Moridin's Saa

[A Rant Lord]

Hi y'all,

 

I don't know if this has been discussed yet. I have seen a lot of posts where there is talk about the Guardians protection and the TP not falling under it etc.

I thought this idea didn't suit the topic so I made a new topic. It isn't much of an idea, but I just always keep remembering: Jordan NEVER puts anything in the book without reason.

 

There is so much mentioning of "How could Moridin acquire so much Saa in such short instance, that I thought it relevant to try and think of what he could have done with the TP in such short time to acquire it. traveling and ordinary use seems highly doubtfull. I mean, it's the DO's champ etc. so he's not an idiot. He has required so much Saa by using the TP making preparations that were unable to make with Saiding IMO. Like disguising etc.

 

Now, I'm not the huge theory maker, so I started this thread to maybe stir up some thoughts and get a discussion going: What are your thoughts?

[seanzor]

Hi y'all,

 

I don't know if this has been discussed yet. I have seen a lot of posts where there is talk about the Guardians protection and the TP not falling under it etc.

I thought this idea didn't suit the topic so I made a new topic. It isn't much of an idea, but I just always keep remembering: Jordan NEVER puts anything in the book without reason.

 

There is so much mentioning of "How could Moridin acquire so much Saa in such short instance, that I thought it relevant to try and think of what he could have done with the TP in such short time to acquire it. traveling and ordinary use seems highly doubtfull. I mean, it's the DO's champ etc. so he's not an idiot. He has required so much Saa by using the TP making preparations that were unable to make with Saiding IMO. Like disguising etc.

 

Now, I'm not the huge theory maker, so I started this thread to maybe stir up some thoughts and get a discussion going: What are your thoughts?

I think it's because his encounter with Rand, made it so he felt sick when grasping saidin just like Rand. So rather than feel sick he channels the true power, also if I'm not mistaken I think Ishamael is notorious for using too much true power

[Barid Bel Medar]

Moridin does not use the OP any more. he uses the TP exclusively.

 

He certainly has enough time to do alot of stuff with the TP.

 

Incidently, do we actually know the TP usage as a proportion to the growth of the saa?

 

Or if the strength/ amount of TP channeled increases the saa rate?

 

For all we know just holding the TP creates the same growth of saa as using as much of the TP as one can.

[Dakota]

From what I remember, during his stint as Darth Rand, someone (I think Nynaeve) made a comment about there being something wrong with his eyes. So even if he doesn't have any visible saa, there's definately a hint of something going on. And the only time he channeled the TP was when he killed Semi and Elza. If this 'something wrong' is indeed connected with the saa, it definately implies that it doesn't take a whole lot of TP usage to start getting them in greater numbers. And, as Barid mentioned, Moridin uses the TP exclusively, every thing he's done with the power almost since his introduction has been with the TP. It would definately explain how he's got so many in such a short time.

[capuga]

From what I remember, during his stint as Darth Rand, someone (I think Nynaeve) made a comment about there being something wrong with his eyes. So even if he doesn't have any visible saa, there's definately a hint of something going on. And the only time he channeled the TP was when he killed Semi and Elza. If this 'something wrong' is indeed connected with the saa, it definately implies that it doesn't take a whole lot of TP usage to start getting them in greater numbers. And, as Barid mentioned, Moridin uses the TP exclusively, every thing he's done with the power almost since his introduction has been with the TP. It would definately explain how he's got so many in such a short time.

 

That was directly after Rand had Semi's fireball explode in his face. His eyes were temporarily injured by the bright fireball.

[Dakota]

From what I remember, during his stint as Darth Rand, someone (I think Nynaeve) made a comment about there being something wrong with his eyes. So even if he doesn't have any visible saa, there's definately a hint of something going on. And the only time he channeled the TP was when he killed Semi and Elza. If this 'something wrong' is indeed connected with the saa, it definately implies that it doesn't take a whole lot of TP usage to start getting them in greater numbers. And, as Barid mentioned, Moridin uses the TP exclusively, every thing he's done with the power almost since his introduction has been with the TP. It would definately explain how he's got so many in such a short time.

 

That was directly after Rand had Semi's fireball explode in his face. His eyes were temporarily injured by the bright fireball.

