The Forsaken

[True Source Creator]

I've not been here for a while, and I don't know if there is a thread dedicated to discussing the Forsaken, but if there is, can someone please bump it for me?

 

Anyways, I just love the Forsaken. They're my favorite characters, and Robert Jordan alls keeps me in the dark waiting for more about them. I'm only up to Knife of Dreams right now, so I can only discuss their characters as far as that book, but I loved the chapter "At the Gardens", chapter 3 of the book Knife of Dreams. Also, the events at the end of "Winter's Heart" were amazing.

 

There's so many interesting things about the Forsaken. But anyways, I just want to know who your favorite Forsaken is. My rankings:

 

1. Lanfear (She's beautiful, seductive, intelligent, and very powerful. I don't like her as much as Cyndane, probably because she seems too much of a puppet, but I loved this comment by Aran'gar (paraphrasing), "She [Aran'gar] tried touching Cyndane and the woman threatened to rip her hand off.")

 

2. Mesaana (I think I love this character because of the way Jordan describes her. Her Illusion is wonderful. The silver lips and the voice of chimes are enchanting. Plus, she heads the Black Ajah and seems to have embedded herself deep within the White Tower. As I'm only on Knife of Dreams, I don't know what happens to her yet other than her "incident" with Moridin and Shadar Haran.)

 

3. Ishamael/Moridin (As Ba'alzamon, he masqueraded around as the Dark One himself and his eyes of fire epitomized his evilness. Now he's Nae'blis, so he's the most powerful Forsaken, and he also seems overly possessed with the True Source, as described by the black saa in his eyes.)

 

 

4. Semirhage (Thus far, she has barely been in the books, but I kind of like that about her. She keeps isolated. But I loved her entrance in KoD. She comes to Suroth with an Illusion of flames and her voice rings out like funeral gongs. She's also an expert Healer, only none of the Forsaken trust her there, and in contrast to Lanfear, she wears black. I like her secrecy and her vileness toward the Seanchan royal family, from what I garner of her encounter with Suroth.)

 

5. Graendal (I know she gets more important later...I kind of spoiled myself by accident...but so far she hasn't been there much since Sammael died. But I do admire her. I guess I have a thing for liking the female Forsaken the most. Graendal is beautiful and she reflects on the past when she chooses the setting of the Gardens in KoD. And she's pretty lustful.)

 

6. Demandred (He keeps to himself, too, or as far as the books have gone so far. The most I remember seeing him was in Lord of Chaos when he aspires to be Nae'blis. I think he's trying the hardest still. I like his mystery, like Mesaana and Semirhage, his two closest companions among the Forsaken)

 

7. Moghedian (Described as spider-like in her ability to set webs in political matters, Moghedian is quite the backstabber. You have to admire that about someone so evil as one of the Forsaken. She's knocked down a bit on my list of Most Awesome Forsaken because of her "enslavement" to Moridin via Mindtrap.)

 

8. Aran'gar/Balthamael (While Balthamael was only briefly featured, and as an old man at that, Aran'gar is quite seductive and a dangerous one to meddle with...well, aren't they all? I like how he/she uses her/his sexual prowess and, in Winter's Heart, shocks the Asha'man when she seizes saidin and not saidar.)

 

9. Rahvin (He died off after The Fires of Heaven, but he was a good opponent in that book, and he did drive Morgase out of Caemlyn, setting the stage for the succession of Elayne over the next few books.)

 

10. Sammael (Sammael was an alright villain, but not particularly one of my favorites among the Forsaken. He was smart in trying to avoid Rand until the other Forsaken were taken care of so that he could become Nae'blis. The talk Moridin gives in KoD about Sammael supposedly being back and leading Trollocs into the Waygates once again gives me something to ponder, and the attack on the manor house seems like it was driven by those Trollocs, but I don't know if it's Sammael reincarnated or someone else...perhaps Demandred.)

 

11. Osan'gar/Aginor (He was kind of on the side and even thought it would be ironic if he killed Rand at Shadar Logoth in Winter's Heart, but he was good with creating the Trollocs, Mydraaul, and other creatures of the Shadow.)

 

12. Asmodean (He was a good character because he showed something none of the other Forsaken did: compassion. Of course, he was cut off from the Dark One, so he probably had nothing else to turn to than Rand. I have a feeling it was Shadar Haran that visited him at the end of Fires of Heaven, or perhaps Moridin, and he is on a mindtrap. I remember Moridin had a few Mindtraps around his neck when Moghedian was summoned to him, so maybe one of them is Asmodean's. But if so, where is he, because Balthamael and Aginor had already appeared as the other two. I look forward to, hopefully, finding out what happened to him. I figure he's just dead, but maybe there's something else)

 

13. Be'lal (Lamest of them all. I don't know. He just wasn't of any importance to me. He had a very brief appearance in The Dragon Reborn, and I think he died by balefire. He seemed negligible.)

