Why did RJ turn the channeling system on its head?

[WhiskyJack]

 

even if we assume that he really remembers all of his past lives there is no way that could give him the strength of an "army of channelers" which is how Naeff described him at Maradon. There is definitely something more involved than that.

 

 

Naeff said no such thing.

my mistake, I was quoting from memory. It was told from Ituralde's POV. This hardly changes my point though.

Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like an entire army of channelers. Thousands of Shadowspawn died. Deathgates sprang up, striking across the ground, killing hundreds.

The Asha'man Naeff—standing beside Bashere—gasped. "I've never seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!"

-ToM, Ch 32

 

Naeff just learnt to channel in the past year? He doesn't have LTT past memories, he's not a Forsaken. Of course he's dumbfounded to see Age of Legends channeling style, skill, and power. If Rand can impress Moridin or Mazrim Taim, that'd be another story.

 

He's good, very good. No one doubts that. The question was, "why did RJ turn the channeling system on its head". Does anyone believe that still? In tSR chapter 7, he lifts and shields Egwene and Elyane, lifts various other objects, and sets a fires and extinguishes them all at the same time. No, that's not nearly the same scale as described at Maradon, but that when he had really just started channeling. I read that to suggest he'd be able to do things just like Maradon when he reached his potential.

 

I obviously disagree. I don't wish to debate it however with people who are completely set in their opinions such as yourself or Wiskyjack. I've made that mistake in the past and it leads exactly nowhere except to spamming the boards repeating the same points over and over and personal insults. As they say, we'll have to agree to disagree. We'll see who is right after aMoL comes out.

 

But I also don't believe that RJ (or maybe it was BS) turned the channeling system on its head. I fully expect for there to be a reasonable explanation for Rand's increased ability based on the existing rules of the WoT universe.

 

 

You can be less condescending, BUDDY. Unlike you, I actually use whats in book and not what I "perceive" is there or how I interpret it.

[Kahsm]

 

even if we assume that he really remembers all of his past lives there is no way that could give him the strength of an "army of channelers" which is how Naeff described him at Maradon. There is definitely something more involved than that.

 

 

Naeff said no such thing.

my mistake, I was quoting from memory. It was told from Ituralde's POV. This hardly changes my point though.

Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like an entire army of channelers. Thousands of Shadowspawn died. Deathgates sprang up, striking across the ground, killing hundreds.

The Asha'man Naeff—standing beside Bashere—gasped. "I've never seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!"

-ToM, Ch 32

 

Naeff just learnt to channel in the past year? He doesn't have LTT past memories, he's not a Forsaken. Of course he's dumbfounded to see Age of Legends channeling style, skill, and power. If Rand can impress Moridin or Mazrim Taim, that'd be another story.

 

He's good, very good. No one doubts that. The question was, "why did RJ turn the channeling system on its head". Does anyone believe that still? In tSR chapter 7, he lifts and shields Egwene and Elyane, lifts various other objects, and sets a fires and extinguishes them all at the same time. No, that's not nearly the same scale as described at Maradon, but that when he had really just started channeling. I read that to suggest he'd be able to do things just like Maradon when he reached his potential.

 

I obviously disagree. I don't wish to debate it however with people who are completely set in their opinions such as yourself or Wiskyjack. I've made that mistake in the past and it leads exactly nowhere except to spamming the boards repeating the same points over and over and personal insults. As they say, we'll have to agree to disagree. We'll see who is right after aMoL comes out.

 

But I also don't believe that RJ (or maybe it was BS) turned the channeling system on its head. I fully expect for there to be a reasonable explanation for Rand's increased ability based on the existing rules of the WoT universe.

 

I won't speak for Whiskyjack, though i'm not entirely sure why you got so standoff-ish? hostile? Not sure what the proper word is. My quote is full of opinion, particularly the part you bolded where I started with "_I_ read that to suggest..". And the whole point of that post was to bring it back to the original question because I also decided that we likely won't agree as to his power level, and that's fine... but also irrelevant to the original question. And as for that question... it seems we DO agree, but for different reasons. Fair enough.

 

Furthermore, I am NOT 100% sure he's not amped up. I just haven't seen enough to think otherwise, but I think it's fun to be challenged on it. If I found out the gold stuff in his brain was some angreal like stuff come the next book, I wouldn't deny it, or even be shocked. I just don't think it is, and I haven't seen anything else that suggests there's more to his OP strength now than before. If others don't agree, that's fine. I don't care to convince you (though I admit that'd be cool if I did), I just state my opinion and how I saw certain things that led me there.

