First Time Reading the First Book

[Agitel]

Dealing with ta'veren is difficult for both readers and characeters in the story. The bad guys havent encountered this before, but I promise you that it's taken into account later, it's kind of subtle though.

[Pygmalion79]

I think that we've been given plenty of indications that Thom is not quite that helpless.

 

I don't think so. He didn't participate in the Winternight attack (though he did help out a bit in the aftermath). He didn't help in the escape from Baerlon (in fact, no one but Moiraine did anything in that escape). He did toss a few knives at some Trollocs as they fled Shadar Logoth but that was while the Trollocs were running away from him (so he got them in their backs). He's never been in a fight like this before in this book. Later we'll learn that he was a Court Bard but that doesn't sound like a combat MOS to me.

I wasn't referring to what we've been shown of Thom in Eye, where Thom is presented as no more than a simple Gleeman. The comment was written as if it were on the basis of everything we know through all 13 books, and on that basis it's misleading to say that Thom is as helpless as a five year old, even if we agree that he wouldn't best a Fade in straight combat.

[Agitel]

I wanted to comment on the Traveling People searching for the Song, and other such things. These things are very much religion to each of these cultures (the broader strokes of religion all cultures seem to share, but the particulars vary a bit). With regards to the Traveling People, there are reasons they search for the song, but for the most part I'm not sure they're actively searching so much as it's just become an ingrained part of their culture. Using it in greetings and such is more of a cultural formality than anything.

 

That's not to say they don't have beliefs around it, but are they themselves wandering specifically for it? Yes and no. You'll get more history on them later, which is the type of thing you like to gobble up. It'll make more sense then.

[RelentlessAttack]

Hi Sunny, first just wanted to say I've been enjoying your blog posts. You're a very talented writer and have some good comic timing :P

 

Just some observations on the most recent blog post:

 

First off, based on your interest in the history and cultures of the world, I think you'll like the Shadow Rising (book 4), or at least sections of it. It really expands the world and fills in a lot of historical blanks brought up in the first 3 books. So you should at least read that far. It also usually gets the majority of votes for favorite book in the series when someone makes a poll like that

 

Also, it wasn’t the Fade who was finding Rand before, you're probably figured that out by now given that you're partway through the great hunt

 

 

Domon’s crew are returning from a winter in Saldaea (one of the borderlands), they had just seen trollocs first hand, (and since they were Illian, most of them probably for the first time, excepting those who are Domon’s regulars). I agree though that it doesn't make sense for people in a trade center like whitebridge to not believe in trollocs.

 

Elyas's unwillingness to share time on the horse has little to do with sexism. I don't recall now (it's been a couple years since my last reread of TEoTW), but I have the impression that he agreed that perrin should ride part of the time, or at least, had no interest in making egwene ride all the time. Elyas doesn't ride horses because he in many ways self identifies as a wolf, and wolves don't ride horses. Similarly, wolves sleep and rest on the ground, so Elyas does too (forgoing the logs). Probably just some tendencies he picked up after living many years in the wild with wolves. I agree it's a little silly though because there are obvious ways in which he can't live like a wolf; he has to at least partially cook his meat to avoid getting sick and he has to use a knife since he has weak teeth and no claws.

 

The calming the dogs thing wasn’t met to be impressive, it was just one in the series of demonstrations meant to show Elyas’s familiarity with the Traveling people.

 

Also, I LOVED the way you described the whole Egwene/Aram/Perrin interaction. That was hilarious. I also dug your earlier description of Mat as Stifler. I agree completely, but I loved Stifler as a character while I can't be certain whether you think he's funny or a dbag. :P

[Feral]

Domon’s crew are returning from a winter in Saldaea (one of the borderlands), they had just seen trollocs first hand, (and since they were Illian, most of them probably for the first time, excepting those who are Domon’s regulars). I agree though that it doesn't make sense for people in a trade center like whitebridge to not believe in trollocs.

 

People believe what they want to believe. Most of these people will know deep down that Trollocs probably exist, but they'd much rather they were just make believe. And seeing as they don't have to deal with Trollocs, there's no reason they shouldn't convince themselves of this (on the surface at least). Also, they've never seen Trollocs so they probably think the stories/descriptions of them are greatly exagerated.

