The nature of Rand Sedai

[Kahsm]

Since Egwene always invades other threads, isn't it fair that her thread for many posts contain not a word on, you know, Egwene?

 

I admire the discussion that has been going about LTT/Rand/rebirth/same soul/different person, bit it seems it is a litte bit like a discussion about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I personally don't really understand this one soul/different personalities thing. Is soul just some formless elan vital that can be anything before it becomes a certain "person"? And after that it could be somebody totally different?

 

I get the arguments and saw RJ's quotes, but it still hardly makes sense when we read that Rand gets better when he decides that he is LTT. And there are not only memories - it's also the way of speaking, behaviour patterns, eyes, voice...

 

Didn't Egwene say he spoke like an educated person? The memories experienced "like a dream" wouldn't account for that. There was some amalgamation of personalities that happened and it was more LTT "adding" Rand al'Thor to his previous self than the other way around, at least it seems so in ToM.

 

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

 

Ok, this really isn't nature vs nurture at all. Once you've done something, all you have of that experience is the memory. Rand presumably has all LTT's memories now, and enlightenment put them in sync with his own. So while some argue that he has different personality and experiences, that is a moot point because those all happened after LTT's memories. Basically Rand is a continuation of LTT, so the personality differences are understandable.

 

However, this doesn't mean they are the same person, it all depends what you define as a person. I just wanted to argue that Rand's experiences don't separate him from LTT, since they are a continuation of the same life according to Rand. Rand feels as though he lived LTT's life.

 

Edit: P.S. Egwene Rules

[Guest PiotrekS]

Since Egwene always invades other threads, isn't it fair that her thread for many posts contain not a word on, you know, Egwene?

 

I admire the discussion that has been going about LTT/Rand/rebirth/same soul/different person, bit it seems it is a litte bit like a discussion about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I personally don't really understand this one soul/different personalities thing. Is soul just some formless elan vital that can be anything before it becomes a certain "person"? And after that it could be somebody totally different?

 

I get the arguments and saw RJ's quotes, but it still hardly makes sense when we read that Rand gets better when he decides that he is LTT. And there are not only memories - it's also the way of speaking, behaviour patterns, eyes, voice...

 

Didn't Egwene say he spoke like an educated person? The memories experienced "like a dream" wouldn't account for that. There was some amalgamation of personalities that happened and it was more LTT "adding" Rand al'Thor to his previous self than the other way around, at least it seems so in ToM.

 

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!

 

Ok, this really isn't nature vs nurture at all. Once you've done something, all you have of that experience is the memory. Rand presumably has all LTT's memories now, and enlightenment put them in sync with his own. So while some argue that he has different personality and experiences, that is a moot point because those all happened after LTT's memories. Basically Rand is a continuation of LTT, so the personality differences are understandable.

 

However, this doesn't mean they are the same person, it all depends what you define as a person. I just wanted to argue that Rand's experiences don't separate him from LTT, since they are a continuation of the same life according to Rand. Rand feels as though he lived LTT's life.

 

Edit: P.S. Egwene Rules

I agree with that, especially calling Rand a continuation of LTT is spot on IMO. If Rand feels he lived LTT's life, how can we prove he is wrong?

 

PS. Egwene sucks

[Elvira_Sedai]

Some thoughts about Rand/LTT . Is they're the same person ? The answer is " yes " for their inner sight and " no " for anyone else . Yes for Rand because he remember anything LTT did as done himself ,no - because the fact that Rand was born a lot of time after LTT death . So , my opinion is that readers should answer yes when reading Rand PoVs and no reading someone others .

[Mr Ares]

Rand's arrogance does not start to manifest until the memories and knowledge of Lews Therin starts to slip through in The Shadow Rising.

Which comes at the same time as his rise to power - in the first three books, he is in denial about being the Dragon. In the fourth, he admits he is the Dragon, and he is also the ruler of Tear.

I agree that the manifestion of LTT in Rands mind was never LTT, but rather a way for Rand subconsciousness to handle the fact that the memories and experiences of one of his previous incarnations began to seep into him.

I disagree, I think there was more to it than merely a coping mechanism, but less than the entirety of LTT.

 

As for the heroes not being the same person, then what about those in the world of dreams?

