Should Elayne blame Egwene?

[Kahsm]

If Illian and Tear are to bring their whole armies to FoM, then Andor has to as well. That's just the way those negotiations are going to go, so you might as well default to that. Everyone does it, or no one does it.

 

It's like trying to start cap and trade or apply carbon taxes.

 

And it's not Egwene's fault, for as someone else said, Elayne is a sovereign Queen responsible for her own realm. There's nothing to say Egwene won't be sympathetic and do what she can to help Elyane do whatever Elayne feels needs to be done.

 

Of course there's nothing to say Rand won't get pissed someone's burning his Wife baby-mama's house to the ground and run off and WTFPwn them (Though i'm fairly sure he's off to save Lanfear early in AMoL).

 

Also it's pretty close to the black tower, so we may find the problem is already solved before Elayne has a chance to do much. (Taim's redemption!)

 

But despite what [Removed] XXX47 says, this has nothing to do with Aes Sedai. They are not guardians of the whole world or there would be no monarchs at all. As a matter of fact, Elayne would have to petition the Amyrlin for help, and she might.

Edited July 6, 2011 by yoniy0
Better late than never.

[XXX]

AS are not guardians of the world...well someone has to make sure Egwene and the rest of the fools at the WT get that memo!!

Edited July 4, 2011 by XXX47

[randsc]

No, Elayne has no one but herself to blame. She has advance notice of an invasion of Shadowspawn, knows for certain that the Seanchan are coming and can strike anywhere, and her only response is to "beef up" her border defenses, with what can at most be a few tens of thousands of troops, spread around the border of the largest kingdom in Randland. To leave her country, taking with her so much as a single soldier, is almost criminally negligent.

 

And I say this as not exactly the biggest Egwene fan out there. Not Egwene's fault, Elayne's.

[Muad Cheade]

The Tower does not have nearly enough soldiers to help with the Borderlands. At the Field of Merrilor, Egwene can both try to change Rand's mind as well as organize the defense.

The Tower constantly boast about it's power and how it can make monarchs jump when they say frog, yet you are trying to tell me that they aren't able to organize sending armies or at least sisters to the borderlands to aid the defends? No, it seems rather obvious she intends to use the armies to "force" Rand in the case he wont dance on her leash, she even thinks about replacing Darlin because he wont move his entire army there in fear of the Seanchan.

 

Now, my question is, how on earth does she hope to achieve that goal? intimidating Rand and/or "force" him with armies that are for all practical purpose sworn to him?

The White Tower has less than 100,000 soldiers. It is impossible for them to defend the entire Blightborder when the separate invasion forces of the Shadow have more than their combined army.

 

When did Egwene think about replacing Darlin? If I recall correctly, she merely wanted him to bring the majority of his forces. I might be wrong though

 

Rand did not destroy the Waygate nor did he use the weave he did on the Waygate at Shadar Logoth. As simple as that. Of course she would. She can't be seen as accepting the throne from Rand as that would do away with her legitimacy but that's another argument.

 

I'm not saying she should've accepted his help, I agree with her decision there, I'm just merely pointing out that he had put guards at them, and I doubt they were ever replaced after she came into power. Rand can hardly be at fault there really, last he was in control of the city the Waygate was as safe as he could make it. Putting on the ward would really serve no purpose in Caemlyn, as it would still give the Trollocs plenty of time to slaughter the citizens, and he didn't have any means to destroy the Waygate until long after Elayne took control of the city. So guards was by far the best solution, she just didn't replace those.

But what we can understand, she had no idea about the Waygate. Rand did have several means of destroying the Waygate as well as using the weave that kills all Shadowspawn that pass through it. Elayne attempting to win her throne separate of Rand has nothing to do with it.

 

No, Elayne has no one but herself to blame. She has advance notice of an invasion of Shadowspawn, knows for certain that the Seanchan are coming and can strike anywhere, and her only response is to "beef up" her border defenses, with what can at most be a few tens of thousands of troops, spread around the border of the largest kingdom in Randland. To leave her country, taking with her so much as a single soldier, is almost criminally negligent.

 

And I say this as not exactly the biggest Egwene fan out there. Not Egwene's fault, Elayne's.

