Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[SuperFade]

The Seanchan have always had as many soldiers as the plot demands. No matter how many times they are defeated, more magically appear. Doesn't mean Tuon is the most important character as Muad Cheade says.

[Apple13]

No, Egwene is not as important as Rand. And I don't recall her saying that she is, either. Just because she can be an unlikeable character doesn't mean that she is arrogant enough to think she's more important than the DR. The OP needs to check his/her facts from the books before making things up just to rant about characters they hate.

[Mr Ares]

Egwene should be on her knees in front of Rand..that she ask him to "submit" to her foolish tower makes her delusional.

I must say, some of this stuff does leave something of a nasty taste in the mouth. This continual highlighting of Rand's superiority, and the inferiority of Egwene and the AS is rather unpleasant. This goes beyond a mere dislike of Egwene and the Tower.

 

 

In terms of bravery, I stand by an argument I made a while back - Rand essentially had no choice, while Egwene did make choices to make her a part of the story. Therefore Egwene is braver, because she chose this. Rand can only make the best of a bad situation.

 

I strongly disagree. Egwene had a choice and made it - to seek a career as an Aes Sedai. She was brave enough to leave her village for something new (hardly an exceptional thing, although maybe more in WOT than in real world and especially in the Two Rivers) but that is about it when we look at consious choice as a proof of her courage. Her situation and Rand's are simply incomparable - with her serious defficiencies in introspection and empathy I doubt Egwene is even potentially able to comprehend the horror of Rand's situation when he is told he is the DR, looses his roots and family and learns that he is to live and die as a scapegoat (mad, hated and lonely scapegoat, let's not forget).

 

Rand's courage manifested itself in the way in which he faced his destiny. I really don't see anything even remotely similar in Egwene's case.Even her behaviour during the fight with Mesaana showed more of an arrogance and megalomania than courage, which would need a sense of danger that had to be faced and controlled. Egwene believed that she was the White Tower, all-powerful and invincible. When I think about it, I realize we don't really know too much about whether Egwene is really brave or not (and that's one of many personal traits of hers we know nothing about because of the inhuman way she is written...).

Rand faced his destiny by turning his back on it for the first three books, then going crazy. I think Egwene grasps Rand's predicament well enough. But given the choice, Rand would not be the Dragon. I think Egwene might be. That's what mypoint boils down to at heart - Rand does what he has to do, Egwene goes beyond what she has to do.

 

 

As for the rankings by bravery (which seems to me to be a foolish exercise, but whatever, if you want to play that game, we can)

I initially brought it up in another Egwene thread to see if it could lead to some new debate, rather than the typical Egwene bashing. I brought it up here for the same reason, although some people appear to have noticed it this time. For this, I credit XXX47, whose relentless trolling has helped so much.

Rand has faced far greater threats and dangers (far, far, far, far, far to the nth degree...) but they have both reacted to threats with courage.

Both have faced the Chosen, both have had their lives in danger - I fail to see how Rand's threats and dangers so vastly surpass Egwene's.

The argument that Egwene is braver because she choose her path and Rand did not is extremely silly. I choose to fight fires for a living. That doesn't make me automatically braver than a random passerby who pulls people from a burning building (the opposite is very probably true). Bravery is in the action, not in how you came to find yourself in a position to act.

I would disagree with that analogy - I see it as more like a man trapped in a burning building and another man outside, firefighter or not. The man in the building can stay put and hope for rescue, or try and find his way out, but he has no choice about being in a burning building. The man outside doesn't have to run in to save people - he has a choice about whether or not he puts himself in danger. And I see a willingness to put your life at risk as being braver (if usually also more foolish) than finding your life in danger and merely trying to survive.

 

 

Yes, she chose to leave the Two Rivers with the boys. But then, she kind of had to go to the Tower to learn since she had the spark. And then, she didn't really choose to get abducted by the Seanchan. Nor did she ask to be sent hunting the Black Ajah. Or to be a Dreamer and have to learn more to avoid hurting herself by accident. Or to be summoned to become the Amyrlin seat in Salidar. She basically got bumped from one place to another and had no choice but to adapt. Admittedly, in some cases, she could have said no and run away. But so could have Rand. She didn't run away because she was brave enough and had a sense of duty strong enough to stay and do her best. And as we know, when she decides to do her best, she's kind of good at it.