Each life of a Hero is a new person. The Hero between lives, in T'a'r, is not any of those people so much as a composite - CompositeBirgitte isn't any of the Birgittes who came before her, but she is made from them. They are a part of her, but she is still a different person to any of them. Birgitte, on being riped out of T'a'r, is a person, but she is a different person to any Birgitte who came before her.

 

And yet he very much states that he is the one and same person, the key difference is though that he's been raised differently this time, and that has made him a better person.

Rand is not a philosopher. His understanding of things need not be accepted by us - and we lack his POV, for the most part. What we have is not so much how Rand thinks things are, but how Rand explains that he thinks things are. And that key difference is, well, a key difference - it is a point that indicates he is not the same person.

 

Yes, I dispute the notion that different incarnations of a given Hero are all the same person - they are not, they are incarnations of the same soul, but different people.

Arguable on so many fronts. What makes a person? His genetic makeup and his environment?

They are a part of it.

If he has an actual soul (as in, it's existence being a fact) do genetics really matter?

Yes. A soul can have various incarnations, each of those a different person, separate and distinct from those that have come before and will come after. One can certainly say that certain broad tendencies continue, but I could point out that certain tendencies reappear in my family - that doesn't mean that all the members of my family are the same person. Rand shares similarities with LTT, but that is not enough to make him LTT. The soul says nothing at all about two people being the same person. Each incarnation is a new person, it just so happens that in this case a new incarnation has been... corrupted by the old. And as for the memories, the Mat example has been put forward. He is not those people, although he has their memories. What of Birgitte - she has lost memories. Does that mean she is no longer those people?

 

Unless the tittle was specifically stripped from him by tower law then yes he does hold it, even if he does not wield the authority.

Show me the chapter where Rand - not LTT, Rand - was raised to the shawl, and I will grant you he has a right to call himself Rand Sedai.

 

Upon death the title of Aes Sedai and the First Among Servants would obviously become void, with no reason to formally declare it. Obviously. So obvious in fact that you would not write any law to specify it, but as of Egwene's raising to the Amyrlin Seat what is obvious is not relevant, only what can be interpreted through some serious mental gymnastics. Therefore, provided the Aes Sedai of old didn't specify that a person lost their titles upon death, Rand is still Aes Sedai and the First Among Servants.

I disagree - if the President of the US died, and then came back to life twenty years later then his term of office would have expired. He would simply be an ex-President. So it is with the title First Among Servants. As for AS, LTT died. He didn't return to life, therefore the point is moot. He is not here to claim the title, he is dead, bereft of life he rests in peace, he's shuffled off his mortal coil and gone to join the choir eternal, he'd be pushing up daisies if he wasn't nailed to his perch, he is an ex-Aes Sedai.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

To those who are still arguing over whether LTT and Rand are the same person, stop ignoring this quote that Suttree posted!

 

Incarnations of the same soul, diff people. Memories don't change that.

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease.

 

Case closed.

[MasterAblar]

So if LTT had say, possesed Rand instead, would Rand be considered LTT then? After all that's left of Rand would be his body, everything else would be LTT. It would be exactly the same case as arangar and osangar, who we consider to be Balthamel and Aginor, only in different bodies.

 

So should it be different if Rand accepts LTT instead of being possesed by him? If he accepts him they essentialy merge and become one. It's the exact same result except that Rand keeps his personality as well. Are Arangar and Osangar not held accountable for the crimes they commited in their previous bodies? So why should Rand not be the same? He's certainly not just Rand anymore.

[Grandis]

To those who are still arguing over whether LTT and Rand are the same person, stop ignoring this quote that Suttree posted!

 

Incarnations of the same soul, diff people. Memories don't change that.

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease.

 

Case closed.

We're ignoring it because this obviously refers to a regular person, not someone with all their past memories.

 

/also, his lame sig.

[Guest PiotrekS]

As for AS, LTT died. He didn't return to life, therefore the point is moot. He is not here to claim the title, he is dead, bereft of life he rests in peace, he's shuffled off his mortal coil and gone to join the choir eternal, he'd be pushing up daisies if he wasn't nailed to his perch, he is an ex-Aes Sedai.