How is it her fault? She does not know the Seanchan know Traveling nor does she know about the Waygate. She was informed there would be an invasion so she did what was needed. When one hears hoofbeats, one thinks of horses not zebras just like Elayne focused on securing her borders. According to your logic every single ruler at the FoM is criminally negligent. The Borderlanders most of all it seems. Doesn't make sense to me.

[Durinax]

on one hand I could see how egwene could be to blame, since as AS elayne must do as the amyrlin says, on the other hand though she is a free monarch (as far as she can be and still be AS)

 

and I dont doubt for a second that egwene formed the 'request' more like a demand for elayne. As for how many troops she took to FoM, we dont know how many andoran troops she took, she may have only took enough to be an honour guard with the bulk of the forces that are with her being cairheinan, we just dont know so we can say whether she made a mistake or not

[XXX]

There seems to be a major conflict of interest here...the Queen of Andor is under the Amyrlin. What if the interests of the Wt and Andor do not coincide?

It is a pity that Elayne has remained with the WT after seeing the experience of Manetheren where the WT backstabbed the AS queen.

[Kahsm]

Egwene didn't demand anything of Elyane. It's Elyane's fault because she's Queen. And she fought hard to be Queen. Well, you get blamed for stuff like removing your armies and letting your capital burn when you're Queen.

 

And I love how Egwene is clearly the same as some 2000 years dead Amyrlin. Just as every Aes Sedai is exactly the same, oh except for all the ones that disprove everything XXX47 believes.

 

Yes being Queen and Aes Sedai may prove challenging at times. But Aes Sedai from the AoL were barely organized as they are today, they all had their own jobs and were summoned for particular tasks now and then. Maybe things will shift more in that direction under Egwene. Fortunately, that's irrelevant in this particular case since there was no command, and we don't know what Egwene will or won't do to help.

[XXX]

I doubt Egwene can do anything to help Andor because the WT is going to come under a massive Seachan attack. Personally I think it is just rewards for her trying to oppose the Dragon.

 

Tar Valon was created at the beginning of the 3rd age..so it makes sense it is destroyed at the end of the current age. That is probably what is going to happen. The wheel continues to turn.

[Mr Ares]

I'm not saying she should've accepted his help, I agree with her decision there, I'm just merely pointing out that he had put guards at them, and I doubt they were ever replaced after she came into power. Rand can hardly be at fault there really, last he was in control of the city the Waygate was as safe as he could make it. Putting on the ward would really serve no purpose in Caemlyn, as it would still give the Trollocs plenty of time to slaughter the citizens, and he didn't have any means to destroy the Waygate until long after Elayne took control of the city. So guards was by far the best solution, she just didn't replace those.

Where is the evidence that Elayne left the Waygate unguarded? Verin's letter says that it is guarded and thought secure (although granted Verin wasn't necessarily up to date on these things) and that this was insufficient - nothing short of outright destruction would be, according ot the letter.

 

 

Why do you need armies to reason?

Well, sometimes peoplle refuse to listen to reason, so instead you show them a big army and hope that calms them down enough to consider what you have to say. Fortunately, the Dragon Reborn is in no way an idiot who might possibly listen to reason... Oh, crap.

 

Anyway, as to the question of should Elayne blame Egwene, no. Who is to blame? The Shadow. Could Elayne have prevented Camelyn getting attaacked? No. If she had forces in the city, could they have responded faster? Perhaps, too many unknowns. If she had troops near the city - well, we know she does. So she has soldiers nearby who are able to respond. Her location is known, so there is the possibility of getting a message to her (We're being attacked. Please assist, if not too busy.) if there is a channeler in Caemlyn. From there, she can gather her forces and respond in force and quickly - in fact, given they would be attcking through Gateways, where she is matters precious little. Had they attacked the border, attacked while she was in Cairhien, etc., etc., she is still capable of bringing her army to bear from where she is to the enemy in a short space of time. Yes, people in Caemlyn will die. She can't help that. She could not have stopped that happening. So, no mistake on her part, none on Egwene's. The Shadow are the only ones to blame for the attack on Caemlyn. Well, unless you want to blame Mat as well.

[XXX]

Kinda stupid trying to bring armies to intimidate the Dragon when a large portion of the armies you are bringing are sworn to the Dragon himself?..It really makes no sense.

[Manscher]

Where is the evidence that Elayne left the Waygate unguarded? Verin's letter says that it is guarded and thought secure (although granted Verin wasn't necessarily up to date on these things) and that this was insufficient - nothing short of outright destruction would be, according ot the letter.

