Elayne

[MasterAblar]

I see people keep referring to beheading Perrin, which I admit I was annoyed by at the first read through. But after I've gone through it a couple of times, it's quite obvious she never had any intentions of doing it, she even thought that she wouldn't do it, it was merely used to try and unsettle them in their discussion on how to sort out the whole deal. She obviously couldn't just hand over a huge chunk of Andor to a "commoner" without any real reason, so they had to come up with some excuse for it.

 

I found she was rather rude and unthankful but that's just me. If she considers the TR as part of her kingdom then Perrin just saved part of her kingdom, a part that had been ignored and left to fend for itself by the crown. And he did that by taking charge.

[Manscher]

As David pointed out, he did raise the banner of Manetheren, which is a clear sign of rebellion and I have no doubt that the law require a hanging for such a crime. Remember she is the queen and she has to uphold the law, regardless of friendship. Rand himself ordered the hanging of an Aiel he almost considered a friend, because he had killed a "tree killer" in something that seems like a mere bar brawl. Yet nobody blames him for upholding the law?

 

 

But I agree, she was rather rude regarding the situation, it actually irked me quite a lot at first, but there is reason behind it.

[Smittyphi]

As David pointed out, he did raise the banner of Manetheren, which is a clear sign of rebellion and I have no doubt that the law require a hanging for such a crime. Remember she is the queen and she has to uphold the law, regardless of friendship. Rand himself ordered the hanging of an Aiel he almost considered a friend, because he had killed a "tree killer" in something that seems like a mere bar brawl. Yet nobody blames him for upholding the law?

 

Manetheren was raised before Rand took over Andor. I'd argue that Andor had no rightful ruler as Morgase denounced the throne, Andor can't have a king, only a queen and Rand hasn't killed Rahvin yet.

 

You could argue that he created house Manetheren...

[Durinax]

I see people keep referring to beheading Perrin, which I admit I was annoyed by at the first read through. But after I've gone through it a couple of times, it's quite obvious she never had any intentions of doing it, she even thought that she wouldn't do it, it was merely used to try and unsettle them in their discussion on how to sort out the whole deal. She obviously couldn't just hand over a huge chunk of Andor to a "commoner" without any real reason, so they had to come up with some excuse for it.

 

I found she was rather rude and unthankful but that's just me. If she considers the TR as part of her kingdom then Perrin just saved part of her kingdom, a part that had been ignored and left to fend for itself by the crown. And he did that by taking charge.

yes and he likely owuld have been thanked, but after that he marched across andor with his own banner raised, and crown officials where refused entry into the TR's which are both what likely did the damage

[XXX]

As David pointed out, he did raise the banner of Manetheren, which is a clear sign of rebellion and I have no doubt that the law require a hanging for such a crime. Remember she is the queen and she has to uphold the law, regardless of friendship. Rand himself ordered the hanging of an Aiel he almost considered a friend, because he had killed a "tree killer" in something that seems like a mere bar brawl. Yet nobody blames him for upholding the law?

 

 

But I agree, she was rather rude regarding the situation, it actually irked me quite a lot at first, but there is reason behind it.

 

If not for the Dragon clearing the field for Elayne..poor little princess would have been Rahvin's second play thing after her mother.

 

This is a constant thing about the super girls...no gratitude at all.Her "Rand has no right to give me the throne" dialogues nearly made me tear my hair out. Andor could have been conquered if Rand wanted it,nothing Elayne could have done about it..but does she show gratitude?..oh no.

[Himiko]

To be fair, she was the rightful heir to the throne, I would have been kind of pissed at her if she'd been grateful for the fact that Rand hadn't taken over her country because he had the oppurtunity :P I don't know, I saw where she was coming from with "Rand can't give me Andor, I have to take it"- if she allows Rand to give her Andor, then it looks like she admits that Andor is the Dragon Reborn's to bestow. She is the rightful heir to Morgase's throne, and doesn't want it to look like she is Rand's puppet, or that he has authority over Andor in some way. Fair enough.