 

I love Monty Python, but you're still wrong

 

You'd be absolutely right in a world that is a little less WOT and a little more our world - all these arguments that he died and is dead, dead because he died, died so he isn't alive anymore - well, they don't really apply to a world where you can be reborn, step out of the World of Dreams (Birigitte) or return as a prophesied messiah... I think that if death was not final in similar way in our world, our laws and ways of thinking would be accordingly changed.

 

And the RJ's quote, although relevant for the bigger picture, doesn't apply to the DR (as Grandis pointed out).

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

So if LTT had say, possesed Rand instead, would Rand be considered LTT then? After all that's left of Rand would be his body, everything else would be LTT. It would be exactly the same case as arangar and osangar, who we consider to be Balthamel and Aginor, only in different bodies.

 

So should it be different if Rand accepts LTT instead of being possesed by him? If he accepts him they essentialy merge and become one. It's the exact same result except that Rand keeps his personality as well. Are Arangar and Osangar not held accountable for the crimes they commited in their previous bodies? So why should Rand not be the same? He's certainly not just Rand anymore.

 

This is NOT a case of someone possessing someone else. This is a case of people having the same soul.

[Seeker Matt]

To those who are still arguing over whether LTT and Rand are the same person, stop ignoring this quote that Suttree posted!

 

Incarnations of the same soul, diff people. Memories don't change that.

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

- Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease.

 

Case closed.

 

Perhaps's it is being ignored/not considered "case closed" because some feel that it is an inadequate judgement.

 

It comes down to what is Self/Being. I think that in VoG both Rand and LTT died (LTT again) and a new person was born.

[MasterAblar]

So if LTT had say, possesed Rand instead, would Rand be considered LTT then? After all that's left of Rand would be his body, everything else would be LTT. It would be exactly the same case as arangar and osangar, who we consider to be Balthamel and Aginor, only in different bodies.

 

So should it be different if Rand accepts LTT instead of being possesed by him? If he accepts him they essentialy merge and become one. It's the exact same result except that Rand keeps his personality as well. Are Arangar and Osangar not held accountable for the crimes they commited in their previous bodies? So why should Rand not be the same? He's certainly not just Rand anymore.

 

This is NOT a case of someone possessing someone else. This is a case of people having the same soul.

 

That's why I said if. However this is a case of someone clearly showing 2 distinct personalities. And these personalities have merged into one. There is nothing missing of LTT apart from his physical appearance. He's Rand+LTT in Rand's body, not just one or the other.

[Dream]

(Shame how such a fantastic discussion about LTT/Rand gets stuck in an Egwene thread.)

 

 

There are two conflicting accounts of whether LTT and Rand are the same.

 

First by RJ himself, who directly states that LTT and Rand have different personalities.

 

Second by Rand, who directly states on multiple occasion that he and LTT are one and the same. He even goes so far as to say, not only is he LTT but LTT has always been him as well.

 

Based solely on the books, there is ample proof that LTT and Rand are one and the same, and zero proof that they are separate.

 

However, it is difficult to get over what RJ said. There's no arguing that he may have misspoken or was misinterpreted. He's quite clear that this is the cosmology he intended.

 

While it may be true that the Rand who grew up in the Two Rivers was different from LTT, as of VoG he is clearly no longer farmer Rand. He now has lived 300 years as LTT and only 20 years as farmer Rand. Since RJ's assertion creates internal inconsistency within the books, my opinion is he was just plain wrong. Because sometimes he is.

[Kahsm]

(Shame how such a fantastic discussion about LTT/Rand gets stuck in an Egwene thread.)

 

 

There are two conflicting accounts of whether LTT and Rand are the same.

 

First by RJ himself, who directly states that LTT and Rand have different personalities.

 

Second by Rand, who directly states on multiple occasion that he and LTT are one and the same. He even goes so far as to say, not only is he LTT but LTT has always been him as well.

 

Based solely on the books, there is ample proof that LTT and Rand are one and the same, and zero proof that they are separate.

 

However, it is difficult to get over what RJ said. There's no arguing that he may have misspoken or was misinterpreted. He's quite clear that this is the cosmology he intended.

 

While it may be true that the Rand who grew up in the Two Rivers was different from LTT, as of VoG he is clearly no longer farmer Rand. He now has lived 300 years as LTT and only 20 years as farmer Rand. Since RJ's assertion creates internal inconsistency within the books, my opinion is he was just plain wrong. Because sometimes he is.

