Machin Shin

[WoTgirl111]

I was re-reading the series recently when I saw something about Fain controlling Machin Shin. I was wondering how is this possible.

 

I realize that there's probably already a thread on this but I'm too lazy to find it.

[Elend]

I think it has to do with the similarity between Machin Shin and Mashadar.

[Mr Ares]

The short answer is, he can't. The closest we've seen to that is his survival in EotW, followed by the odd behaviour is displays in TGH (waiting for Rand and trying to get out of the Ways). Of course, this might look like Fain is controlling it to an outside observer, but we know that Fain actually wanted Rand to follow him - something of Fain might have rubbed off on Machin Shin, but it is acting under its own direction, not Fain's.

[spoke]

The short answer is, he can't. The closest we've seen to that is his survival in EotW, followed by the odd behaviour is displays in TGH (waiting for Rand and trying to get out of the Ways). Of course, this might look like Fain is controlling it to an outside observer, but we know that Fain actually wanted Rand to follow him - something of Fain might have rubbed off on Machin Shin, but it is acting under its own direction, not Fain's.

 

 

I disagree with you on that Mr. Ares, the short answer is that it is unknown. Some assume that he can, but we haven't seen enough of Machin Shin to really know if it is being controlled by fain or not. However, Machin Shin has been exhibiting odd behavior in that it isn't killing the Trolloc armies going through the ways.

[Red2111]

not only that but it seems to be attracted to Rand in a way. i point to Machin Shin waiting at 2 Way Gate, not just the one in that DF's mannor where Fain entered the Ways through and knew Rand would most likely come through to follow him.

 

 

at some point in the series we're told of how Machin Shin reacted to Fain. half wanted ot embrace him, the other half to run away in fear. we also know that Fain was driven like a hound to chase after Rand. could it be that Machin Shin embraced Fain and Fain was able to some how effect Machin Shin to focus on Rand. or it could have to do with the fact it was born from the Taint and that Rand is a male channeler who happens to be the Dragon. maybe Machin Shin has an attraction or is drawn to male channelers because they have touched and exposed themselves to the taint. this doesn't explain why Machin Shin was waiting at the Way Gate, as apparently outside forces or events don't effect the Ways ...

 

 

i'm of the opinion that Machin Shin is drawn to Fain, even more so the more evil Fain becomes; and due to Fain being touched by the DO directly, as well as the link between Fain & Shadar Logoth (ie: Mashadar) he is able to convince it to follow his orders or atleast work for him. kinda liek Lord Voldemort's ability to have the Dementors work on his side without them attempting to consume his soul.

[Guns of Brixton]

The short answer is, he can't. The closest we've seen to that is his survival in EotW, followed by the odd behaviour is displays in TGH (waiting for Rand and trying to get out of the Ways). Of course, this might look like Fain is controlling it to an outside observer, but we know that Fain actually wanted Rand to follow him - something of Fain might have rubbed off on Machin Shin, but it is acting under its own direction, not Fain's.

 

I'm not sure if this is the answer. Recall that when Machin Shin enveloped/welcomed/fled from Fain, he was not sure which of the three boys he was really after, therefore, if Fain's link to Rand is what caused Machin shin to follow Rand, then logically it would do the same for Perrin and Mat. However Perrin has shown that he can still travel the ways without having Machin Shin waiting for him.

Since Machin Shin is a manifestation of the Taint on Saidin, it comes from the same source of Fain's original marking, (his distillation from humanity, and becoming a soul fully owned by the Dark One). I think this is part of what gives Fain control over Machin Shin, (the other part coming from his intensly powerful Mordeth powers).

 

It just works logically that the three supernatural sources of evil, (Shai'tan, Mashadar, and Machin Shin)are all under the control of Fain, the Wild card in this story, (even more so than Mat "accidentally married the Seanchan Empress" Cauthon)

[Elan Tedronai]

Because he's the man.

[David Casto]

The way I see it is that Machin Shin eats souls. Mordeth could survive that but Fain couldn't. Some of Fain remained in Mordeth, but after he escaped the Ways he tries to renounce the DO. Along with Fains soul, Machin Shin picked up the ability to track the three amigos along with his compulsion to hunt them, especially Rand. In TSR, Perrin manages to make it most of the way through the Ways because at that time, the little Fain in Machin Shin was destracted by Rand jumping straight from Tear to the Waste, without using the Ways. He REALLY wants Rand, but settles for Perrin.