[XXX]

To be fair, she was the rightful heir to the throne, I would have been kind of pissed at her if she'd been grateful for the fact that Rand hadn't taken over her country because he had the oppurtunity :P I don't know, I saw where she was coming from with "Rand can't give me Andor, I have to take it"- if she allows Rand to give her Andor, then it looks like she admits that Andor is the Dragon Reborn's to bestow. She is the rightful heir to Morgase's throne, and doesn't want it to look like she is Rand's puppet, or that he has authority over Andor in some way. Fair enough.

 

There was no rightful heir...her mother lost the crown which put her right in jeopardy. Bashere has the greatest line in the series when he says if you look far enough every royal line began with a clever commoner.

 

If not for the Dragon there would be no Queen Elayne.

[Suttree]

To be fair, she was the rightful heir to the throne, I would have been kind of pissed at her if she'd been grateful for the fact that Rand hadn't taken over her country because he had the oppurtunity :P I don't know, I saw where she was coming from with "Rand can't give me Andor, I have to take it"- if she allows Rand to give her Andor, then it looks like she admits that Andor is the Dragon Reborn's to bestow. She is the rightful heir to Morgase's throne, and doesn't want it to look like she is Rand's puppet, or that he has authority over Andor in some way. Fair enough.

 

There was no rightful heir...her mother lost the crown which put her right in jeopardy. Bashere has the greatest line in the series when he says if you look far enough every royal line began with a clever commoner.

 

If not for the Dragon there would be no Queen Elayne.

 

Elayne Trakand was the rightful heir to the throne of Andor. You can't just ignore how the political system RJ put forth for that country works. Her saying Rand couldn't give her the thrown had to do with how it would have been perceived by the rest of the country. She couldn't be seen to be handed the crown by a man. This is made very clear in the text.

[XXX]

To be fair, she was the rightful heir to the throne, I would have been kind of pissed at her if she'd been grateful for the fact that Rand hadn't taken over her country because he had the oppurtunity :P I don't know, I saw where she was coming from with "Rand can't give me Andor, I have to take it"- if she allows Rand to give her Andor, then it looks like she admits that Andor is the Dragon Reborn's to bestow. She is the rightful heir to Morgase's throne, and doesn't want it to look like she is Rand's puppet, or that he has authority over Andor in some way. Fair enough.

 

There was no rightful heir...her mother lost the crown which put her right in jeopardy. Bashere has the greatest line in the series when he says if you look far enough every royal line began with a clever commoner.

 

If not for the Dragon there would be no Queen Elayne.

 

Elayne Trakand was the rightful heir to the throne of Andor. You can't just ignore how the political system RJ put forth for that country works. Her saying Rand couldn't give her the thrown had to do with how it would have been perceived by the rest of the country. She couldn't be seen to be handed the crown by a man. This is made very clear in the text.

 

Maybe..but where was her gratefulness that Rand gave her an opportunity to get the crown.

[Kahsm]

To be fair, she was the rightful heir to the throne, I would have been kind of pissed at her if she'd been grateful for the fact that Rand hadn't taken over her country because he had the oppurtunity :P I don't know, I saw where she was coming from with "Rand can't give me Andor, I have to take it"- if she allows Rand to give her Andor, then it looks like she admits that Andor is the Dragon Reborn's to bestow. She is the rightful heir to Morgase's throne, and doesn't want it to look like she is Rand's puppet, or that he has authority over Andor in some way. Fair enough.

 

There was no rightful heir...her mother lost the crown which put her right in jeopardy. Bashere has the greatest line in the series when he says if you look far enough every royal line began with a clever commoner.

 

If not for the Dragon there would be no Queen Elayne.

 

Elayne Trakand was the rightful heir to the throne of Andor. You can't just ignore how the political system RJ put forth for that country works. Her saying Rand couldn't give her the thrown had to do with how it would have been perceived by the rest of the country. She couldn't be seen to be handed the crown by a man. This is made very clear in the text.

 

The Queen requires the support of the houses to rule in Andor. That's the whole reason Elayne wouldn't let Rand secure her throne for her. If she were simply heir, and no one could legally say anything else about it, then Rand having secured it for her wouldn't have been a problem. But her House's support was in jeopardy after the mess her mother made. If her sworn allies had supported someone else, she'd no longer be Queen. That's what made the contest for the crown important.