 

I still prefer to think Rand is a continuation of LTT. But they are different people. This accounts for both Rand's assertion in the books and RJ's outside the books.

 

Rand is refering not to the man, but the voice in his head. LTT is not only part of him, but always was him. Which is 100% true regarding the voice. But RJ's quote remains true that they are two different men with different personalities.

 

Rand may have lived a couple hundred years as LTT, but he was raised by Tam in the Two Rivers most recently, and all the people he knows now are Rand's acquaintances. I have no doubt that the new stuff tends to trump the older stuff. Rand post-enlightenment is still Rand because LTT didn't have Rand's new youth, even if Rand does have LTT's long-ago youth. If Rand was transformed into LTT post-enlightenment, then Min would regard him as a complete stranger in her boo's skin. She doesn't seem to, so I figure he's more the same than he is different when it comes to candid interactions.

[Mr Ares]

As for AS, LTT died. He didn't return to life, therefore the point is moot. He is not here to claim the title, he is dead, bereft of life he rests in peace, he's shuffled off his mortal coil and gone to join the choir eternal, he'd be pushing up daisies if he wasn't nailed to his perch, he is an ex-Aes Sedai.

I love Monty Python, but you're still wrong

 

You'd be absolutely right in a world that is a little less WOT and a little more our world - all these arguments that he died and is dead, dead because he died, died so he isn't alive anymore - well, they don't really apply to a world where you can be reborn, step out of the World of Dreams (Birigitte) or return as a prophesied messiah... I think that if death was not final in similar way in our world, our laws and ways of thinking would be accordingly changed.

Well, at least with regards to titles (whether Rand can be considered an AS), if people did accept the possibility of someone returning to life (and Semi indicates that past life voices would have been known of in the AoL - thus the Rand/LTT situation is not without precedent), then it's conceivable that there are rules governing whether or not a new incarnation can inherit the titles of the old.

 

 

(Shame how such a fantastic discussion about LTT/Rand gets stuck in an Egwene thread.)

The Egwene debate was getting boring, we needed to liven it up with something.

 

 

There are two conflicting accounts of whether LTT and Rand are the same.

 

First by RJ himself, who directly states that LTT and Rand have different personalities.

 

Second by Rand, who directly states on multiple occasion that he and LTT are one and the same. He even goes so far as to say, not only is he LTT but LTT has always been him as well.

I think it might be worth bearing in mind that Rand only expresses that opinion in the books RJ didn't write alone. Of course, the books do not provide conclusive evidence - it is ambiguous, a matter of interpretation. For example, was the voice in Rand's head the real LTT, or just a construct? If the latter, then it could be argued that LTT as a person never re-emerged, he was simply dead, and therefore the "not two people" in VoG was Rand and the construct, not Rand and LTT. (Which I'm sure many realists will enjoy using to prove that the constructionists haven't won that debate.) Further, we are denied the important evidence of Rand's viewpoint on the matter, only seeing him from the outside. He also describes LTT's memories as like a dream. I'd say the books so far are very far from conclusive on the matter of Rand and LTT being the same person. Now, I wouldn't necessarily take RJ's word alone, as he has been wrong before, but I would say that his is certainly a viable interpretation.

[Zentari]

Well, at least with regards to titles (whether Rand can be considered an AS), if people did accept the possibility of someone returning to life (and Semi indicates that past life voices would have been known of in the AoL - thus the Rand/LTT situation is not without precedent), then it's conceivable that there are rules governing whether or not a new incarnation can inherit the titles of the old.

True but so far we have not seen any of them,which raises the question of why ? Were they lost just like other things in the breaking or did the people of AoL fail to account for this ?

 

The first is understandable but the second is kind of an oversight.

 

The Egwene debate was getting boring, we needed to liven it up with something.

Haha, still it would be nice if it was in a separate thread.It seems such a waste.

