Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[UncleButcher1980]

Yes I understand that is what you were trying to show and I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with you but I thought you were putting forth the Egwene POV as evidence that Nynaeve is stronger because she (Egwene) thinks it. But I'm just suggesting that it could reasonably be concluded from that POV that she doesn't think Nynaeve is stronger, not all the time anyway, which is why I couldn't see how it supported your argument. And I agree it is ridiculous, but I just want to reiterate it's not my premise! It's Egwene's. Or to be precise my interpretation of Egwene's thoughts.

[XXX]

OP measurement is not a matter for guessing in women if they do not hide their strength...Egwene knows that Ny is stronger but she thinks that she is equal because she can channel all the time compared to Nynaeve.

[Mr Ares]

Ares, I haven't been following this discussion at all, but when he says Moiraine describes Egwene vs Nyneave as a candle to a raging bonfire and you say he's not using evidence to back it up, I really think the problem lies in your reading skills and not in what he says.

If you were following this argument, you would have noticed that that wasn't the point I made - I didn't dispute the Moiraine quote (being already familiar with it), I asked XXX47 to back up, well, anything he has said in this thread at any point. Specifically, the notion that Nynaeve was always stronger. Strictly speaking, this has still not been done (although, as quotes have already been provided it does make it rather redundant at this point).

 

 

Once again, the goalposts go sprinting across the field to take up a new position, and the abusive tone returns.

 

Mister A, having been provided with the evidence he demands, still refuses to provide any of his own. As predictable as the sun's rising.

And, once again, I will have to ask you to back up anything you've said. Moving goalposts? Refusing to post evidence? Abusive tone? All your inventions, dear boy. I'm not sure what quotes I'm supposed to provide? If I say XXX47 doesn't back up his posts, should I repost anything he's said, and just point out the lack of supporting evidence? If I say, "do we know X is/is not the case?", should I post quotes from the book that say nothing one way or the other? By the way, randsc, as I do you the simple courtesy of reading your posts and getting your name right, I would appreciate it if you would extend that same courtesy to me. Not much to ask, I don't think. If you don't want to read my posts, fair enough, but then don't respond to them. If you wish to respond, please read beforehand.

 

 

The Oaths do allow for exaggeration - does the evidence in the books suggest that Nynaeve really is that much stronger? Or just that one quote? And you are, of course, still not providing evidence to back you up. You'd think after the amount of time I've spent banging on about you being unable to support your points with actual evidence something would have sunk in by now. Can you prove that Egwene has never been stronger than Nynaeve? If not, your argument is utterly without substance.

 

Do the quotes posted by sleephour uttered by your heroine Egwene at a time when she has already been forced and at max power satisfy you?

 

I think it is time to give it up..don't you. Egwene is no where close to Moggy and no where close to forsaken strength. Too bad.

Point proved, I think. I ask you for evidence, someone else has to provide. I notice you still seem to be stuck on me being an Egwene fan - as already stated, I'm not, I just dislike the excesses of your arguemnt, finding them without substance. Egwene debates in general tend to be tarnished by far too many rabid voices on either side, who either refuse to admit she has any faults or refuse to admit she has good points. Yes, the quotes provided by sleepinghour do satisfy. The evidence has been provided to support the claim that Nynaeve was stronger at the relevant time. Therefore it follows that Moghedien is stronger than Egwene. However, you then go on to make statements far beyond what is supported by the quotes (randsc, this is not, by the way, moving the goalposts. I know you'll claim it is in a page or so, but it does not reflect any substantive change in what I am arguing - it is the exact same point, thus the goalposts are exactly where they were). The quotes say Nynaeve is stronger. You say nowhere close to Moghedien. Given that Nynaeve and Moghedien are roughly equal, that means Moggy is likely stronger. But there is a difference between "stronger" (what the quotes say) and "nowhere near" (what XXX47 says), so I must again ask for quotes to support claims you've made, because once again you are making claims that you refuse to back up, and are frequently not supported by the text. There is even less support for the claim that Egwene is nowhere near Chosen strength. Again, you have made a claim that is not backed up. you have gone far beyond what the quotes say.

 

 

The part where Ny is stronger when she can channel...Ny has always being stronger even when she had not reached her full potential. Shortly after this Ny estimates than Moggy is equal to her in strength so that means Moggy is stronger than Egwene..undercutting the basis of Mr A's ridiculous argument that Egwene has forsaken level strength.