 

No evidence, I didn't claim it was left unguarded, I just said I doubt she would've paid attention to the Waygate being guarded when she took over. Especially considering she never thought of it during the talk about the invasion.

[XXX]

The waygate were guarded by Rand..Elayne never even thought about it atleast going by what written in the books.

[randsc]

How is it her fault? She does not know the Seanchan know Traveling nor does she know about the Waygate. She was informed there would be an invasion so she did what was needed. When one hears hoofbeats, one thinks of horses not zebras just like Elayne focused on securing her borders. According to your logic every single ruler at the FoM is criminally negligent. The Borderlanders most of all it seems. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

1. She knows that Traveling is a possibility, and therefore a danger;

2. She SHOULD know that the Seanchan have taken women who know the traveling weave prisoner. If she doesn't, THAT is Egwene's fault;

3. She knows about Raken and To'Raken;

4. We don't actually know if she knows about the Waygate or not. She might very well.

5. Her borders are with countries not overrun by the Seanchan of the Shadow, which ought to strongly suggest that she show a little more imagination;

6. She has said herself that Caemlyn IS Andor. Border raids are not the danger;

7. All of these points notwithstanding, going might be a risk she had to take, IF there were a compelling reason to do so. There is not.

8. "Wah, wah, others do it too!" is not a defense. Yes, many other leaders have been negligent. Not the Borderlanders; they knew the cost but had that compelling reason that Elayne does not. But Tear and Illian, certainly.

Edited July 4, 2011 by randsc

[XXX]

Tear and Illian did not even want to come..not sure if they came with full force, if they did and their countries got attacked thin Egwene is plainly at fault there too.

[randsc]

Tear and Illian did not even want to come..not sure if they came with full force, if they did and their countries got attacked thin Egwene is plainly at fault there too.

 

Much as I despise Egwene, I cannot agree. Neither country should be sending troops to the FoM because Egwene wants to play soldier. That's the rulers' fault, not Egwene's.

[Manscher]

Egwene tries to comfort Illian and Tear saying they will get gates back to their cities if there are any signs of an invasion. At the same time though she thinks to herself that the Seanchan most likely knows traveling by now and in that case a gateway back home wont help them.

 

So in that case, yes Egwene is in fact at fault, she manipulates the nations to come giving them a false sense of security. Just for the sake of "intimidating" Rand, her childhood friend..

[Kahsm]

Egwene tries to comfort Illian and Tear saying they will get gates back to their cities if there are any signs of an invasion. At the same time though she thinks to herself that the Seanchan most likely knows traveling by now and in that case a gateway back home wont help them.

 

So in that case, yes Egwene is in fact at fault, she manipulates the nations to come giving them a false sense of security. Just for the sake of "intimidating" Rand, her childhood friend..

 

And obviously everyone trusts Aes Sedai 100% and that's why they came...

[Manscher]

When an Aes Sedai says something straight out, yes then people are reluctant to trust them. She choose to withhold the information for them, knowing that their nations might very well be underneath the Seanchan rule before anybody gets a chance to react. Yet she still insist on her idiotic idea that they should bring their entire armies.

[sleepinghour]

Egwene tries to comfort Illian and Tear saying they will get gates back to their cities if there are any signs of an invasion. At the same time though she thinks to herself that the Seanchan most likely knows traveling by now and in that case a gateway back home wont help them.

The other problem with this is that it'll take a lot (maybe even hundreds) of Aes Sedai to supply gateways for entire armies if more than one country is attacked. Caemlyn's already under attack, Tar Valon probably will be... What will Egwene do if Illian or Tear is attacked and starts asking for those gateways she promised?

 

Keep in mind that only the stronger Aes Sedai can make gateways on their own, so in most cases, it'll require two linked Aes Sedai to make just one gateway. And the Aes Sedai making the gateways will tire themselves out doing that instead of saving their strength for the actual fighting.

[Gordar]

If the Amyrlin seat tells someone to come, you come. It's been clearly stated multiple times. Even the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light would go if ordered by the Amyrlin seat.

 

If I know that someone will do whatever I say, whether that person likes it or not and I tell that person to jump off a building, which kills the person. Who's at fault? I think I'd have a pretty hard time explaining myself in court. I was aware of the power I had over the other person and I still ordered that person to do something that was potentially lethal.