[WhiskyJack]

The dead ones.

[Southpaw89]

hmm I actually like them all. I'd say Moridin and Demandred are most interesting though.

[Barid Bel Medar]

mine in order.

 

Demandred

Lanfear

Moridin

Semirhage

Graendal

Mesaana

Rhavin

Aginor

Asmodean

Sammael

Bathamael

Be'lal

 

 

I am sick of people who think the forsaken are useless. Foolish thing really.

 

Look at the state of the world. All that chaos has been caused by the Forsaken.

 

They were not meant to go and fight Rand and kill as many as they could. They were out to create as much chaos in the world, preserving their own strength for the LB.

 

Anyone wonder WHY there were no trollocs around in the middle of the series? WHY all 13 didnt just go attack Rand and be done with it, or send millions of trollocs to kill them?

 

Because that wasnt their plan. "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" says it all.

 

If you are fighting a man in full steel plate, sure you could go at him with all your strength, but you would have a hard time about it, and get some serious injuries.

 

The smartest thing to do is take his armor away piece by piece, let him slash at you until he tires, then go in for the kill.

 

Basically, sure, the Forasken havent yet killed many or destroy whole cities, but they were not supposed to. Turn the world against each other so they use all their resources fighting each other, and uniting once again. Then strike.

 

And even alot of Forasken deaths have been by chance or suprise. Aginor and Balthamael lost fair enough.

Ishamael also got killed fair enough, though really, he was totally insane and toying with Rand.

 

Be'lal got suprise balefired from behind. Hardly anything he could do about it.

 

Rhavin would have beat Rand if Nynaeve hadnt been there to burn his eyes out.

 

Asmodean... well he doesnt even count much, but he was suprised by his killer. And Lanfear trapped him to help Rand.

 

Lanfear would have beat down Rand if Moiraine hadnt suprised her.

 

Sammael got eaten by Mashadar, suprise attack again.

 

Aginor 2: He got blasted away, another suprise attack.

 

I will be safe and not talk about KoD, but for those who have, you know the luck that was involved in a certain scenario.

[JKN-SW]

The dead ones.

Agreed!

[sandoz12]

My favourite has been Asmodean and I really wish he wasn't killed when he was, in face I wish he weren't killed at all. I think it would have been interesting to have him around and continue to teach Rand. In time I think he would have fully pledged his heart and soul to Rand as he saw it the only way out.

 

The viewpoints from him would have been fascinating as Rand went through his various ups and downs (to avoid spoilers won't go into any details) but I just think it would have been an interesting way to watch Rand through his eyes.

 

I also think he could still have taught Rand a lot more plus would have been interesting if he picked up on the voice of LTT in Rand's head and how he would've reacted to that.

[Gordar]

I only like Ishamael/Moridin. Unlike the other forsaken, who do everything for personal gain & power. I think it's already been mention before KoD why he joined the DO.

 

But is Ishamael wrong? What do we know about the wheel & pattern? How much freedom does one have to change the future? I admit, you have control over small details, as long as it doesn't affect the pattern too much, but you probably can't change the bigger picture.

 

What do we know about the ages of the wheel? We've seen what Aviendha has seen (I hope this doesn't spoil too much for you, True Source Creator), we know the 1st age (since we're living it), we know titbits of the 2nd age (at least how it ended) and we know the 3rd age.

 

I won't tell what Aviendha has seen, but anyone who has read the ToM knows what I'm talking about.

 

The first age is our own age. People being enslaved, killed because they don't believe the same things as others, airplanes flying into buildings, children starving because there's not enough food or because their parents cannot afford it, depletion of our natural resources, etc. If you think about it, it's not such a good place, unless you live in the west (USA or one of the Western European countries).

 

The 2nd age might be nice, but we all know how it ends (with the bore being drilled & the DO who starts influencing the world). Besides, who influences Mierin to create the bore anyway? The DO isn't free yet. This means there's no evil, no lust for power, jealousy, etc. yet. This leaves only 1 option, the pattern itself influenced Mierin to create the bore... This is also quite logical, because if the bore hadn't been created, the 3rd age, the next spoke in the wheel of time, couldn't have started.

