Least Favorite Character

[MasterAblar]

I didn't see Cadsuane's actions centering on politeness as an effort to teach him just manners; but rather an attempt to get him to change his frame of mind. He was an Emperor who would not take no for an answer. The fate of the world is on his shoulders. And he needed to know why he was fighting (Tam's question). Rand didn't know why and how he should fight his battle; and needed guidance at a time when he thought that any form of guidance or advice was putting strings on him to manipulate him. He was so blind and his mind so clouded (by insanity among other things) that he really needed to learn the mannerisms of leadership.

 

It took Moiraine's tutoring, Cadsuane's prodding, Tam's guidance, and divine intervention to get Rand in the right frame of mind to win TG for the Light.

 

Yeah, to be sure it was never just about his manners, I just thought that in this instance the contrast between the severity of what they were discussing and her demands for politeness, was rather amusing.

 

Well, I don't understand what was she (and the rest for that mater) even doing there in the first place. That was decisively BT business and discussing it before prominent member(s) of second-most hostile organization (first being the Shadow) certainly wouldn't convince Logain that Rand has best interests of Asha'man at heart or, given the topic of conversation, that he gives a damn at all. Further, the way she decided to participate in conversation was unhelpful, confrontational and undermining towards Rand.

 

I think Logain's biggest problem with Rand was always that he felt Rand didn't care at all about the BT and the Ashaman. He just created it and then never bothered worrying about it again. As for Cadsuane's presence, that's actually Logain's own fault as he was the one who decided to bring up the subject in front of her. And to be fair Cadsuane didn't really share her thoughts about the situation (I rather wish that she had in fact as her voice might have convinced Rand that he had to intervene at the BT), she just told them to do so nicely. In general though, I agree that Aes Sedai should keep out of Ashaman business (Merise anyone?).

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

In general though, I agree that Aes Sedai should keep out of Ashaman business (Merise anyone?).

I think I missed it. What is the problem with Merise? Is it just that she doesn't treat Narishma well?

Btw I think she has to die for Narishma to properly "follow after" Rand

[driedraspberry]

In general though, I agree that Aes Sedai should keep out of Ashaman business (Merise anyone?).

I think I missed it. What is the problem with Merise? Is it just that she doesn't treat Narishma well?

Btw I think she has to die for Narishma to properly "follow after" Rand

 

Not well? She doesn't treat him like a human. Well, maybe a human slave... If that wasn't enough, her unnecessarily rudeness, or bitching about Rand are hardly endearing.

 

If she does die Narish will go full out warder deathrage. It could be epic.

[fuzz1717]

In general though, I agree that Aes Sedai should keep out of Ashaman business (Merise anyone?).

I think I missed it. What is the problem with Merise? Is it just that she doesn't treat Narishma well?

Btw I think she has to die for Narishma to properly "follow after" Rand

 

To be honest, Merise really doesn't treat Narishma THAT badly. I mean, if you think about it, Aes Sedai and men who can channel have been at odds for thousands of years, and it must take some getting used to having a man who can channel follow you around. Also, AS always have had this weird master/servant thing going on with their warders, and now that Narishma is (probably) stronger than Merise, she is uncomfortable because the master/servant balance has become more of that of equals.

 

That being said, i really hope she dies. IMO the only "balanced" Aes Sedai / Ashaman relationship is Flinn and Corele, they seem to respect each other and maybe have a slight fondness. All of the other ones were mad sketchy

[b3arz3rg3r]

In general though, I agree that Aes Sedai should keep out of Ashaman business (Merise anyone?).

I think I missed it. What is the problem with Merise? Is it just that she doesn't treat Narishma well?

Btw I think she has to die for Narishma to properly "follow after" Rand

 

Not well? She doesn't treat him like a human. Well, maybe a human slave... If that wasn't enough, her unnecessarily rudeness, or bitching about Rand are hardly endearing.

 

If she does die Narish will go full out warder deathrage. It could be epic.