 

 

I think it might be worth bearing in mind that Rand only expresses that opinion in the books RJ didn't write alone. Of course, the books do not provide conclusive evidence - it is ambiguous, a matter of interpretation. For example, was the voice in Rand's head the real LTT, or just a construct? If the latter, then it could be argued that LTT as a person never re-emerged, he was simply dead, and therefore the "not two people" in VoG was Rand and the construct, not Rand and LTT. (Which I'm sure many realists will enjoy using to prove that the constructionists haven't won that debate.) Further, we are denied the important evidence of Rand's viewpoint on the matter, only seeing him from the outside. He also describes LTT's memories as like a dream. I'd say the books so far are very far from conclusive on the matter of Rand and LTT being the same person. Now, I wouldn't necessarily take RJ's word alone, as he has been wrong before, but I would say that his is certainly a viable interpretation.

If I recall correctly , wasn't the issue of the whole dual personality of Rand's to be left in the dark ? Seem to recall Terez saying that RJ had left instructions to leave that up in the air.If that is so (and I remember correctly),then it seems this controversy will not be resolved.

[Dream]

I still prefer to think Rand is a continuation of LTT. But they are different people. This accounts for both Rand's assertion in the books and RJ's outside the books.

 

Rand is refering not to the man, but the voice in his head. LTT is not only part of him, but always was him. Which is 100% true regarding the voice. But RJ's quote remains true that they are two different men with different personalities.

 

Rand may have lived a couple hundred years as LTT, but he was raised by Tam in the Two Rivers most recently, and all the people he knows now are Rand's acquaintances. I have no doubt that the new stuff tends to trump the older stuff. Rand post-enlightenment is still Rand because LTT didn't have Rand's new youth, even if Rand does have LTT's long-ago youth. If Rand was transformed into LTT post-enlightenment, then Min would regard him as a complete stranger in her boo's skin. She doesn't seem to, so I figure he's more the same than he is different when it comes to candid interactions.

Rand being a continuation of LTT is exactly how I see it as well. Specifically: LTT dies and is reborn. He is named Rand and is raised as a sheepherder by Tam. He regains his memories.

 

Was the voice in Rand's head LTT? Yes. Was the voice in Rand's head his own voice? Yes. Because Rand is LTT.

 

So the person Min falls in love with is the same core person she sees before her now. But there is a noticeable difference between a young LTT with no recollection of his past life and a mature 320+ year old LTT.

 

To me (and Rand), Rand and LTT are two names to the same person. In my mind, I use them interchangeably. Rand is over 300 years old. Rand killed Ilyenna. Everything that happened to LTT and everything that LTT cared about, is everything that happened to Rand and everything that Rand cares about, and vice versa.

 

This is in contrast to what RJ stated, that 1) Rand and LTT have different personalities and 2) you are an entirely separate person when reborn.

 

As to whether Rand is more Rand than LTT because LTT was a lifetime ago, I disagree. Rand is just a "fresher" experience. I think we see a bit of it in the epilog of ToM. Rand doesn't give a rats ass about one of the Forsaken. LTT, however, still cares about Meirin. Who he grew up with.

 

 

 

(Shame how such a fantastic discussion about LTT/Rand gets stuck in an Egwene thread.)

The Egwene debate was getting boring, we needed to liven it up with something.

Which is why I normally avoid Egwene threads like the plague.

 

 

I think it might be worth bearing in mind that Rand only expresses that opinion in the books RJ didn't write alone.

I am very aware of this fact. I really hope RJ left sufficient notes that Brandon didn't have to "fill in holes" on this subject. That this is just a case of Brandon being overly blunt (relative to RJ's style).

 

 

Of course, the books do not provide conclusive evidence - it is ambiguous, a matter of interpretation. For example, was the voice in Rand's head the real LTT, or just a construct? If the latter, then it could be argued that LTT as a person never re-emerged, he was simply dead, and therefore the "not two people" in VoG was Rand and the construct, not Rand and LTT. (Which I'm sure many realists will enjoy using to prove that the constructionists haven't won that debate.) Further, we are denied the important evidence of Rand's viewpoint on the matter, only seeing him from the outside. He also describes LTT's memories as like a dream. I'd say the books so far are very far from conclusive on the matter of Rand and LTT being the same person. Now, I wouldn't necessarily take RJ's word alone, as he has been wrong before, but I would say that his is certainly a viable interpretation.

It's as conclusive as you can get without, say, stating it in the glossary. It's possible to wiggle out of it (maybe Rand is just pretending? that makes no sense to me), but so far, within the books everything points to them being one and the same. Outside the books...beh.