 

In defense of Perrin (although not sure why I'm bothering as I can't stand him), all he as left of his old life at that moment is Egwene. Everything's gone insane and she's his one point of normality, something familiar and comforting. Then someone else comes along and whisks her off, leaving him alone with a bunch of strangers and a crazy wolf dude while he's having one MAJOR indentity crisis. I think it's perfectly understandable for him to flip out in this situation.

[Pantherus]

Thank you, Pantherus! Thanks for reading and laughing and joining the discussion.

 

(you've said you're a RL feminist so I'm actually stunned that you've been using 'Witch' as such a derogatory term for her)

 

I wasn't using witch as a clever way of saying bitch. I just didn't want to say wizards and Aes Sedai over and over again. That gets monotonous after a while. Witch is great in that it has one syllable (so witch, wizard, and Aes Sedai are like 1, 2, and 3; I couldn't do that with "sorcerer") and it starts with a "w" (so I can get some alliteration in there with "witches and wives and Warders and Whitecloaks"; I couldn't do that with "mage"). So it wasn't meant to be derogatory but I am sorry that I came across that way.

I'm not offended personally - but the fact that the term "Witch" is such a sensitive term for most feminists (since of course it was a term flung about again women who were often simply strong or stood out as a reason to get rid of them) means I was surprised to see you use it like that as well. Of course Harry Potter books used the term in a much more neutral light (simply as the feminine form of "Wizard") so maybe that's somewhat smothered the stigma of it in mainsteam literature - fact remains though that the term "Witch" in the Wheel of Time is used by the Whitecloaks and certain sections of the public in much the same fashion as the Dark Ages and in places like Salem etc...

 

 

This next part you wrote about Moiraine made me think:

 

and are then seeing EVERYTHING she does with the mask that she's evil over it...then conveniently gloss over the nice stuff she does.

 

I don't think I gloss over them (lately, as I'm writing the newest blog posts, I've been bringing up every little detail in an effort to gloss over as little as possible; the posts are getting longer as a result) I make excuses for them. I mean, check this out:

 

4) Small tips - people in this world cover all kinds of combinations of intent and execution - there are people with good hearts who are just dicks; people who are evil and nasty but seem lovely (right up until the knife comes out);

 

Moiraine seems distant, driven, and she shows a hint of having a soft spot in her heart for the Two Rivers Boys. I can see her as being a good guy in a bad world afraid of showing her hand for fear of being found out and defeated. While she doesn't seem "lovely" she seems as if she has potential to be a heroine. So my warning bells go off. "People who are evil and nasty but seem lovely" is right. Moiraine is shaping up to be a good guy so she must have something wrong with her. Hehe.

You're pretty spot on there - and testament to your astute observation skills that you've picked up on so many subtle characteristics thus far. I'm sure going forward you've been putting more attention into your findings and commentary, but some of the earlier sections especially you seemed to ignore certain things that either refuted your opinions (which is what set some people here up in arms about them) or clearly explained something you chose to ridicule. I'm glad you're looking a bit deeper now though, arguably the single best thing about the WoT books is the immense depth surrounding them.

 

 

And people with good hearts but act like dicks? Yeah, I call them dicks. People who are creepy but on the side of good are still creepy. What was it that Batman said? It's not who you are underneath but what you do that defines you. If, for example, you look up Lan in the dictionary it says "see: dick." That's how he's defined. I don't think it matters what you feel on the inside, you know? I think it's how you treat the people around you that is really important.

 

In my dictionary, at least.

Haha - yep. Again, a wonderul aspect of this stories - now sure you've got a clear definition of "evil" in the books - Dark one, Forsaken, Trollocs, Fades, etc etc - but there are several factions who claim to oppose this "evil" in their own way - and they come to blows with each other since each of them thinks they know best how to fight evil. The Whitecloaks are the most antagonistic of this lot, but there's a huge range throughout the stories; people jostling for personal gain, doing their best to ensure their version of "right" is the one that wins...

 

And as you'll find out, there really are several characters in this book who are opposing the dark one, but really are just prats and you're glad when they die, or conversely are dismayed that the manage to survive over and over again.

 

 

Do realise, though, that a) this first book in particular is not supposed to be a socio-political analysis of gender equality; and b) Rand in particular really is an over-protectics, chauvanistic, prat - as others have said, it becomes a prominent personality flaw of his that gets him into all kinds of trouble.

 

Ha! Don't you realize that by commenting you've just jumped into the sexism debate? It's a trap!