Nynaeve hadn't gone to the WT by that point - Egwene didn't have to. She could have stayed at hom in the TR and been safe. She didn't need to go to Fal Dara, or the Eye. She didn't ask to hunt BA, but she chose to go running to Tear to face them. She didn't have to learn how to Dream - she could have gone back to the WT, or with Elayne and Nynaeve to Tanchico. She didn't have to admit to the Wise Ones that she had broken her word to them and gone into T'a'r unsupervised. If she didn't want to be Amyrlin, she could have tried to mess up in the ceremony so she didn't get chosen - and after being chosen she could have been a mere puppet of the Hall, but instead chose to take charge. She declared war on Elaida, she took charge of turning one of the harbour chains to cuendillar, she used her skill to fight back against Elaida rather than submitting to the harsh discipline, she fought the Seanchan, she reunited the Tower. She had a choice, unless you wish to declare that every action she ever undertook was determined by the Wheel, driven by ta'veren, or suchlike, of which there is no real evidence. At every stage that Egwene could have turned her back on things, gone for a safe and simple life, she refused.

 

Rand had no choice. He couldn't run. He tried, it failed. He didn't accept he was the Dragon Reborn until the end of the third book. Yes, there were instances on the way, he did have a choice at times, much as there were times Egwene had little choice. But if we look at the general pattern, Egwene was not forced into the position she found herself in, Rand was.

 

 

I have to agree with what others have said about much of the recent Egwene/AS bashing becoming rather tiresome. I'm not a big Egwene fan, and there are legitimate criticisms to be levelled against her, and the same with the AS, but so many posts recently just exaggerate this to a ludicrous degree - Egwene is worse than the Chosen! No AS can do anything right!

 

Now, is Egwene Rand's equal? In what respect? Rand is necessary for the continued survival of the world, but he is not alone in that. Rand commands more soldiers, rules more countries, that much is not in doubt. In terms of political skill, military ability, Egwene is clearly better at the former, and I wouldn't say either has much of an edge in terms of the latter. In terms of bravery, I stand by an argument I made a while back - Rand essentially had no choice, while Egwene did make choices to make her a part of the story. Therefore Egwene is braver, because she chose this. Rand can only make the best of a bad situation. In terms of morals, that depends entirely on the reader. Even those who believe morals are objective are not necessarily going to be in agreement about what the objective truth is. Egwene is important - perhaps even vital - to the world, as is Rand. To attempt to argue about whether or not they are equal is pointless.

 

 

You must be kidding me..the Dragon and the Amyrlin are equal in military ability?...Rand has 3 out of 4 great captains sworn to him,has a lot more armies, Mat and Perin are loyal to him. He is the chief of the Aiel,the best fighters in all of Randland.

None of which is relevant. If I have competent generals working for me, it doesn't say anything about the competence of my generalship. Look at PoD - Rand takes charge, overrules a Great Captain, and loses. Conversely, Egwene has a Great Captain working for her, but she hasn't seen fit to go around overruling him on military matters. Not that she has had much opportunity.

 

Individually Rand can melt Egwene out of existence at the blink of an eye..they are equal seriously?

I never said they were equal in strength in the power, nor in knowledge of weaves. Rand is clearly stronger, as for weaves Rand probably has more knowledge now, thanks to LTT, but Egwene's knowledge is not inconsiderable.

 

And why exactly is Egwene vital to the World as Rand..if she is dead another Amyrlin will be chosen.

I said Egwene, not the Amyrlin. We know there are people other than Rand who are necessary. Look at Min's Viewing from EotW 15: The whole group - "Sparks swirling around you, thousands of them, and a big shadow, darker than midnight. The sparks are trying to fill the shadow, and the shadow is trying to swallow the sparks. You are all tied together in something dangerous." A later Viewing shows "Countless thousands of sparkling lights, like stars or fireflies, rushed into a great blackness, trying to fill it up, rushed in and were swallowed. There seemed to be more lights than she had ever seen before, but the darkness swallowed them at a greater rate, too." Egwene is a part of things. Maybe she can do something another Amyrlin couldn't, or maybe she has an importance beyond being the Amyrlin.

[XXX]

I must say, some of this stuff does leave something of a nasty taste in the mouth. This continual highlighting of Rand's superiority, and the inferiority of Egwene and the AS is rather unpleasant. This goes beyond a mere dislike of Egwene and the Tower.

 

 

Atleast Rand is superior...Egwene thinks she is when clearly she is completely inferior to him in every respect. She wants him to "submit" to her little tower.

 

None of which is relevant. If I have competent generals working for me, it doesn't say anything about the competence of my generalship. Look at PoD - Rand takes charge, overrules a Great Captain, and loses. Conversely, Egwene has a Great Captain working for her, but she hasn't seen fit to go around overruling him on military matters. Not that she has had much opportunity.

 

Rand has the memories of LTT who was a great general in the AoL. He personally knows as much as the great captains today. Plus 3 great captians of today's age plus Mat and Perrin compared to Bryne who Egwene has.Not to speak of the Aiel. Yes..similar in military ability..sure.