 

Probably not exactly what happenned but it works for. I hope the Ways are cleansed in AMOL and we get to see Machin Shin one last time. I always felt Jordan just kind of left it behind. It would be so awesome if it found it's way out of the Ways

[mb]

It has seemed to me that Machin Shin actually gained Fain's Rand-tracking ability.

 

If anyone could control/command Machin Shin, Forsaken and/or Dark-sided channelers might be most probable.

[Red2111]

I'm not sure if this is the answer. Recall that when Machin Shin enveloped/welcomed/fled from Fain, he was not sure which of the three boys he was really after, therefore, if Fain's link to Rand is what caused Machin shin to follow Rand, then logically it would do the same for Perrin and Mat. However Perrin has shown that he can still travel the ways without having Machin Shin waiting for him.

Since Machin Shin is a manifestation of the Taint on Saidin, it comes from the same source of Fain's original marking, (his distillation from humanity, and becoming a soul fully owned by the Dark One). I think this is part of what gives Fain control over Machin Shin, (the other part coming from his intensly powerful Mordeth powers).

 

It just works logically that the three supernatural sources of evil, (Shai'tan, Mashadar, and Machin Shin)are all under the control of Fain, the Wild card in this story, (even more so than Mat "accidentally married the Seanchan Empress" Cauthon)

 

actually, two points both of which are wrong.

 

Firstly, the DO isn't under the control of Fain, other way around. at this point in the series, Fain is able to break the control the DO has on him (ie: hounding the Rand, Perrin & Matt) this is due to him gaining strength from both Mordeth & the Dagger imo. i agree with you about contorlling the other two though

 

 

2nd is about him focusing more on Rand. you claim each pulled him equally correct; this i disagree with. they did at first, but Rand always pulled him the most. when Rand got split up from Moraine, Fain followed Rand, not Perrin, to Caymlen. (part of this could be from the pull of Matts dagger as well). then, in the Boarderlands, Fain directly focuses in on Rand. he constantly addresses only Rand out of the 3. "I can always find you Al'Thor" he says "You can;t hide from me Al'Thor" he boasts. his eyes drift upwards while in his cell to were Rand is, explaining the feeling of the invisible watcher Rand is constantly talks about.

 

then there is the message "We shall mee on Toman Head Al'Thor" and the message left with the DF in Carhien only for Rand. also the "I can feel you out there Al'Thor" when Loial & Rand steal back the Horn. all of this is before Fain goes through the Ways and has Machin Shin gaurd the door against Rand. so we see that he's been able to focus on one of the taverin; because at this point the Ishy has been able to tell which taverin is which (ie: picking up the little statues early on in tGH)

 

 

but still, if you reveiw the discussion Morian & Fain have; you'll find even then Fain hints at the pull of Rand was worse that Perrin & Matt. so i disagree that all 3 were equal where Fain was concerned.

 

 

 

The way I see it is that Machin Shin eats souls. Mordeth could survive that but Fain couldn't. Some of Fain remained in Mordeth, but after he escaped the Ways he tries to renounce the DO. Along with Fains soul, Machin Shin picked up the ability to track the three amigos along with his compulsion to hunt them, especially Rand. In TSR, Perrin manages to make it most of the way through the Ways because at that time, the little Fain in Machin Shin was destracted by Rand jumping straight from Tear to the Waste, without using the Ways. He REALLY wants Rand, but settles for Perrin.

 

Probably not exactly what happenned but it works for. I hope the Ways are cleansed in AMOL and we get to see Machin Shin one last time. I always felt Jordan just kind of left it behind. It would be so awesome if it found it's way out of the Ways

 

Rand doesnt travel or "jump straight to" the Waste from tear; it's liek a long 3 or 6 month journey dude. a small thing, but i get what your saying.

 

 

as for eating Fains soul, in ToM recall what Fain says. he claims a part of him rememebrs being Fain; had Fain's soul been eaten, i don't think there would have been any of those memories left. memories stay with the soul remember.

 

also, if this was the case, thsi wuodl have happened in EotW, when Machin Shin first encounters Fain. not to mention Fains soul has been touched by the DO directly, somethine i don't think Machin SHin could consume and something Moriane directly comments on.