 

That being said. Raising a flag is not a sign of rebellion. And even so, when you haven't sent a guard or tax collector there in decades, citizens don't even know they're part of your country, and they had to fend off a shadow spawn army by themselves, I would think you'd be a little more civil. Proud even... (Rand doesn't find out Two Rivers is part of Andor till he's almost to Caemlyn and finally sees some guards on the road)!

[Himiko]

To be fair, she was the rightful heir to the throne, I would have been kind of pissed at her if she'd been grateful for the fact that Rand hadn't taken over her country because he had the oppurtunity :P I don't know, I saw where she was coming from with "Rand can't give me Andor, I have to take it"- if she allows Rand to give her Andor, then it looks like she admits that Andor is the Dragon Reborn's to bestow. She is the rightful heir to Morgase's throne, and doesn't want it to look like she is Rand's puppet, or that he has authority over Andor in some way. Fair enough.

 

There was no rightful heir...her mother lost the crown which put her right in jeopardy. Bashere has the greatest line in the series when he says if you look far enough every royal line began with a clever commoner.

 

If not for the Dragon there would be no Queen Elayne.

 

Elayne Trakand was the rightful heir to the throne of Andor. You can't just ignore how the political system RJ put forth for that country works. Her saying Rand couldn't give her the thrown had to do with how it would have been perceived by the rest of the country. She couldn't be seen to be handed the crown by a man. This is made very clear in the text.

 

Maybe..but where was her gratefulness that Rand gave her an opportunity to get the crown.

 

I still don't see why she should be grateful. Her mother made a mess of things, true, that's why Elayne had to fight for her throne, else she would simply have been able to walk into Andor and take it. But Morgase was the queen of Andor, until she abdicated/ was presumed dead, and Elayne was her eldest (and only) daughter, and thus the clear heir to the throne of Andor. There was no "Succession crisis", in the sense that it was perfectly clear whom Morgase's heir was, perfectly legitimate by all laws of the country- the issue that caused it was that Morgase had messed things up under Compulsion, and so the other houses were dissatisfied with her rule/ saw an opportunity to seize power themselves, and turned against House Trakand.

 

I believe she was irritated with Rand, because by being seen to "give" her the throne, publicly announcing that he intended it for her, he makes her job at making the rest of Andor see her as the strongest candidate for ruler harder. If she allows Rand, as the steward of Andor, if you will, to give her the throne, then it seems like Rand still has power over Andor, and that she may well be his puppet ruler. If he had remained, or intended to remain as the ruler of Andor, that's one thing, although with the history of Andor always having a queen, he wouldn't likely remain for that long, or at the very least be rebelled against. He doesn't, he makes a fairly big deal of saving the throne for her. Whilst I can see where you're coming from, I still see why Elayne very publicly tore down the Dragon banners and claimed the throne in her own right. I can also see why she was annoyed.

 

Honestly, I have no issue with Elayne, I quite liked her in the earlier parts of the series, barring the odd moment of immaturity, and I have no issue with her rise to power, though it did stretch out over a lot of books. Its her constant risk taking because she believes she's safe until her babies are born that irks me.

[XXX]

You forget the if not for Rand, Rahvin would still be at Andor. Where did Elayne thank him for that?

[Manscher]

You forget the if not for Rand, Rahvin would still be at Andor. Where did Elayne thank him for that?

In WoT, women do not need to show gratitude for any help, it is after all the job of men to serve as obedient pets and sacrifice themselves for the sake of saving stubborn women :p

[Suttree]

Elayne Trakand was the rightful heir to the throne of Andor. You can't just ignore how the political system RJ put forth for that country works. Her saying Rand couldn't give her the thrown had to do with how it would have been perceived by the rest of the country. She couldn't be seen to be handed the crown by a man. This is made very clear in the text.

 

The Queen requires the support of the houses to rule in Andor. That's the whole reason Elayne wouldn't let Rand secure her throne for her. If she were simply heir, and no one could legally say anything else about it, then Rand having secured it for her wouldn't have been a problem. But her House's support was in jeopardy after the mess her mother made. If her sworn allies had supported someone else, she'd no longer be Queen. That's what made the contest for the crown important.