 

What battle has Egwene fought with armies anyway?

 

I never said they were equal in strength in the power, nor in knowledge of weaves. Rand is clearly stronger, as for weaves Rand probably has more knowledge now, thanks to LTT, but Egwene's knowledge is not inconsiderable.

 

Probably strong?..probably?. lol. He is the strongest channeler ever born.

 

Egwene's knowledge of weaves is what the 1/2 trained so called AS of this age have...again not even in the same ballpark. She splits her weaves 14 ways?..he splits it so many ways they can't even count it!!

 

I said Egwene, not the Amyrlin. We know there are people other than Rand who are necessary. Look at Min's Viewing from EotW 15: The whole group - "Sparks swirling around you, thousands of them, and a big shadow, darker than midnight. The sparks are trying to fill the shadow, and the shadow is trying to swallow the sparks. You are all tied together in something dangerous." A later Viewing shows "Countless thousands of sparkling lights, like stars or fireflies, rushed into a great blackness, trying to fill it up, rushed in and were swallowed. There seemed to be more lights than she had ever seen before, but the darkness swallowed them at a greater rate, too." Egwene is a part of things. Maybe she can do something another Amyrlin couldn't, or maybe she has an importance beyond being the Amyrlin.

 

 

 

The only people actually vital are Rand,Perrin and Mat with Moraine needed to win. Min's viewings have nothing about Egwene being necessary.

[Rose]

Egwene should be on her knees in front of Rand..that she ask him to "submit" to her foolish tower makes her delusional.

I must say, some of this stuff does leave something of a nasty taste in the mouth. This continual highlighting of Rand's superiority, and the inferiority of Egwene and the AS is rather unpleasant. This goes beyond a mere dislike of Egwene and the Tower.

I agree. It sounds a lot like "All those bitches should get on their knees and grovel because that's their rightful place." Not something I like to hear, no matter who and what situation it is about.

 

Yes, she chose to leave the Two Rivers with the boys. But then, she kind of had to go to the Tower to learn since she had the spark. And then, she didn't really choose to get abducted by the Seanchan. Nor did she ask to be sent hunting the Black Ajah. Or to be a Dreamer and have to learn more to avoid hurting herself by accident. Or to be summoned to become the Amyrlin seat in Salidar. She basically got bumped from one place to another and had no choice but to adapt. Admittedly, in some cases, she could have said no and run away. But so could have Rand. She didn't run away because she was brave enough and had a sense of duty strong enough to stay and do her best. And as we know, when she decides to do her best, she's kind of good at it.

Nynaeve hadn't gone to the WT by that point - Egwene didn't have to. She could have stayed at hom in the TR and been safe. She didn't need to go to Fal Dara, or the Eye. She didn't ask to hunt BA, but she chose to go running to Tear to face them. She didn't have to learn how to Dream - she could have gone back to the WT, or with Elayne and Nynaeve to Tanchico. She didn't have to admit to the Wise Ones that she had broken her word to them and gone into T'a'r unsupervised. If she didn't want to be Amyrlin, she could have tried to mess up in the ceremony so she didn't get chosen - and after being chosen she could have been a mere puppet of the Hall, but instead chose to take charge. She declared war on Elaida, she took charge of turning one of the harbour chains to cuendillar, she used her skill to fight back against Elaida rather than submitting to the harsh discipline, she fought the Seanchan, she reunited the Tower. She had a choice, unless you wish to declare that every action she ever undertook was determined by the Wheel, driven by ta'veren, or suchlike, of which there is no real evidence. At every stage that Egwene could have turned her back on things, gone for a safe and simple life, she refused.

 

Rand had no choice. He couldn't run. He tried, it failed. He didn't accept he was the Dragon Reborn until the end of the third book. Yes, there were instances on the way, he did have a choice at times, much as there were times Egwene had little choice. But if we look at the general pattern, Egwene was not forced into the position she found herself in, Rand was.

Well, that was kind of my point. I guess we can argue on how much choice she had exactly and what we mean by 'choice', but that's not really important. My point was that:

1) She didn't just go and say "Make me Amyrlin because I'm so much better than everybody else"! All of these things happened to her, because she had great potential and people around her could see it (or, in some cases, they just wanted to manipulate her, but well, too bad for them). Hence my emphasizing that she didn't really have too much of a choice, not to show that she didn't display bravery, but to show that she didn't reach he present situation through greed or arrogance, like some people seem to suggest.

2) As you said, in many of these instances she could have fled but she didn't, because she was strong, dutiful and brave. Re-read what I wrote, because that's what I was trying to say, but I guess it wasn't clear enough.