 

Don't be so hard on Merise. In the beginning she did treat Narishma like someone she could control, but the rules on the relationship between Aes Sedai and Asha'man who are bonded to each other yet have to be written. Narishma is a young man and she is an Aes Sedai with decades of experience. It stands to reason that she takes a more dominant role in the beginning, but we have seen evidence already that the power balance is shifting. Jahar may yet end up as the dominant one for all we know.

 

I don't think Jahar or any Asha'man would fall victim to the warder deathrage as you put it. I think it's because they can access the OP themselves. Unlike regular Warders Asha'man can't be compelled through the bond. Regular Warders are dependant on their Aes Sedai in a way Asha'man aren't. I think saidin would fill the void which causes regular Warders to seek death once their Aes Sedai is dead or stilled. Instead they would be hit just as hard as the Aes Sedai are when their Warders die.

 

If an Asha'man is however the one who initiated the bond the Aes Sedai may be just as vulnerable as regular warders are. The male channellers can compell the female channellers through the bond just like Aes Sedai can regular warders so that may be one of those saidin/saidar differences. Just like a man always has to take the lead in a circle of two, his bond may be stronger than the bond of a woman. So instead of Jahar's deathrage you may see Toveine's deathrage though I doubt that would be in any way epic.

[MasterAblar]

I think I missed it. What is the problem with Merise? Is it just that she doesn't treat Narishma well?

Btw I think she has to die for Narishma to properly "follow after" Rand

 

Rand raised Narishma to Ashaman rank, and Merise took away his pin, essentially saying that he isn't Ashaman (the rank that is) unless she says he is. And he was very pissed about it if what she felt through the bond is anything to go by.

 

To be honest, Merise really doesn't treat Narishma THAT badly. I mean, if you think about it, Aes Sedai and men who can channel have been at odds for thousands of years, and it must take some getting used to having a man who can channel follow you around. Also, AS always have had this weird master/servant thing going on with their warders, and now that Narishma is (probably) stronger than Merise, she is uncomfortable because the master/servant balance has become more of that of equals.

 

That interact very oddly at times, but overall the way she treat him, especially at first, is extremely irritating. Eben says it best when he thinks Merise tries to make Narishma balance a ball on his nose. All the mentions of Merise having a firm hand, sending Narishma to the corner like a dog, make me overall rather disgusted with the situation. She treats him worse than a regular warder.

 

That being said, i really hope she dies. IMO the only "balanced" Aes Sedai / Ashaman relationship is Flinn and Corele, they seem to respect each other and maybe have a slight fondness. All of the other ones were mad sketchy

 

Yeah, Flinn and Corele I like. Eben and Daigian looked like it was going alright until he died.

[Luckers]

She treats him worse than a regular warder.

 

Actually she treats him precisely the way she would treat any newly bonded warder--it's just not working that well, because the balance of power is shifting in this new bond situation.

[MasterAblar]

Actually she treats him precisely the way she would treat any newly bonded warder--it's just not working that well, because the balance of power is shifting in this new bond situation.

 

True, I was probably thinking of how warders (regular warders that is) are usually treated by their Aes Sedai, rather than how she treats hers. Come to think of it we don't see much of Merise's warders. But treating them the same way she treats Narishma is hardly something to be proud of. I found the whole "warders can't recieve something that doesn't come from their Aes Sedai" rather appalling.

[driedraspberry]

Most instances of her bullying Rand(and really there are only about five in the series) tie into either attempting to guage his character or forcing him to face his inner demons. She was successful in both. What is more important to keep in mind however is how she doesn't force her way and backs him to the hilt when needed. We see this at the Cleansing, alliance with the Seanchan etc. In essence all her actions are preceded by a careful study of the situation and her actions follow accordingly.

 

I don't think she did though, not through bullying. In those instances, taking things from Rand's pov, he was left flabbergasted and agitated. I think she underestimated him in certain cases, and overestimated him in others. Heck, the boy couldn't even comprehend what was going on when she gave him fair warning through counting.