I would like to reiterate that I prefer people to get my damn name right. More importantly, I would like to point out that I'm not claiming that Egwene has Chosen-level strength. I'm claiming that you have no evidence she doesn't have Chosen-level strength - there's an important difference. If you really aren't sure what I'm trying to say, I am willing to try and meet you halfway and explain myself further - I appreciate that sometimes something might be lost between my brain and that of the person I'm communicating with. But your attitude is hardly conducive to good debate. Further, Egwene being weaker than Moghedien doesn't mean that Egwene doesn't have Chosen-level strength, it means she is weaker than Moggy. Weaker than one of the Chosen doesn't mean she can't be on a par with or ahead of others. Now, you said that there are quotes in the BWB saying Moggy is the weakest. I don't own the BWB, and I've not read it (only parts). However, I have been in many debates over relative strength levels, and one point has come up a lot: people claim Moghedien is the weakest Chosen, and Asmo the weakest male, but when asked ot back up these points with actual evidence... they don't. This leads me to conclude that there isn't any - but if I'm wrong, it should be easy for anyone with a BWB to provide the quote proving otherwise. I've asked many times over the course of years, I will be quite impressed if you can find something so many other people couldn't, but if the quote is there I would like to see it.

 

 

Thank you..I was wondering what they are talking about. Yes it is a ridiculous argument..Egwene does not have even the strength of the weakest Forsaken.

The best quote put forward so far in the thread (again, from sleepinghour) is this: "@BrandSanderson: @sleepinghour Mogy is among the weaker Forsaken, for certain. If you're looking at raw power." Among the weaker, not the weakest. There is a big difference. For example, if you ranked the Chosen in strength from 1-13, then the eighth strongest could be considered among the weaker Chosen (bottom half of the list) and still have five people lower down the list. So again, you are making unsubstantiated assertions. I have asked many times for people to prove Moggy is the weakest Chosen - no-one has ever done so. So to base your assertion that Egwene is weaker than the weakest Chosen on something so lacking in evidence is just you building a house of cards. Egwene is weaker than Moghedien. And Lanfear, Aginor and Ishameal. Anyone else? Probably a few of the others, but do we know she is weaker than Asmo, for example? or Semirhage? If not, how can we say she is weaker than the weakest? How can we say she doesn't have Chosen-level strength? We can't. Simple as that - we can't. Now, please, feel free to back up your points with evidence. Or just wait for sleepinghour to find it for you.

 

 

she is still weaker in the OP compared to Ny and has always been from the moment she was born.

Once again, I have to take issue with statements without substance - when Egwene was born, had Nynaeve sparked already? At the age of 8? If not, then you're claiming one zero is higher than another. And yes, this last pint is somewhat tongue in cheek.

[Himiko]

Also, its worth noting that both Egwene and Nynaeve are Accepted at this point, and I don't believe its the case that Accepted follow the same power rules as AS- in other words, I don't think that a weaker Accepted is expected to obey a more powerful Accepted. So, although Egwene is weaker than Nynaeve, and so (without the hindsight of knowing Eg becomes Amyrlin) will probably be "below" her when they are raised, and although Egwene used to be Nynaeve's pupil, at this point in time, they are considered equals- we see throughout the whole of TDR that Egwene resents Nynaeve taking charge, or acting like a teacher, I assume its simply an extension of that, rather than "Nynaeve has no power most of the time so we're equal".

 

Or am I wrong, and do Accepted follow the same patterns as AS?

 

EDIT: Comments above are related to Egwene's thoughts on "when Nynaeve could channel at all", just to clarify.

[randsc]

Mister A, you have been provided with quotes demonstrating that Egwene is not as strong as Moggie. And yet you persist in pedantry and sarcasm. There's a reason you have been banned from all the WoT boards, at one time or another.

[UncleButcher1980]

Nice trolling there.

[XXX]

Mister A...I am going to leave you to your own views...it is kind of difficult to argue with people moving the goal posts all over the field(like randsc put it). You can shoot into your own goal posts from now on.

[Kahsm]

Also, its worth noting that both Egwene and Nynaeve are Accepted at this point, and I don't believe its the case that Accepted follow the same power rules as AS- in other words, I don't think that a weaker Accepted is expected to obey a more powerful Accepted. So, although Egwene is weaker than Nynaeve, and so (without the hindsight of knowing Eg becomes Amyrlin) will probably be "below" her when they are raised, and although Egwene used to be Nynaeve's pupil, at this point in time, they are considered equals- we see throughout the whole of TDR that Egwene resents Nynaeve taking charge, or acting like a teacher, I assume its simply an extension of that, rather than "Nynaeve has no power most of the time so we're equal".

 

Or am I wrong, and do Accepted follow the same patterns as AS?

 

EDIT: Comments above are related to Egwene's thoughts on "when Nynaeve could channel at all", just to clarify.