 

As for the people (person?) who insist on hating on Egwene all over the place: Well, yes, OBVIOUSLY, nobody is more important than the Dragon Reborn. Of course, Rand is the strongest channeller alive. Nobody is questioning that, or the fact that thanks to LTT's memories, he has unprecedented knowledge and abilities. But that's no reason to knock Egwene down and trample her with a passion. She's a character like any other. She has strengths like everybody else, and she makes mistakes like everybody else. So she did something you didn't like. Boo-hoo. Get over it.

 

Sheesh.

[XXX]

Egwene should be on her knees in front of Rand..that she ask him to "submit" to her foolish tower makes her delusional.

I must say, some of this stuff does leave something of a nasty taste in the mouth. This continual highlighting of Rand's superiority, and the inferiority of Egwene and the AS is rather unpleasant. This goes beyond a mere dislike of Egwene and the Tower.

I agree. It sounds a lot like "All those bitches should get on their knees and grovel because that's their rightful place." Not something I like to hear, no matter who and what situation it is about.

 

 

That is interesting when the entire series is filled with women thinking the same about the men...Egwene herself thinks that even about the Dragon Reborn. "Submit to the tower?"

[Aiyen kin Leary]

Are the Dragon and Amyrlin equal? Depends on what you're comparing. If you mean in terms of quality as people, then roughly yes. Both of them have done their best to see their duty done. Both of them are ill-trained young adults from a very isolated part of the world who were thrown into positions of great power, and have tried to cope. Both have done great things seeking to provide unity and leadership. And both of them have been somewhat corrupted by their newfound power.

 

Rand turned into an insane warlord who was willing to slaughter innocents almost casually at Far Madding. Egwene turned into a leader who forced her friends to submit to her and bullied the Aes Sedai into serving her vision for the White Tower. Neither is exactly warm and fuzzy! Yet both of them wanted to do the right thing, and made what mistakes they made out of misunderstanding, fear, riculous amounts of stress and Shadow influence (taint on saidin, anyone? And what exactly did Halima do to Egwene?). In terms of honor, both of them are very good people, and about equal.

 

Now if you mean in terms of importance to the world, things are murkier. Rand is clearly needed for the Last Battle; from the emphasis RJ put on the reunification of the White Tower it appears likely that Egwene is as well, albeit in a (likely) more indirect way. What is the least important link in a chain? Rand gets the most power, by far (tied with Moridin for strongest channeler of all time, has all the knowledge of Lews Therin, commands a large part of the Aiel and Westlands, has both Aes Sedai and Asha'man, etc.), but both are needed.

[Rose]

Egwene should be on her knees in front of Rand..that she ask him to "submit" to her foolish tower makes her delusional.

I must say, some of this stuff does leave something of a nasty taste in the mouth. This continual highlighting of Rand's superiority, and the inferiority of Egwene and the AS is rather unpleasant. This goes beyond a mere dislike of Egwene and the Tower.

I agree. It sounds a lot like "All those bitches should get on their knees and grovel because that's their rightful place." Not something I like to hear, no matter who and what situation it is about.

 

 

That is interesting when the entire series is filled with women thinking the same about the men...Egwene herself thinks that even about the Dragon Reborn. "Submit to the tower?"

Really? That's what women think about men? Thoughts full of spite and hatred? My dear, you are reading the books with distorted lenses. If that's your perception, then of course you would say things like this. Well, at least I understand better now. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I now see that there isn't really any point debating with you since we're not reading the same books.

[XXX]

I read the books were men are not trusted to make decisions, where the AS a female group ruled over the rest of the wetlands, where the current keeper for the Amyrlin says men cannot be trusted, where the current Amyrlin treats her boyfriend like dirt and asks the Dragon to submit to the tower because of course the females would know better than him.

 

What books have you been reading?

[Rose]

Well, of course that has nothing to do with this thread. Maybe it would be more productive to create a "Why XXX47 hates Egwene and Aes Sedai" thread and leave all the others alone. But to answer your question, I was under the impression that mistrust and arrogance are not the same as contempt and hatred. You know, like the difference between "I know better than you so you should do as I say" and "You're a worm who deserves to be crushed". That being said, I'm sure you'll find a way to explain to me why I'm completely wrong, but I won't see your answer until tonight, so have fun with it in the meantime.

[MasterAblar]

Even if the Seanchan just control Tarbaon, Altara and Amadacia that is nearly 1/3 the landmass of Randland..and they have the strongest army by far matched only by what the Dragon commands. Another reason for Egwene to bow before the Dragon..without his help her WT has no hope against the Seachan armies.

 

Taraboner were rebelling with Ilturade..it still does not take away the fact that the Seachan are far far stronger than Tar Valon. Or are you going to argue that the As can fight off the Seachan by them self without the Dragon's help?