 

Just because other houses decided to seize power doesn't mean Elayne wasn't the Daughter Heir. By all the laws of Andor the throne was hers by right. Their have only been four succession wars in the history of Andor and because of the mess a Forsaken made this was one of those times. No one is disputing that she needed the votes, but that is not the only reason she couldn't be seen to take the throne from Rand. The perception is key.

 

TPoD Ch28

“You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

 

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against?

 

That being said. Raising a flag is not a sign of rebellion. And even so, when you haven't sent a guard or tax collector there in decades, citizens don't even know they're part of your country, and they had to fend off a shadow spawn army by themselves, I would think you'd be a little more civil. Proud even... (Rand doesn't find out Two Rivers is part of Andor till he's almost to Caemlyn and finally sees some guards on the road)!

 

Maybe raising a flag isn't but having an army along with it, marching and fighting battles under the banner and then denying Andoran officials entry into the TR's most definitely is.

[David Selig]

You forget the if not for Rand, Rahvin would still be at Andor. Where did Elayne thank him for that?

Hey, she slept with Rand, is that not enough?

 

And technically Nynaeve did most of the work in killing Rahvin, Rand would've been dead if she hasn't intervened.

 

Oh, and Rand, Mat and Perrin are just as bad as the Supergirls in terms of not thanking people for helping them. Did they ever thank Moiraine for saving them a zillion times? Not at all. Did Mat thank the Aes Sedai for Healing him from the dagger back in TDR? Hell no.

[Manscher]

Mat gave up one of his eyes to pay back Moiraine for the help she's given him :p

[XXX]

You forget the if not for Rand, Rahvin would still be at Andor. Where did Elayne thank him for that?

Hey, she slept with Rand, is that not enough?

 

And technically Nynaeve did most of the work in killing Rahvin, Rand would've been dead if she hasn't intervened.

 

Oh, and Rand, Mat and Perrin are just as bad as the Supergirls in terms of not thanking people for helping them. Did they ever thank Moiraine for saving them a zillion times? Not at all. Did Mat thank the Aes Sedai for Healing him from the dagger back in TDR? Hell no.

 

Not exactly...nothing to say that Rand would not have disposed of him in the end. Nynaeve on the other hand was for certain dead by trying to engage Rahvin. Remmeber Mog saying that both the men were far more superior to them in powers in TAR.

[David Selig]

Rand was getting completely beaten in TAR before Nynaeve intervened, Rahvin was turning him into a mindless animal, Rand couldn't really resist, was slowly losing his grip on saidin and could channel only a trickle. Rahvin had him at his mercy and was toying with him - note that he was smiling looking down at Rand when Nynaeve arrived.

[XXX]

Rand was getting completely beaten in TAR before Nynaeve intervened, Rahvin was turning him into a mindless animal, Rand couldn't really resist, was slowly losing his grip on saidin and could channel only a trickle. Rahvin had him at his mercy and was toying with him - not e that he was smiling looking down at Rand when Nynaeve arrived.

 

Most of Rand's early fights against the Forsaken went just like that..with him just winning somehow as he does not even know exactly what he was doing.I would imagine he would have found a way to win as he did with Ishamael at Tear.

 

Rahvin was hardly toying with him..he was scared enough not to fight Rand head to head.

[Ala Rubra]

It doesn't really matter who was ultimately responsible for killing Rahvin, because without Rand holding the country for Elayne, Elayne would never have even had the chance to claim the throne. Dyelin was by far the most popular choice to be the new queen, and I doubt she would have waited if there was no one there to speak for (and enforce his opinion for) Elayne.

[sleepinghour]

Not exactly...nothing to say that Rand would not have disposed of him in the end. Nynaeve on the other hand was for certain dead by trying to engage Rahvin. Remmeber Mog saying that both the men were far more superior to them in powers in TAR.

I think it was pretty clear that Nynaeve saved Rand right in the nick of time. He was flailing around, transforming into some kind of animal and losing his grip on saidin.

