Is the Dragon a dreamer?

[XXX]

We have seen him enter TAR in flesh but can he do it as a dreamer..Perrin,Egwene like?

[WhiskyJack]

No..Rand has only entered TAR twice, both times using gateways..

[Hopefire]

No..Rand has only entered TAR twice, both times using gateways..

And throughout TDR.

[herid]

We have seen him enter TAR in flesh but can he do it as a dreamer..Perrin,Egwene like?

The issue has been hotly discussed and BS made some rather strange comments about it which if anything made the situation murkier IMO.

First, there is a difference between Dreaming and Dreamwalking. Dreaming means having prophetic dreams and Dreamwaling means the ability to enter TAR while sleeping unaided. It's mentioned a couple of times in the books that those are different talents and RJ confirmed it in interviews but those things are often mixed including by BS when he talks about it in interviews. He also had Egwene confuse them in ToM.

 

In any case, IMO, Rand is pretty clearly a dreamwalker. He entered TAR several times in TDR long before he learned to do it using gateways. Perrin (TDR, Ch 36) and Egwene (TDR, Ch 27) both met him in TAR on separate occasions.

 

As mentioned Sanderson said some very weird things on the subject in an interview. Basically he said that Rand was not dreamwalking on those occasions but rather projecting his reflection into TAR as happened when Perrin saw his reflection atop Dragonmount in ToM. However, he also said that he was making it up on the spot when he said that and not going by the notes. That explanation appears quite wrong to me for a number of reasons. In particular, because Rand was very much asleep when he met Perrin in TDR, Ch 36.

 

 

Rand sat up out of his exhausted sleep, gasping, the cloak he had used as a blanket falling away. His side ached, the old wound from Falme throbbing. His fire had burned down to coals with only a few wavering flames, but it was still enough to make the shadows move. That was Perrin. It was! It was him, not a dream. Somehow. I almost killed him! Light, I have to be careful!

-TDR, Ch 36

[WhiskyJack]

No..Rand has only entered TAR twice, both times using gateways..

And throughout TDR.

 

Was he traveling to Tear using TAR? I don't remember TDR much. Rand lacks the ability to enter TAR by just sleeping like Perrin or Egwene. He is very unfamiliar with TAR and that's why he asked Nynaeve in 5th book(fires of heaven?)about her meeting with Eqwene in TAR.

 

What happens when you enter into someone's dream? Can you get hurt?

[ironisles]

What happens when you enter into someone's dream? Can you get hurt?

 

I think it becomes an ordinary dream, but under the control of the person who's dream you entered.. I think.

[WhiskyJack]

What happens when you enter into someone's dream? Can you get hurt?

 

I think it becomes an ordinary dream, but under the control of the person who's dream you entered.. I think.

 

 

and?Unless Rand had managed to "open a gateway" in his dream...And how did he reach out to Moridin in tGS?

[Ananta]

I remember reading that one could learn to enter TAR unaided, without having the inborn talent for it...

 

But I dont remember if it was in a book or these forums D:

[XXX]

At the end of ToM Rand is meditating in the in between stage between the real world and TAR. As only Perrin and Egween both dreamwalkers have shown the ability to enter that area...does it mean Rand can enter TAR too like them asleep?

[WhiskyJack]

At the end of ToM Rand is meditating in the in between stage between the real world and TAR. As only Perrin and Egween both dreamwalkers have shown the ability to enter that area...does it mean Rand can enter TAR too like them asleep?

 

 

Rand was only dreaming in ToM. It says in the book. He can control his dreams, if that is what you meant.

[XXX]

Before he meets Lanfear, it says that he comes to this place to relax. Is that the same in between place Egween and Perin come to before entering and after leaving TAR?

[WhiskyJack]

Before he meets Lanfear, it says that he comes to this place to relax. Is that the same in between place Egween and Perin come to before entering and after leaving TAR?

 

I don't know about Perrin/Egwene. Don't remember. But in ToM, there is only "chapter" where we see Rand's POV. Rand admits that he goes to his ordinary dreams so that he can think in peace. Only think strange about those dreams is the fact he actually creates much of his dreams.

[Agitel]

First, there's a difference between Dreaming and Dreamwalking. Rand is not a Dreamer. However, zen-Rand can Dreamwalk. However, that's something that anybody (or at least any channeler) can be trained to do (we get this from one of Demandred's POVs when he's spying on the girls meeting in TAR). The ter'angreal that help with Dreamwalking were training tools. Egwene had a special gift/predisposition for Dreamwalking, though.

[WhiskyJack]

^^We have never seen zen-Rand in TAR.

[XXX]

I guess dream walking was nothing special among the old AS..just "dreaming" as a talent was/is rare.

[EvilSocrates]

Perhaps there is a weave that lets your dreamwalk. The ter'angreal that let you do it obviously use the power, after all. However they have always been mysterious to me.

 

 

Can anything that is done with a ter'angreal be done directly with the power? How exactly do the elements combine to make portals through spacetime or to the memories of the past and future anyhow? Why doesn't RJ have a more fleshed out magic system? We will probably never know the answers do these questions.

[Rose]

My guess would be that some things are too complex for a channeller to create all the weaves and hold them long enough to use them, so they create ter'angreals that do that for them. But it doesn't mean some of these things cannot be learned as well. For example, one of Nynaeve's ter'angreals creates a armor of air around the person that carries it. That's probably something you can do on your own as well. So the dreamwalking ter'angreals are probably like that as well.