 

The only 2 Monarchs not sworn to Rand one way or the other are Egwene and Elayne..both are facing massive attacks. I think he will help both on the condition that they swear to him. This way he can enforce the Dragon's peace at least on most of Randland.

 

 

Rand was not able to defeat the Seanchan either. No nation in Aviendha's vision will be able to. Does that mean everyone is inferior to Tuon. No.

 

This topic is illogical and unnecessary. Of course, Rand is the most important person on the planet as was Lews Therin Telamon in his time. Only they could/can fight against the Dark One. That doesn't mean Egwene's importance is negligent, or is Mat or Perrin or Elayne etc. They're all needed just like when the champion of the Light goes to the Shadow, the Light doesn't win. It merely "draws" as RJ said. Everyone is needed.

 

Rand never tried to defeat them. His camppaign in Altara was never meant to clear the Senchan off the continent. It was merely to throw them back from Illian which they were getting dangerously close to. And he did just that.

 

People always seem to consider that whole thing a complete failure. But even if that last battle was at worst a tactical draw (both think they lost, but both are unaware that the other side got hit by the lighting as well), but if you take in the whole thing, it's a huge strategic victory. With fewer troops, most of whose loyalty was questionable, he managed to throw the Seanchan all the way back to Ebou Dar, with them suffering considerable more losses.

 

In fact if Callandor hadn't gone haywire, something Rand could never have foreseen, the victory would have been absolute. I don't see how Rand can be claimed to be a bad military leader when, if it wasn't for a completely unexpected element in Callandor, he would have achived a huge victory.

 

Besides it certainly left a lasting impression with the Senchan. They haven't even attempted to attack Illian since then, which was sort of the whole point of Rand's campaign in Altara.

[Mr Ares]

None of which is relevant. If I have competent generals working for me, it doesn't say anything about the competence of my generalship. Look at PoD - Rand takes charge, overrules a Great Captain, and loses. Conversely, Egwene has a Great Captain working for her, but she hasn't seen fit to go around overruling him on military matters. Not that she has had much opportunity.

 

Rand has the memories of LTT who was a great general in the AoL. He personally knows as much as the great captains today. Plus 3 great captians of today's age plus Mat and Perrin compared to Bryne who Egwene has.Not to speak of the Aiel. Yes..similar in military ability..sure.

 

What battle has Egwene fought with armies anyway?

The Aiel are irrelevant, as their fighting skill says nothing of Rand's personal military skill. I could accept that what I said at first might have been misconstrued, but surely my clarification should have cleared up any misunderstanding? I did specify I was talking about the competence of Rand as a general, versus that of Egwene as a general, not in the capabilities of their respective armed forces. Having any number of Great Captains under you is thus not in the slightest bit a relevant consideration. The only thing you bring up that is even remotely related to what I said was LTT's competence as a general, but which battles has he won in the series? I also pointed out that Egwene has lacked opportunity to prove herself as a general.

 

I never said they were equal in strength in the power, nor in knowledge of weaves. Rand is clearly stronger, as for weaves Rand probably has more knowledge now, thanks to LTT, but Egwene's knowledge is not inconsiderable.

 

Probably strong?..probably?. lol. He is the strongest channeler ever born.

I said Rand was clearly stronger - no equivocation. A word of advice: if you wish to put words in my mouth, it helps if you don't include verbatim quotes of my actual words right next to your outright fabrications, as it just makes you look a little bit silly.

 

Egwene's knowledge of weaves is what the 1/2 trained so called AS of this age have...again not even in the same ballpark. She splits her weaves 14 ways?..he splits it so many ways they can't even count it!!

Egwene's knowledge of weaves is that of the Third Age AS, what was learnt from Moghedien, and things she has figured out for herself (entering T'a'r in the flesh was all her, Traveling as well, and making cuendillar was pieced together from a description). That's a not inconsiderable knowledge of weaves, and it is quite possible that she knows many things Rand does not. Number of weaves isn't related to knowledge of weaves, and therefore is of no relevance to the point.

 

I said Egwene, not the Amyrlin. We know there are people other than Rand who are necessary. Look at Min's Viewing from EotW 15: The whole group - "Sparks swirling around you, thousands of them, and a big shadow, darker than midnight. The sparks are trying to fill the shadow, and the shadow is trying to swallow the sparks. You are all tied together in something dangerous." A later Viewing shows "Countless thousands of sparkling lights, like stars or fireflies, rushed into a great blackness, trying to fill it up, rushed in and were swallowed. There seemed to be more lights than she had ever seen before, but the darkness swallowed them at a greater rate, too." Egwene is a part of things. Maybe she can do something another Amyrlin couldn't, or maybe she has an importance beyond being the Amyrlin.

