Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[Luckers]

Ok everyone, back on topic or this thread goes bye bye.

[Glip]

Seriously? This thread's still going? It's not hard. A political office doesn't compare with the person hand-crafted as the champion of Creation and the saviour of existence.

 

Put it this way: Obama just doesn't touch on Jesus Christ.

 

I agree. Rand is more important than the amyrlin.

 

Haha just to put some oil on this fire...

You could argue the point that the office of Amyrlin Seat(whomevers backside warms it) has more political, economical, environmental, spiritual, educational and social influence on the world since it simply has more time to act. The champion of the light is spun out by the pattern for one single purpose, the preservation of creation. One lifetime to act (and it looks like a rather short one this time) does not leave a whole lot of room to exert influence on a personal level over, let's say, a person living half a millennium after his death. The office of Amyrlin however could easily still exist by that time and influence that person...

Just like comparing Obama to Jesus... When you bring real life into a discussion concerning fiction I could argue that Mr. Obama has way more direct control over my life then Jesus (also, I feel I should mention my being agnostic here).

 

So are we comparing Rands current power to Egwenes current power or are we comparing the station of Champion of Light to the station of Amyrlin? For the latter I'd say there is a difference in power, but due to the difference in purpose they are ofcourse incomparable really.

[UncleButcher1980]

Ok everyone, back on topic or this thread goes bye bye.

 

Oh yes, please make this thread go away.

[XXX]

Seriously? This thread's still going? It's not hard. A political office doesn't compare with the person hand-crafted as the champion of Creation and the saviour of existence.

 

Put it this way: Obama just doesn't touch on Jesus Christ.

 

I agree. Rand is more important than the amyrlin.

 

Haha just to put some oil on this fire...

You could argue the point that the office of Amyrlin Seat(whomevers backside warms it) has more political, economical, environmental, spiritual, educational and social influence on the world since it simply has more time to act. The champion of the light is spun out by the pattern for one single purpose, the preservation of creation. One lifetime to act (and it looks like a rather short one this time) does not leave a whole lot of room to exert influence on a personal level over, let's say, a person living half a millennium after his death. The office of Amyrlin however could easily still exist by that time and influence that person...

Just like comparing Obama to Jesus... When you bring real life into a discussion concerning fiction I could argue that Mr. Obama has way more direct control over my life then Jesus (also, I feel I should mention my being agnostic here).

 

So are we comparing Rands current power to Egwenes current power or are we comparing the station of Champion of Light to the station of Amyrlin? For the latter I'd say there is a difference in power, but due to the difference in purpose they are ofcourse incomparable really.

 

 

Egwene as the Amyrlin wants the Dragon to "submit" to her tower...you don't ask the person vastly more powerful and important than you to "submit" to you unless of course you are completely delusional to how insignificant you are compared to him.

[Glip]

Seriously? This thread's still going? It's not hard. A political office doesn't compare with the person hand-crafted as the champion of Creation and the saviour of existence.

 

Put it this way: Obama just doesn't touch on Jesus Christ.

 

I agree. Rand is more important than the amyrlin.

 

Haha just to put some oil on this fire...

You could argue the point that the office of Amyrlin Seat(whomevers backside warms it) has more political, economical, environmental, spiritual, educational and social influence on the world since it simply has more time to act. The champion of the light is spun out by the pattern for one single purpose, the preservation of creation. One lifetime to act (and it looks like a rather short one this time) does not leave a whole lot of room to exert influence on a personal level over, let's say, a person living half a millennium after his death. The office of Amyrlin however could easily still exist by that time and influence that person...

Just like comparing Obama to Jesus... When you bring real life into a discussion concerning fiction I could argue that Mr. Obama has way more direct control over my life then Jesus (also, I feel I should mention my being agnostic here).

 

So are we comparing Rands current power to Egwenes current power or are we comparing the station of Champion of Light to the station of Amyrlin? For the latter I'd say there is a difference in power, but due to the difference in purpose they are ofcourse incomparable really.

 

 

Egwene as the Amyrlin wants the Dragon to "submit" to her tower...you don't ask the person vastly more powerful and important than you to "submit" to you unless of course you are completely delusional to how insignificant you are compared to him.

 

You are right, it is disproportionally presumptuous of Egwene to expect the fight against the Dark One will only go according to Tower Law as laid down by Miss Ain't-I-Awesome. But, playing devil's advocate here, there is a logic in her way of thinking. Rand plans to break the seals to make way for something better instead, but somehow, deliberate or not, did not tell Egwene he was working on a better way. He just said he was going to break the seals. Egwene has this idea that 'her' tower is the be all and end all of how the world should be ruled and has done a pretty good job of it as far as she herself is concerned, so both are at fault of this 'misinterpretation' of Rands role.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Seriously? This thread's still going? It's not hard. A political office doesn't compare with the person hand-crafted as the champion of Creation and the saviour of existence.