 

I stand corrected.

[dholm]

Presumably all of the Chosen have used the True Power to some extent, but only Moridin has the saa -- I think it is safe to say that you need to use it often to develop them in the first place.

 

It still does not give us a minimum benchmark, but it is indicative.

 

Demandred also thinks of how Moridin must have used the True Power exclusively to develop that many saa so quickly. He probably uses it as often as most other channelers use the One Power, even for inconsequential things (like fetching a goblet from across the room).

[yoniy0]

Presumably all of the Chosen have used the True Power to some extent, but only Moridin has the saa

That's a very good point. How does Demandred even knows what amount of TP usage leads to the level of saa-development Moridin's experiencing? If Ishamael was the only one to ever get them, well then....

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

Presumably all of the Chosen have used the True Power to some extent, but only Moridin has the saa -- I think it is safe to say that you need to use it often to develop them in the first place.

 

It still does not give us a minimum benchmark, but it is indicative.

 

Demandred also thinks of how Moridin must have used the True Power exclusively to develop that many saa so quickly. He probably uses it as often as most other channelers use the One Power, even for inconsequential things (like fetching a goblet from across the room).

 

Can you imagine Moridin doing mundane things with the essence of the GLoD? I'm sure that would go over real well. Hmmm no toilet paper here in the blight...

 

or

 

"Hey Great Lord it's me Moridin, how are you? I'm great...so I have a little idea I want to throw at you. And I mean you could say no if you want to, but I'm pretty sure it will be flaming great. Ever heard of giving yourself the stranger? Well, I was thinking, you know...with the TP and all...

[Barid Bel Medar]

Presumably all of the Chosen have used the True Power to some extent, but only Moridin has the saa

That's a very good point. How does Demandred even knows what amount of TP usage leads to the level of saa-development Moridin's experiencing? If Ishamael was the only one to ever get them, well then....

 

All of the chosen have used, or had access to the TP.

 

Moggy comments on it saying something like 29 people have had access to the TP.

 

Cant find the direct quote, Im afraid, I dont have the book with me here.

 

So I cant be sure, those 29 people may not have included all of the Forsaken, but i seem to recall that it was said, or at least made out to be.

 

I believe Demandred, Moggy, Aginor and Graendal are the only other Forsaken to have actually mentioned having access to the TP.

 

Moggy saying it terrified her. Demandred commenting on the fact only moridin can use it now. Aginor created the trollocs with a mixture of TP and OP, and of course, Graendal in ToM.

[dholm]

Presumably all of the Chosen have used the True Power to some extent, but only Moridin has the saa

That's a very good point. How does Demandred even knows what amount of TP usage leads to the level of saa-development Moridin's experiencing? If Ishamael was the only one to ever get them, well then....

 

In all likelihood, there were Chosen back in the Age of Legends who used the True Power enough to develop the saa.

 

Presumably all of the Chosen have used the True Power to some extent, but only Moridin has the saa -- I think it is safe to say that you need to use it often to develop them in the first place.

 

It still does not give us a minimum benchmark, but it is indicative.

 

Demandred also thinks of how Moridin must have used the True Power exclusively to develop that many saa so quickly. He probably uses it as often as most other channelers use the One Power, even for inconsequential things (like fetching a goblet from across the room).

 

Can you imagine Moridin doing mundane things with the essence of the GLoD? I'm sure that would go over real well.

On the contrary, I think the Great Lord would be pleased. Remember how using the True Power affects the Pattern.

 

Even when the other Chosen were allowed to use the True Power, they refrained except in the most necessary of circumstances - because they knew how addictive and dangerous the True Power was. In my opinion, the reason only the Nae'blis can use the True Power is so that Moridin can reward the other Chosen when they have done well. What is addictive and no longer available becomes more seductive, so that when they finally get the right, they will use it just because they finally can.

[yoniy0]

All of the chosen have used, or had access to the TP.

In all likelihood, there were Chosen back in the Age of Legends who used the True Power enough to develop the saa.