 

As for the portals, I think that nobody really understands how they work. They are from before the Age of Legends, and even the Aes Sedai of that Age didn't know how to make them.

[WhiskyJack]

 

Can anything that is done with a ter'angreal be done directly with the power? How exactly do the elements combine to make portals through spacetime or to the memories of the past and future anyhow? Why doesn't RJ have a more fleshed out magic system? We will probably never know the answers do these questions.

 

 

Yes. Balefire is one example. Shielding is another. Ter'angreals were specialized tool that gave random Aes Sedai ability he/she couldn't perform on his/her own. There must be a weave for dreamwalking even though it might be an incredibly complex weave for most.

[XXX]

Is it confirmed that entering TAR in flesh is bad...how do the rest of the forsaken enter TAR?

[MasterAblar]

Is it confirmed that entering TAR in flesh is bad...how do the rest of the forsaken enter TAR?

 

According to the WO's it's bad. Pehaps more evil than bad. Not sure why. But the forsaken don't really worry about it.

 

Moghedien and Lanfear can just sleep. Demandred goes in the flesh. Hard to say for the rest.

[XXX]

Any quotes from RJ on going to TAR in the flesh?

[Kahsm]

Any quotes from RJ on going to TAR in the flesh?

 

Tonnes! One of my favourites:

Q: "Theoretically...if someone...had sex in Tel'aran'rhiod, could they be pregnant in the real world?

RJ: Read and find out. I like the dirty questions! You notice it's always the women who ask the dirty questions, never the men.

 

Not sure what's actually relevant to this discussion though....

 

Q: Did Ishamael appear in the flesh aside from the battle with Rand in the Stone of Tear?

RJ: Yes, he was in the flesh in Tel’aran’rhiod several times, starting in The Great Hunt.

That might lead somewhere... if you look for differences or something.

 

Kjell: Is it possible to go to the Dream World in the flesh, and take something with you out through the gateway?

RJ: No.

 

Leth Filorn on Twitter - 1 August 4:55 pm

If Rand goes to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, imagines himself a new hand (or a new body like Lews Therin's), and then walks out, what happens?4

Brandon - 9:42 pm

It wouldn't go with him, I'm afraid. Towers of Midnight gives some hints on why, actually.5

 

Q: Can you explain a bit about the properties of the World of Dreams? Such as when Nynaeve forced Moghedien to drink forkroot tea, which caused the Forsaken to fall asleep. But within that same book, the Wise Ones tell Egwene that drinking tea will in Tel'aran'rhiod will cause no effects upon the body.

RJ: It's a strong matter of belief. If you believe something like that will happen to you, then it can and does.

This one is interesting. Replace "Drink tea" with "Enter in flesh" and you might be onto something. If you believe it's bad it is.

 

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in Tel'aran'rhiod. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.

Here's a head scratcher for you! Probably off topic, but how would you define "together". If you turned your back on the person so you couldn't see them then does time start moving differently for you? Is there a distance you need to be away from someone else? What if you're at that distance but can still see the other person? What if you turn your back on them but they're still looking at you. Does your time passage remain constant?

*twilight zone music*

[spoke]

when Rand was in TAR in TDR, it was because the forsaken were pulling him into TAR, so they could control his dreams and wear him out.

[XXX]

Any quotes from RJ on going to TAR in the flesh?

 

Tonnes! One of my favourites:

Q: "Theoretically...if someone...had sex in Tel'aran'rhiod, could they be pregnant in the real world?

RJ: Read and find out. I like the dirty questions! You notice it's always the women who ask the dirty questions, never the men.

 

Not sure what's actually relevant to this discussion though....

 

Q: Did Ishamael appear in the flesh aside from the battle with Rand in the Stone of Tear?

RJ: Yes, he was in the flesh in Tel’aran’rhiod several times, starting in The Great Hunt.

That might lead somewhere... if you look for differences or something.

 

Kjell: Is it possible to go to the Dream World in the flesh, and take something with you out through the gateway?

RJ: No.

 

Leth Filorn on Twitter - 1 August 4:55 pm

If Rand goes to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, imagines himself a new hand (or a new body like Lews Therin's), and then walks out, what happens?4

Brandon - 9:42 pm

It wouldn't go with him, I'm afraid. Towers of Midnight gives some hints on why, actually.5

 

Q: Can you explain a bit about the properties of the World of Dreams? Such as when Nynaeve forced Moghedien to drink forkroot tea, which caused the Forsaken to fall asleep. But within that same book, the Wise Ones tell Egwene that drinking tea will in Tel'aran'rhiod will cause no effects upon the body.

RJ: It's a strong matter of belief. If you believe something like that will happen to you, then it can and does.

This one is interesting. Replace "Drink tea" with "Enter in flesh" and you might be onto something. If you believe it's bad it is.

 

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in Tel'aran'rhiod. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.

Here's a head scratcher for you! Probably off topic, but how would you define "together". If you turned your back on the person so you couldn't see them then does time start moving differently for you? Is there a distance you need to be away from someone else? What if you're at that distance but can still see the other person? What if you turn your back on them but they're still looking at you. Does your time passage remain constant?

*twilight zone music*

 

 

Thanks..but did he say anything about whether it is actually evil to enter in flesh or is it a false WO belief?

[Yahna]

 

Thanks..but did he say anything about whether it is actually evil to enter in flesh or is it a false WO belief?

 

Well, do keep in mind that Luc/Isam enters T'A'R in the flesh all the time and he smells inhuman to Perrin.