Egwene ugh

[Guest PiotrekS]

So here's the thing:

 

Am I really the only one who never bought the reasons for the Aes Sedai making Egwene Amyrlin?

 

I always thought it was terribly unrealistic and the reasoning behind it felt very much like an unconvincing plot-device. Now people will probably just repeat the reasoning given in the books but do you guys really think that the explanation given is realistic? They made her Amyrlin only cause she knows Rand and should be easy to manipulate being such a young girl? Wow, the Aes Sedai need to improve their plotting skills.

No I never bought it either. Especially since the Salidar Aes Sedai never used the fact that Egwene was a friend of the Dragon Reborn in any way after she had become Amyrlin and the Hall forbade her any contact with Rand (not that she tried much to do it).

 

Besides, a third of the Aes Sedai hadn't yet picked a side in this struggle by the time Egwene was chosen for Amyrlin. For any of them seeing the rebels so desperate and unsure of their chances to overthrow Elaida that they resorted to choosing an 18 year old Accepted for their Amyrlin logically should've made much more likely to choose Elaida.

 

Agreed.

 

What's more, if the Rebels had serious plans on making Egwene their puppet Amyrlin, they should have somehow limited her formal powers by, just for example, subjecting all her decrees to the Keeper's signature. It was extremaly dumb to select such totally unknown (to them) person and give her all the powers of the Amyrlin, relying only on the assumption that she would be meek and obedient (which could be contradicted by interviewing anybody who had known Egwene before!)

 

I think the whole Egwene arc has gone down after Salidar and became simply unbelievable for me.

[Fbombs]

Egwene loves being spanked, that's pretty much her whole character. She doesn't respect Rand, Mat and so on because they need to put her in her fucking place.

[Puny]

Egwene loves being spanked, that's pretty much her whole character. She doesn't respect Rand, Mat and so on because they need to put her in her fucking place.

 

Lol... I see. So that is the reciepe for Egwene to be more humble. I doubt it though, she isn´t from Saldaea, and I´ve seen no such inclination from her PoV or charachter to think a spanking or something else to put her in her place would work. She´d prolly just embrace the pain as she´s seen the Aiel do.

[Fbombs]

Egwene winds up respecting those who welt her bottom. The Wise Ones and Silviana for example.

[Puny]

Lol... I think that is just a coincidence. I doubt Rand Sedai would welt her bottom, and hardly Gawyn either. She´d prolly welt his! I don´t think Egwene is gonna get humble by a spanking though. I hope something will happen to humble her... or she´ll get humbled by Logain maybe.

If they are gonna be Amyrlin and M´hael working together she needs to be humbled. Or maybe not, seeing as Logain is as arrogant as her. But Light, he does it good. Maybe I´m biased cause I think Logain is hot, lol.

 

I do hope the Asha´man will get the respect they deserve though. It was that the guardians balance the servants, nothing about them cooperating now that I think of it.

[Fbombs]

Rand is going to grow a special, power wrought hand to replace his old one and this is what he will use to give Egwene's rump the welting to end all weltings. Stinging smack after stinging smack of respect just pounded into her jiggling, smack hungry bottom.

[Puny]

I doubt Brandon is gonna make Rand do that to Eggy, lol. Rand wouldn´t lower himself like that, even though you wish for that to happen Fbombs.

 

Usually people need to go through something dramatic for them to change perspective on things, and I don´t think Egwene will have time for that. She will believe what she will believe, and do what she think is right. Rand don´t need to bother with her. She will be as she is... and the Aes Sedai may be great again, with Egwene changing them for the good, or she will cling to her power and the Aes Sedai will not change and eventually loose their place in the world I think.

[Fbombs]

Egwene's rump and Rand's hand are in themselves Heroes of the Horn, spun out again by the wheel to make contact with one another repeatedly in this Age and at high velocity.

[Muad Cheade]

Is there any point to this thread anymore?

[Entreri]

Rand Sedai really put that little girl in her place.

 

It is unrealistic that a mere 18 year old would be made Amyrlin. Sure these so-called Aes Sedai are half-wits, but come on.

[Puny]

Is there any point to this thread anymore?

 

Yes, we are discussing if a spanking would make Egwene more humble. I think no Rand Sedai´s hand is not that strong. And besides, breaking a girl isn´t fun, there needs to be a little bit spirit left... now back OT lol.

