Perrin's Trial

[rcfleming4]

They killed Hooper. Bastards deserved it.

 

I know that in the real world you can't kill someone for harming/killing your dog or cat etc.

 

However in the WoT world wolves are sentient, sapient beings who have a clear language, thoughts, feelings, etc. They seem in their own way as intelligent as some people and should be given 'personhood'. In this world, it's a fact that wolves have souls just like humans do. And they all seem to be inherently opposed to the Shadow. A pack of wolves will sacrifice all of their members to kill Shadowspawn.

 

So . . . from Perrin's (and the reader's) perspective, Hopper (a person) was killed by the Whitecloaks. Then Perrin, maybe in fear of his life (as the Whitecloaks just killed someone in front of him) lashed out and killed someone himself.

 

If I knew the above facts I wouldn't convict Perrin. I don't think he'd be convicted in world either if everyone knew what Perrin did about wolves.

[David Selig]

But Hopper attacked the Whitecloacks first, they killed him in self-defence.

[rcfleming4]

But Hopper attacked the Whitecloacks first, they killed him in self-defence.

 

True, but Perrin attacked after seeing his new buddy get killed. He went a little crazy.

 

Of course, I'm prejudiced against the Whitecloaks anyway and think of them as an evil (though not shadow related) organization. But maybe that's just me.

[Orderofolde]

It's a good thing that no one knew it was him that released Gaul and killed those Whitecloaks too.

[EvilSocrates]

Actually, he might have an insanity defense. The test for insanity varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but a common one holds that a defendant is not guilty if he had a mental disease or defect that caused him to be unable to control his actions or conform his conduct to the law. Perrin has a good case for that, if you count being possessed by wolves a mental disease or defect. I would, because what we are really getting at with that definition is the identifying people who do not have normally functioning brains, around which the laws and expectations of society are designed.

[jsbrads]

If a man is minding his own business and a bunch of rabid people (well-known info on WC) show up, the incidental fact that they planned on kidnapping him first and only killing him a month later cannot be considered evidence against him. He was acting in self-defense.

 

As to the Gaul incident, that is far more complex. The attack on Gaul and his friend was unwarranted. The later imprisoning of him was unjustified. This of course puts all subsequent actions in a gray light. Illegal, but justified. Killing whitecloaks, again not on soil in which they have any domain may perhaps have been and illegal killing, such that the crown of that country could have stated categorically not to involve themselves in, or it could be again self-defense as, regardless of the illegality of the justified act, in this case it is much clearer that the WC attacked Perrin and Gaul...

 

should we consider pessimistically that Gaul was an invader, and the imprisonment was thus justified, Perrin is an enemy combatant. As a combatant, and due to Geneva rules, he is entitled to imprisonment until end of hostilities, to then be returned to home country.

[buckeyebull64]

I gotta say Perrin can't be guilty. and Hopper had nothing to do with it. it's all about an illegal army in other's territory, making it an invasion. Perrin was a legal citizen held against his will, under threat of force, by hostile, professional soldiers. Any use of force to escape that situation is justified.

 

Is it just me, or was that scene one of the most poorly written in the series? Why too much build up for a letdown of a trial. There seemed a lot of insistance on proper decorum...and not enough proper decorum. Seemed ad-libbed and sloppy.

Edited July 29, 2011 by buckeyebull64

[ironisles]

They killed Hooper. Bastards deserved it.

 

I bet Quint was reallly pissed...

[rageofwar1978]

a reasonable assumption of imminent harm is not basis for use of deadly force. sadly in the US most states have made even defending yourself illegal. by the letter of the law regardless of jurisdiction perrins best choice would have been surrender if only because it might have saved some hassle down the line. still would have required rescue but the treatment might have been a bit better.

[UncleButcher1980]

They killed Hooper. Bastards deserved it.

 

I bet Quint was reallly pissed...

 

I....don't know what that is.

[Arkane101]

If im not mistaken, with the whole Hopper attacked first thing, I believe the whitecloaks attacked the wolves as they were trying to escape.

[Durinax]

If im not mistaken, with the whole Hopper attacked first thing, I believe the whitecloaks attacked the wolves as they were trying to escape.

wolves attacked first, the WC started patrols to find out who else was in the area after finding elyas fire, then the wolves started biting at teh horses legs in an effort to scare them back to the fire. In either case it is inadmissable due to wolves being considered animals by general consensus

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

does perrin think it was murder?

[plague fiend]

Look, you probably can't walk up to Galad and convince him that all Whitecloaks are rabid dogs that need to be put down.

But with Morgase he could without any equivocation of circumstances, just said "I was in the wilderness and I saw whitecloaks, I tried to hide and they pursued me until they found me (illegal behavior on their part in Andor) and they raised their lances and commanded me (an Andoran citizen) to exit at lance point. I killed them in self defense. They would have taken me without cause believing that I am DF, their command was behavior preliminary to arrest, their arrest would result in only one outcome that they would assume I am a DF. That conclusion on their part would result in my torture and eventual death, so I was responding to an imminent threat on my life.

