What are the Forsaken fighting for?

[HeronMarkedSoul]

After reading some of these incredibly deep theories in different threads one has to wonder what the Forsaken et al are fighting for. If everything becomes nothingness when the DO 'wins' and no one is reborn, then who will they be ruling over? What good would it be to be Nae'blis? That's great that they will have absolute power, but over whom?

 

If existence doesn't wink right out then they will rule over anyone left alive after the the dark's minions scourge the world, and then no one will be reborn. Doesn't seem like much to shoot for if you ask me. Seems like it would be much more fun (for lack of a better word) for them having a world full of people they can dominate, with occasional intrigues and battles over the years when ta'veren are born. Not sure what their motivation is to fight for the DO...

[Southpaw89]

they're fighting for what they think the DO will give them which is power and authority. Moridin really is, it seems, the only one who knows/thinks the DO's real goal is to wipe out the pattern. The others think he'll take over the world for himself and give them power

[capuga]

After reading some of these incredibly deep theories in different threads one has to wonder what the Forsaken et al are fighting for. If everything becomes nothingness when the DO 'wins' and no one is reborn, then who will they be ruling over? What good would it be to be Nae'blis? That's great that they will have absolute power, but over whom?

 

If existence doesn't wink right out then they will rule over anyone left alive after the the dark's minions scourge the world, and then no one will be reborn. Doesn't seem like much to shoot for if you ask me. Seems like it would be much more fun (for lack of a better word) for them having a world full of people they can dominate, with occasional intrigues and battles over the years when ta'veren are born. Not sure what their motivation is to fight for the DO...

 

Only Moridin believes that the Dark One intends to destroy the Pattern and all of existence. We, the readers, assume he is correct because he is both a philosopher and the Dark One's closest minion. Moridin also wants to end existence which is why he fights for the Dark One. The rest of the Forsaken do not know/believe this. They think the Dark One will win and remake the world in his image and that they will rule over this new world. I would imagine that if they knew/believed what Moridin does, they would not be interested in destroying everything and would fight against the Dark One (not because it's the right thing to do but to preserve their selfish interests). As you say, what is the good in winning/ruling when there is no world to rule.

[ShenAnCalhar]

Which always kind of begged the question for me - why does the Dark One want to destroy the pattern, rather than reshape it in his own image? He's clearly a sentient being and has interests in the world at large. Don't you think he'd get kind of bored floating around in a void of nothingness? Maybe Elan Morin Tedronai is actually wrong, but it seems doubtful since he seems to know his stuff in that regard.

[Apple13]

After reading some of these incredibly deep theories in different threads one has to wonder what the Forsaken et al are fighting for. If everything becomes nothingness when the DO 'wins' and no one is reborn, then who will they be ruling over? What good would it be to be Nae'blis? That's great that they will have absolute power, but over whom?

 

If existence doesn't wink right out then they will rule over anyone left alive after the the dark's minions scourge the world, and then no one will be reborn. Doesn't seem like much to shoot for if you ask me. Seems like it would be much more fun (for lack of a better word) for them having a world full of people they can dominate, with occasional intrigues and battles over the years when ta'veren are born. Not sure what their motivation is to fight for the DO...

 

The Dark One's intentions are different from that of most of the Forsaken and Darkfriends, though they don't know it. The Forsaken believe they'll be rewarded with land to lord over if they win the Last Battle, which is why they are fighting. Only Moridin knows that the Dark One actually means to destroy the Pattern, not remake the world as his own.

[W_A]

Which always kind of begged the question for me - why does the Dark One want to destroy the pattern, rather than reshape it in his own image? He's clearly a sentient being and has interests in the world at large. Don't you think he'd get kind of bored floating around in a void of nothingness? Maybe Elan Morin Tedronai is actually wrong, but it seems doubtful since he seems to know his stuff in that regard.

I believe that the Cycles of the Wheel are just a small part of an even larger thing. Whenever the DO does break free, he makes his own pattern and imprisons the Creator, and he hopes that his new pattern will be able to permanently seal the Creator. Then if the Creator breaks free of there, he makes a different pattern from the one we know, and tries to permanently seal the DO. So there is an even larger cycle, with two parts, that is made up of thousands of different Ages until one breaks free, and they are both struggling to perfect their prison so they can permanently seal away the other one and win forever.