Besides Muad, Im not the one that wanted graves to 23 oaks =P... that part was funny.

 

I don´t think it´s her age that does it. It´s her unrealistic care for the Tower. We could argue Rand was only this 20ish young man, why would people follow him. But he can channel, and he has fulfilled a number of prophecies, he has aiel friends, LTT for advice and so on. What does Egwene have?

When we are on this note I´ve seen on these forums people say w/e you say something bad of Eggy you are an Egwene hater... why? Because you think her arc is not realistic?

[Fbombs]

 

2. WE KNOW that Rand has to break the seals. We know Rand is right, and is definitely more capable than Egwene in these matters. Even though Egwene has perfect right to doubt him, he said "i am breaking the seals, good day". Its no small thing. But even though we can see her reasoning, we still grow annoyed, because of what we know as the reader. You cant help it. I am sure every single one of us felt a spike of at least irritation when she said she would stop him.

 

 

 

Do we really know that? I didn't do much more than quickly skim through the last book that came out so maybe I missed something. Or maybe Rand was counting on her reacting that way because it might also be important she stops him from doing so somehow.

[Fbombs]

 

I don´t think it´s her age that does it. It´s her unrealistic care for the Tower. We could argue Rand was only this 20ish young man, why would people follow him. But he can channel, and he has fulfilled a number of prophecies, he has aiel friends, LTT for advice and so on. What does Egwene have?

When we are on this note I´ve seen on these forums people say w/e you say something bad of Eggy you are an Egwene hater... why? Because you think her arc is not realistic?

 

I don't think the way she completely throws herself behind things, to the point of breaking friendships is that unbelievable. It's her only claim to fame really and way of staying important relative to the other main characters. Throwing out military anecdotes probably gets annoying after a while, but it was actually pretty common to see people do complete character transformations when given the chance to move up in ranks or responsibility. Egwene seems like one of those. Nothing wrong with it, just makes your head spin lol.

[Puny]

 

I don´t think it´s her age that does it. It´s her unrealistic care for the Tower. We could argue Rand was only this 20ish young man, why would people follow him. But he can channel, and he has fulfilled a number of prophecies, he has aiel friends, LTT for advice and so on. What does Egwene have?

When we are on this note I´ve seen on these forums people say w/e you say something bad of Eggy you are an Egwene hater... why? Because you think her arc is not realistic?

 

I don't think the way she completely throws herself behind things, to the point of breaking friendships is that unbelievable. It's her only claim to fame really and way of staying important relative to the other main characters. Throwing out military anecdotes probably gets annoying after a while, but it was actually pretty common to see people do complete character transformations when given the chance to move up in ranks or responsibility. Egwene seems like one of those. Nothing wrong with it, just makes your head spin lol.

 

If Rand wanted Egwene to stop him from breaking the seals, then the option would be easy. Don´t break the seals Rand. He is trying to get her to understand, even though she doesn´t he is gonna go through with his plan. I do think Rand was counting on her to react that way, he knows her. And Egwene has never had a particulary fond opinion of Rand even when they were in the Two Rivers, as Rand recognizes.

I don´t think the only reason for her to be so immersed in WT and all their business is because it´s her only claim to fame, although I can´t argue with you that being Amyrlin throws you in the heart of things. She is 18... maybe it´s easier for her to strive to be "the perfect Amyrlin" cause she adopted that as her identity.

[Muad Cheade]

Rand Sedai really put that little girl in her place.

 

It is unrealistic that a mere 18 year old would be made Amyrlin. Sure these so-called Aes Sedai are half-wits, but come on.

It's also unrealistic that a twenty three year old would conquer half a continent, another has the memories of hundreds of dead men, and a third can talk to wolves. It's a fantasy series. The name itself states that it's inherently "unrealistic."

 

Besides Muad, Im not the one that wanted graves to 23 oaks =P...

We all have our moments.

 

I don´t think it´s her age that does it. It´s her unrealistic care for the Tower. We could argue Rand was only this 20ish young man, why would people follow him. But he can channel, and he has fulfilled a number of prophecies, he has aiel friends, LTT for advice and so on. What does Egwene have?

I don't get this point. Egwene can channel as well, earned the loyalty of the Wise Ones, unified the Tower...