The only people actually vital are Rand,Perrin and Mat with Moraine needed to win. Min's viewings have nothing about Egwene being necessary.

Well now, I'm convinced. All it took was your assurance that only certain people are necessary, with no line of reasoning to back it up, and I'm blown away.

 

 

Egwene should be on her knees in front of Rand..that she ask him to "submit" to her foolish tower makes her delusional.

I must say, some of this stuff does leave something of a nasty taste in the mouth. This continual highlighting of Rand's superiority, and the inferiority of Egwene and the AS is rather unpleasant. This goes beyond a mere dislike of Egwene and the Tower.

I agree. It sounds a lot like "All those bitches should get on their knees and grovel because that's their rightful place." Not something I like to hear, no matter who and what situation it is about.

The only reason I don't call it sexism is that it's confined to one group of women rather than insisting that all women should be on their knees before him. The sentiment is still quite disgusting though.

 

Yes, she chose to leave the Two Rivers with the boys. But then, she kind of had to go to the Tower to learn since she had the spark. And then, she didn't really choose to get abducted by the Seanchan. Nor did she ask to be sent hunting the Black Ajah. Or to be a Dreamer and have to learn more to avoid hurting herself by accident. Or to be summoned to become the Amyrlin seat in Salidar. She basically got bumped from one place to another and had no choice but to adapt. Admittedly, in some cases, she could have said no and run away. But so could have Rand. She didn't run away because she was brave enough and had a sense of duty strong enough to stay and do her best. And as we know, when she decides to do her best, she's kind of good at it.

Nynaeve hadn't gone to the WT by that point - Egwene didn't have to. She could have stayed at hom in the TR and been safe. She didn't need to go to Fal Dara, or the Eye. She didn't ask to hunt BA, but she chose to go running to Tear to face them. She didn't have to learn how to Dream - she could have gone back to the WT, or with Elayne and Nynaeve to Tanchico. She didn't have to admit to the Wise Ones that she had broken her word to them and gone into T'a'r unsupervised. If she didn't want to be Amyrlin, she could have tried to mess up in the ceremony so she didn't get chosen - and after being chosen she could have been a mere puppet of the Hall, but instead chose to take charge. She declared war on Elaida, she took charge of turning one of the harbour chains to cuendillar, she used her skill to fight back against Elaida rather than submitting to the harsh discipline, she fought the Seanchan, she reunited the Tower. She had a choice, unless you wish to declare that every action she ever undertook was determined by the Wheel, driven by ta'veren, or suchlike, of which there is no real evidence. At every stage that Egwene could have turned her back on things, gone for a safe and simple life, she refused.

 

Rand had no choice. He couldn't run. He tried, it failed. He didn't accept he was the Dragon Reborn until the end of the third book. Yes, there were instances on the way, he did have a choice at times, much as there were times Egwene had little choice. But if we look at the general pattern, Egwene was not forced into the position she found herself in, Rand was.

Well, that was kind of my point. I guess we can argue on how much choice she had exactly and what we mean by 'choice', but that's not really important. My point was that:

1) She didn't just go and say "Make me Amyrlin because I'm so much better than everybody else"! All of these things happened to her, because she had great potential and people around her could see it (or, in some cases, they just wanted to manipulate her, but well, too bad for them). Hence my emphasizing that she didn't really have too much of a choice, not to show that she didn't display bravery, but to show that she didn't reach he present situation through greed or arrogance, like some people seem to suggest.

2) As you said, in many of these instances she could have fled but she didn't, because she was strong, dutiful and brave. Re-read what I wrote, because that's what I was trying to say, but I guess it wasn't clear enough.

No, I understood your point. However, I did disagree with some things that you said. For example: "she could have said no and run away. But so could have Rand." As I said, Rand could not run away even if he wanted to (which he did, early on). I also think that you overstate your case somewhat to say: "She basically got bumped from one place to another and had no choice but to adapt." There was a degree of bumping, to be sure, but she seized on opportunities as well.

[Rose]

No, I understood your point. However, I did disagree with some things that you said. For example: "she could have said no and run away. But so could have Rand." As I said, Rand could not run away even if he wanted to (which he did, early on). I also think that you overstate your case somewhat to say: "She basically got bumped from one place to another and had no choice but to adapt." There was a degree of bumping, to be sure, but she seized on opportunities as well.

Fair enough. I may have exaggerated a bit. I still think Rand could have run away as well, though. It would have been a disaster, much worse than for Egwene of course, and he would have had to live the knowledge that he had doomed the world, but he could have.