 

 

Don't be so hard on Merise. In the beginning she did treat Narishma like someone she could control, but the rules on the relationship between Aes Sedai and Asha'man who are bonded to each other yet have to be written. Narishma is a young man and she is an Aes Sedai with decades of experience. It stands to reason that she takes a more dominant role in the beginning, but we have seen evidence already that the power balance is shifting. Jahar may yet end up as the dominant one for all we know.

 

She could be the more dominant one, that's fine, but her behavior overdoes the ownership aspect of the AS/warder bond to a point where it's disturbing. He's younger and an AM, yes, but that doesn't mean their relationship isn't problematic. Besides, it's not like she treats her other non-AM (older?) warders better, not that we know of.

 

We can only speculate on certain aspects of the warder bond. I'd personally like to see an AM warder deathrage and Narish is my ideal candidate for a moment of glory in aMoL. As to the power shift, it hasn't happened yet, has it? In CoT Narish is stronger, but not as strong as Merise yet. AM surge all at once instead of the steady clime AS experience, so for all we know he might not ever reach Merise's strength.

[Mr Ares]

I don't think Jahar or any Asha'man would fall victim to the warder deathrage as you put it. I think it's because they can access the OP themselves. Unlike regular Warders Asha'man can't be compelled through the bond.

Not quite. They are only immune if holding the Source. Otherwise, they can be compelled as normal.

 

Actually she treats him precisely the way she would treat any newly bonded warder--it's just not working that well, because the balance of power is shifting in this new bond situation.

 

True, I was probably thinking of how warders (regular warders that is) are usually treated by their Aes Sedai, rather than how she treats hers. Come to think of it we don't see much of Merise's warders. But treating them the same way she treats Narishma is hardly something to be proud of. I found the whole "warders can't recieve something that doesn't come from their Aes Sedai" rather appalling.

The important point is that Jahar is newly bonded - she's trying to establish power. To make sure he will follow her orders.

 

Don't be so hard on Merise. In the beginning she did treat Narishma like someone she could control, but the rules on the relationship between Aes Sedai and Asha'man who are bonded to each other yet have to be written. Narishma is a young man and she is an Aes Sedai with decades of experience. It stands to reason that she takes a more dominant role in the beginning, but we have seen evidence already that the power balance is shifting. Jahar may yet end up as the dominant one for all we know.

 

She could be the more dominant one, that's fine, but her behavior overdoes the ownership aspect of the AS/warder bond to a point where it's disturbing. He's younger and an AM, yes, but that doesn't mean their relationship isn't problematic. Besides, it's not like she treats her other non-AM (older?) warders better, not that we know of.

 

We can only speculate on certain aspects of the warder bond. I'd personally like to see an AM warder deathrage and Narish is my ideal candidate for a moment of glory in aMoL. As to the power shift, it hasn't happened yet, has it? In CoT Narish is stronger, but not as strong as Merise yet. AM surge all at once instead of the steady clime AS experience, so for all we know he might not ever reach Merise's strength.

In terms of power shift, it's not about strength in the Power. It's about personal power, who is dominant in the relationship. Traditionally, the AS leads and the Warder follows. Narishma isn't willing to knuckle under. Even if he never ends up stronger than her in the OP, he can still establish a dynamic with him in charge and her following.

[MasterAblar]

The important point is that Jahar is newly bonded - she's trying to establish power. To make sure he will follow her orders.

 

Yeah, and I don't see a problem with that, I just think she's taking it too far. It's one thing to want him to obey her, it's another to treat him like a servant, which is how she treats him, and apparently her other warders as well. Not to mention butting into affairs in which she has no say whatsoever like his promotion to the full rank of Ashaman which has nothing to do with him being her warder. And she could feel through the bond how enraged he was about it too.

[Vardar]

I don't think she did though, not through bullying. In those instances, taking things from Rand's pov, he was left flabbergasted and agitated. I think she underestimated him in certain cases, and overestimated him in others. Heck, the boy couldn't even comprehend what was going on when she gave him fair warning through counting.