 

But seriously, just because something wasn't meant to be an analysis doesn't mean it can't be analyzed. Homer didn't write the Iliad to be one of the defining pieces of Western literature, to be analyzed and studied for over two thousand years. Not that the Eye of the World is like the Iliad. I'm sure Twilight wasn't written to be studied in a feminist light but it still is. I don't think Harry Potter was meant to be critiqued by the Christian Right but it was.

 

And that second part of your quote is something I don't get about some of the hate I'm getting. Rand is acting sexist towards women. Everyone agrees. Everyone says it comes back to bite him in the ass. So what's wrong with me pointing it out now and hating it now? Should I wait until other characters in the story hate it before I start to? And here I thought I was ahead of the curve.

You know what? You're totally right on all accounts here. I think I've figured something out though about what's annoyed people so much, and it's something we all do far too often, especially on Internet Forums - you produced Opinion as Fact. In this case, you produced an Opinion of an Opinion as Fact. If you had said: "Man, this guy Rand is such a chauvanist prick, look at how he sees Women in the world" you'd have received a chorus of "YEP!!!" Instead you said more along the lines of "My gosh this world is sexist! look at all the women, asides from a couple of super wizards, all any of the, do is be housewives!" which of course set off a chorus of "Nuh Uh!" :)

 

Something to think about, even in today's society, there are many Women who actively WANT to be housewives, cooking cleaning and taking care of the Children. My wife is a fully Qualified Chartered Accountant with over 14 years experience in many fields of Accountancy. We've got 2 children and was actually annoyed that financially it made more sense for me to stay home with our girls for a year before they went to daycare because she actually thought it my job as the Husband and Father to work and provide for my family while she stayed home with the kids...I was stunned...but yeah - my point is that being a housewife doesn't necessarily make you an inferior and that's something some people here have been trying to get across...ugh...SO didn't want to wade into this discussion...sorry!! moving on!!

 

 

I read the first 2 books and just got sick of the "nasty guys" winning again and again and again and again...just irritated me so much that the casual enjoyment reading was making me angry...

 

That's one of the problems I'm having with the Eye of the World. The good guys cannot lose. They literally cannot lose. Every injury they have sustained has been Healed by magic. The Dark One couldn't kill or capture them now, when they are powerless children in the middle of nowhere (so how can he hope to defeat them when they become a wolf man, two of the most powerful witches in the world, an Old Blood stutterer, and whatever Rand is becoming?). Every tight spot they get in reality will warp itself to let the heroes find a way out (I believe the Ogier call it "ta'avaren"). I'd like to see the bad guy win something (they couldn't even kill Thom!).

 

I've looked up a Song of Ice and Fire and it seems interesting. It doesn't seem to have the same focus on magic and super-humans. And sexism in the in-universe society isn't that big of a problem for me (believe it or not). I was mostly bothered by the other readers who didn't acknowledge the sexism that I was seeing. Sexism is rife in the real world and I love biographies and socio-political analysis. But it doesn't matter since I won't be reading any other fantasy until I'm done with these books (I bought Books 1, 2, and 3 so we'll see where things go after that).

Actually they can lose, and they often do as time goes on. Some of the people considered main characters do die; but mostly they survive, barely, after having their respective arses handed to them by their enemies. More than a few times they're sent running with their tail between their legs; forced into hiding and simply trying to survive. Now we don't even know how the story ends, they might all get slaughtered, they might win but all die in the process...we don't know...

 

However you're right in that there's an air of "I'm the main character therefore I won't die" - I dunno if you've seen the Family Guy Star Wars movies, but Peter "Han Solo" Griffin's comment in "Something, Something, Something, Dark Side" when they're in the asteroid field sums it up: "Relax, we've got like 4 or 5 of the main characters on board, we'll be fine!"

 

A Song of Fire and Ice is very different - it's all about swords and subterfuge, rather than Sword and Sorcery. The sexual content is immense so be prepared for that - not quite to the level of Jean M. Auel's "Earth Children" books, but not far. One of the reasons I wasn't sure you'd like it is the level to which many of the men consider women with disdain, that they're only as good as what they can offer under the sheets...but hey, give it a go and you may well love them. I just got sick of the way the bad guys kept winning - much like when I was a teenager and got bored of Professional Wrestling cause the "bad guys" kept winning by cheating...there's corruption, abuse of power, greed and selfish behaviour to the extreme - hell if that's your cup of tea you'll love it! :)

 

Looking forward to reading the next chapter(s) of your blog...but for now, back to work!! :)

[Luckers]

Here's a general instruction for everyone to play nice. Disagreeing with a persons points are fine, attacking them for making them is not.