 

 

Edit:

If I recall correctly , wasn't the issue of the whole dual personality of Rand's to be left in the dark ? Seem to recall Terez saying that RJ had left instructions to leave that up in the air.If that is so (and I remember correctly),then it seems this controversy will not be resolved.

I think the instruction was to not answer that question directly. Not that he couldn't touch upon the subject in his writings. Of course, people tend to interpret what he writes differently so we may never come to a consensus.

[Randommer]

I think it helps to consider the LTT reintegration thing like this:

Imagine you were a person who'd had a really hard life and ended up doing some crappy things. Now imagine you got hit on the head and could remember none of it and had no idea about any of your old life.

You start a new life and this one is way more ordinary and you're happy. You develop a new outlook becuase of your new situation.

Would you think that made you a different person? It would really depend on your definition of 'person'.

 

Now imagine your old life catches up with you and for whatever reason you start to remember things. You don't want to admit to having done such bad things and don't accept the memories, and the different outlook that would go with them, as your own. But eventually you have to.

 

What would you end up with? Probably something similar to Rand in ToM - a person who keeps a lot of the more positive outlook of their recent years but encorporates a lot of the wisdom they would have gained from such hard times. Imo, anyway.

 

To me, this is exactly what the Rand/LTT situation is. They've always been the same person, and each was simply an example of how that person reacted and grew in different situations. People go through this process in their regular lives anyway.

[Suttree]

Then what do you make of the souls bound to the horn? It's one linear time for them, no breaks in between, no holes. How do you define that? Is Birgitte not the same person in flesh as she was in TAR?

 

So I was doing a reread of ToM last night and came across this in relation to Birgitte. She very clearly references different "lives" and then says...

 

ToM "The End of a Legend"

What she could draw from her previous lives now was a boon, yes, but she had no right to those memories

 

&

She'd been forced into this life, shoving other threads aside, taking an unexpected place. The Pattern was trying to weave her in. What would happen when all the memories faded? Would she remember waking up as an adult with no history?

 

So as the Pattern weaves her in the memories fade. She very clearly thinks she has no right to them in this life. Mr. Ares brought up a great question that no one has touched. What of Birgitte's lost memories? Does she cease to be those people?

 

We're ignoring it because this obviously refers to a regular person, not someone with all their past memories.

 

/also, his lame sig.

 

 

As for the sig are you referring to to how I ended my post w/case closed? The cosmology is the same for everyone, it doesn't change because of memories. RJ was very clear on diff incarnations of the same soul.

 

If you were talking about my actual sig not the post I feel sorry for you. Read Blood Meridian and then come back and tell me how lame his writing is...

[Kahsm]

It's as conclusive as you can get without, say, stating it in the glossary. It's possible to wiggle out of it (maybe Rand is just pretending? that makes no sense to me), but so far, within the books everything points to them being one and the same. Outside the books...beh.

 

The book is written entirely from multiple first persons PoVs. What Rand says vocally, and in his head, is entirely his own perspective, and by no means makes it true. This needs to be remembered for a lot of arguments made here.

 

Yes Rand feels he's the same person, that doesn't make it an undeniable fact. So it's not "wiggling" out of anything, and it doesn't need to be "pretending". It could simply be that Rand's perspective is not the truth, or not the whole of the truth. Since as I explained, from his perspective, speaking of the memories in his head only, he's right, they are not separate and never were. But the original LTT is very much separate.

 

Rand is his own person, an individual of his own right who happens to be a continuation of a previous person. They do have different personalities, despite having overlapping experiences and memories, but Rand still loves Min (and presumably Elyane and Avi) and doesn't seem to pine for Ilyena. We've seen no evidence of the guilt that LTT felt that made him kill himself in the way that he did. So clearly Rand still distances some of LTT's actions from his own.

[Dream]

The book is written entirely from multiple first persons PoVs. What Rand says vocally, and in his head, is entirely his own perspective, and by no means makes it true. This needs to be remembered for a lot of arguments made here.

 

Yes Rand feels he's the same person, that doesn't make it an undeniable fact. So it's not "wiggling" out of anything, and it doesn't need to be "pretending". It could simply be that Rand's perspective is not the truth, or not the whole of the truth. Since as I explained, from his perspective, speaking of the memories in his head only, he's right, they are not separate and never were. But the original LTT is very much separate.