 

I think it was more of a disbelief thing than not comprehending. If someone in your life counted at you today, I'd assume the look on your face would be one of utter disbelief or stupidity as your mind tried to process the fact that someone was counting at you, an adult. I'd assume most people would react in that manner. Some wouldn't, generally those would have the audicity to count at an adult :)

 

 

The way Merise treats him is deplorable, however think about it. Generally speaking, warders are for protection. What good is a bodyguard who doesn't obey? It goes both ways however ,as the protectee should obey the protector in certain situations, Lan and Moraine showed it best. Merise is really a jerk (to put it lightly) about it. She doesn't have to be nearly rude, especially since they were blackmailed into being bonded. However these are AS we're speaking of. They do have extreme senses of entitlement. (as a stereotype, they're not all bad, but they don't have that reputation for nothing)

[MasterAblar]

The way Merise treats him is deplorable, however think about it. Generally speaking, warders are for protection. What good is a bodyguard who doesn't obey? It goes both ways however ,as the protectee should obey the protector in certain situations, Lan and Moraine showed it best. Merise is really a jerk (to put it lightly) about it. She doesn't have to be nearly rude, especially since they were blackmailed into being bonded. However these are AS we're speaking of. They do have extreme senses of entitlement. (as a stereotype, they're not all bad, but they don't have that reputation for nothing)

 

Oh, I'm not particularly suprised, just rather dissapointed.

[driedraspberry]

I don't think she did though, not through bullyin. In those instances, taking things from Rand's pov, he was left flabbergasted and agitated. I think she underestimated him in certain cases, and overestimated him in others. Heck, the boy couldn't even comprehend what was going on when she gave him fair warning through counting.

 

I think it was more of a disbelief thing than not comprehending. If someone in your life counted at you today, I'd assume the look on your face would be one of utter disbelief or stupidity as your mind tried to process the fact that someone was counting at you, an adult. I'd assume most people would react in that manner. Some wouldn't, generally those would have the audicity to count at an adult :)

 

 

The way Merise treats him is deplorable, however think about it. Generally speaking, warders are for protection. What good is a bodyguard who doesn't obey? It goes both ways however ,as the protectee should obey the protector in certain situations, Lan and Moraine showed it best. Merise is really a jerk (to put it lightly) about it. She doesn't have to be nearly rude, especially since they were blackmailed into being bonded. However these are AS we're speaking of. They do have extreme senses of entitlement. (as a stereotype, they're not all bad, but they don't have that reputation for nothing)

 

But by that point Rand was used to Cads spanking him for bad behavior. The counting should've been a natural derivation from their relationship dynamics, but Rand was clueless in regards to what he was doing wrong etc.

[avernite]

Her plans were working before Semi came along. After that, things spun out of her control somewhat. True, she didn't anticipate one of the Chosen breaking free and using the Domination Band to control him to the point of choking the woman he loves, with the only way for him to escape being to break his own rule against killing women and to use the TP. How shortsighted of her. And there wasn't really anything she could do about Tam neglecting the advice she gave him, which only antagonised Rand further. You don't really refute my point - to say that things happened that were outside her ability to control or predict does not indicate that her way of dealing with him was something other than the best.

 

To be honest, I though it was Min/Nynaeve who had almost achieved success when Semi came along with the domination band, if anyone. Had that been the big swing in Rand's character rather than him going down the deep end before VoG, I would not be congratulating Cadsuane on her success, I'd be congratulating Min. True, after that point Min basically gave up (and Nynaeve after Natrin's barrow) so Cadsuane was the only one still having a plan... but if her plans were upset by Semirhage so were everyone else's, and those other people's plans seemed to be working better than hers.

 

What plan would that have been? As Nyn herself said...

 

TGS

"Dare we send him as he is, with that look in his eyes? Nynaeve, he's stopped caring. Nothing matters to him anymore but defeating the Dark One."

 

"Isn't that what we want him to do?"

 

"I. . . ." She stopped. "Winning won't be winning at all if Rand becomes something as bad as the Forsaken . . . We—"

 

"I understand," Nynaeve said suddenly. "Light burn me, but I do, and you're right. I just don't like the answers those conclusions are giving me."