 

When we are on this note I´ve seen on these forums people say w/e you say something bad of Eggy you are an Egwene hater... why? Because you think her arc is not realistic?

Eh. It's the nature of things. I've seen it go both ways.

 

 

2. WE KNOW that Rand has to break the seals. We know Rand is right, and is definitely more capable than Egwene in these matters. Even though Egwene has perfect right to doubt him, he said "i am breaking the seals, good day". Its no small thing. But even though we can see her reasoning, we still grow annoyed, because of what we know as the reader. You cant help it. I am sure every single one of us felt a spike of at least irritation when she said she would stop him.

 

 

 

Do we really know that? I didn't do much more than quickly skim through the last book that came out so maybe I missed something. Or maybe Rand was counting on her reacting that way because it might also be important she stops him from doing so somehow.

I wasn't irritated in the least. Rand is attempting to break the seals without any follow up plan. He opens the Bore, then what?

 

 

I don´t think it´s her age that does it. It´s her unrealistic care for the Tower. We could argue Rand was only this 20ish young man, why would people follow him. But he can channel, and he has fulfilled a number of prophecies, he has aiel friends, LTT for advice and so on. What does Egwene have?

When we are on this note I´ve seen on these forums people say w/e you say something bad of Eggy you are an Egwene hater... why? Because you think her arc is not realistic?

 

I don't think the way she completely throws herself behind things, to the point of breaking friendships is that unbelievable. It's her only claim to fame really and way of staying important relative to the other main characters. Throwing out military anecdotes probably gets annoying after a while, but it was actually pretty common to see people do complete character transformations when given the chance to move up in ranks or responsibility. Egwene seems like one of those. Nothing wrong with it, just makes your head spin lol.

What friendships has she broken? The fact that she gives 100% in ever task she sets herself to is bad? And what character transformations?

 

 

I don´t think it´s her age that does it. It´s her unrealistic care for the Tower. We could argue Rand was only this 20ish young man, why would people follow him. But he can channel, and he has fulfilled a number of prophecies, he has aiel friends, LTT for advice and so on. What does Egwene have?

When we are on this note I´ve seen on these forums people say w/e you say something bad of Eggy you are an Egwene hater... why? Because you think her arc is not realistic?

 

I don't think the way she completely throws herself behind things, to the point of breaking friendships is that unbelievable. It's her only claim to fame really and way of staying important relative to the other main characters. Throwing out military anecdotes probably gets annoying after a while, but it was actually pretty common to see people do complete character transformations when given the chance to move up in ranks or responsibility. Egwene seems like one of those. Nothing wrong with it, just makes your head spin lol.

 

If Rand wanted Egwene to stop him from breaking the seals, then the option would be easy. Don´t break the seals Rand. He is trying to get her to understand, even though she doesn´t he is gonna go through with his plan. I do think Rand was counting on her to react that way, he knows her. And Egwene has never had a particulary fond opinion of Rand even when they were in the Two Rivers, as Rand recognizes.

I don´t think the only reason for her to be so immersed in WT and all their business is because it´s her only claim to fame, although I can´t argue with you that being Amyrlin throws you in the heart of things. She is 18... maybe it´s easier for her to strive to be "the perfect Amyrlin" cause she adopted that as her identity.

What plan? What is he going to do after breaking the seals? Maybe she just loves the Tower. That's plausible right? I don't think any of our Two Rivers people have changed. Despite their titles and wealth and prominence, they remain the same characters we met in tEotW.

[Puny]

Rand Sedai really put that little girl in her place.

 

It is unrealistic that a mere 18 year old would be made Amyrlin. Sure these so-called Aes Sedai are half-wits, but come on.

It's also unrealistic that a twenty three year old would conquer half a continent, another has the memories of hundreds of dead men, and a third can talk to wolves. It's a fantasy series. The name itself states that it's inherently "unrealistic."

 

 

I know it´s a fantasy series, maybe I should have been more clearer. It´s unrealistic in the world that RJ has created,as in the arc that she has gone through and the means, situations and things that she has gone through to feel as she does for the Tower and be a super Aes Sedai. There isn´t IMO enough situations or outer/inner events to show her transformation or chargrowth or w/e you wanna call it. While Rand on the other hand you see the struggles, and the situations/happenings presented makes you understand why people fear him, follow him and so forth.