 

Put it this way: Obama just doesn't touch on Jesus Christ.

 

I agree. Rand is more important than the amyrlin.

 

Haha just to put some oil on this fire...

You could argue the point that the office of Amyrlin Seat(whomevers backside warms it) has more political, economical, environmental, spiritual, educational and social influence on the world since it simply has more time to act. The champion of the light is spun out by the pattern for one single purpose, the preservation of creation. One lifetime to act (and it looks like a rather short one this time) does not leave a whole lot of room to exert influence on a personal level over, let's say, a person living half a millennium after his death. The office of Amyrlin however could easily still exist by that time and influence that person...

Just like comparing Obama to Jesus... When you bring real life into a discussion concerning fiction I could argue that Mr. Obama has way more direct control over my life then Jesus (also, I feel I should mention my being agnostic here).

 

So are we comparing Rands current power to Egwenes current power or are we comparing the station of Champion of Light to the station of Amyrlin? For the latter I'd say there is a difference in power, but due to the difference in purpose they are ofcourse incomparable really.

 

 

Egwene as the Amyrlin wants the Dragon to "submit" to her tower...you don't ask the person vastly more powerful and important than you to "submit" to you unless of course you are completely delusional to how insignificant you are compared to him.

 

You are right, it is disproportionally presumptuous of Egwene to expect the fight against the Dark One will only go according to Tower Law as laid down by Miss Ain't-I-Awesome. But, playing devil's advocate here, there is a logic in her way of thinking. Rand plans to break the seals to make way for something better instead, but somehow, deliberate or not, did not tell Egwene he was working on a better way. He just said he was going to break the seals. Egwene has this idea that 'her' tower is the be all and end all of how the world should be ruled and has done a pretty good job of it as far as she herself is concerned, so both are at fault of this 'misinterpretation' of Rands role.

 

It is a good point.

[Kahsm]

 

Haha just to put some oil on this fire...

You could argue the point that the office of Amyrlin Seat(whomevers backside warms it) has more political, economical, environmental, spiritual, educational and social influence on the world since it simply has more time to act. The champion of the light is spun out by the pattern for one single purpose, the preservation of creation. One lifetime to act (and it looks like a rather short one this time) does not leave a whole lot of room to exert influence on a personal level over, let's say, a person living half a millennium after his death. The office of Amyrlin however could easily still exist by that time and influence that person...

Just like comparing Obama to Jesus... When you bring real life into a discussion concerning fiction I could argue that Mr. Obama has way more direct control over my life then Jesus (also, I feel I should mention my being agnostic here).

 

So are we comparing Rands current power to Egwenes current power or are we comparing the station of Champion of Light to the station of Amyrlin? For the latter I'd say there is a difference in power, but due to the difference in purpose they are ofcourse incomparable really.

 

 

Egwene as the Amyrlin wants the Dragon to "submit" to her tower...you don't ask the person vastly more powerful and important than you to "submit" to you unless of course you are completely delusional to how insignificant you are compared to him.

 

You are right, it is disproportionally presumptuous of Egwene to expect the fight against the Dark One will only go according to Tower Law as laid down by Miss Ain't-I-Awesome. But, playing devil's advocate here, there is a logic in her way of thinking. Rand plans to break the seals to make way for something better instead, but somehow, deliberate or not, did not tell Egwene he was working on a better way. He just said he was going to break the seals. Egwene has this idea that 'her' tower is the be all and end all of how the world should be ruled and has done a pretty good job of it as far as she herself is concerned, so both are at fault of this 'misinterpretation' of Rands role.

 

It is a good point.

 

This "she wants him to submit" thing has gone on far enough. Here's the quote:

"Why have you come before the Amyrlin Seat?" she asked. "Have you come to make a petition, or have you come to surrender yourself to the White Tower's guidance?"

 

Where's 'submit'? Nowhere in that quote. And before you point to "surrender yourself to guidance", she is simply asking him why he is there, and showing the Aes Sedai how tough she is as Amyrlin. You could also say she wants him to make a petition, since that was the first part of the question, but you conveniently leave that out -- it's rather disingenuous.

 

And I love this part:

"I've hated you before," Rand said, turning back to Egwene. "I've felt a lot of emotions, in recent months. It seems that from the very moment Moiraine came to the Two Rivers, I've been struggling to avoid Aes Sedai strings of control. And yet, I allowed other strings—more dangerous strings—to wrap around me unseen.

"It occurs to me that I've been trying too hard. I worried that if I listened to you, you'd control me. It wasn't a desire for independence that drove me, but a fear of irrelevance. A fear that the acts I accomplished would be yours, and not my own." He hesitated. "I should have wished for such a convenient set of backs upon which to heap the blame for my crimes."