 

What do we see in the 3rd age? Hunger, war, slavery and all the other things you see in the 1st age, except that they use less advanced weaponry and tools.

 

If we'd actually learn something from it and managed to prevent it from happening again, if humanity actually managed to move on, then all of this would be acceptable. But sadly, this is not the case. The wheel of time is a 7 spoked wheel, constantly repeating itself over and over and over again.

 

In essence, humans are preprogrammed automatons, effectively doing what the pattern wants them to do.

 

Ishamael doesn't agree with this & wants to end it all, prefering to end all life forever, including his own, to having to suffer another spin of the wheel. I'm not even sure if he was 'evil' when he joined the DO. Maybe he saw the DO as the lesser of two evils...

 

The other forsaken are merely fools who believe the lies the DO has told them. Powerful fools, but still fools.

[True Source Creator]

I agree with Barid. I don't recall any instance, other than in Winter's Heart, when the Forsaken all go at Rand at once, and they only did there because they had to. Even there, some of them were skeptical. Moghedian, for instance, didn't want to go in and just hoped the others would kill themselves. Mesaana didn't even show up. I don't remember anything about Semirhage either, but she may have been there. And to be fair, their failure was totally accountable because of the bonds between Aes Sedai and Asha'man and the many angreal and ter'angreal being used. I agree that the Choedan Kal scene should have extended more than one chapter, but I did love it for what it was.

 

For the most part, the Forsaken have kept to themselves. They don't often seem foolish enough to attack Rand, especially after Ishamael first dies. Ishamael kept attacking Rand in TEotW, TGH, and lastly TDR, but as Moridin he seems smarter about it, and I think he was just toying with Rand anyways. Aginor and Balthamael were just shot out of the Bore and only died because of the Eye of the World and its pool of untainted saidin that Rand was able to channel, and Balthamael's overconfidence as he tries raping Nynaeve.

 

Be'lal's death was justifiable, too. He had his attention focused on Rand and Callandor and was taken by surprise when Moiraine struck him with balefire.

 

Rahvin's death was really good. He could have easily killed Rand, but things got out of hand, and there were interferences. His death was one of the best.

 

But I liked Lanfear's death best. She was so overcome with jealousy that Rand slept with Aviendha that she didn't notice Moiraine sneaking up on her from behind, and the whole arch thing was excellent.

 

Sammael even tried to make a pact with Rand not to fight until necessary, but Rand struck anyways, so in some way he was taken by surprise. Plus, he wasn't really a match for Mashadar.

 

And Moghedian being captured by Nynaeve is understandable, too, because Nynaeve did have an a'dam and Moghedian was taken by Birgitte by surprise.

[True Source Creator]

Also, I can only look on this up to KoD, but I do have a feeling Shaiton doesn't really care about the Forsaken at all. I agree with Gordar about Moridin/Ishamael. He seems to know more than the other Forsaken, and indeed the others do seem driven by lust, power, etc. But I liked that the Forsaken, the masters of deceit, are themselves being deceived.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

The DO isn't free yet. This means there's no evil, no lust for power, jealousy, etc. yet.

 

huh? where's that from?

[jwood01]

@Barid Bel Medar Your post does a great job of highlighting how close the Forsaken have actually come to doing Rand in. Rand seems to be very lucky to have come out of these attacks alive. Do you think the pattern and being Ta'vern has anything to do with how Rand always comes out victorious?

 

 

A topic that has always interested me is what were the Halima/Aran'Gar "massages". At first I thought they might be just Aran'Gar's way of keeping close to Egwene (she got to sleep in Egwene's tent afterall) And to make Egwene dependent on her/him. However, this seemed pretty risky for such little payoff. IMO they may be more than just headache inducing and we may not have seen the planned effect yet. Possible compulsion timebomb? This could have implications for what occurs at FoM in AMoL. Thoughts?

[Suttree]

The DO isn't free yet. This means there's no evil, no lust for power, jealousy, etc. yet.

 

This isn't correct, RJ is on record as saying that Age had its own set of problems. They are just not nearly as bad when compared to the current one.

[Gordar]

The DO isn't free yet. This means there's no evil, no lust for power, jealousy, etc. yet.

 

huh? where's that from?

 

 

The DO isn't free yet. This means there's no evil, no lust for power, jealousy, etc. yet.

 

This isn't correct, RJ is on record as saying that Age had its own set of problems. They are just not nearly as bad when compared to the current one.

 

 

I must have misread something somewhere...

 

Anyway, it doesn't change much.