[MasterAblar]

I don't really see how Rand or Egwene are braver than eachother. How does Egwene really have a choice? Is she a moral person, does she have a conscience? Then she never really had a choice. But that doesn't make what she did anything but extremely brave. Just like the fact that Rand's actions are just as brave despite the fact that he had no choice in the matter, because as Tam said if Rand had the choice he would not have done differently. And that because Rand is a moral person with a conscience, and because he like Egwene do not ignore their responsability to the world. Therefore just as Egwene acted responsible when she refused to be a puppet and choose to right the WT, Rand was just as responsible when he finaly accepted that he was the Dragon.

 

As for Rand taking a book (tGH) to accept that he was the Dragon, I think that can be forgiven when you consider just what it means to be the Dragon, and in any case Egwene has never had to face that.

[MasterAblar]

The Aiel are irrelevant, as their fighting skill says nothing of Rand's personal military skill. I could accept that what I said at first might have been misconstrued, but surely my clarification should have cleared up any misunderstanding? I did specify I was talking about the competence of Rand as a general, versus that of Egwene as a general, not in the capabilities of their respective armed forces. Having any number of Great Captains under you is thus not in the slightest bit a relevant consideration. The only thing you bring up that is even remotely related to what I said was LTT's competence as a general, but which battles has he won in the series? I also pointed out that Egwene has lacked opportunity to prove herself as a general.

 

We know that LTT was more or less the greatest general in the AoL, even if he hasn't fought any battles in the current series. Egwene has lacked oppurtunity because she has left military things to Gareth Bryne, so she never tried her hand. She clearly thought it best to leave those things to people who were more experienced, more knowlegable. While Rand is already a good military leader, if not the best, with addition of LTT, it sort of kills any possible comparison.

[randsc]

Egwene should be on her knees in front of Rand..that she ask him to "submit" to her foolish tower makes her delusional.

I must say, some of this stuff does leave something of a nasty taste in the mouth. This continual highlighting of Rand's superiority, and the inferiority of Egwene and the AS is rather unpleasant. This goes beyond a mere dislike of Egwene and the Tower.

I agree. It sounds a lot like "All those bitches should get on their knees and grovel because that's their rightful place." Not something I like to hear, no matter who and what situation it is about.

 

Actually, it's nothing like that at all. And no, it doesn't "go beyond a mere dislike of Egwene and the Tower."

 

Do you see people wanting, say, the Wise Ones "put in their place?" No, you don't. The reaction against Egwene and the Aes Sedai is due primarily to two factors. Their overwheening arrogance and unwarranted belief in their own superiority ("Have you come to submit yourself tot he guidance of the Tower"), and the slurs employed by Egwene's supporters in fan-dom ("You just don't like gurlz! Wah, wah, Boo-hoo-hoo"). And yes, the implication of unthinking sexism is a slur.

[Muad Cheade]

The Seanchan have always had as many soldiers as the plot demands. No matter how many times they are defeated, more magically appear. Doesn't mean Tuon is the most important character as Muad Cheade says.

1). The Seanchan brought in troops from the Hailene, the Corenne and recruits from conquered lands. That's it. 2). That's not what I said. Read again.

 

Rand never tried to defeat them. His camppaign in Altara was never meant to clear the Senchan off the continent. It was merely to throw them back from Illian which they were getting dangerously close to. And he did just that.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but when going into to battle against a foe, the objective is to defeat them, no? And if I recall correctly, after he had stopped their advance, he did attempt to throw them into the sea and failed.

 

People always seem to consider that whole thing a complete failure. But even if that last battle was at worst a tactical draw (both think they lost, but both are unaware that the other side got hit by the lighting as well), but if you take in the whole thing, it's a huge strategic victory. With fewer troops, most of whose loyalty was questionable, he managed to throw the Seanchan all the way back to Ebou Dar, with them suffering considerable more losses.

At worst it was a defeat, at best a draw. However it certainly wasn't any kind of victory. Had Rand listened to Bashere and Gregorin, it would not have ended as it had.

 

In fact if Callandor hadn't gone haywire, something Rand could never have foreseen, the victory would have been absolute. I don't see how Rand can be claimed to be a bad military leader when, if it wasn't for a completely unexpected element in Callandor, he would have achived a huge victory.

That's a big if. "If" the Seanchan had been able to consolidate their forces more quickly, "if" saidar wasn't iffy around Ebou Dar, "if the Seanchan knew exactly how many soldiers they were fighting, "if" the arrow (or Anaiyella and Ailil) had killed Rand, etc. Every battle is full of ifs. Rand may not be a bad commander but he makes mistakes such as not listening to his more experienced lieutenants (i.e. Battle of Cairhien with Lan, Battle of Ebou Dar with Bashere and Gregorin etc)

 

Besides it certainly left a lasting impression with the Senchan. They haven't even attempted to attack Illian since then, which was sort of the whole point of Rand's campaign in Altara.