 

I do however think it's more fun to demonstrate those differences of opinion and discuss those points than to come to a forum specifically FOR discussion with the attitude of, "I don't want to discuss it, lets just wait till the book comes out." I can do that without a forum.

[WhiskyJack]

 

even if we assume that he really remembers all of his past lives there is no way that could give him the strength of an "army of channelers" which is how Naeff described him at Maradon. There is definitely something more involved than that.

 

 

Naeff said no such thing.

my mistake, I was quoting from memory. It was told from Ituralde's POV. This hardly changes my point though.

Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like an entire army of channelers. Thousands of Shadowspawn died. Deathgates sprang up, striking across the ground, killing hundreds.

The Asha'man Naeff—standing beside Bashere—gasped. "I've never seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!"

-ToM, Ch 32

 

Naeff just learnt to channel in the past year? He doesn't have LTT past memories, he's not a Forsaken. Of course he's dumbfounded to see Age of Legends channeling style, skill, and power. If Rand can impress Moridin or Mazrim Taim, that'd be another story.

 

He's good, very good. No one doubts that. The question was, "why did RJ turn the channeling system on its head". Does anyone believe that still? In tSR chapter 7, he lifts and shields Egwene and Elyane, lifts various other objects, and sets a fires and extinguishes them all at the same time. No, that's not nearly the same scale as described at Maradon, but that when he had really just started channeling. I read that to suggest he'd be able to do things just like Maradon when he reached his potential.

 

Also, Lanfear v2.0 beating Alivia because "She knows A LOT more about the power" (said RJ) goes to show how much knowledge counts over power. Doesn't mean he "taps directly into the creator" or whatever people suggest.

 

Ishamel and LTT fought each other twice and Ishamel lost both times and both had same strength. Did Aginor not claim in first book that he had matched LTT stroke for stroke albeit being weaker in one power? Raw strength, albeit being important doesn't trump knowledge. Asmodean couldn't break a hard point shield put by Lanfear. Nynaeve couldn't break shield put by one of those kins who proudly claimed she could hold one of the forsaken (well she did in a way). Look at Nynaeve's example. She is not growing stronger but her weaves are getting better. Skill grows with time even if strength doesn't. These Asha'man not only lack knowledge, they lack finesse too.

[Seeker Matt]

My 2 cents (and it is only 2 cents compared to the depth of other peoples musings) is that in Veins of Gold Rand became the Champion of Light and was endowed with gifts and abilities by the Creator to neutralise the Dark One. I do not necessarily believe he used those powers in Maradon other than in being able to access his full strength and knowledge of the workings of the OP. After all, he did possess the greatest raw power of all Aes Sedai in the AoL.

 

Perhaps it is too much Deus ex machina for some and may also be undesirable as it's kinda the true end of the WoT story. However, while the battle for possession of the 'vessel' of the possible Champion of the Light is over, the actual state of Randland is yet to be determined and that may be crucial to the next encounter with the DO; it would also be cool to actually see Rand the "Vessel" imprison the DO once more and a resolution of sorts to all the characters and lands we have come to know.

[noynaert@gmail.com]

At Maradon Rand was channeling against shadowspawn. LTT seems to know a lot of weaves that are specific to Shadowspawn. All of the anti-shadowspawn weaves that we have seen are very flashy and dramatic. In Tear non-channelers saw the whorl of energy and in the KoD battle with trollocs there were weaves that created dramatic fire pillars and death gates. Also, Rand seems to be very adept at tying off weaves, and some of the combat weaves he used in KoD seemed to be what we would now call "fire and forget" weapons that went off well after they were spun. Naeff might not have recognized that many of the weaves were either tied off or taking care of themselves. Bashear saw Rand and others channeling at the battle in KoD, but at that point Rand was barely able to stand when he channeled. At Maladron Rand was healthy and he was drawing on full AoL channeling skills.

 

The Forsaken were not channeling against shadowspawn at the cleansing so they could not use the ubber dramatic weaves Rand used against trollocs. A lot of the Forsaken really didn't have their hearts in the battle to start with, and they were as concerned about other Forsaken "accidentally" killing them off as they were with getting knocked off by their designated enemies. They were also probably reluctant to teach the non-Forsaken any new combat weaves. The battle at the cleansing was also channelers vs channelers with males and females involved on both sides; Any elaborate weaves would be traced back to their source. Therefore the battle at the cleansing was was really more of a fire-and-maneuver skirmish from the perspective of the Forsaken.