 

Egwene might not have the power some of the previous amyrlins might have had, but old habits are hard to break.

[Durinax]

actually I just realized, Egwene may have the largest standing army at home. She may have left the tower guard at tar valon, or bryne behind and barely anyone would know better. I think that may be important soon. what will the leaders think when (if) the WT is attacked and they find out egwene left a large amount of troops at home in case of attack when she persuades the others to ignore dangers and bring their full armies?

[Kahsm]

If the Amyrlin seat tells someone to come, you come. It's been clearly stated multiple times. Even the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light would go if ordered by the Amyrlin seat.

 

If I know that someone will do whatever I say, whether that person likes it or not and I tell that person to jump off a building, which kills the person. Who's at fault? I think I'd have a pretty hard time explaining myself in court. I was aware of the power I had over the other person and I still ordered that person to do something that was potentially lethal.

 

Egwene might not have the power some of the previous amyrlins might have had, but old habits are hard to break.

 

They don't, necessarily, empty their lands of every man who can hold a sword though. Moving your army at the Amyrlin's beck and call is a totally different thing than answering a summons.

[David Selig]

If the Amyrlin seat tells someone to come, you come. It's been clearly stated multiple times. Even the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light would go if ordered by the Amyrlin seat.

That applies to the monarchs personally (and it's probably an exaggeration), but not to their national armies. No Amyrlin has had the authority to straight out order the summoning of the Randland armies at her command for millennia.

 

As much as I hate to defend Egwene, I would say Rand is much more to blame if Tear or Illian get attacked with their armies away. Those are his realms after all, and he planned for their armies to come to Merrilor. I suspect he may've even given Darlin and Gregorin permission for that - it's strange that both of them would be willing to openly defy him. Even if he didn't, he still could've easily stopped them from coming if he had taken action in this direction instead of letting Egwene proceed with her plan since it suited his intentions.

[Guest PiotrekS]

It was Elayne's decision whether to move the army or not. Responsibility for the realm is hers and the Amyrlin's order is no excuse. Even if Egwene had the authority to order Elayne to get the army to FoM(although the Amyrlin didn't have the authority to order the Queen of Andor anything, she was the superior of Elayne Aes Sedai), the order still could be ignored, even if the price for Elayne would be some Aes Sedai sanctions. The security of her realm is her first responsibility.

Edited July 4, 2011 by PiotrekS

[Mr Ares]

Kinda stupid trying to bring armies to intimidate the Dragon when a large portion of the armies you are bringing are sworn to the Dragon himself?..It really makes no sense.

So what message do you think is given out by having Rand's own armies there to oppose him? When even your allies and bannermen consider your plans foolish and reckless? Who would still proceed under those circumstances?

 

 

1. She knows that Traveling is a possibility, and therefore a danger;

2. She SHOULD know that the Seanchan have taken women who know the traveling weave prisoner. If she doesn't, THAT is Egwene's fault;

3. She knows about Raken and To'Raken;

4. We don't actually know if she knows about the Waygate or not. She might very well.

5. Her borders are with countries not overrun by the Seanchan of the Shadow, which ought to strongly suggest that she show a little more imagination;

6. She has said herself that Caemlyn IS Andor. Border raids are not the danger;

7. All of these points notwithstanding, going might be a risk she had to take, IF there were a compelling reason to do so. There is not.

8. "Wah, wah, others do it too!" is not a defense. Yes, many other leaders have been negligent. Not the Borderlanders; they knew the cost but had that compelling reason that Elayne does not. But Tear and Illian, certainly.

Traveling might be a danger, but how can she guard against it? The Seanchan could potentially attack any part of her country and she can't spread her troops out everywhere - they'd be too thin on the ground to do any good. Gateways allow her to respond rapidly, but she can use them from Merrilor as easily as Caemlyn. She knows about Raken and To'raken, but so what? We have no reason to believe the Waygate is unguarded. Her northern border is with the Caralain Grass, a big, empty region. If the Borderlands fell, the Shadow would have a clear run to Andor. Caemlyn is not Andor - her storyline shows the lie in that old saying. And also, if someone attacks, you generally want to stop them before they get to the important places, like your capital city. There is no benefit to her staying put in Caemlyn. She would be able to do her normal, day to day duties, but would be absent from a summit to decide a course of action at TG. The latter is decidedly more important.