Why expand to the east where there is a large army of soldiers, Aiel, and Asha'man when you can go in every other direction and conquer? And if you're going to use that logic, that battle also left a lasting impression on Rand as he hasn't attempted to attack them since (excluding him with the Choedan Kal) or try to contain them.

[randsc]

No, sorry Maud, but keeping the Seanchan from Illian was in fact at victory. Even on a tactical level, the outcome of the battle was a draw.

 

And if you recall Rand attempting to throw the Seanchan into the sea and failing, your recollection is faulty. It never happened.

 

The text is quite clear that the Seanchan considered themselves to have been defeated, and sought easier targets.

[Muad Cheade]

How was it a victory? It wasn't even a pyrrhic victory. It didn't halt the Seanchan nor did it give Rand any tactical advantage or even convince him he could beat the Seanchan before Tarmon Gai'din. Also, if both sides think it's a loss then no one won.

 

Yeah...read the jacket cover of Path of Daggers. In addition, Rand had decided to take Ebou Dar, because "no one would expect that." And of course it never happened, Rand lost. Or drew. Whichever you prefer.

 

And like I said, at worst it was a loss, at best a draw. Rand didn't stop the Seanchan nor did he alter their plans.

[randsc]

He did stop them. That's simply a fact. I'll agree that he didn't alter their long term plans, but he sure as hell changed their priorities.

 

At best, it was a victory, at worst, a draw. They tried to take Illian. They did not take Illian. You want to try to spin that into a victory?

[David Selig]

Verin told Rand in WH that the Seanchan have started entering Illian again:

 

“Oh, yes. The Seanchan. They are in Illian. Not the city, not yet; no need to go pale. But they have crossed the border. They are building fortified camps along the coast and inland.

[randsc]

Verin told Rand in WH that the Seanchan have started entering Illian again:

 

“Oh, yes. The Seanchan. They are in Illian. Not the city, not yet; no need to go pale. But they have crossed the border. They are building fortified camps along the coast and inland.

 

More than a year later.

[plague fiend]

Egwene thinks so!!..in fact ,I think she thinks she is superior considering that she demands that he "submit" to the tower.

 

I don't think that Egwene believes that she is superior to Rand. I think that she believes that the AS and the tower are in a fragile state right now and she unwisely is trying to project strength and unbending will. The AS, Egwene included will realize the severity of that mistake.

[David Selig]

Verin told Rand in WH that the Seanchan have started entering Illian again:

 

“Oh, yes. The Seanchan. They are in Illian. Not the city, not yet; no need to go pale. But they have crossed the border. They are building fortified camps along the coast and inland.

 

More than a year later.

I don't follow. An year later than what?

 

For the record, I think Rand did indeed won the campaign against the Seanchan in PoD, I just wanted to correct the earlier posted notion that the Seanchan haven't tried attacking Illian after that.

[MasterAblar]

How was it a victory? It wasn't even a pyrrhic victory. It didn't halt the Seanchan nor did it give Rand any tactical advantage or even convince him he could beat the Seanchan before Tarmon Gai'din. Also, if both sides think it's a loss then no one won.

 

Yeah...read the jacket cover of Path of Daggers. In addition, Rand had decided to take Ebou Dar, because "no one would expect that." And of course it never happened, Rand lost. Or drew. Whichever you prefer.

 

And like I said, at worst it was a loss, at best a draw. Rand didn't stop the Seanchan nor did he alter their plans.

 

In that last battle both sides think they lost, so it come downt to whether Rand took out more of his own troops than the Seanchan. Rand was not attempting to utterly defeat the Seanchan. Throw them back, warn them off yes, but do you really think he meant to take Altara, Amadicia, and Tarabon with that small army he took.

At the end Rand wanted to leave a lasting impression on the Seanchan of his stength. He succeded. Problem is he hurt himself as well. Which is why that is a draw. Neither army fulfilled their objectives in that last battle.

However if you look at the whole campaign, the Seanchan lost a lot more than Rand.

 

Rand has not tried to attack them again because not only did he not have the time to, but also because he realised that he could not afford to fight them and the Seanchan at the same time.

The Seanchan are still going to want to conquer everything, including Illian, but they're going to be a lot more cautious about it. The whole battle won Rand a lot of time, and made it clear to the Seanchan that they wouldn't be having as easy a time as they had predicted.

 

All those "if's" you mentioned were throuch Rand's actions, and saidin was just as iffy as saidar. Callandor was something that no one could have predicted and it only affected Rand. Rand could not have known that Callandor would not work.