 

I believe you are correct. Egwene is just being Egwene and is miffed that she won't be the best in something and is seeking solace in that Nyn can't always embrace. But of couse I'm a "foaming at the mouth" Egwene supporter, so I guess I didn't really just say that.

[Ala Rubra]

Alas, poor Mr Ares.

 

Now, I don't want to misconstrue your argument, but what it seems to me that you're arguing is that we have no definite proof that Moghedien is the weakest Forsaken in terms of strength and thus that Egwene, while weaker than Moghedien, might possibly be as strong as some Forsaken that might possibly be weaker than Moghedien.

 

Is this correct? If it is, then I don't see that you have "moved the goal posts" at all, rather that you and your opponents are arguing different things. If this is the case, then in my opinion I believe you are both correct.

 

That is, while there is no hard evidence that Egwene is absolutely weaker in the One Power than every single Forsaken, there is sufficient evidence that she is weaker than Moghedien. On the other hand, it can be inferred from the text and various references that Moghedien is very likely to be the weakest of the Forsaken in terms of One Power strength, which would suggest that Egwene would indeed be weaker than every other Forsaken as well. However, there is no absolute evidence proving this inference.

 

Did I miss some point of the argument?

 

Edit: Oh, right. We also have no real way to gauge the absolute difference in power between Moghdien and Egwene. The reason why not should be obvious: it is because we have no way to quantify the amount of power a channeller can hold nor the difference between two individuals, except through vague analogies such as candles, bonfires, and so forth.

[Suttree]

Oh..and the WoT guide says that Moggy was the weakest forsaken.

 

So odd, I have seen many people say this over the years but it mentions nothing of the sort. The only thing it talks about in comparing Forsaken, is Moggy being stronger than Lanfear in the world of dreams.

[Allotafagina]

As i've thought about it, Egwene wants Rand to submit because in her mind the Aes Sedai is still the ruling class in the world. They have ruled for (about) three thousand years,they've had the most knowledge regarding their own history. I guess its hard for them to now realize they are exactly like the forsaken say they are in terms of knowledge. Children.

On another sidenote i also think there are political reasons to why Egwene might want Rand to submit. First of all it would calm down the earlier ruling class that rand has infuriated by taking powers. Many people in WoT argue that Rand was never meant to have any political power at all, He was just supposed to "be there".

[Luckers]

Oh..and the WoT guide says that Moggy was the weakest forsaken.

 

So odd, I have seen many people say this over the years but it mentions nothing of the sort. The only thing it talks about in comparing Forsaken, is Moggy being stronger than Lanfear in the world of dreams.

 

 

I see this all the time also, I think its based on the fact that Moghedien has the weakest personality. We do know Graendal, Lanfear (and Cyndane) were stronger, but we don't in fact know where Moghedien stood in relation to Mesaana or Semirhage.

 

It's possible she's the weakest, but at this point its not 100%. Same goes for Asmodean, and for the same reasoning.

[MasterAblar]

Oh..and the WoT guide says that Moggy was the weakest forsaken.

 

 

So odd, I have seen many people say this over the years but it mentions nothing of the sort. The only thing it talks about in comparing Forsaken, is Moggy being stronger than Lanfear in the world of dreams.

 

 

I see this all the time also, I think its based on the fact that Moghedien has the weakest personality. We do know Graendal, Lanfear (and Cyndane) were stronger, but we don't in fact know where Moghedien stood in relation to Mesaana or Semirhage.

 

It's possible she's the weakest, but at this point its not 100%. Same goes for Asmodean, and for the same reasoning.

 

Didn't Sanderson say that Semirhage was about equal to Nyneave? Because that would definitely put her ahead of Egwene, and Moghedien for that matter.

[Luckers]

Oh..and the WoT guide says that Moggy was the weakest forsaken.

 

 

So odd, I have seen many people say this over the years but it mentions nothing of the sort. The only thing it talks about in comparing Forsaken, is Moggy being stronger than Lanfear in the world of dreams.

 

 

I see this all the time also, I think its based on the fact that Moghedien has the weakest personality. We do know Graendal, Lanfear (and Cyndane) were stronger, but we don't in fact know where Moghedien stood in relation to Mesaana or Semirhage.

 

It's possible she's the weakest, but at this point its not 100%. Same goes for Asmodean, and for the same reasoning.

 

Didn't Sanderson say that Semirhage was about equal to Nyneave? Because that would definitely put her ahead of Egwene, and Moghedien for that matter.

 

In fact, he said Nynaeve was stronger than Semirhage. And we knew Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedien now, they were at the exact same strength in tSR, and continued to gain that strength.