Rand admits he's done bad things, and wishes he had worked with Egwene more closely in hindsight.

 

Which relates to Egwene thinking this to herself earlier in the scene:

From what she had heard of Rand recently, she had not anticipated such calm in him. Perhaps it was the calm of the criminal who had finally given himself up.

Was that how she thought of him? As a criminal? He had done acts that certainly seemed criminal; he had destroyed, he had conquered.

So if she had said that out loud, pretty clear Rand would not have disagreed by his own admission of wishing he had someone else to blame. He doesn't say it shouldn't have been done, but that they were bad things, thus justifying Egwene's similar opinion.

 

And here's the special moment that shoudl make you tear up:

Egwene frowned. The Dragon Reborn had come to the White Tower to engage in idle philosophy? Perhaps he had gone mad. "Rand," Egwene said, softening her tone. "I'm going to have some sisters talk to you to decide if there is anything . . . wrong with you. Please try to understand."

Once they knew more about his state, they could decide what to do with him. The Dragon Reborn did need freedom to do as the prophecies said he would, but could they simply let him roam away, now that they had him?

Rand smiled. "Oh, I do understand, Egwene. And I am sorry to deny you, but I have too much to do. People starve because of me, others live in terror of what I have done. A friend rides to his death without allies. There is so little time to do what I must."

"Rand," Egwene said, "we have to make sure."

He nodded, as if in understanding. "This is the part I regret. I did not wish to come into your center of power, which you have achieved so well, and defy you. But it cannot be helped. You must know what my plans are so that you can prepare.

Rand says he understands her position, compliments her on her achievement, and apologizes for defying her in front of the tower (which he realizes is a bad thing). But so many others deny her these things.

[Glip]

This "she wants him to submit" thing has gone on far enough.

 

I want to make it clear that I did not mean Egwene wants him to submit nor have I said so. I made a personal observation that Egwene understandably thinks she can go against Rands plan.

[Suttree]

Egwene as the Amyrlin wants the Dragon to "submit" to her tower...you don't ask the person vastly more powerful and important than you to "submit" to you unless of course you are completely delusional to how insignificant you are compared to him.

 

Please give one example where she has ever asked him to "submit" to her tower?

[Skeeve the Great]

Egwene as the Amyrlin wants the Dragon to "submit" to her tower...you don't ask the person vastly more powerful and important than you to "submit" to you unless of course you are completely delusional to how insignificant you are compared to him.

 

Please give one example where she has ever asked him to "submit" to her tower?

 

 

"Have you come to make a petition, or have you come to surrender yourself to the White Tower's guidance?"

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

perhaps she had her sarcasm font on.

[Suttree]

Egwene as the Amyrlin wants the Dragon to "submit" to her tower...you don't ask the person vastly more powerful and important than you to "submit" to you unless of course you are completely delusional to how insignificant you are compared to him.

 

Please give one example where she has ever asked him to "submit" to her tower?

 

 

"Have you come to make a petition, or have you come to surrender yourself to the White Tower's guidance?"

 

Which of course has been pointed out by others as meaning nothing close to "submit", she is asking why he is there and being formal. Asking if he has come for counsel is very different than XXXs claim of Egwene wanting him to "submit" to the WT as you well know.

[Skeeve the Great]

 

Which of course has been pointed out by others as meaning nothing close to "submit", she is asking why he is there and being formal. Asking if he has come for counsel is very different than XXXs claim of Egwene wanting him to "submit" to the WT as you well know.

 

Which I don't agree with. She gave him two choices: either surrender to WT guidance (which is submit in any normal sense) or make a petition, which is asking WT to do something. But asking Aes Sedai to do something, as was pointed out since the first chapters of the first book, is to accept their guidance and directions in all matters.

 

So basically, she didn't give him much of a choice, really. But yes, she is "formally" asked him to submit himself to the will of the WT.

[lilltempest]

 

Which of course has been pointed out by others as meaning nothing close to "submit", she is asking why he is there and being formal. Asking if he has come for counsel is very different than XXXs claim of Egwene wanting him to "submit" to the WT as you well know.

 

Which I don't agree with. She gave him two choices: either surrender to WT guidance (which is submit in any normal sense) or make a petition, which is asking WT to do something. But asking Aes Sedai to do something, as was pointed out since the first chapters of the first book, is to accept their guidance and directions in all matters.

 

So basically, she didn't give him much of a choice, really. But yes, she is "formally" asked him to submit himself to the will of the WT.

 

Exactly.

 

I find it amusing that people are arguing that "surrender" does not mean that she is asking/requesting/demanding (since we know that any "request" from the Amyrlin is as good as an order) him to submit. For those of you who clearly have a limited vocabulary, this is from dictionary.com:

 

sur·ren·der:

 

1. to yield (something) to the possession or power of another; deliver up possession of on demand or under duress: to surrender the fort to the enemy; to surrender the stolen goods to the police.