 

Replace the sentence below

 

The DO isn't free yet. This means there's no evil, no lust for power, jealousy, etc. yet. This leaves only 1 option, the pattern itself influenced Mierin to create the bore... This is also quite logical, because if the bore hadn't been created, the 3rd age, the next spoke in the wheel of time, couldn't have started.

 

with

 

It's quite logical to assume that Mierin was at least partially influenced by the pattern itself, which would be quite logical, because if the bore hadn't been created, the 3rd age, the next spoke in the wheel of time, couldn't have started.

[True Source Creator]

Question:

 

Who is Mierin?

 

Was he mentioned in one of the earlier books (if so, I obviously forgot), or is it to be explained in The Gathering Storm or The Towers of Midnight?

 

If it's the former, that's okay, but if it's the latter, please post it in spoiler.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

ideal seak has it in TSR and TFoH, so i hope it's OK. it's lanfear's original name, mierin eronaile.

[sandoz12]

@Barid Bel Medar Your post does a great job of highlighting how close the Forsaken have actually come to doing Rand in. Rand seems to be very lucky to have come out of these attacks alive. Do you think the pattern and being Ta'vern has anything to do with how Rand always comes out victorious?

 

 

A topic that has always interested me is what were the Halima/Aran'Gar "massages". At first I thought they might be just Aran'Gar's way of keeping close to Egwene (she got to sleep in Egwene's tent afterall) And to make Egwene dependent on her/him. However, this seemed pretty risky for such little payoff. IMO they may be more than just headache inducing and we may not have seen the planned effect yet. Possible compulsion timebomb? This could have implications for what occurs at FoM in AMoL. Thoughts?

I don't know whether or not Aran'gar used compulsion on Egwene. But it seems inconceivable that she wouldn't. I mean to be at close proximity for so long and not use the opportunity would be stupid beyond belief unless there were some practical reason why she couldn't.

[Gordar]

Question:

 

Who is Mierin?

 

Was he mentioned in one of the earlier books (if so, I obviously forgot), or is it to be explained in The Gathering Storm or The Towers of Midnight?

 

If it's the former, that's okay, but if it's the latter, please post it in spoiler.

 

Like Cindy already mentioned, it's Lanfear's original name. She and Beidomon drilled the bore.

[OptimusPrime]

Ishamael has always been my favorite. Not one of the others comes close in my oppinion. The intellectual reasons for turning Dark, the feud with Rand spanning across multiple lifetimes, the madness without losing the calculating accuracy. Dont even get me started on his alter ego. He is like the archvillain of all fantasy, and Ive never come across an antagonist as interesting.

 

Except Sylar, he comes fairly close. But Moridin would eat Sylar for breakfast.

 

Lanfear was always my favorite female Foraaken. The possessiveness over a guy she has met a handful of times in this incarnation, combined with the willingness to turn on the Dark One for him, then add "WHERE IS SHE?!?" at the docks... Aviendha wouldnt have stood a chance, even know after her development.

 

Graendal, meh. Shes overrated IMO. Sure, shes clever, and a clever bad guy is automatically cool to a point. But shes never really shown any real drive towards anything that I can think of, beyond her own vanity. If she was about to put the sad bracelet on Rand, all he would need to do is tell her that dress makes her look fat, and she would be done for. That would be the end for her.

 

Demandred USED to be one of my favorites, right up until I read the Cleansing. I can understand why he did what he did, but I still do not like it. He showed some real cowardice there in my oppinion. Yeah, sure, it was a smart move to get out of there when he realized he had underestimated. But in all honesty I think it would have done him more justice if he had actually tried at least SOMETHING before leaving. Him leaving because the circle he encountered matched his strength, to me, is like taking a sword to a fight and then leaving because the other guy has one when you thought he would be unarmed.

 

Dont get me wrong, I still dont mind Demandred. Even Graendal cant figure him out. I just hope he manages to kill Rand, that way I can openly call him awesome again.

 

Rahvin was always one of my favorites. That guy made Fires of Heaven. Not a single death in the entire series was as satisfying as his, IMO. He was wiping the floor with Rand, and it took someone elses intervention to deal with him, yet we watched Nynaeve and Moghedien being pulled towards them bit by bit, which made it feel like one less Forsaken death put down to Ta'verenism. Rahvin kicked ass.

[SylvanFox]

Ishamael/Moridin is hands-down my favorite Forsaken, and one of my favorite characters. He was interesting as Ba'alzy at the beginning, and then he just got cooler as Moridin, what with the intense TP addiction, the saa, the link to Rand, the Dark-One-ishness...