Which was precisely my point. They all used it to some degree, but among 13 surviving Forsaken the only one to develop the saa was Ishamael. Either it has began before the Sealing (TEotW prologue seems to contradict that theory, though) - meaning he was the only one willing to use it as frequently as was required to achieve them - or he got them over the course of 3000 years - in which case none but Aginor and Balthemal could know exactly when it happened. In both cases, it seems positively unlikely to me that if any other Forsaken had them - a sample of roughly half would fail to contain a single one of them.

 

And then there's this:

Even when the other Chosen were allowed to use the True Power, they refrained except in the most necessary of circumstances - because they knew how addictive and dangerous the True Power was

Exactly.

 

Nevertheless, there's always the possibility of a correlation between those who refrained from using the TP and those who survived (like, say, in the case that several Forsaken have OD-ed on TP), so I guess everything is possible.

[Aliriel]

I remember reading somewhere, I can't remember if it was on these boards or somewhere else, about the theory that Ishy's "caverns of fire" for eyes was the (much) advanced form of saa, so possibly the amount that Morry has now is related to how far Ishy's soul was corrupted by the use of the TP and his new eyes are slowly decaying away into new "caverns".

 

A.

[yoniy0]

Oh, yeah, RJ said they were. But I got the impression that the damage the TP did was to the body, not the soul. Good idea, though. You may well be right. Still doesn't explain Demandred's insight, but that's beside the point.

[dholm]

All of the chosen have used, or had access to the TP.

In all likelihood, there were Chosen back in the Age of Legends who used the True Power enough to develop the saa.

Which was precisely my point. They all used it to some degree, but among 13 surviving Forsaken the only one to develop the saa was Ishamael. Either it has began before the Sealing (TEotW prologue seems to contradict that theory, though) - meaning he was the only one willing to use it as frequently as was required to achieve them - or he got them over the course of 3000 years - in which case none but Aginor and Balthemal could know exactly when it happened. In both cases, it seems positively unlikely to me that if any other Forsaken had them - a sample of roughly half would fail to contain a single one of them.

We cannot say for sure. We just do not have enough information regarding those days.

 

 

And then there's this:

Even when the other Chosen were allowed to use the True Power, they refrained except in the most necessary of circumstances - because they knew how addictive and dangerous the True Power was

Exactly.

 

Nevertheless, there's always the possibility of a correlation between those who refrained from using the TP and those who survived (like, say, in the case that several Forsaken have OD-ed on TP), so I guess everything is possible.

Perhaps... but I think the best guess we have is chance, at the moment. Without any other information, chance is as good a reason as any.

 

 

Oh, yeah, RJ said they were. But I got the impression that the damage the TP did was to the body, not the soul. Good idea, though. You may well be right. Still doesn't explain Demandred's insight, but that's beside the point.

Demandred did use the True Power at some point -- he knows at the very least how much of the True Power you can use without developing the saa. Perhaps it is not inconsiderable. That would explain his insight -- if developing saa takes massive (or constant) channeling of the True Power.

[yoniy0]

One point conceded, namely that Demandred has full knowledge of a boundary from below to the amount required. Having said that, he didn't seem to disbelieve that it's possible for Moridin to acquire them in such short a time, which suggests a closer knowledge of the mechanism at play here. Also, every last Forsaken we've seen knows about the saa, so obviously Moridin either developed them before the Sealing (again, that seems unlikely, for reasons mentioned above) or someone else did. If they did, what happened to them? It can't just be chance. The probabality of that happening is nil (assuming iid distribution). Unless the TP comes with an instruction leaflet (Take two before dinner. In some rare cases saa might appear. In the case of fiery eyes contact your physician immediately).

[rand4747]

One point conceded, namely that Demandred has full knowledge of a boundary from below to the amount required. Having said that, he didn't seem to disbelieve that it's possible for Moridin to acquire them in such short a time, which suggests a closer knowledge of the mechanism at play here. Also, every last Forsaken we've seen knows about the saa, so obviously Moridin either developed them before the Sealing (again, that seems unlikely, for reasons mentioned above) or someone else did. If they did, what happened to them? It can't just be chance. The probabality of that happening is nil (assuming iid distribution). Unless the TP comes with an instruction leaflet (Take two before dinner. In some rare cases saa might appear. In the case of fiery eyes contact your physician immediately).

 

 

There was probably more chosen than were sealed and they may have used the TP more or used it and died or anything else.