2. to give (oneself) up, as to the police.

3. to give (oneself) up to some influence, course, emotion, etc.: He surrendered himself to a life of hardship.

4. to give up, abandon, or relinquish (comfort, hope, etc.).

5. to yield or resign (an office, privilege, etc.) in favor of another.

6. to give oneself up, as into the power of another; submit or yield.

 

So Egwene using "surrender" is somehow proof that she isn't telling Rand to "submit"? Try again.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

if she was telling him to submit, why did she let him walk away? the dragon must be free, ya?

 

oh, skip it. you all have the whole book, you can all read every word in context instead of picking it apart into unrelated bits. you'd rather play with x rated trolls, i guess. i'm bored enough to understand that now.

[Skeeve the Great]

if she was telling him to submit, why did she let him walk away? the dragon must be free, ya?

 

What him walking away has to do with her telling to submit?

Are you saying that if I tell you to submit, but later on I didn't stop you to leave, then it means I didn't tell you to submit?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i'm saying if you had me surrounded, in your place of power, and were telling me to submit, you'd flaming well stop me from walking away. and even picking the sentences apart out of context, she's asking a question.

 

you're right. i am a wacko to be in this thread. i know it's a troll fest, and yet... bored.

 

i guess that's why the mods let it go on. there's nothing else happening.

[Elan Tedronai]

on the one hand egwene says the dragon should be free man, and left alone to fulfil his prophecies.

 

then she asks him if he is going to make a petition? i mean for what?

 

 

sanderson has already confirmed that the egwene in TOM was his and the one in TGS was jordan's. Not suprising really

[Skeeve the Great]

 

[UncleButcher1980]

Can we all please start talking about Jesus again? Because Luckers said he would close this thread if we did.

[Guest PiotrekS]

So let us imagine Budda visit the Dalai Lama (not to use another obvious example...).

 

Budda: Yo, you've done a good job, man. I respect your authority over your organization, which you have achieved so well.

Dalai Lama: Have you come to make a petition, or surrender yourself to my guidance?

 

If you think it sounds appropriate, then I'm not playing with you anymore

[Elan Tedronai]

 

 

 

 

 

yeah. egewene is just another elaida MK II

[Guest PiotrekS]

this submission buisness is yet another sanderson fuck up as per usual.

 

on the one hand egwene says the dragon should be free man, and left alone to fulfil his prophecies.

 

then she asks him if he is going to make a petition? i mean for what?

 

 

sanderson has already confirmed that the egwene in TOM was his and the one in TGS was jordan's. Not suprising really

 

You're right about the petition thing. It wasn't the smartest thing to say, we can assume she was in shock.

 

It is funny about Egwene in TGS and ToM though. I agree she's written differently, but oddly I see it other way round than you do. For me Egwene is much, much better written in ToM than in TGS. In ToM she at least resembles a literary character. In TGS she resembles Stalin from one of the propagandistic biographies, or, to choose a milder example, a saint from an official hagiography.

[Elan Tedronai]

.

 

on the one hand egwene says the dragon should be free man, and left alone to fulfil his prophecies.

 

then she asks him if he is going to make a petition? i mean for what?

 

 

sanderson has already confirmed that the egwene in TOM was his and the one in TGS was jordan's. Not suprising really

 

You're right about the petition thing. It wasn't the smartest thing to say, we can assume she was in shock.

 

It is funny about Egwene in TGS and ToM though. I agree she's written differently, but oddly I see it other way round than you do. For me Egwene is much, much better written in ToM than in TGS. In ToM she at least resembles a literary character. In TGS she resembles Stalin from one of the propagandistic biographies, or, to choose a milder example, a saint from an official hagiography.

 

 

The TGS egwene was abit too awesome for you piotreks?

 

the TGS egwene was realistic in that you knew and understood her goals. But the TOM egwene is filled with contradictions. Like the one i mentioned. Not too mention being too harsh on gawyn. sanderson in his attempt to 'put his mark' on the series has screwed up characters bigtime. from mat all the way to talmanes.

[lilltempest]

 

 

 

I agree. Egwene has always been controlling (I'm being nice) and, given that she forced everyone she possibly could into swearing fealty when RJ was still writing her (and had varying thoughts about "using" Rand, punishing Nynaeve, "dealing" with Rand, taking the side of strangers over Rand, always being "against" him and Nynaeve, etc.), I didn't find her behavior or thoughts in ToM to be out of line. I thought she was quite in character (and, to drive home the idea that BS was consistent with her, all characters around her behaved irrationally and stupid in order to make her look good...just like RJ wrote).

 

But, out of curiosity, where was it stated that the tGS Egwene was RJ's and the ToM Egwene was Brandon's?