The Black Tower and Rand

[Bluedust9]

I have said it once and i have said it again. the kal has been destroyed because using them would make AMOL the most boring book in the history of anything. The kal in the hands of a guy like logain would practically render each and every minion of the great lord completely useless. The last battle would be a 5 minute procession walk. destroying the kal gives the chance of battles to happen.

 

 

Ofcourse the author had to come up with an excuse. You don't simply destroy a tool that cleansed saidin without an excuse. So they have come up with......ITS TOO DANGEROUS TO USE! Apparently not dangerous enough to cleanse saidin with it. With the kal thousands of lives could be saved from the hordes of trollocs, fades, draghars and whatever te blight releases. ALl those poor bordermen at those towers would be chilling and smoking whilst blast after blast from the mightiest sangreal hits the blight. Hell a whole barrier can be erected if someone was feeling a bit humane to the poor trollocs

 

 

 

But hey where's the action in that? SOmetimes you gotta give the bad guys a chance. Which is why i think it's not entirely rand's fault for ignoring the BT. It's the author who steered it in that directiuon. Clearly RJ was looking for something to blow up and he practically gave it away in book 7 when elaida had her fortelling of BT will be rent in fire and blood. And the only way that foretelling was going to happen is for rand to completely ignore the BT long enough for the shadow to do their machinations.

 

[plague fiend]

Rand feared Dark Friends and he has killed many of them. He feared Trollocs and has killed thousands of them. Rand fears the Forsaken and he has faced and killed several of them. He fears the DO and he plans to face him at SG. Taim has given him several reasons to distrust him, not to mention the fact that Rand only trusts a couple of people. Fear has nothing to do with it. It is written this way for a reason. It is not the first time RJ wrote something that didn't add-up.

[ShenAnCalhar]

I have said it once and i have said it again. the kal has been destroyed because using them would make AMOL the most boring book in the history of anything. The kal in the hands of a guy like logain would practically render each and every minion of the great lord completely useless. The last battle would be a 5 minute procession walk. destroying the kal gives the chance of battles to happen.

 

 

Ofcourse the author had to come up with an excuse. You don't simply destroy a tool that cleansed saidin without an excuse. So they have come up with......ITS TOO DANGEROUS TO USE! Apparently not dangerous enough to cleanse saidin with it. With the kal thousands of lives could be saved from the hordes of trollocs, fades, draghars and whatever te blight releases. ALl those poor bordermen at those towers would be chilling and smoking whilst blast after blast from the mightiest sangreal hits the blight. Hell a whole barrier can be erected if someone was feeling a bit humane to the poor trollocs

 

This is funny, and sums up many of my same thoughts/frustrations. Might as well destroy any object of power, because it could fall into the hands of the Shadow. Then again, since Rand can now foretell the future enough to know that no one in the entire WT would try to shield him, and can obliterate massive hordes of Shadowspawn without an angreal, who really needs it anymore, right?

 

I need to stop being so bitter about this, but it's difficult.

[FarShainMael]

Perhaps Rand destroyed the CK as a sort of nose-thumb at the DO.

 

He had been on the verge of using the power that the CK gave him to break the world again, this time beyond repair. He was on the brink, teetering on the edge of a blade. He decided to come down on the side of Light, and to emphasise his choice he threw the CK figuratively into the face of the DO.

 

The BT, however.. that's a different problem. I simply can't believe he just let Taim get on with things, insanity or struggling with LTT notwithstanding. I can't help feeling that another rabbit is about to be pulled out of a hat, in that Rand had set something or someone up to pull the rug out from under Taim's feet when the time came.

[patb91]

part of the reason the Rand didn't want to go back to the BT is the fact that Taim hates him, Taim feels that he should be the Dragon and can't hide his distain for the true Dragon. However, Taim is powerful- nearly as strong as Rand- and skilled in the use of the power, a confrontation between Taim and Rand could easily turn into a battle that could go either way. Even with the BT becoming a threat, the would cannot afford to lose the Dragon before the Last Battle.

[Superhal]

I didn't see this mentioned yet, but Taim knew how to test men who could channel, and he already knew a surprising number of weaves, e.g. healing. He knew far more than Rand about the OP. Taim was much more qualified at that point than Rand to become the principal/head teacher/recruiter of the BT.

[Manscher]

Rand's too worried or too scared to go and check out the BT? LOL. The guy has had the choedan kal and callandor for the better part of 6 books. Infact he has a whole faction that is loyal to him who in turn are loyal to logain too. Countless wise ones and Aes sedai support. Strength in numbers is not an issue for the DR.