 

 

 

as for Machin Shin escaping the Ways. again i already think it has; through Fain. if ou recall the Prolouge in ToM, we see Zombie Trollocs that Fain controls like puppets. this either has to be Mashadar or Machin Shin, and my money is on Machin Shin considering the state that one Ogier was in that lived after machin Shin attacked him. it might be that Fain consumed and is able to use Machin Shin some how.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

Rand doesnt travel or "jump straight to" the Waste from tear; it's liek a long 3 or 6 month journey dude. a small thing, but i get what your saying.

 

 

 

actually, Rand did technically "jump" from Tear to the waste. He used portal stones. I cant remember exactly how much time was taken from them, but it was less than 3-6 months. It was more like a week max.

 

SO technically, to his memory, and everyone elses who travelled with him, he did in fact "jump" from tear to waste.

[Red2111]

my memory is choppy on the series with little points like that. i know most of the traveling to Rhudian was done via foot ut all that i remember them being in the dessert. i'm almost to the book in my re-read so i'll just have to take your word on it for now

 

all i'm sure of is that he hadn't discovered travelign or skimming at that point

 

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

my memory is choppy on the series with little points like that. i know most of the traveling to Rhudian was done via foot ut all that i remember them being in the dessert. i'm almost to the book in my re-read so i'll just have to take your word on it for now

 

all i'm sure of is that he hadn't discovered travelign or skimming at that point

 

 

you are correct.

 

Rhudian and such was done by foot. Also, Rand hadn't discovered (some people thing he has used skimming before, but he certainly did not conciously know how) travelling or skimming at that point, so yeah, your correct.

 

From tear to somwhere in the waste, he used portal stones (like in tGH).

 

Haha, I know what you mean about memory. I get it all the time. I think I once forgot that Egwene knew about the sul'dam = can be leashed! (it was her that discovered it haha)

[Mr Ares]

The short answer is, he can't. The closest we've seen to that is his survival in EotW, followed by the odd behaviour is displays in TGH (waiting for Rand and trying to get out of the Ways). Of course, this might look like Fain is controlling it to an outside observer, but we know that Fain actually wanted Rand to follow him - something of Fain might have rubbed off on Machin Shin, but it is acting under its own direction, not Fain's.

I disagree with you on that Mr. Ares, the short answer is that it is unknown. Some assume that he can, but we haven't seen enough of Machin Shin to really know if it is being controlled by fain or not. However, Machin Shin has been exhibiting odd behavior in that it isn't killing the Trolloc armies going through the ways.

Well, there is evidence to indicate MS is not under Fain's control - it acts against his wishes in TGH. On the other hand, there is precisely nothing to indicate it is under his control. Now, granted, we don't have a statement saying "Fain doesn't control MS", but the evidence all points one way. And MS's oddities do not support that it is under Fain's control - it never does what Fain wants, after all.

 

 

The short answer is, he can't. The closest we've seen to that is his survival in EotW, followed by the odd behaviour is displays in TGH (waiting for Rand and trying to get out of the Ways). Of course, this might look like Fain is controlling it to an outside observer, but we know that Fain actually wanted Rand to follow him - something of Fain might have rubbed off on Machin Shin, but it is acting under its own direction, not Fain's.

I'm not sure if this is the answer. Recall that when Machin Shin enveloped/welcomed/fled from Fain, he was not sure which of the three boys he was really after, therefore, if Fain's link to Rand is what caused Machin shin to follow Rand, then logically it would do the same for Perrin and Mat. However Perrin has shown that he can still travel the ways without having Machin Shin waiting for him.

Since Machin Shin is a manifestation of the Taint on Saidin, it comes from the same source of Fain's original marking, (his distillation from humanity, and becoming a soul fully owned by the Dark One). I think this is part of what gives Fain control over Machin Shin, (the other part coming from his intensly powerful Mordeth powers).

 

It just works logically that the three supernatural sources of evil, (Shai'tan, Mashadar, and Machin Shin)are all under the control of Fain, the Wild card in this story, (even more so than Mat "accidentally married the Seanchan Empress" Cauthon)

As has already been pointed out, Fain does not treat all three boys equally, he is focused on Rand above all others. And can anyone give an example of MS acting to Fain's wishes? As for it working logically that Shai'tan, Mashadar and MS are all under Fain's control, that's a rather curious thing to say. After all, none of those things are under his control, so I am left to wonder at your logic there. Would you mind explaining?