[Sharaman]

One point conceded, namely that Demandred has full knowledge of a boundary from below to the amount required. Having said that, he didn't seem to disbelieve that it's possible for Moridin to acquire them in such short a time, which suggests a closer knowledge of the mechanism at play here. Also, every last Forsaken we've seen knows about the saa, so obviously Moridin either developed them before the Sealing (again, that seems unlikely, for reasons mentioned above) or someone else did. If they did, what happened to them? It can't just be chance. The probabality of that happening is nil (assuming iid distribution). Unless the TP comes with an instruction leaflet (Take two before dinner. In some rare cases saa might appear. In the case of fiery eyes contact your physician immediately).

 

 

There was probably more chosen than were sealed and they may have used the TP more or used it and died or anything else.

We have the 29 TP-users number from Moggy's first conversation with Moridin. So it's at least that many - incidentally it suggests that Moggy had actually kept a log-book of some kind of TP users.

We have Moggy, Demandred, Graendal all displaying some knowledge of TP and all being scared of it.

We also have a statement (or several) from RJ about many other Chosen-Level channelers who weren't trapped by the Bore and died post-Breaking (or before, during the War). So it's perfectly possible that during the War of the Power (10-odd years of intense OP/TP usage) someone other than the 13 trapped in the Bore did use TP excessively and developed s'aa with the others taking note. Certainly Moggy seemed to know a lot about it, from her reactions to seeing s'aa.

[yoniy0]

I believe I said as much above. My point was that it's pushing credulity that none of those TP-wielding Forsaken-level saa-eyed channelers were among the 13 present at the Bore at the time of Sealing, unless there's an underlying reason why they wouldn't be.

[dholm]

I believe I said as much above. My point was that it's pushing credulity that none of those TP-wielding Forsaken-level saa-eyed channelers were among the 13 present at the Bore at the time of Sealing, unless there's an underlying reason why they wouldn't be.

Are you for some reason assuming that every Chosen other than the thirteen sealed in the Bore had the saa?

 

Ishamael most likely developed the saa prior to the sealing, and if two or three others did so as well, that is more than enough to confirm that the True Power is the cause. It does not stretch credulity overly much to assume they were either dead or busy elsewhere at the time.

[thevillagecouncil]

they could have died. It's not like all of them had to be alive at the point of the sealing.

 

Also, I like the idea of ishamels eyes of fire being advances Saa. that would be fun :P

[Bluedust9]

they could have died. It's not like all of them had to be alive at the point of the sealing.

 

Also, I like the idea of ishamels eyes of fire being advances Saa. that would be fun :P

 

RJ confirmed it is a result.

 

Edit: Grabbed the quote, it's long and I was going to just paste the paragraph but I found the whole thing cool:

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003 - https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcjspjqg_101f6s22v73&hl=en

 

Q: What about the saa? You wrote in a chapter, that there is a black hole before Moridin's eyes.

RJ: No, no, in the eyes. It is not before. In the eyes, inside the eyes.

Q: And can see through? (-?- unsure about this sentence. -?-)

RJ: It depends. When you are using the True Power. At first, when you begin using the True Power, there's nothing there. Nothing in the eyes. After you've used it for a while, you begin to have a black speck floating across your eyes, when you're using it.

Q: And then you see, other observers can see it.

RJ: No, you don't see it. You don't actually see it.

Q: I think it was the chapter when Moridin was observing with a cloak of fancloth. His vision was blurred by a rain of black spots.

H: But it didn't affect his vision.

RJ: It didn't affect his vision. You're aware of it, but it's not like there is blackness between you, because it gets thicker and thicker and thicker and you get to a point where if you've used it long enough you get a steady stream even if you're not connected. And you are then on the road, at that point, inevitably, to becoming what Ishamael was. Because these are stigmata, if you will. These saa are stigmata caused by a linkage to the Dark One. And eventually the effect is to become all fire eyes. You no longer have eyes visible to other people. If they're looking into your eyes, they seem to be looking into caverns of flame that stretch to infinity. And when you open your mouth they see another cavern of flame that stretches to infinity. Because you've reached at that point the ultimate level of this usage and quite possibly, if you've at this point not been granted immortality, you're on your way to death. Not madness, but you're on your way to death. So it's sort of a race. The Dark One has given you this boon, but if you use it very much, then you'd better hope he is willing to give you another boon, because if he doesn't give you the second boon then you're dead. Some of the Forsaken have expressed discomfort with the fact that Ishamael and Moridin are so free with using the True Power.