 

Sammael might have been reluctant to teach any new weaves at the Cairhein battle, but he did end up teaching Rand the fire-needle weave when it came to his own survival.

[The Fallen One]

I think Rand's confidence during his encounter with Egwene in the tower has nothing to do with his ability in with the Power, but I tend to think it comes from his new found control over his Ta'veren nature. In other words, I don't believe that he could have broke the shield, just that he could have made the Aes Sedai drop it. We see Rand get most of Arad Doman organized without doing anything dramatic, I think that is a good example of just how in tune he is with his Ta'veren nature now.

 

As for Maradon, while do think Rand is more powerful than he was pre-VoG, I think most of it was probably from better understanding of how to use the power gained from LTs memories. Nothing to really back up my opinion on this in the book, that is just a feeling I get. I think team Jordan purposefully did not give Rand POVs until the epilogue just to keep us in suspense about how Rand is doing all the crazy things he has done in ToM.

 

Lastly, about his children. Yeah, this goes against all that 3rd agers and AoLers (as far as we know) know about channeling; however, as much as everyone in this world thinks they know about channeling, we have been shown time and time again that everyone's knowledge is pretty limited in the grand scheme of things. By establishing that no one really knows as much about channeling as they think they do, RJ essentially left himself a lot of room to add things and change things about the magic system he created for Randland. Which, in my opinion, was a pretty brilliant move on his part.

[MarkDiLillo]

Guys, they really cant drop anymore hints than they have that Rand has gained some super powers since VoG. He handles hundreds/thousands of weaves at once, shoots Light (that is Light with a capital L in the books) at the enemies, makes darkfriends go mad upon seeing his Light, can see darkfriends by looking in their eyes, and shows absolutely no fear from dozens/hundreds of Aes Sedai surrounding him. Let's not forget that he suddenly has rays of sunshine following him everywhere, and he can make trees blossom and food unspoil at will.

 

This is not just "oh suddenly I remember how to use the OP really well". If that's all this is then BS screwed up huge and they need to find a new author.

[WhiskyJack]

^^Actually I distinctly recall Rand shooting stuff like fire, ice, death gates on trollocs. No where, not once was he "shooting" Light on anyone. Light is only mentioned in regard to him being storm of light and only visible result we have seen is Dark friends unable to stomach that light. And you just did not say 1000s of weaves;) I am pretty sure by the time book comes out, people will be convinced Rand weaved like 1 million weaves at the same time. It's like every new post makes the same scene even more dazzling Watchout DO!

[Wolf505]

Guys, they really cant drop anymore hints than they have that Rand has gained some super powers since VoG. He handles hundreds/thousands of weaves at once, shoots Light (that is Light with a capital L in the books) at the enemies, makes darkfriends go mad upon seeing his Light, can see darkfriends by looking in their eyes, and shows absolutely no fear from dozens/hundreds of Aes Sedai surrounding him. Let's not forget that he suddenly has rays of sunshine following him everywhere, and he can make trees blossom and food unspoil at will.

 

This is not just "oh suddenly I remember how to use the OP really well". If that's all this is then BS screwed up huge and they need to find a new author.

 

Agreed. My point was that clearly the events of VoG were unprecedented either in the 2nd or 3rd ages. Rand is something nobody, even the Forsaken (save perhaps Ishamael/Moridin), have heard of. Like I said before, at least some of the Forsaken doubted Rand was really LTT reborn since they'd never heard of that happening before.

 

I would suggest that the epiphany/transformation he went through had the effect of both causing him to be able to remember his past lives as well as increasing his chanelling ability. One thing didn't cause the other, but both happened as a result of VoG. Of course, being able to remember being Lews Therin obviously gave him the full knowledge of the Age of Legends and all the weaves LTT knew, but I think he's beyond that level now. If not that's basically just saying he's just another chaneller. Clearly he isn't and I don't know how RJ/BS could spell that out better without just coming out and straight saying it, and what fun would that be? I have no doubt that when we finally get a post VoG Rand POV chapter all will be revealed. It's been noted they kept Rand POVs out of ToM on purpose. No doubt to fuel this exact speculation. I can't say I think that's a bad thing, after all we're talking about it aren't we?

[smthappy]

By the way didn't Ashmodean said to Rand that there are a couple of man who can break the 13 woman circle but Rand isn't one of them ?