 

"What conclusions?"

 

Nynaeve sighed. "That Cadsuane was right,"

 

TGS 'The Last That Could Be Done:

 

I have to destroy them, he thought. All of the Forsaken, and I must do it for good this time. I muse be hard.

Except that Min didn't want him to be hard. He didn't want to frighten her, of all people. There were no games with Min; she might call him a fool, but she did not lie, and that made him want to be the man she wished him to be. but did he dare?

Later, same chapter.

 

"Min,"he said, softening his voice. "Maybe you're right. Parhaps I've gone too far."

 

Of course Semmy comes in just then, but it's clear he thinks he's listening to Min, not Cadsuane, and then the plans fall through.

[Suttree]

Of course Semmy comes in just then, but it's clear he thinks he's listening to Min, not Cadsuane, and then the plans fall through.

 

Semmy was indeed a huge setback but Min got the idea from Cads and the WOs. It was originally Cads plan and they discuss that openly. The Nyn quote only highlights this. Her questioning his actions in this scene is not a plan. In fact before your quote Min even references the perspective coming from Cads:

TGS

"Well, no," Min said. "Of course not. But we can't let the troubles in the world destroy us. Cadsuane says that—"

[Vardar]

I don't think she did though, not through bullyin. In those instances, taking things from Rand's pov, he was left flabbergasted and agitated. I think she underestimated him in certain cases, and overestimated him in others. Heck, the boy couldn't even comprehend what was going on when she gave him fair warning through counting.

 

I think it was more of a disbelief thing than not comprehending. If someone in your life counted at you today, I'd assume the look on your face would be one of utter disbelief or stupidity as your mind tried to process the fact that someone was counting at you, an adult. I'd assume most people would react in that manner. Some wouldn't, generally those would have the audicity to count at an adult :)

 

 

The way Merise treats him is deplorable, however think about it. Generally speaking, warders are for protection. What good is a bodyguard who doesn't obey? It goes both ways however ,as the protectee should obey the protector in certain situations, Lan and Moraine showed it best. Merise is really a jerk (to put it lightly) about it. She doesn't have to be nearly rude, especially since they were blackmailed into being bonded. However these are AS we're speaking of. They do have extreme senses of entitlement. (as a stereotype, they're not all bad, but they don't have that reputation for nothing)

 

But by that point Rand was used to Cads spanking him for bad behavior. The counting should've been a natural derivation from their relationship dynamics, but Rand was clueless in regards to what he was doing wrong etc.

 

That was the first time she spanked him wasn't it? (First and only I believe) She was rude, extremely rude, but remember, he had kinda come to expect that from her kind. I think he was kinda shocked at the count n spank.

 

Now Mat, Mat would have seen it coming, and got to her first.

[Vardar]

Of course Semmy comes in just then, but it's clear he thinks he's listening to Min, not Cadsuane, and then the plans fall through.

 

Semmy was indeed a huge setback but Min got the idea from Cads and the WOs. It was originally Cads plan and they discuss that openly. The Nyn quote only highlights this. Her questioning his actions in this scene is not a plan. In fact before your quote Min even references the perspective coming from Cads:

TGS

"Well, no," Min said. "Of course not. But we can't let the troubles in the world destroy us. Cadsuane says that—"

 

 

Min was complaining about Rand's hardness well before she started hanging with Cads. In fact, was Min part of Cad's inner circle pre-TGS?

[thisguy]

Most of the women close to Rand complain about how he treats himself (and, I'm not saying that in a bad way). It started with not enough sleep and not taking responsibility for those who died doing his bidding, etc. The 'Hard' thing just grew from that.

[Suttree]

Of course Semmy comes in just then, but it's clear he thinks he's listening to Min, not Cadsuane, and then the plans fall through.