[Red2111]

Haha, I know what you mean about memory. I get it all the time. I think I once forgot that Egwene knew about the sul'dam = can be leashed! (it was her that discovered it haha)

 

awesome!! man forgetting things is nothing. the first time i read the series the pages in my book stuck together causeing me to totally skip over Rands fight with Rahvin. that or i missplaced my book mark *shakes head*

 

 

Well, there is evidence to indicate MS is not under Fain's control - it acts against his wishes in TGH. On the other hand, there is precisely nothing to indicate it is under his control. Now, granted, we don't have a statement saying "Fain doesn't control MS", but the evidence all points one way. And MS's oddities do not support that it is under Fain's control - it never does what Fain wants, after all.

 

how do you know it acted against Rains orders. how do you know Fain didn't order it to block Rand.

 

i mean yeah Fain wanted Rand to follow him, but Fain also wanted time to make sure he set the trap up in Falme for when Rand got there. had Rand been able to follow Fain through the Ways, Fain might not have gottent he chance to hand the Horn over to the Chan, which wuld ruin his entire plan. i mean i had to lug that big chest with him, plus had those Dark Freinds & Trollocs slowing him down when he entered the Ways; yet they disappear once he's come out on the other side (probably fed to Machin Shin) Rand & Co could have easily overtaken him due to the burden of the chest.

 

my best guess is, and what makes most sense, is that Fain ordered Machin Shin to prevent Rand from comming in and following him directly.

[Sharaman]

Rand uses a portal stone to jump from Tear to the Waste in one day. The stone he jumps to, is on a hill just outside Rhuidean.

[Mr Ares]

Well, there is evidence to indicate MS is not under Fain's control - it acts against his wishes in TGH. On the other hand, there is precisely nothing to indicate it is under his control. Now, granted, we don't have a statement saying "Fain doesn't control MS", but the evidence all points one way. And MS's oddities do not support that it is under Fain's control - it never does what Fain wants, after all.

 

how do you know it acted against Rains orders? how do you know Fain didn't order it to block Rand?

Well, I'd say this quote is a fair bit of supporting evidence: "'High Lord, there are those who follow me...and they cannot be more than a day or two behind me.'" TGH 34. If Fain doesn't expect them to come through the Ways after him, then he should believe they are more than a day or two behind.

[MierinWru]

Well, I'd say this quote is a fair bit of supporting evidence: "'High Lord, there are those who follow me...and they cannot be more than a day or two behind me.'" TGH 34. If Fain doesn't expect them to come through the Ways after him, then he should believe they are more than a day or two behind.

 

That quote is from TGH? Then I really don't think it's saying much since Fain's power has been steadily increasing over the last couple of books and Sanderson wrote him as some sort of nasty uber-villain-power surrounded by fog (MS).

[Barid Bel Medar]

Great, I didnt want to start a new thread on this, and found the perfect place to put it.

 

Think of ToM Prolouge, Fain PoV.

 

Consuming. Thrilling. Beautiful. Warming. Violent. Hatred. Wonderful.

It was the storm that gave him strength, the purpose that drove him.

 

Now the part I have bolded, doesnt it sound familiar? The voices of Machin Shin?

[nolirion]

Well I see Fain as a sponge , as mordeth fuse in Fain a part of the black wind imprint itself on Fain , and Vice versa .

[Mr Ares]

Well, I'd say this quote is a fair bit of supporting evidence: "'High Lord, there are those who follow me...and they cannot be more than a day or two behind me.'" TGH 34. If Fain doesn't expect them to come through the Ways after him, then he should believe they are more than a day or two behind.

That quote is from TGH? Then I really don't think it's saying much since Fain's power has been steadily increasing over the last couple of books and Sanderson wrote him as some sort of nasty uber-villain-power surrounded by fog (MS).

Well, I think it's saying all it needs to as it was posted in response to a query about the events of that book. MS is not a fog, it is a wind. Maybe Fain has grown so powerful he can magically take the Black Wind from the Ways, convert it into a fog, and do all this with absolutely no hint that it has ever happened. I'd be more inclined to say it just never happened.

[yoniy0]

Consuming. Thrilling. Beautiful. Warming. Violent. Hatred. Wonderful.

It was the storm that gave him strength, the purpose that drove him.

Now the part I have bolded, doesnt it sound familiar? The voices of Machin Shin?

It does but it doesn't. It doesn't mention anything about sucking bone-marrow or singing pain or anything.