 

I've wondered for a while now whether or not Ishy gets punished when he screws something up. We see him meting it out on the other Forsaken, but does the DO ever get mad at him, or is he just like "good game." Plus, he was the only one of the failures to be reincarnated into a desirable body. So the DO maybe didn't choose this specifically, but maybe when he sent someone out to get Ishy and crew new bodies, one of the Shadowspawn/DFs present asked him what kind of bodies he'd like, and he thought of Ishy for just a second and said "Oh, make sure at least one of them is decent, but take what you can get." And then, as Nae'blis, he gets more perks (not mention being made Nae'bliss in the first place after failing the DO) - exclusive use of the TP (and he seems able to distribute this gift freely), authority, and... was it Graendal who suspected that Moridin could ask for any Forsaken's head and it would be granted to him. Aside from the fact that he is faithful (would that be something the DO valued?) and still more competent than the rest, why is this? The DO uses Moridin and others to keep his followers under control, but how does he control Moridin? Does Moridin need it? He is crazy, so he might, but most likely he requires little to no supervision to keep him on task. The DO acknowledges that, which shows some small measure of respect. Which is pretty cool. I don't think any of the other Forsaken have that.

 

Lanfear annoys me sometimes (especially as Selene) but I find her very interesting. i wonder about the reason for her drilling the Bore. She was looking for a source that would not seperate males and females in their use of the power. Could this have been stemming from something do with her and LTT? I don't how closely the timeline of the War of the Power and of Lanfear/LTT's relationship coincide. Could be she had already gotten it into her head that his desire for her was for her power? Maybe she was also a little jealous of him and wanted to find a power they could both use so that they could lay down the yard stick once and for all. Then, when she ended up freeing the DO, she was already losing her mind (I know Ishamael takes the rap for being the madman of the Forsaken but Lanfear acts crazier than he does. He keeps a tight lid on his madness. She can't seem to control herself at all) and didn't see that as a reason to turn back from her plan.

 

I was a little disappointed with Graendal and Semirhage. Semi mostly because her part seemed so short. Graendal because I was kind of hoping she would really win. I wanna see what Demandred has cooked up for us (who doesn't?).

[jwood01]

@sandoz12. I totally agree. I just hope that it is a ticking time bomb of compulsion, not some minor compulsion that we have already seen the effects of. it could make the encounter between Rand Sedai and Egwene at the FoM very interesting. Hopefully Aran'Gar/Balthamel isn't just a useless horndog.

[Kal11]

Lanfear, Moridin and Asmodean were always my favorites personally. Largely because we see the most interaction between them and Rand so they overall got better treatment character development wise imo. I agree with a previous poster that Asmo dying was a big disappointment in the series as his interactions with Rand as he grew would have been fun, especially if we got a good number of POVs from him.

 

Rahvin was another good Forsaken and had one of the better deaths. Be'lal got one of the best lines in the series talking about using the tame game of swords to kill people, that always made me laugh. Demandred we just know too little about to really judge him although he certainly has potential to be cool. The 'Gars were entertaining to me as well although Aginor's character had much wasted potential.

 

Sammael, Mesaana, Moghedien and Semi I was always pretty neutral on, don't really like or dislike them. I never understood the love Graendal gets from so many people and find her character pretty shallow. Her backstory has her going from an ascetic psychiatrist do-gooder to a complete hedonist sociopath for apparently no reason whatsoever, she of all the Forsaken should have had a proper motivation given imo (if I am missing some interview that explains better please enlighten me). I am also not a materialistic or exploitive person at all so I don't find anything about her personality endearing. Add in the fact that she smoked Asmo and I actually hate her lol.

[True Source Creator]

My revised rankings, reading what others had to say about certain characters (especially Rahvin):

 

1. Lanfear

2. Mesaana

3. Ishamael/Moridin (though I'm sure he'll go up once I get into TGS/ToM)

4. Semirhage

5. Rahvin

6. Graendal

7. Demandred

8. Aran'gar/Balthamael

9. Moghedian

10. Sammael

11. Asmodean

12. Osan'gar/Aginor

13. Be'lal

[Kadere]

My ranking would look something like this:

 

1. Ishamael/Moridin

2. Lanfear/Cyndane

3. Demandred

4. Semirhage

5. Moghedian

6. Balthamel/Aran'gar

7. Mesaana

8. Aginor/Osan'gar

9. Rahvin

10. Asmodean

11. Sammael

12. Be'lal

13. Graendal

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

is there a fantasy forsaken baseball draft coming up?

[jwood01]

If there is I want all of the guys who are using that PED called the True Power