[FarShainMael]

while the battle for possession of the 'vessel' of the possible Champion of the Light is over, the actual state of Randland is yet to be determined and that may be crucial to the next encounter with the DO

 

'The great battle done, but the world not yet done with battle'...

[FarShainMael]

By the way didn't Ashmodean said to Rand that there are a couple of man who can break the 13 woman circle but Rand isn't one of them ?

 

In TFOH3, Asmodean is explaining linking to Rand:

 

Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard.

 

Of course, the Tower rejects candidates they consider too weak in the Power, like Morgase (at least, they used to..). Also, Rand is still in the very early stages of his development at this point:

 

You can grasp saidin every time you try, now, and tell one flow from another. You can shield yourself, and the Power does what you want it to.

 

Rand has grown in thw Power a bit since then!

[smthappy]

By the way didn't Ashmodean said to Rand that there are a couple of man who can break the 13 woman circle but Rand isn't one of them ?

 

In TFOH3, Asmodean is explaining linking to Rand:

 

Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard.

 

Of course, the Tower rejects candidates they consider too weak in the Power, like Morgase (at least, they used to..). Also, Rand is still in the very early stages of his development at this point:

 

You can grasp saidin every time you try, now, and tell one flow from another. You can shield yourself, and the Power does what you want it to.

 

Rand has grown in thw Power a bit since then!

 

Thanks for answering i was reading WoT in my native language and there Asmodean said some man could break the shield

[FarShainMael]

That's right. Asmo said that 13 weak women could overpower most men, not all men, so you can deduce that some men could indeed break such a shield.

[Sharaman]

@FSM There's a contradiction there in those two quotes that you've highlighted.

"Most men"... versus "You or any man". The second statement implies all men -- the first implies not all men. Also Asmo isn't bound not to lie, and he isn't (self-confessedly) an expert in the power and its ramifications.

Given those contradictions/ caveats can one "rely" on these two quotes to build a theory?

[Didgya]

Few points...I believe these scenes just show contrast...

Egwene-opinion that Rand basically feels unstoppable to her and her sisters-is to draw a contrast to him hiding from sisters and the White Tower earlier in the books and speaks to how he is seen by Egwene and the other sisters.

Maradon-Early in the books Rand couldnt channel his way out of a paper sack then he learned and aquired a sickness, madness and straight up evil . Now he is whole, full in his potential and mentally and phisically sound= blasting an army of shadowspawn It shows that he is fully locked loaded and is ready for the last battle. It didnt seem over the top and he was pushed to his limits(and the scene was sweet like thunder!) He even comments about him not being able to fight like that or something, after the battle. Since he was very vulnerable and weak after (which discounts him being too perfect and godly) which fits.

Kiddos-times they are a' changin.

PS-little tired, sorry for the rough post

[alykyn]

That's right. Asmo said that 13 weak women could overpower most men, not all men, so you can deduce that some men could indeed break such a shield.

 

 

Yes, but the keywords are "barely channel" as in regards to the 'most men'. And "The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard." That doesn't even specify them being Aes Sedai, just 'in the tower', so that would even include novices.

 

I think regardless of Rand's level of strength at this point Asmodean already knows what "any man" ie LTT, Ishamael, Aginor, etc can do with the Power, so he wouldnt have said "any man" if he meant "most men".

 

If 13 of the weakest initiates of the tower can shield ANY man, then certainly 13 AS can, and certainly no woman used to shield a man would be weak, so really what Asmodean was saying was that due to some unexplained reason it is virtually impossible to break a circle of that size, even for LTT, even if the women are the WEAKEST women.

 

Therefore, just the idea that Egwene has that Rand can break a 13 shield, let alone TWO based on his channeling abilities alone is preposterous.

[Jon Paul]

He'd have broken the shield by simply commanding the Aes Sedai to release the Power. Not because the Pattern obeys his will but because he obeys the Pattern's Will. Or hell just by sheer damn confidence.

[USURP888]

Using the One power, I would tend to agree that Rand would find it impossible to break a shield by 26 AS, overpowered or not. But I would venture to suggest that Rand can use a different kind of power, not the TP of the Dark One but a power coming from his Inner Light. This light is present inside his brain enveloping all the dark tendrils of madness. This inner Light seems to be the cause why darkfriends can no longer bear to look directly at him. And in Maradon, it was pointed out that Rand is channeling streams of LIGHT and Power..so I would guess that Rand has become the Light's champion and is able to use a source different from the OP and the TP now so even shielded from the OP, I would surmise that Rand can still continue to channel some other power from the Light.