Q: And is it addictive?

RJ: Yes.

Q: Entirely.

RJ: So is the One Power. That's one of the things that I intended from the beginning. The One Power has at least the potential for good, and it is something used by those on the side of good. And it is addictive, physically and psychologically addictive and also potentially very dangerous, even deadly to those who are using it.

Q: And so the other Forsaken seem to be afraid of using the True Power?

RJ: Well, they are, because they know this; they will use it when they have to, but they limit it, because they know that if you use it enough to let the saa begin to appear, then you are on a spiral and once they begin appearing, they begin appearing more often. And eventually, unless you are given immortality by the Dark One, you are dead. Now, the thing is, they don't wanna die. This is really great, it is a really great honor to be given the ability to tap into the True Power. Which is not inherently stronger than the One Power. It's not that it is stronger in any way. It is just something that does not have some of the limitations of the One Power. Other people can't feel you embracing it, or using it, like the One Power.

Q: -?-

RJ: Yeah, you could.

Q: -?-

RJ: Yeah, you could burn out with the True Power.

Q: Only True Power, or One Power too?

RJ: With the True Power as well as the One Power you can burn out.

Q: Can you sever a person from the True Power with One Power?

RJ: Not in the same way. If you try to gentle a man or still a woman who's capable of using the True Power you'd have to use another method.

Q: So it is not only the Dark One who can stop giving the Forsaken the True Power, but they can be cut off as Asmodean was cut off.

RJ: Read and find out on Asmodean. I'm not gonna tell you.

RJ: They could be cut off, but the problem with that is, nobody knows how to do it. It is possible that some of the Forsaken themselves know how to do it, but nobody else does.

Q: What happens when Rand and Asmodean have this conflict and ...

Q1: ... and Rand severs his ties with the Dark One ...

Q2: ... and Rand severs some black ties. Isn't that ...

RJ: That was cutting off his protection from the Taint and also cut off his ability, it was not like stilling them. It was cutting the ties that, most important to him, protected him from the Taint on saidin, so he could draw saidin all he wanted to and never worry about the Taint. But it was also those ties that represented his ability, or the conduits by which he could draw on the True Power. But it was not his ability to draw, it was not the same thing as stilling or severing, it was more like shielding.

Q: To go back to what you were saying a few minutes ago, were you implying that you could channel the True Power without being granted immortality?

RJ: Oh yes.

[yoniy0]

Are you for some reason assuming that every Chosen other than the thirteen sealed in the Bore had the saa?

Absolutely not. Again, assuming that there exists no underlying correlation between those present at the Bore at the time of Sealing and those who refrained from excessive TP usage, and by that I mean to say that we assume a probabilistic model where each Forsaken present has some (even negligible) fixed probability of being one of those who developed the saa and they are independent of each other (simply put, they are a bunch of independent and identically distributed Bernoulli variables), it is very unlikely that not one of them would have the saa. Also, as mentioned above, TEotW prologue seems to imply that Moridin didn't have them back then, or else it should probably have been mentioned.

 

Of course, our focus is different, since we know for a fact that none present (perhaps excepting Ishamael) had them, and so we should be asking ourselves what the probability is of some among the 29 to develop the saa given that (a) none Sealed in the Bore had them, and (b) there is no particular correlation between the two properties. I should probably take more time to do the calculations properly. Or give in, since obviously none had, and Demandred has a working knowledge of the relevant mechanism, so at the most those calculations might imply that there is some correlation between the two (or that RJ didn't care about probability).

[dholm]

I am afraid my higher math skills do not extend quite that far. Bernoulli variables?

 

Perhaps the underlying correlation you are missing is them being careful -- which we know they were. If only a few careless individuals developed the saa, they probably--being careless--ended up dead in the power struggle between the Chosen.

[yoniy0]

Yes, I can see that. But it was you who said:

Without any other information, chance is as good a reason as any.

Which was the reason I argued who unlikely that made things.