 

Rand was quite scared of losing control over Saidin and himself to LTT when Taim was around. I personally wouldn't entrust a mad voice in my head in a fight against Taim and I doubt Rand would either. The CHoedan Kal and Callandor are invalid arguments, as he did not have access to either of those after the cleansing. Besides I doubt it would be a good idea to use either in a situation where LTT could suddenly snatch Saidin from him and lay destruction to all channelers around him.

Because of rand pussyfooting around one my fave characters tarna has been turned to the shadow. Unforgiveable. He went all the way to far madin place just to hunt out and kill those taim cronies. But he could not spare a minute to check on the BT.

You can hardly blame Rand for Tarnas situation. It was their idea to go to The Black Tower BEHIND Rands back.

As for running around in Far Madding, it was actually a rather clever move of him to go there, he knew that the renegade Asha'man put to much faith in their channelling and were to arrogant to ever learn how to fight without. So going to an area where nobody is capable of channelling gave Rand a huge advantage, especially when having Lan with you as well.

 

 

 

Oh and regarding the CK, besides the points mentioned regarding it being to dangerous, there is also the simple case that Rand had simply drawn to much of the One Power and he had to get rid of it somehow. Driving it into the Access Key was perhaps the safest way to get rid of all that Power.

[Suttree]

The CHoedan Kal and Callandor are invalid arguments, as he did not have access to either of those after the cleansing.

 

Why didn't he have access to the CK? I don't recall that...

[Manscher]

Cadsuane took it from him, it was not until after she was exiled he got it back.

[XXX]

Taim did his job one way or the other..Rand has more than 1/2 of the BT working for him on the field...even if Taim and his followers are Dark friends(100-200),that still leaves more than 800 trained Asha'man for Rand to use.

[Apple13]

Rand probably had too much to do, with trying to get all the other countries to support him. Taim seemed like a good idea at the beginning, because he was one of the best saidin channelers and the men in the BT needed to be taught. Rand probably thought that if he was put as the leader of the Black Tower, Taim would be out of direct conflict with Rand himself, and might not be too jealous of Rand. I don't think Rand figured on Taim being so ambitious or a darkfriend.

 

I think the only thing wrong with the way Rand dealt with the Black Tower was the way he kind of ignored the signs that Taim was a darkfriend, or at least that Taim had aspirations beyond his station as Rand`s `second`. Taim was shown to be arrogant from quite early on, like when he taunted Bashere, or when he claimed to save Rand by killing the Grayman that Rand had already taken care of. Any of the other main characters would have noticed his character immediately, and the least Rand should have done is had regular (maybe monthly) visits to the Black Tower to make sure things were alright. Just making Taim write letters to him wasn`t enough, since he had no reason to believe that Taim would be completely truthful. Even when Logain himself told Rand that Taim was annoyed with being the `false Dragon`, Rand didn`t go to personally visit the Black Tower to see things for himself, and instead sent another man in his place(who only managed to get turned anyway).

[OptimusPrime]

Then again, since Rand can now foretell the future enough to know that no one in the entire WT would try to shield him

 

Um. I disagree with this. He didnt know that because he can see the future. He knew it because his will affects the Pattern. He can bend people to his will, we have seen it before.

 

As for Rand missing signs of Taims Darkfriendness, exactly how many of these signs has Rand seen himself? Not as many as we have.

[Ananta]

I think he just stayed out because the plot wanted Black Tower to grow über evil and that wasnt possible had Rand actually possessed half a brain.

[Elan Tedronai]

I think he just stayed out because the plot wanted Black Tower to grow über evil and that wasnt possible had Rand actually possessed half a brain.

 

 

exactly.

 

the author made rand look dumb. any competent leader would be on the first flight to andor the moment taim's cronies were dispatched with the kal and a few hundred AM/AS body guards

[XXX]

LTT from the start thought that making the CK's was a collosal mistake..but the other AS never listened to him. In truth he was right..the access keys were lost in areas controlled by the Shadow. What if they had used it?..game set and match.

 

When Rand reintegrated LTT's personality he felt the same way and decided to get rid of it.

[XXX]

LTT from the start thought that making the CK's was a collosal mistake..but the other AS never listened to him. In truth he was right..the access keys were lost in areas controlled by the Shadow. What if they had used it?..game set and match.

 

When Rand reintegrated LTT's personality he felt the same way and decided to get rid of it.

[Superhal]

Taim did his job one way or the other..Rand has more than 1/2 of the BT working for him on the field...even if Taim and his followers are Dark friends(100-200),that still leaves more than 800 trained Asha'man for Rand to use.