 

 

I don´t think the only reason for her to be so immersed in WT and all their business is because it´s her only claim to fame, although I can´t argue with you that being Amyrlin throws you in the heart of things. She is 18... maybe it´s easier for her to strive to be "the perfect Amyrlin" cause she adopted that as her identity.

What plan? What is he going to do after breaking the seals? Maybe she just loves the Tower. That's plausible right? I don't think any of our Two Rivers people have changed. Despite their titles and wealth and prominence, they remain the same characters we met in tEotW.

 

I think it´s plausible that she likes the Tower and sees a need for it, but as it shows now she has a deep passion for the Tower and wants to be the best Amyrlin and she is ubergood at it, in my mind that isn´t plausible.

I´m sure Rand Sedai has a plan after breaking the seals... that is my only argument lol.

 

Edit: Im sorry for all the weird boxes, I suck at quoting.

[Muad Cheade]

Egwene hunted te Black Ajah, endured rigorous trainig with the Wise Ones, had wrest power from the Hall, endured captivity and unified the Tower. I think when you examine those periods of her story, you definitely notice character growth.

 

And no, Rand really doesn't. Min figuring it out is what he's counting/praying on.

[MasterAblar]

Whether Rand has a plan or not doesn't really matter. What matters is whether Egwene knows that or not. And she has not once voice the reason for her opposition to Rand breaking the seals as being a lack of a plan. Not to Darlin, not Nyneave and Elayne, and not to the Wise Ones. In fact she even told Nyneave and Elayne that he should be able to seal away the DO without breaking the seals. So she doesn't really seem to care about his lack of a plan, only that he means to break the seals.

 

Besides Rand never said he meant to break the seals without a plan, only that he didn't have the answers yet, this taking place a month before the meeting at Merilor, so she has no reason to doubt that Rand will have a plan when he breaks the seals.

[Puny]

Egwene hunted te Black Ajah, endured rigorous trainig with the Wise Ones, had wrest power from the Hall, endured captivity and unified the Tower. I think when you examine those periods of her story, you definitely notice character growth.

 

And no, Rand really doesn't. Min figuring it out is what he's counting/praying on.

 

Those things you mentioned that Egwene does doesn´t support any character growth. Her internal monologue and her thought process are the same. Im on LoC on my reread and she is with the Aiel, and her thoughts on why she acts as she does, and what she thinks about people are the same as when she went away from EF in my opinion. Maybe charachter growth is not what´s planned in Egwene´s arc, and that´s why I don´t like her (i believe a good story requires character growth, or change... note though, this is my personal opinion)

[Elan Tedronai]

character growth? sigh. have you missed how she was trasnformed from a woman who was scorned by her own hall as she was seeing of mat and co to find the bowl of winds to actually smacking down the aes sedai in TOM when they tried to go behind her back?

 

i think you need to read books 6-12 again. this time read it slowly. I know it's hard. coz you got 7-10 which are complete shit books and absolute waste of time.

 

 

and by the way, The lord dragon has no plan after breaking the seals. He has been reduced to asking the help of a farm girl lover. Still i like min so i have no problems with that.

[Hopefire]

character growth? sigh. have you missed how she was trasnformed from a woman who was scorned by her own hall as she was seeing of mat and co to find the bowl of winds to actually smacking down the aes sedai in TOM when they tried to go behind her back?

 

i think you need to read books 6-12 again. this time read it slowly. I know it's hard. coz you got 7-10 which are complete shit books and absolute waste of time.

 

and by the way, The lord dragon has no plan after breaking the seals. He has been reduced to asking the help of a farm girl lover. Still i like min so i have no problems with that.

 

Each of the Emond's Fields characters has grown.

 

Mat is now the greatest general of his time, perhaps the greatest of all time.

 

Perrin might be the ideal king, and has essentially forged a nation out of nothing through hard work and determination to do the right thing.

 

Nynaeve is quite likely the greatest healer of all time, and of living characters only Rand, Moiraine and Cadsuane have equal or greater claim to the title of Aes Sedai.

 

Rand has re-become the greatest person who lived during the Age of Legends. He's a walking weapon of mass destruction. His mere presence pushes back the touch of the Dark One from the Pattern.