 

Edit: I'm sorry, apparently I wasn't clear enough. Play nice or you'll get yourself a ban.

 

From this moment forward I want only on topic constructive comments. If you don't like that your more than welcome to leave this thread.

[Aerials]

One thing I think you should try and keep in mind while reading is that even if you are done with book 2 this you are still only about 1/7 of the way through the series. I've noticed many comments in your blog about how "this story was boring blah blah blah why do I care" when much of the information becomes extremely relevant at a later point. I'd say that your reaction is normal if you are not used to reading epic fantasy, as it seems you are not (I had much the same response the first time I read the series and had to reread it just because I realized I had missed so much). These parts may at times seem irrelevant but two or three books down the road you will run into something and think "where did I read this before" and end up searching through the previous three books just to satisfy your curiosity .

 

Very entertaining read thus far, look forward to the next post.

[Always Sunny]

Readers, I won't lie to you. I've got a killer hangover right now. Saint Paddy's day was kind to me this year but the morning after hasn't been. I hope all of you had a wonderful time, too.

 

So on to the post!

 

This is the part where I finally get around to hating a character. I thought I hated Ceen Buie but he's an angel compared to Perrin in these chapters. These two Perrin POV chapters really turn me off to him and everything about him. I feel blessed, too, that at least until half-way through The Great Hunt Perrin is a minor character. From his rescue from the Whitecloaks until where I'm reading now he doesn't do much but look at the ground so people don't see his yellow eyes.

 

But that's all in the future. Right now Perrin is important and right now I hate him. I don't want to, though! I don't want to hate anyone. Well, the Dark One, I guess. But I want to love to hate him. You follow? I'll write clearer when I'm sober (I'm going back to bed after this.). If you can convince me that I'm wrong I'll be happy. Just remember that we've got a few more already-written chapters of Perrin-hate coming so my changed mind will not be reflected in the blog for a long time.

 

Other than Perrin hate (and it's pretty thick in this blog post) we've got Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Lan getting to Whitebridge and then heading off into the wild to find Perrin and Egwene. We find that Thom may have (read: did) survived the Fade knife fight. Somehow. And it looks s if Nynaeve is having romantic feelings for Lan, too. We'll see how this works out.

 

Here is the link!

 

Shelter from the Storm, Footprints in the Air, Eyes Without Pity

 

@Luckers: I promise to play nice! Thanks for reading/monitoring my thread, here.

[csarmi]

I don't suppose people in the two rivers have sex without marriage, you know.

[Agitel]

I don't suppose people in the two rivers have sex without marriage, you know.

 

Yeah, the Wisdom and the Women's Circle would chew them out and probably give both of them a strapping and maybe force them to marry (I forget if they do the latter or not).

[csarmi]

I also believe you're slightly misreading Perrin there, even though you have a lot of good observations. What should he do if a few thousand ravens attacked them?

 

Personally, I don't think he should kill Egwene in that case.

 

You're spot on about him having psychological problems, but is it surprising that he does? Just think about what he went through those two months.

 

I'm really looking forward to Sunny's reactions to pillow friends, first sisters and Rand getting laid :)

[A2597]

Regaurding things happening, specifically Elyes getting a feeling to move in a certain direction and move NOW after being lazy for days...and Perrin and Egwene following him.

 

You're still a little ways away from understanding the Taverien nature of these boys, the pattern literally bends around them, to ensure they are where they need to be. In the first books it is very much an unexplained plot device, almost tongue in cheek about how things always happen *just* right for main characters. But as the books go on it begins to make more sense.

 

Perrin...he has some rough patches, actually, all three of these boys do. By book 3 Perrin is on his way, and book 4 you will love his character, and Mat very much rocks in Book 3, and Rand...Rand is perhaps the character with the most growth in the series. They all grow a LOT, but I can't place a spot in the books that define him. Mat is certainly book 3, Perrin certainly book 4....Rand it's ongoing even now, but never in a bad way.