We have to assume that most of the time characters will not lie to themselves. Because if we can't make that assumption, then we can't believe anything we read for, as you said, the books are written entirely from multiple first person POVs.

 

So when Rand thinks, “I am LTT,” he really does. Now if Rand wasn’t familiar with LTT, there might be a case that he’s just wrong. But Rand has intimate knowledge of LTT, including his thoughts and his emotions. If Rand really believes he is LTT, then there is no authority within the books to suggest otherwise. It just makes no sense that he would be wrong about it. The alternative is that he is simply pretending. Which doesn't make much sense either.

 

And if "wiggling" is not the appropriate term, then how about "grossly misleading"?

 

 

Rand is his own person, an individual of his own right who happens to be a continuation of a previous person. They do have different personalities, despite having overlapping experiences and memories, but Rand still loves Min (and presumably Elyane and Avi) and doesn't seem to pine for Ilyena. We've seen no evidence of the guilt that LTT felt that made him kill himself in the way that he did. So clearly Rand still distances some of LTT's actions from his own.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were part of the LTT voice is real crowd. As I am of the "contruct" crowd, we are approaching this issue from fundamentally different perspectives. I'm arguing about apples while you're arguing about oranges. I'm not too keen on going into real vs contruct (again) so I guess we'll just keep our own opinions.

[Jon Paul]

I'm not too keen on going into real vs contruct (again) so I guess we'll just keep our own opinions.

 

Do people still debate that? Gosh what's the date today, 26th of October 2009?

[Kahsm]

Rand is his own person, an individual of his own right who happens to be a continuation of a previous person. They do have different personalities, despite having overlapping experiences and memories, but Rand still loves Min (and presumably Elyane and Avi) and doesn't seem to pine for Ilyena. We've seen no evidence of the guilt that LTT felt that made him kill himself in the way that he did. So clearly Rand still distances some of LTT's actions from his own.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were part of the LTT voice is real crowd. As I am of the "contruct" crowd, we are approaching this issue from fundamentally different perspectives. I'm arguing about apples while you're arguing about oranges. I'm not too keen on going into real vs contruct (again) so I guess we'll just keep our own opinions.

 

The voices in his head are not real. I never said they were. But if Rand _IS_ LTT and truly believes there was no other version of the man, that he is the direct and only continuation of the same person, as you suggest, then Rand would still feel just as strongly about what would be his kinslaying, and likely still be tormented, if not suicidal, about it. He doesn't. Clearly Rand at least thinks "That wasn't me, that was the former me". Which means despite what they share, they are two different people. One that's long dead, and Rand, with the recovered memories of when another person used his soul.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

lews therin died for his sins. he killed himself and still he did not correct the breaking he helped set in motion, and the murder of all those he loved. but he willingly died for his own sins. he didn't go into stasis to be revived. to say that he is still alive is to deny the meaning of his death.

 

rand says a lot of things that are wrong. his statements cannot be taken at face value. he is not LTT, though he carries the dragon's soul, and his memories. he may yet elevate that soul through his own actions and repair some of the damage it cause in a past transmigration.

 

but it will be rand doing this. he was born 20ish years ago and is burdened with the knowledge of past transmigrations, but he is rand. even rand sedai if you choose to accept his claim. but he's not lews therin kinslayer.

 

and RJ's statement that the soul is not the person speaks fairly clearly to the point, even in the WOT universe.

[Mr Ares]

Well, at least with regards to titles (whether Rand can be considered an AS), if people did accept the possibility of someone returning to life (and Semi indicates that past life voices would have been known of in the AoL - thus the Rand/LTT situation is not without precedent), then it's conceivable that there are rules governing whether or not a new incarnation can inherit the titles of the old.

True but so far we have not seen any of them, which raises the question of why?

No reason to.

