Just skip ahead to the main battle with the assumption the Aiel mopped the floor with all who stood in their way. Heck, just send a thousand Aiel to the last battle and Rand need not worry. He can crack open a couple brewskis and watch the football game knowing that the Aiel nation of god-like beings have everything in hand.