 

Egwene has won the respect of the third largest group of channelers in the world (assuming that there are still more Aes Sedai than Asha'man), and is respected by women in one of the larger groups (the Aiel). Egwene has excellent control of the bureaucracy of her institution, and has recently won and epic victory over another career bureaucrat (in all fairness, the battleground with the other bureaucrat was TAR, and the other bureaucrat was probably suffering from PTSD after being sexually assaulted by a fade a few weeks before, and might not have had her A-game). Egwene has also proven that when she has a sa'angreal she is stronger than women who don't have a sa'angreal, and that she isn't completely useless in a fight where she has far, far more firepower than anyone else on the battlefield.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note: I'm basing the idea that the Aiel have more channelers on the number of channeling Wise Ones that the Shaido had. If I recall, it was given as being 500-600 or so. Therefore, there should be about 6,000 to 7,200 Wise Ones that can channel, which dwarfs the size of the White Tower even with the recruitment surge. That wouldn't be too surprising, as the Aiel recruit every woman who channel and they don't breed the ability out the population - Wise Ones continue to marry and have children, which would raise the population per-capita of channelers.

[Suttree]

Besides Rand never said he meant to break the seals without a plan, only that he didn't have the answers yet, this taking place a month before the meeting at Merilor, so she has no reason to doubt that Rand will have a plan when he breaks the seals.

 

He doesn't have the answers, who knows if or when he would be able to figure it out? There is all the reason in the world for Egwene to doubt and want to discuss a course of action, especially with something like this that could destroy the world.

 

In addition Egwene does bring up the topic of Rand not having a plan..

 

ToM "The Amyrlin's Anger"

 

"We must talk about this she said," she said. "Plan"

 

Each of the Emond's Fields characters has grown.

 

Mat is now the greatest general of his time, perhaps the greatest of all time.

 

Egwene has won the respect of the third largest group of channelers in the world (assuming that there are still more Aes Sedai than Asha'man), and is respected by women in one of the larger groups (the Aiel). Egwene has excellent control of the bureaucracy of her institution, and has recently won and epic victory over another career bureaucrat (in all fairness, the battleground with the other bureaucrat was TAR, and the other bureaucrat was probably suffering from PTSD after being sexually assaulted by a fade a few weeks before, and might not have had her A-game). Egwene has also proven that when she has a sa'angreal she is stronger than women who don't have a sa'angreal, and that she isn't completely useless in a fight where she has far, far more firepower than anyone else on the battlefield.

 

Kind of funny, the derisive way you describe Egwene's accomplishments when in reality Mat is the only character who did absolutely zero work to earn the skills you list as growth.

[tipwong]

I personnally think egwene is walking the some how similiar path as Rand. She become frustrated that her own allies don't work with her somehow the same with the frustration Rand facing the noble, Aiel , Aes Sadai etc. Whether Rand sat he will break the seals or not she as head of WT should consider how to reseal the bore, because sooner or later dark one will break free.

[Puny]

character growth? sigh. have you missed how she was trasnformed from a woman who was scorned by her own hall as she was seeing of mat and co to find the bowl of winds to actually smacking down the aes sedai in TOM when they tried to go behind her back?

 

i think you need to read books 6-12 again. this time read it slowly. I know it's hard. coz you got 7-10 which are complete shit books and absolute waste of time.

 

 

and by the way, The lord dragon has no plan after breaking the seals. He has been reduced to asking the help of a farm girl lover. Still i like min so i have no problems with that.

 

I love book 6 =) And I´m currently reading book 6 and AFAISee Egwene, she is the same as she was in EF. I know what is coming up in the story though so I´ma pay attention.

I was not talking about her actions, (ofc they have changed and grown) but her internal monologue and her thoughtprocess, and for me, they have not changed. She is still thinking the same about say Rand even thought both she and Rand have been through external changes and Rand has gone through an internal change.

[David Selig]

Perrin might be the ideal king, and has essentially forged a nation out of nothing through hard work and determination to do the right thing.

Perrin would be a mediocre king at best, he has no idea about politics and governing apart from "leave it to Faile" and "let the my'taveren luck take care of this while I have no clue". What hard work? Whining about Faile, hiding from his responsibilities most of the time?

 

A bit offtopic, but I just had to vent a bit. I really don't understand the whole idea that Perrin would be a great king. Apart from the ta'veren luck, which would probably be gone soon.