 

Semmy was indeed a huge setback but Min got the idea from Cads and the WOs. It was originally Cads plan and they discuss that openly. The Nyn quote only highlights this. Her questioning his actions in this scene is not a plan. In fact before your quote Min even references the perspective coming from Cads:

TGS

"Well, no," Min said. "Of course not. But we can't let the troubles in the world destroy us. Cadsuane says that—"

 

 

Min was complaining about Rand's hardness well before she started hanging with Cads. In fact, was Min part of Cad's inner circle pre-TGS?

 

Aside from the fact that it does nothing to address the overarching issues of what it would mean for TG(which is what Cads introduced) it also doens't speak to the lack of any plan from Min which was the orginal point. Again the Nyn comment to Min about Cads beeing "right" is rather telling.

 

As an aside I would be interested to see what quotes you are referring to. IIRC it was around ACoS that the hardness really started to become an issue. Specifically TPoD is the book that things really started going south with his ego and temperment.

[driedraspberry]

I don't think she did though, not through bullyin. In those instances, taking things from Rand's pov, he was left flabbergasted and agitated. I think she underestimated him in certain cases, and overestimated him in others. Heck, the boy couldn't even comprehend what was going on when she gave him fair warning through counting.

 

I think it was more of a disbelief thing than not comprehending. If someone in your life counted at you today, I'd assume the look on your face would be one of utter disbelief or stupidity as your mind tried to process the fact that someone was counting at you, an adult. I'd assume most people would react in that manner. Some wouldn't, generally those would have the audicity to count at an adult :)

 

 

The way Merise treats him is deplorable, however think about it. Generally speaking, warders are for protection. What good is a bodyguard who doesn't obey? It goes both ways however ,as the protectee should obey the protector in certain situations, Lan and Moraine showed it best. Merise is really a jerk (to put it lightly) about it. She doesn't have to be nearly rude, especially since they were blackmailed into being bonded. However these are AS we're speaking of. They do have extreme senses of entitlement. (as a stereotype, they're not all bad, but they don't have that reputation for nothing)

 

But by that point Rand was used to Cads spanking him for bad behavior. The counting should've been a natural derivation from their relationship dynamics, but Rand was clueless in regards to what he was doing wrong etc.

 

That was the first time she spanked him wasn't it? (First and only I believe) She was rude, extremely rude, but remember, he had kinda come to expect that from her kind. I think he was kinda shocked at the count n spank.

 

Now Mat, Mat would have seen it coming, and got to her first.

 

Hmm I was under the impression she did some punishing before by her CoT POV, but perhaps not.

 

Mat's a boss bish. And capable of seducing both Cads and Merise (simultaneously?) with little effort.

[fuzz1717]

Mat's a boss bish. And capable of seducing both Cads and Merise (simultaneously?) with little effort.

Seducing? Well, i'm not so sure about that. Winning over? For sure.

[driedraspberry]

Mat's a boss bish. And capable of seducing both Cads and Merise (simultaneously?) with little effort.

Seducing? Well, i'm not so sure about that. Winning over? For sure.

 

If spanking is involved though it can only go one way...

[fuzz1717]

Mat's a boss bish. And capable of seducing both Cads and Merise (simultaneously?) with little effort.

Seducing? Well, i'm not so sure about that. Winning over? For sure.

 

If spanking is involved though it can only go one way...

 

Well, if you're into that kind of stuff... go for it. Keeping this PG( 13?) though, I think we can all acknowledge that Cadsuane as a person is rather annoying, if not outright impossible to be around, but as an AS she does a remarkably good job keeping Rand in check.

 

I don't really feel like reading through 27 pages of posts, but has anyone disliked some of the Sea Folk? Besides the fact that their customs are weird (which i suppose isn't a reason for dislike), they all seem to believe that they are superior to everyone. They complain a lot; when they made the bargain with Elayne and Nyn they kept complaining that the deal was unfair, when in reality it was the AS getting screwed. The Sea Folk were reluctant to help Elayne escape from the BA, and they only decided to for their precious bargain. They haven't really done anything for Rand that I can think of other than bringing food to Bandar Eban, and just in general they annoy me.

[condonmc]

When did cadsuane ever spank Rand? ........I dont think she did...