[MHardeman25]

I believe that the Cycles of the Wheel are just a small part of an even larger thing. Whenever the DO does break free, he makes his own pattern and imprisons the Creator, and he hopes that his new pattern will be able to permanently seal the Creator. Then if the Creator breaks free of there, he makes a different pattern from the one we know, and tries to permanently seal the DO. So there is an even larger cycle, with two parts, that is made up of thousands of different Ages until one breaks free, and they are both struggling to perfect their prison so they can permanently seal away the other one and win forever.

 

When you put it that way, you could create and endless loop of creation/destruction. The current conflict as a subset of Creator vs Dark One which is a subset of Victory by Creator vs Victory by Dark One in which I assume after they win they try to create a new pattern in their image and probably end up creating their polar opposite in the process. Fits with the balance motif (yin/yang ancient aes sedai symbol, light vs dark, etc...). You can continue making the last a subset of some larger wheel until the day you die and you'd not get any better at understanding anything. This view of the universe is just a bit depressing to me though...

[Bluedust9]

Themselves.

[Awakened]

Which always kind of begged the question for me - why does the Dark One want to destroy the pattern, rather than reshape it in his own image? He's clearly a sentient being and has interests in the world at large. Don't you think he'd get kind of bored floating around in a void of nothingness? Maybe Elan Morin Tedronai is actually wrong, but it seems doubtful since he seems to know his stuff in that regard.

 

Well, that is a good question. We have to assume that his natural environment doesn't include time and space, so he is basically like a fish out of water. Also, he probably has a grudge to settle with the Creator and he can't pursue that grudge so long as he is shackled by the Pattern's existence.

[True Source Creator]

Themselves.

Christopher Waltz: "That's a BINGO!"

 

 

Seriously, they seem like rejects, judging by their pasts before joining the Shadow.

[WhiskyJack]

Bailouts, more spending, more regulations, ability to print their own money..stuff like that.

[OptimusPrime]

Which always kind of begged the question for me - why does the Dark One want to destroy the pattern, rather than reshape it in his own image? He's clearly a sentient being and has interests in the world at large. Don't you think he'd get kind of bored floating around in a void of nothingness? Maybe Elan Morin Tedronai is actually wrong, but it seems doubtful since he seems to know his stuff in that regard.

 

My personal belief is that the world is the Pattern IS the Prison. The Creator and the Dark One are sentient non-physical forces, and one time when they were floating about in the void of nothingness, the Dark One wouldnt stop pestering the Creator. So the Creator bound the Dark One with an epic shield, the Wheel of Time, a construct that bound Shai'tan to a physical world where time itself unfolds in a manner that resists his efforts. If the Pattern was a hollow sphere, the Dark One would be inside it. If he wants to get out, he has to go through the Prison... which is the world which is the Pattern. He has to destroy it to be free, but in my opinion there arent many ways to do it. Balefire would help, and no doubt True Power usage, but the best bet is to get the Dragon to destroy it one way or another.

 

How to create suspense for the last book? Get Moridin to use the True Power on Rand and Compel him to destroy the Pattern!!!!!

[sandoz12]

I always assumed like others said that the Forsaken (apart from Moridin) think that they will great rewards after the Dark One triumphs. Moridin and the Dark One (I believe) see life as an endless wheel of suffering (dharma) and only through destroying the wheel can they free all sentient beings of suffering (nirvana).

 

This whole time I think the Dark One has gotten an undeservedly bad reputation.

[Kahsm]

Bailouts, more spending, more regulations, ability to print their own money..stuff like that.

Rofl +++

[Entreri]

Immortality is a good sell, plus ruling the world.

 

Aside from Ishamael, the rest of the Chosen are mere tools.

[Awakened]

Immortality is a good sell, plus ruling the world.

 

Aside from Ishamael, the rest of the Chosen are mere tools.

 

I wonder if the Dark One will keep Ishmael around as a sidekick when this is all over and he has won.

[Goldstar]

I tend to see DO's/Mori's relationship akin to Vader/Siddeous... Just me?

[Awakened]

I tend to see DO's/Mori's relationship akin to Vader/Siddeous... Just me?