[Kahsm]

Using the One power, I would tend to agree that Rand would find it impossible to break a shield by 26 AS, overpowered or not. But I would venture to suggest that Rand can use a different kind of power, not the TP of the Dark One but a power coming from his Inner Light. This light is present inside his brain enveloping all the dark tendrils of madness. This inner Light seems to be the cause why darkfriends can no longer bear to look directly at him. And in Maradon, it was pointed out that Rand is channeling streams of LIGHT and Power..so I would guess that Rand has become the Light's champion and is able to use a source different from the OP and the TP now so even shielded from the OP, I would surmise that Rand can still continue to channel some other power from the Light.

 

It has already been pointed out that he wasn't channeling streams of light. It was just emanating from him.

 

"The Asha'man Naeff—standing beside Bashere—gasped. "I've never

seen so many weaves at once," he whispered. "I can't track them all. He's

a storm. A storm of Light and streams of Power!""

The streams themselves were not Light. Plus, because of the capitalization of Light, and the Randland culture, it's more like saying, "A storm of godly-ness..." Which, to me, just shows how in awe Naeff is. Since only he could see this light I would guess Rand holding saidin creates quite a nimbus around him

[WhiskyJack]

Exactly my thought. He glows, big time. This directly relates to DFs poking their eyes out just to avoid seeing that light.

[Wolf505]

The streams themselves were not Light. Plus, because of the capitalization of Light, and the Randland culture, it's more like saying, "A storm of godly-ness..." Which, to me, just shows how in awe Naeff is. Since only he could see this light I would guess Rand holding saidin creates quite a nimbus around him

 

Only women glow when other female channelers see them. Men can just feel how much power another man is holding with no visible indicator unless the other man weaves something.

[WhiskyJack]

The streams themselves were not Light. Plus, because of the capitalization of Light, and the Randland culture, it's more like saying, "A storm of godly-ness..." Which, to me, just shows how in awe Naeff is. Since only he could see this light I would guess Rand holding saidin creates quite a nimbus around him

 

Only women glow when other female channelers see them. Men can just feel how much power another man is holding with no visible indicator unless the other man weaves something.

 

 

Glowing is not related to one power directly.

[herid]

Whatever this glowing around Rand is, it is certainly related to channeling - it's only observed when he channels.

 

The streams themselves were not Light. Plus, because of the capitalization of Light, and the Randland culture, it's more like saying, "A storm of godly-ness..." Which, to me, just shows how in awe Naeff is. Since only he could see this light I would guess Rand holding saidin creates quite a nimbus around him

 

Only women glow when other female channelers see them. Men can just feel how much power another man is holding with no visible indicator unless the other man weaves something.

The light emanating from Rand was also seen by Ituralde (the scene is from his PoV) who is not a channeler so it doesn't even matter that there male channelers normally can't see a glow of saidin around each other.

 

Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn. He was like an entire army of channelers.

 

....

 

The man himself seemed to be glowing. Was it the reflection of the swaths of fire, or perhaps the lightning blasts? Al'Thor seemed brighter than them all, his hand upraised against the Shadowspawn.

 

 

This is definitely something unique to the new Rand. that's why some people suspected that he might be using a sa'angreal.

 

 

and as I mentioned BS confirmed in an interview that the fact that Rand is channeling "Light and Power" as he did with the Eye of the World is important.

[Entreri]

He is certainly not using an sa'angreal, 100% certain of this. Only sa'angreal Rand has in Callandor and that would be very apparent by Naeff et al in Maradon.

 

Rand is that strong now, able to break through a shield held by 13 or destroy an army of 1/2 million by himself. His children are the proof of his unique Jesus power.

 

Rand > LTT > Ishamael > any Forsaken.

 

 

 

Requires 13 AS to shield any man from saidin, not 13 novices in the Tower. Otherwise the strongest man would be incredibly weak, especially since OP strength is similar to "arm strength".

 

Asmodean: "Some women have stronger arms than some men, but in general it is the other way around. The same holds in the strength in the Power, and in about the same proportion".

 

Moraine, Fires of Heaven: "only thirteen sisters can shield any man from saidin".

 

Lanfear speaking to Rahvin after he finished using Compulsion on an AS: "Would you still be so complacent if those untutored children put a circle of thirteen around you".

 

Asmodean: "The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man".