 

Perrin picked a side. In people's eyes may be he's guilty of murder. In the eye's of the wolves he is innocent. I think he did the right thing.

[ironisles]

I bet Quint was reallly pissed...

 

I....don't know what that is.

 

Watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZF9lBGQkfw&feature=related

Edited July 31, 2011 by Rulius

[jsbrads]

a reasonable assumption of imminent harm is not basis for use of deadly force. sadly in the US most states have made even defending yourself illegal. by the letter of the law regardless of jurisdiction perrins best choice would have been surrender if only because it might have saved some hassle down the line. still would have required rescue but the treatment might have been a bit better.

 

I'm not sure what does qualify as a reasonable assumption of imminent harm, but this is literally the equivalent of a black man finding himself surrounded by Klu Klux Klan members and being prosecuted for striking out with a hand tool against a group armed with fire arms...

[Durinax]

how is perrins situation literally the equivialent of a black man being surrounded by KKK members? your comparison makes no sense. and even though I am white I find it in very poor taste to make such a comparison

[Zentari]

how is perrins situation literally the equivialent of a black man being surrounded by KKK members?

Both are extremist groups prone to resorting to violence for their ideologies,which are downright horrid themselves.Oh, not originally for the WC, but in the end it amounted to catch -> torture -> kill.

[Durinax]

how is perrins situation literally the equivialent of a black man being surrounded by KKK members?

Both are extremist groups prone to resorting to violence for their ideologies,which are downright horrid themselves.Oh, not originally for the WC, but in the end it amounted to catch -> torture -> kill.

except perrin does not know such a thing at the time of the murder. Plus perrin does not have his golden eyes which mark him out to teh WC that he is shadowspawn, thus they likely would not have hurt him unless he did waht he did.

 

For all perrin knew the WC's are a police force, hunting bandits in the area

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

perrin didn't know anything at the time. he was in a berserker wolf fury. so lets' say temporary insanity and settle out of court?

[Zentari]

how is perrins situation literally the equivialent of a black man being surrounded by KKK members?

Both are extremist groups prone to resorting to violence for their ideologies,which are downright horrid themselves.Oh, not originally for the WC, but in the end it amounted to catch -> torture -> kill.

except perrin does not know such a thing at the time of the murder. Plus perrin does not have his golden eyes which mark him out to teh WC that he is shadowspawn, thus they likely would not have hurt him unless he did waht he did.

You are assuming rational reason from a group that doesn't have one.It's like the inquisition, they decide you are a DF, you burn.

[Durinax]

how is perrins situation literally the equivialent of a black man being surrounded by KKK members?

Both are extremist groups prone to resorting to violence for their ideologies,which are downright horrid themselves.Oh, not originally for the WC, but in the end it amounted to catch -> torture -> kill.

except perrin does not know such a thing at the time of the murder. Plus perrin does not have his golden eyes which mark him out to teh WC that he is shadowspawn, thus they likely would not have hurt him unless he did waht he did.

You are assuming rational reason from a group that doesn't have one.It's like the inquisition, they decide you are a DF, you burn.

no I am saying that. I am saying that there was nothing to mark him as anything but a youth, sure he was in an odd location, but he would have been taken to bornhald who we where shown was a reasonable man

[UncleButcher1980]

I bet Quint was reallly pissed...

 

I....don't know what that is.

 

Watch

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

 

 

 

Well that was very entertaining but it's only left me more confused! I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here but I don't know what it is.

[ironisles]

I bet Quint was reallly pissed...

 

I....don't know what that is.

 

Watch

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

 

 

 

Well that was very entertaining but it's only left me more confused! I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here but I don't know what it is.

 

Hooper (Richard Dreyfuss) is the guy with glasses who is tying the barrels. Quint (Robert Shaw)is the guy with the harpoon gun.

I was just making a small joke about Hooper instead of Hopper is all.

[EvilSocrates]

I feel like I posted this before, but I don't see it here so, here goes.

 

Perrin has a strong insanity defense, so long as being a wolf-brother counts as a "mental disease or defect," and based on the general case-law on that term, it would (it's an actual, physical difference between Perrin's brain and a normal brain that affects his ability to function in society). The majority (and most stringent) insanity defense in the US only requires that the defendant had a mental disease or defect that caused him to 1) be unable to know what he was doing or 2) be unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of his conduct.

 

If I remember correctly, Perrin was overcome with a wolfbrother induced berserker rage, wherein he was not conscious of his actions, and could not appreciate that they were wrong (or even what they were). Many jurisdictions have an even more lenient standard, which would allow Perrin to be acquitted if he had an "irresistible impulse" to chop people up with his ax, which seems likely here also.

 

Of course, a successful insanity defense means that he would have be institutionalized until he was no longer a threat to himself or others, which seems a just result in this case, for sure. Then again, Andor is a primitive, foolish place, so we cannot expect too much of their stupid monarchy based legal system.