 

Rahvin wreathed in fire, yet somehow standing as though untouched. If untouched now, it had not been so before. Only the size of the figure, the impossibility of it being anyone else, told Rand it was him. The Forsaken was a figure of char and cracked red flesh that would have strained any Healer to mend. The agony of it must have been overwhelming. Except that Rahvin would be inside the Void within that burned remnant of a man, wrapped in emptiness where the body's pain was distant and saidin close at hand.

It also sounds like Rahvin was dying already from his massive burn injuries, but it's possible he would have held on long enough to kill Nynaeve and Moghedien. So Rand also saved Nynaeve in the nick of time, and his balefire was necessary to bring Mat and Aviendha back to life. A good example of men and women working together.

 

I suspect RJ also wanted to give Rahvin—a man as beautiful as Galad, who sometimes used Compulsion to feed his appetite for pretty women—a fitting end by having a pretty woman destroy his face and take part in killing him. And Moghedien got to eat her words from TSR: "I would love to see Rahvin's eyes the day he meets you unblocked." I was actually a bit disappointed that Nynaeve didn't get to meet Morgase when she picked up Tam; it would have been a good opportunity for Morgase to get some closure and for Nynaeve to finally meet Lini like she always wanted.

[Suttree]

Rand was getting completely beaten in TAR before Nynaeve intervened, Rahvin was turning him into a mindless animal, Rand couldn't really resist, was slowly losing his grip on saidin and could channel only a trickle. Rahvin had him at his mercy and was toying with him - not e that he was smiling looking down at Rand when Nynaeve arrived.

 

Most of Rand's early fights against the Forsaken went just like that..with him just winning somehow as he does not even know exactly what he was doing.I would imagine he would have found a way to win as he did with Ishamael at Tear.

 

Wait what?!?! Are you referring to the fight with Be'lal in Tear? That time he was totally overmatched and saved by Moiraine when she used balefire.

 

It doesn't really matter who was ultimately responsible for killing Rahvin, because without Rand holding the country for Elayne, Elayne would never have even had the chance to claim the throne. Dyelin was by far the most popular choice to be the new queen, and I doubt she would have waited if there was no one there to speak for (and enforce his opinion for) Elayne.

 

She also never wanted the crown, she supported Trakand as the choice from the start. Dyelin is not the type to start a rebellion if there is a rightful heir.

[SuperFade]

I sense a derail approaching. Nevertheless...

 

The argument about Rand 'giving' Elayne Andor has been repeated many times, and each time I have been of the opinion that Rand did in fact give it to her, no matter what Elayne may believe. Morgase's actions disgraced Trakand, plain and simple. She turned all the strong Noble Houses against her and made her own House into a pariah and a haven for toadies and bootlickers. If it were not for Rand specifically holding the throne for Elayne, who was at that point off galavanting around Ebou Dar, another House would have stepped up and taken the throne within days. Trakand's position was untenable due to Rahvin's manipulations, with only Dyelin truly supporting Elayne's claim. Could Dyelin alone have held the throne for Elayne, an absent heir whose House has no other supporters among the nobility? I highly doubt it. Ellorien, Pelivar and the others would not have stood for it and either elected Dyelin by force or put forward their own candidate. The fear of the Dragon Reborn's retribution made Elayne's claim possible.

 

Without Rand, Rahvin would be King of Andor. We see from the narrative that he had no trouble replacing loyal soldiers with darkfriends and hiding darkspawn within Caemlyn itself. How long did Elayne spend chasing the Bowl of Winds? In that time Rahvin would have a solid hold on Andor and would require an enormous amount of resources to displace, resources Elayne would struggle to obtain. Even if she did by some miracle manage to get hold of enough soldiers and weapons to take back her country, the losses and damage to Andor would be immense.

 

Overall, I understand why Elayne would want to be seen as taking Andor for herself. Even so, it's just not what happened. It would be far more forgivable if she acknowledged to herself that yes, Rand had given her Andor, but that she had had to put on a charade in order to make things acceptable for the Andoran people. Instead she fumes about how Rand has no right to give her anything.

[XXX]

I sense a derail approaching. Nevertheless...