 

I think it might be worth bearing in mind that Rand only expresses that opinion in the books RJ didn't write alone. Of course, the books do not provide conclusive evidence - it is ambiguous, a matter of interpretation. For example, was the voice in Rand's head the real LTT, or just a construct? If the latter, then it could be argued that LTT as a person never re-emerged, he was simply dead, and therefore the "not two people" in VoG was Rand and the construct, not Rand and LTT. (Which I'm sure many realists will enjoy using to prove that the constructionists haven't won that debate.) Further, we are denied the important evidence of Rand's viewpoint on the matter, only seeing him from the outside. He also describes LTT's memories as like a dream. I'd say the books so far are very far from conclusive on the matter of Rand and LTT being the same person. Now, I wouldn't necessarily take RJ's word alone, as he has been wrong before, but I would say that his is certainly a viable interpretation.

If I recall correctly , wasn't the issue of the whole dual personality of Rand's to be left in the dark ? Seem to recall Terez saying that RJ had left instructions to leave that up in the air.If that is so (and I remember correctly),then it seems this controversy will not be resolved.

Yes, this is a "no answer" thing - we're free to endlessly debate the ambiguous evidence to whatever conclusion we feel we can support.

 

 

Of course, the books do not provide conclusive evidence - it is ambiguous, a matter of interpretation. For example, was the voice in Rand's head the real LTT, or just a construct? If the latter, then it could be argued that LTT as a person never re-emerged, he was simply dead, and therefore the "not two people" in VoG was Rand and the construct, not Rand and LTT. (Which I'm sure many realists will enjoy using to prove that the constructionists haven't won that debate.) Further, we are denied the important evidence of Rand's viewpoint on the matter, only seeing him from the outside. He also describes LTT's memories as like a dream. I'd say the books so far are very far from conclusive on the matter of Rand and LTT being the same person. Now, I wouldn't necessarily take RJ's word alone, as he has been wrong before, but I would say that his is certainly a viable interpretation.

It's as conclusive as you can get without, say, stating it in the glossary. It's possible to wiggle out of it (maybe Rand is just pretending? that makes no sense to me), but so far, within the books everything points to them being one and the same. Outside the books...beh.

Conclusive, you say? Hardly, the evidence of the books can be argued in multiple ways. Can you show that my lines of reason are invalid? And remember, Rand has a certain interpretation of things. That interpretation is not necessarily accurate. Further, we do not see his perspective on the matter directly, only him explaining to other people his interpretation of what happened. Even those explanations are not clear cut.

 

 

The book is written entirely from multiple first persons PoVs. What Rand says vocally, and in his head, is entirely his own perspective, and by no means makes it true. This needs to be remembered for a lot of arguments made here.

 

Yes Rand feels he's the same person, that doesn't make it an undeniable fact. So it's not "wiggling" out of anything, and it doesn't need to be "pretending". It could simply be that Rand's perspective is not the truth, or not the whole of the truth. Since as I explained, from his perspective, speaking of the memories in his head only, he's right, they are not separate and never were. But the original LTT is very much separate.

We have to assume that most of the time characters will not lie to themselves. Because if we can't make that assumption, then we can't believe anything we read for, as you said, the books are written entirely from multiple first person POVs.

 

So when Rand thinks, “I am LTT,” he really does.

The books are third person, not first. Also, Rand never thinks he is LTT in TOM, nor in the first 11 books, nor in most of TGS. So you have the highly ambiguous VoG as your sole evidence - which goes back to a point I already made: that if LTT was a construct it could be argued that Rand and the construct are one man, and were never two, but that chapter thus says nothing at all about the real LTT, because he died and never came back - that wasn't his voice. You say if Rand wasn't familiar with LTT, but surely the construct argument is that he isn't, he's familiar with a construct. Also, are you aware of the concept of the unreliable narrator?

 

I'm not too keen on going into real vs contruct (again) so I guess we'll just keep our own opinions.

Do people still debate that? Gosh what's the date today, 26th of October 2009?

Well, it's just as open to debate as it ever was. Besides, Asmo was worse.

 

 

Why should he show [Egwene] any more respect that he shows Taim and the balck tower. The Aes Sedai are at the same level as the Ash'man and the Dragon is above both of them.

Hey, stop trying to derail a perfectly good Rand/LTT discussion into an Egwene one! Also, Rand is head of the Asha'man, therefore Taim is his subordinate. Egwene is a foreign Head of State, and thus his equal.

[FarShainMael]

(Shame how such a fantastic discussion about LTT/Rand gets stuck in an Egwene thread.)

 

I asked majsju to split it off, which he did (thanks!) - all 4 pages of it!