 

Anybody know the current distribution of AM outside of the BT?

 

Afaik:

w/Perrin: 2

w/Rand's personal retinue: ~4?

w/Logain: 2-?

w/Itulrade: ~4-8?

Bonded to sisters but not at the BT: 2 at Salidar, but maybe more?

 

I think remember something like Logain took half his supporters (~200?) or his two best (2)?

[The Fallen One]

Well, there is an awesome excuse for him not doing anything about the Black Tower... He is crazy and completely paranoid, even more so around other male channelers, so he invents excuses not to deal with it. You cannot make the argument that his craziness has not kept him from understanding other problems and dealing with, because it has. You could really go as far to say that the only reason Rand has succeed in any aspect is that chance is on his side. Good first example of Rand doing something dumb would be all of TDR. It may have ended well for him, but really only because everything came together in his favor. Another example would be him running to avenge Morgase, he would be dead if it was not for Nynaeve being there by chance. Truth is there is a long history of Rand making crazy decisions so the Black Tower should come as no surprise. Heck, it was crazy for him to make it in the first place. If Rand had been sane he would not have done it until Saidin was cleansed.

 

As far as the CK being destroyed, there is a much more simple explanation for it being destroyed then it being dangerous. (Although that is probably what a lot of characters would say, simply because the idea of it is scary to them.) Rand did it for a more personal reason. It was a symbol for the morally gray things he used it for during TGS, destroying it was part of him accepting what he did and moving on.

[XXX]

Taim did his job one way or the other..Rand has more than 1/2 of the BT working for him on the field...even if Taim and his followers are Dark friends(100-200),that still leaves more than 800 trained Asha'man for Rand to use.

 

Anybody know the current distribution of AM outside of the BT?

 

Afaik:

w/Perrin: 2

w/Rand's personal retinue: ~4?

w/Logain: 2-?

w/Itulrade: ~4-8?

Bonded to sisters but not at the BT: 2 at Salidar, but maybe more?

 

I think remember something like Logain took half his supporters (~200?) or his two best (2)?

 

100 were with Itulrade..the rest should be in Illian and Tear. Logain took more than half of the tower out on the Dragon's direction. The AM nos are close to the AS levels so more than 500 must be out of the BT.

[Elan Tedronai]

LTT from the start thought that making the CK's was a collosal mistake..but the other AS never listened to him. In truth he was right..the access keys were lost in areas controlled by the Shadow. What if they had used it?..game set and match.

 

When Rand reintegrated LTT's personality he felt the same way and decided to get rid of it.

 

 

you're having a laugh.

 

a clossal mistake? just exactly how did you think saidin was cleansed? do you know who was responsible for tainting it in the first place? do you know what would have happened if the woman joined the men as LTT wanted?

[Manscher]

Doesn't change the fact that he found the thing to be a mistake. A simple tool that any channeler basically could use to burn away the wheel itself, that is like handing out nuclear launch codes for free on the internet..

[XXX]

LTT from the start thought that making the CK's was a collosal mistake..but the other AS never listened to him. In truth he was right..the access keys were lost in areas controlled by the Shadow. What if they had used it?..game set and match.

 

When Rand reintegrated LTT's personality he felt the same way and decided to get rid of it.

 

 

you're having a laugh.

 

a clossal mistake? just exactly how did you think saidin was cleansed? do you know who was responsible for tainting it in the first place? do you know what would have happened if the woman joined the men as LTT wanted?

 

If LTT did not do what he did..the battle was lost. There was nothing else to do,the armies of the shadow was winning and the access keys were lost in areas won by the shadow.

 

Yes..Saiden was cleaned using the CK's but that was not what it was made for.

[idiostock]

Ignore the troll and move on

[Kahsm]

Troll-ness asside.

 

Rand doesn't have the knowledge RJ gave us in an interview. In theory, he might try to seal the bore the way LTT originally wanted to (with men and women) and he would certainly have Egwene's help (and if you don't agree with that he has WOs, Wind finders, and likely Elayne's Kin). Both powers would end up tainted, and there would be no Sa'Angreal powerful enough to cleanse it because Rand destroyed it (assuming you find another evil like Shadar Logoth).

 

The point is, Rand proved how useful a tool it is, given that he didn't make it... but used it to save people... should he break it when others could use it in the future?

[mb]

part of the reason the Rand didn't want to go back to the BT is the fact that Taim hates him

Not sure if Rand was/is aware of that hate.

There have been others Rand knew hated him, and Rand did not avoid dealing with them. And most of them might be considered more dangerous than Taim.