[MasterAblar]

Oh..and the WoT guide says that Moggy was the weakest forsaken.

 

 

So odd, I have seen many people say this over the years but it mentions nothing of the sort. The only thing it talks about in comparing Forsaken, is Moggy being stronger than Lanfear in the world of dreams.

 

 

I see this all the time also, I think its based on the fact that Moghedien has the weakest personality. We do know Graendal, Lanfear (and Cyndane) were stronger, but we don't in fact know where Moghedien stood in relation to Mesaana or Semirhage.

 

It's possible she's the weakest, but at this point its not 100%. Same goes for Asmodean, and for the same reasoning.

 

Didn't Sanderson say that Semirhage was about equal to Nyneave? Because that would definitely put her ahead of Egwene, and Moghedien for that matter.

 

In fact, he said Nynaeve was stronger than Semirhage. And we knew Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedien now, they were at the exact same strength in tSR, and continued to gain that strength.

 

Oh, I thought he said they were pretty close or something similar, but my memory might be a little fuzzy.

[Mr Ares]

Now, I don't want to misconstrue your argument, but what it seems to me that you're arguing is that we have no definite proof that Moghedien is the weakest Forsaken in terms of strength and thus that Egwene, while weaker than Moghedien, might possibly be as strong as some Forsaken that might possibly be weaker than Moghedien.

 

Is this correct?

Yes, I believe you've got it.

If it is, then I don't see that you have "moved the goal posts" at all, rather that you and your opponents are arguing different things.

The problem there is that my opponents (well, just XXX47, really) have put forward the idea that Egwene is weaker than the weakest Chosen, and therefore does not have "Forsaken level strength". So it was a notion explicitly put forward by my opponents on the other side of the debate that I was arguing against.

 

That is, while there is no hard evidence that Egwene is absolutely weaker in the One Power than every single Forsaken, there is sufficient evidence that she is weaker than Moghedien. On the other hand, it can be inferred from the text and various references that Moghedien is very likely to be the weakest of the Forsaken in terms of One Power strength, which would suggest that Egwene would indeed be weaker than every other Forsaken as well. However, there is no absolute evidence proving this inference.

 

Did I miss some point of the argument?

Yes - that I do not feel that the evidence truly implies Moghedien is the weakest in terms of OP strength. She is a coward, and others are definitely stated to be stronger than her, but I think that the argument that she is the weakest is just a jump from here, rather than a well supported next step. (She could be a coward who was immensely strong in the Power, after all.) If Moghedien is the weakest of the Chosen, then it can be said that Egwene is weaker than the weakest Chosen. Even if Moghedien is not the weakest Chosen, that might be true anyway. But the conclusion that Egwene is not at Chosen level strength is not one supported by the evidence, or even by implication to my mind, yet it is a point that has been put forward.

 

Master Ablar: "Q: How does Nynaeve compare with Semirhage in One Power strength?

A: I’m pretty sure she’s stronger, but they are very close." Looks like your memory wasn't too wide of the mark.

[XXX]

Alas, poor Mr Ares.

 

Now, I don't want to misconstrue your argument, but what it seems to me that you're arguing is that we have no definite proof that Moghedien is the weakest Forsaken in terms of strength and thus that Egwene, while weaker than Moghedien, might possibly be as strong as some Forsaken that might possibly be weaker than Moghedien.

 

Is this correct? If it is, then I don't see that you have "moved the goal posts" at all, rather that you and your opponents are arguing different things. If this is the case, then in my opinion I believe you are both correct.

 

That is, while there is no hard evidence that Egwene is absolutely weaker in the One Power than every single Forsaken, there is sufficient evidence that she is weaker than Moghedien. On the other hand, it can be inferred from the text and various references that Moghedien is very likely to be the weakest of the Forsaken in terms of One Power strength, which would suggest that Egwene would indeed be weaker than every other Forsaken as well. However, there is no absolute evidence proving this inference.

 

Did I miss some point of the argument?

 

Edit: Oh, right. We also have no real way to gauge the absolute difference in power between Moghdien and Egwene. The reason why not should be obvious: it is because we have no way to quantify the amount of power a channeller can hold nor the difference between two individuals, except through vague analogies such as candles, bonfires, and so forth.

 

Mr A was arguing that Egwene is stronger than Moggy..but now that it has been proved wrong has decided to argue that Moggy is not the strongest forsaken...in some desperate attempt to hope that Egwene has forsaken strength when RJ himself has said that Egwene/Avi and Elayne are a step behind.

 

On channeler strength: he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale. Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, i.e. as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine were found.