 

As for Egwene and running...I sure as hell couldn't run far in a dress. She actually has far more endurance in running than you might expect, but garments would make things harder. Give it a few books and say that RJ has made her even remotely frail. hahah

[randsc]

I don't suppose people in the two rivers have sex without marriage, you know.

 

Yeah, the Wisdom and the Women's Circle would chew them out and probably give both of them a strapping and maybe force them to marry (I forget if they do the latter or not).

 

Only if the girl did it without her mother's permission. That is one of the mmore peculiar Two Rivers customs, in my mind, but there is in fact socially sanctioned pre-marital sex in that culture.

[Erunion]

I thought it was more socially-sanctioned engagement, after which people kind of looked the other way if you really didn't want to wait until marriage.

Remember (I think it is in one of Nynaeve's internal monologues, but I'm not sure) the dude and the girl who were found the hayloft? The pair of them got whipped (ok, strapped across the bum, but still), then were married basically as soon as it was possible to arrange the wedding. The joke went around town that neither of them could sit down for the first week they were married...

[David Selig]

I thought it was more socially-sanctioned engagement, after which people kind of looked the other way if you really didn't want to wait until marriage.

Remember (I think it is in one of Nynaeve's internal monologues, but I'm not sure) the dude and the girl who were found the hayloft? The pair of them got whipped (ok, strapped across the bum, but still), then were married basically as soon as it was possible to arrange the wedding. The joke went around town that neither of them could sit down for the first week they were married...

That was in Rand's PoV in TFOH, Ch. 31. The couple in question was already engaged IIRC, but that didn't stop Nynaeve from giving them a good strapping.

 

*edited to remove the spoiler, my bad*.

[randsc]

I thought it was more socially-sanctioned engagement, after which people kind of looked the other way if you really didn't want to wait until marriage.

Remember (I think it is in one of Nynaeve's internal monologues, but I'm not sure) the dude and the girl who were found the hayloft? The pair of them got whipped (ok, strapped across the bum, but still), then were married basically as soon as it was possible to arrange the wedding. The joke went around town that neither of them could sit down for the first week they were married...

 

 

 

Right. And Egwene, "thought of asking her mother for him(Rand)," although they were not engaged.

 

The way it seems to work is that a girl can get married as soon as she is old enough to braid her hair, but can have sex only with her mother's permission. Or, presumably, if married. The whole thing is a little wierd.

[Erunion]

Thanks for straightening out the references for me. I'ma gonna need to re-read the series, blocks of text from the early books are getting mixed up in my head now...

[A2597]

I thought it was more socially-sanctioned engagement, after which people kind of looked the other way if you really didn't want to wait until marriage.

Remember (I think it is in one of Nynaeve's internal monologues, but I'm not sure) the dude and the girl who were found the hayloft? The pair of them got whipped (ok, strapped across the bum, but still), then were married basically as soon as it was possible to arrange the wedding. The joke went around town that neither of them could sit down for the first week they were married...

That was in Rand's PoV after the igloo sex scene with Avi. The couple in question was already engaged IIRC, but that didn't stop Nynaeve from giving them a good strapping.

 

Right. And Egwene, "thought of asking her mother for him(Rand)," although they were not engaged.

 

The way it seems to work is that a girl can get married as soon as she is old enough to braid her hair, but can have sex only with her mother's permission. Or, presumably, if married. The whole thing is a little wierd.

 

 

I read that as the girl can basically marry the guy without him asking. And the way things seem in the Two Rivers, if it came to that I don't think he'd be allowed to say no at that point.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i don't get the sense that people who aren't interested in each other are forcibly married in the two rivers.

[randsc]

Yeah, I don't really see it that way either.

 

The girl can ask her mother's permission to have sex with a boy. That doesn't mean that the boy is forced to have sex.

 

If he does have sex with her, yeah, he's stuck if she wants to get married. The Wisdom will be reaching for her shotgun.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

that might not be a bad thing in such a small, isolated society with a very limited gene pool. you can't have wil al'seen fathering an entire generation.

[randsc]

that might not be a bad thing in such a small, isolated society with a very limited gene pool. you can't have wil al'seen fathering an entire generation.

 

A fair point. There actually is a reason for most social prohibitions and taboos.

[csarmi]

David, maybe, just maybe you shouldn't post spoilers from 3 books ahead?

[csarmi]

The girl can ask her mother's permission to have sex with a boy.

 

I've read no such thing in the books. Can you tell me in which chapter did you read that, or point to an interview or something?