 

Vader was tricked and manipulated. He was also an emo which made it easy for Siddeous to punch his buttons and play with his emotions. Thinking wasn't Anakin's strong point. Ishmael, on the other hand, was a calm intellectual who followed his own logic to its natural conclusion. Why should humanity torture itself fighting against a darkness against which it couldn't win? Nothing it did mattered since the Dark One would win anyways given an infinite amount of time, and this fact made every sacrifice humanity made in trying to stave off the inevitable that much more tragic and heart wrenching. Ishmael is an Angel of Mercy, come to take the pain of the world away. Your welcome.

[Vambram]

I tend to see DO's/Mori's relationship akin to Vader/Siddeous... Just me?

 

Vader was tricked and manipulated. He was also an emo which made it easy for Siddeous to punch his buttons and play with his emotions. Thinking wasn't Anakin's strong point. Ishmael, on the other hand, was a calm intellectual who followed his own logic to its natural conclusion. Why should humanity torture itself fighting against a darkness against which it couldn't win? Nothing it did mattered since the Dark One would win anyways given an infinite amount of time, and this fact made every sacrifice humanity made in trying to stave off the inevitable that much more tragic and heart wrenching. Ishmael is an Angel of Mercy, come to take the pain of the world away. Your welcome.

 

According to Robert Jordan, Ishamael is a Lying Liar who Lies.

 

I would not be so fast as to believe Ishamael if I were you, Awakened.

[Suttree]

I tend to see DO's/Mori's relationship akin to Vader/Siddeous... Just me?

 

Vader was tricked and manipulated. He was also an emo which made it easy for Siddeous to punch his buttons and play with his emotions. Thinking wasn't Anakin's strong point. Ishmael, on the other hand, was a calm intellectual who followed his own logic to its natural conclusion. Why should humanity torture itself fighting against a darkness against which it couldn't win? Nothing it did mattered since the Dark One would win anyways given an infinite amount of time, and this fact made every sacrifice humanity made in trying to stave off the inevitable that much more tragic and heart wrenching. Ishmael is an Angel of Mercy, come to take the pain of the world away. Your welcome.

 

According to Robert Jordan, Ishamael is a Lying Liar who Lies.

 

I would not be so fast as to believe Ishamael if I were you, Awakened.

 

Ahh but he also said...

 

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

 

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

 

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

[Vambram]

However, has the Hero of the Light ever been The Dragon or the Dragon Reborn in any of the turnings of the Wheel of the Ages when that Hero turned and served The Shadow?

 

 

I believe the answer to that question is a rock solid: NO.

[Suttree]

However, has the Hero of the Light ever been The Dragon or the Dragon Reborn in any of the turnings of the Wheel of the Ages when that Hero turned and served The Shadow?

 

 

I believe the answer to that question is a rock solid: NO.

 

You know I used to think that as well but recently I have seen some compelling arguments and a quote from BS that has me thinking the CoL could have been the Dragon Soul in every turning. At the very least it isn't a rock solid no.

 

Twitter

 

@BrandSanderson Can you settle a debate? Will Rand's soul be the Light's champion in every Age, or could it ever be someone else?

 

BrandSanderson Mon Apr 25

@Andrew_J_Parker I believe that Ishy implies in the books he and Lews Therin have fought thousands of times.

 

BrandSanderson Mon Apr 25

@Andrew_J_Parker So at least one major character seems to believe it's always Rand. Whether he's right or not is another question.

[Vambram]

Ishamael believing this does not mean anything to me, because I consider the source and say to myself, ... "Can I believe anything that a Lying Liar who Lies says?"

[sandoz12]

Ishamael believing this does not mean anything to me, because I consider the source and say to myself, ... "Can I believe anything that a Lying Liar who Lies says?"

Even a regular liar will tell the truth sometime otherwise their lies become in a sense truthful. Mixing lies with truth is far more effective.

[Atan Lodorn]

The Dark One has had Thousands of opportunities to break free he hasn't so far because this is how the creator wanted it to happen. Men work hard build technology get self serving think they can match the Creator (ie search for new power sources) BAM Dark One is accessed to bring a restoration to the world, for virtue and vice to appear. To me he has no intentions of escaping and knows with his role within the pattern.

 

His energies turn the wheel, he seems to have a more direct involvement when he his able to touch the world. Moridin thinks that the DO wants to end it all, why would he? End the strife, murdering, manipulation, terror he can create for what nothing, personally can't see the benefit for him to do that.

 

I do admit there is a CREATOR and if he truly is the opposite would be the DESTROYER, but I think he is slightly less powerful than the creator that is why he cannot break from his prison.