 

 

 

This is a classic attempt at moving goal posts all over the place..now Mr A can shoot into the goal himself.

[Cybertrolloc]

I'm sure posting 12x a day is time consuming, but perhaps you can find the time to actually read his post?

[Hybrid]

On channeler strength: he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale. Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, i.e. as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine were found.

 

First, that quote isn't nearly as definitive as you put it out to be.

 

All it states is that Egwene is a step lower than Nynaeve. Yes, Nynaeve has "Forsaken strength," but this is defined as being "as strong as most female Forsaken." We don't know if all female Forsaken are at least equal to Nynaeve in strength or if some are weaker, so we can't conclude that Egwene is weaker than all Forsaken.

 

Second, you've misinterpreted Mr Ares's position despite both Ala Rubra's and his clarifications. I direct you to their explanations; they should prove enlightening.

 

Third, this is not a case of "moving the goalposts," since Mr Ares has always held this view -- or at least he's held this view longer than you've been at DM. I know this because I had the same argument with him (regarding Moghedien as the weakest Chosen) back in 2008. So we can put all this "moving the goalposts" nonsense to rest, and focus on the actual argument at hand.

[XXX]

There are 5 female forsaken and we know Lanfear and Graendal are stronger than Ny. So if RJ says that Ny is as strong as most female Forsaken, that means she is about as strong as the remaining 3 female forsaken...Semirhage,Moggy and Messana. So she may be slightly stronger or weaker than these 3 forsaken. Difference between Ny and Egwene,Elayne and Avi is huge..(candle versus bonfire) so it bears logic that all forsaken are stronger than Egwene.

[randsc]

Egwene is on a level with Elayne. We have an Elayne POV where she states that she is used to the idea that Nynaeve and "the Foresaken" are stronger than she. Not Nynaeve and "some of the Foresaken."

[Cybertrolloc]

Elayne has met other Forsaken besides Moggy?

 

Even if the Forsaken are stronger than she at that point, it's not the piece of information needed to prove whatever stupidity this thread is about.

[XXX]

Elayne has met other Forsaken besides Moggy?

 

Even if the Forsaken are stronger than she at that point, it's not the piece of information needed to prove whatever stupidity this thread is about.

 

 

The thread is about the fact that the Dragon can squash Egwene like an insect if you compare their individual powers...but it got hijacked by Egwene lovers to compare her strength with others people, pretty par for course.

[so´jhin]

Ares, can you provide evidence that Elsa Grinwell doesnt have Forsaken level? Joline, Siuan Sanche, etc.

[Entreri]

Mr Ares,

 

Obviously you are either lacking in logic ro do selective reading. So here it goes again..as simple as I can make it

 

Egwene has never NEVER being equal in strength to Ny..even when Egwene was forced and Ny was not at full strength. The difference between their strengths is huge..Moriane describes it as a candle to a raging bonfire.

 

Ny estimated Moggy's strength as equal to her own when she held the adam..and Egwene was weaker than Ny at that point and being forced was at the strongest she will ever be. Hence Moggy is stronger than Egwene and always has been and always will be.

 

All true.

But Egwene could likely weave circles around Nynaeve, since Eggs can split possibly twice as much. Not relevant to strength, I know. But I gotta have my girl's back ;)

 

Egwene could have greater fighting prowess than Nyaneve, however, Nyaneve would easily overwhelm her outside of TAR.

 

Nynaeve is much stronger than Egwene, with only Lanfear, Cyndane and Grandael being stronger amongst the Forsaken and Alivia among the none Forsaken (Sharina has barely started to channel).

 

Thus Nynaeve can shield Egwene and easily defeat her (outside of TAR or balefire).

 

Alivia being "considerably/much stronger": Nynaeve said and she would overwhelm her whatever she tried against Alivia. Of course this was probably before she realized Alivia had little or no defensive capablities with saidar.

 

 

100 Weaves for AS testing:

Moraine (New Spring) said they were "extermely complex".

Egwene (Towers of Midnight) said there were "very complex" and she has not learned them all.

Nyaneve (Towers of Midnight) thought nothing of them and has already learned them. Anything Nyaneve sees once, she remembers. She was not impressed in the least at the Weave Egwene created in TAR against eavesdropping (Elayne was amazed at the complexity of it)

 

This hints at their realtive skills at Weaving the OP: Nynaeve >> Egwene > Moraine. Elyane is possibly greater than Moraine.

 

Nynaeve defeated one-on-one, without any aid Moghidien when she was an Accepted, which is an accomplishment almost nobody could match or beat aside from the DR (e.g. Ishamael at the EoTW).