 

The argument about Rand 'giving' Elayne Andor has been repeated many times, and each time I have been of the opinion that Rand did in fact give it to her, no matter what Elayne may believe. Morgase's actions disgraced Trakand, plain and simple. She turned all the strong Noble Houses against her and made her own House into a pariah and a haven for toadies and bootlickers. If it were not for Rand specifically holding the throne for Elayne, who was at that point off galavanting around Ebou Dar, another House would have stepped up and taken the throne within days. Trakand's position was untenable due to Rahvin's manipulations, with only Dyelin truly supporting Elayne's claim. Could Dyelin alone have held the throne for Elayne, an absent heir whose House has no other supporters among the nobility? I highly doubt it. Ellorien, Pelivar and the others would not have stood for it and either elected Dyelin by force or put forward their own candidate. The fear of the Dragon Reborn's retribution made Elayne's claim possible.

 

Without Rand, Rahvin would be King of Andor. We see from the narrative that he had no trouble replacing loyal soldiers with darkfriends and hiding darkspawn within Caemlyn itself. How long did Elayne spend chasing the Bowl of Winds? In that time Rahvin would have a solid hold on Andor and would require an enormous amount of resources to displace, resources Elayne would struggle to obtain. Even if she did by some miracle manage to get hold of enough soldiers and weapons to take back her country, the losses and damage to Andor would be immense.

 

Overall, I understand why Elayne would want to be seen as taking Andor for herself. Even so, it's just not what happened. It would be far more forgivable if she acknowledged to herself that yes, Rand had given her Andor, but that she had had to put on a charade in order to make things acceptable for the Andoran people. Instead she fumes about how Rand has no right to give her anything.

 

Yup because he is a man..no matter he is infinitely more knowledgeable and powerful than her puny self, an attitude she shares with the so called Aes Sedai Egwene. Nynaeve is the only one who knows better.

[Suttree]

I sense a derail approaching. Nevertheless...

 

The argument about Rand 'giving' Elayne Andor has been repeated many times, and each time I have been of the opinion that Rand did in fact give it to her, no matter what Elayne may believe. Morgase's actions disgraced Trakand, plain and simple. She turned all the strong Noble Houses against her and made her own House into a pariah and a haven for toadies and bootlickers. If it were not for Rand specifically holding the throne for Elayne, who was at that point off galavanting around Ebou Dar, another House would have stepped up and taken the throne within days. Trakand's position was untenable due to Rahvin's manipulations, with only Dyelin truly supporting Elayne's claim. Could Dyelin alone have held the throne for Elayne, an absent heir whose House has no other supporters among the nobility? I highly doubt it. Ellorien, Pelivar and the others would not have stood for it and either elected Dyelin by force or put forward their own candidate. The fear of the Dragon Reborn's retribution made Elayne's claim possible.

 

Without Rand, Rahvin would be King of Andor. We see from the narrative that he had no trouble replacing loyal soldiers with darkfriends and hiding darkspawn within Caemlyn itself. How long did Elayne spend chasing the Bowl of Winds? In that time Rahvin would have a solid hold on Andor and would require an enormous amount of resources to displace, resources Elayne would struggle to obtain. Even if she did by some miracle manage to get hold of enough soldiers and weapons to take back her country, the losses and damage to Andor would be immense.

 

Overall, I understand why Elayne would want to be seen as taking Andor for herself. Even so, it's just not what happened. It would be far more forgivable if she acknowledged to herself that yes, Rand had given her Andor, but that she had had to put on a charade in order to make things acceptable for the Andoran people. Instead she fumes about how Rand has no right to give her anything.

 

 

Just want to point out a few things. First Rahvin's actions disgraced Trakand plain and simple. You can not say someone under compulsion is responsible for their actions.

 

Second Elayne was not "galavanting" around Ebou Dar. She put potentially saving the world and fixing the weather when it was in dire need ahead of her own political aspirations which should be lauded.

 

Lastly while Rand did hold Andor as Regent he never took the throne like in other nations and therefore it was never his to give(hence no right to giver Elayne anything). Dyelin herself made it clear that Andor would have risen against him had he stayed too long and Bashere(one of the GC's) clearly said it would have been a disaster had Elayne used Rand's army to hold off the other claimants. I wouldn't call all the work she did in the succession war a "charade". Did the initial threat of Rand's power buy her time? Of course and it was time well spent finding the bowl.