How to Fix Tuon

[Ananta]

I'd say that last is a stretch - it was hardly Cadsuane's fault. She did the best she could and was unjustly punished for it. The Seanchan didn't betray him, nor did Elaida's faction. They weren't on his side to begin with. That said, Semi was in the wrong for trying to captrue Rand under a flag of truce (but she's a Chosen - we don't expect them to be nice guys), and the AS were wrong for kidnapping him.

 

Rand allowed her to continue to possess the most dangerous weapon in the world, as well as an item that could have had profound negative consequences to the side of the Light if it was ever used. Cadsuane failed to do an adequate job of keeping them safe. I guess it's technically more of a case of gross failure than treachery; nevertheless, the fact is that Rand didn't take Stalin's solution to an epic fail on the part of his subordinate.

 

Elaida's Aes Sedai delegation and the Seanchan under Semirhage both came under a flag of truce, intending to break the truce. That's treachery. Specifically, it's perfidy. It doesn't matter that they weren't under him; to attack someone while under a flag of truce is a major no-no.

Rand should have just Travelled to some far out place in the middle of nowhere, possibly middle of random ocean and drop the thing to the bottom of it and TADAA, problem solved.

[Mr Ares]

I'd say that last is a stretch - it was hardly Cadsuane's fault. She did the best she could and was unjustly punished for it. The Seanchan didn't betray him, nor did Elaida's faction. They weren't on his side to begin with. That said, Semi was in the wrong for trying to captrue Rand under a flag of truce (but she's a Chosen - we don't expect them to be nice guys), and the AS were wrong for kidnapping him.

 

Rand allowed her to continue to possess the most dangerous weapon in the world, as well as an item that could have had profound negative consequences to the side of the Light if it was ever used. Cadsuane failed to do an adequate job of keeping them safe. I guess it's technically more of a case of gross failure than treachery; nevertheless, the fact is that Rand didn't take Stalin's solution to an epic fail on the part of his subordinate.

What more could she have done to keep them safe? The box was warded, so it's not like the items were just left lying around. Rand not using the Stalin method in no way makes him a model of forebearance - she took reasonable precautions, and the Shadow overcame them. Rand's treatment of her was unjust.

 

Elaida's Aes Sedai delegation and the Seanchan under Semirhage both came under a flag of truce, intending to break the truce. That's treachery. Specifically, it's perfidy. It doesn't matter that they weren't under him; to attack someone while under a flag of truce is a major no-no.

Neither the Seanchan nor the AS had any allegiance to Rand, therefore they are not traitors (although in the case of the Seanchan, they would have been had they gone against the orders of the DotNM). Nor was Darlin, who was in open rebellion. I'm not defending actions, just saying they are not traitors.

[muddymess]

I'd say that last is a stretch - it was hardly Cadsuane's fault. She did the best she could and was unjustly punished for it. The Seanchan didn't betray him, nor did Elaida's faction. They weren't on his side to begin with. That said, Semi was in the wrong for trying to captrue Rand under a flag of truce (but she's a Chosen - we don't expect them to be nice guys), and the AS were wrong for kidnapping him.

 

Rand allowed her to continue to possess the most dangerous weapon in the world, as well as an item that could have had profound negative consequences to the side of the Light if it was ever used. Cadsuane failed to do an adequate job of keeping them safe. I guess it's technically more of a case of gross failure than treachery; nevertheless, the fact is that Rand didn't take Stalin's solution to an epic fail on the part of his subordinate.

What more could she have done to keep them safe? The box was warded, so it's not like the items were just left lying around. Rand not using the Stalin method in no way makes him a model of forebearance - she took reasonable precautions, and the Shadow overcame them. Rand's treatment of her was unjust.

 

Elaida's Aes Sedai delegation and the Seanchan under Semirhage both came under a flag of truce, intending to break the truce. That's treachery. Specifically, it's perfidy. It doesn't matter that they weren't under him; to attack someone while under a flag of truce is a major no-no.

Neither the Seanchan nor the AS had any allegiance to Rand, therefore they are not traitors (although in the case of the Seanchan, they would have been had they gone against the orders of the DotNM). Nor was Darlin, who was in open rebellion. I'm not defending actions, just saying they are not traitors.

Her weak precautions almost lost them the world, not to mention Rands sanity. It was the final push that put him over the edge to the DO side. I think his treatment of her was way too lenient.

 

Maybe they weren't traitors per se, but they betrayed his trust.

[Ashandarei]

1) is wrong - it's not so much that damane can do horrible things like kill with the Power, it's that touching the Power itself is a horrible thing, that makes one less that human. The girls they leash are either people who have sparked, people who are about to, or people who are trained channelers. Those who are about to really have no choice - they wil touch the Source, whether they want to or not.Now, their reasons for leashing channelers to begin with are wrong, but I'd say they are internally consistent - Tuon cannot channel yet, therefore she should not be damane - yet. If you put an a'dam on her, it probably wouldn't hold her. Therefore, she shouldn't be held.¹

 

By the same token, is Mat extremely irresponsible for not taking Tuon's beliefs in omens seriously? She's his partner, everyone around her "knows" these things are true, yet Mat disbelieves!² While he is content to believe in fairy stories.

 

¹ Technically, none of the sul'dam can channel[³]. And yet, out of the three sul'dam chosen at random- first the one Nynaeve & Elayne jumped(Seta), then the one who was Egwene's sul'dam(Renna), and finally the one who walked in to find Seta & Renna leashed(Bethamin)- every single one of the three random sul'dam can be held by the leash. RJ also tells us that a sul'dam with 4 months experience isn't susceptible to being collared[⁴]. He doesn't however mention a higher number, like 1 year. So it would be reasonable to assume that sul'dam who have been using the a'dam with damane for about 1 year(more than twice what RJ quoted as safe) or more can probably be collared. Heck, if you want to be extra careful, you can say two years(6 times longer than the safe zone RJ mentioned).

 

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Jordan: Sul'dam are women who can learn, and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over.³

-

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough.⁴

 

Quote Link

That being said, Tuon herself admits that she's been using the a'dam for a while now, ever since reaching adulthood[⁵]. Now in a society like theirs which is equivalent in many ways to societies in real life on Earth two or so centuries ago, 16 years old would definitely be considered "adult". In the royal family, where the children are assassinating each other from adolescence, adulthood could easily be 14 or even 12. That means that if you take the most cautious estimates- adulthood at 16 and collar-able in 2 years- Tuon, who is currently 19 years, 7 months old[⁶], would definitely be collar-able as she has been training damane with the a'dam for 3 years 7 months, almost 2 years past deadline. If you take the slightly less cautious but just as reasonable estimates- adulthood at 14 and collar-able in 1 year- she's been training damane for 5 and a half years, 4 and a half past the deadline. Basically, her logic is most definitely not consistent; an a'dam can hold her, so she should be held.

 

Many had thought it odd when Tuon tested for sul'dam on reaching adulthood⁵, though none could gainsay her, then. Except her mother, who had allowed it by remaining silent. Actually becoming a sul'dam was unthinkable, of course, but she found as much enjoyment in training damane as in training horses, and she was as good at one as the other.

"My fourteenth true-name day will come in five months⁶," she said in a voice that was far from cold. In fact, it could have heated the wagon better than the stove. He felt a moment of hope, but she was not finished. "No; you keep your birth names here, don't you. That will be my twentieth naming day.⁶

 

² I have a few things to respond to that:

1) The omens that she uses are incredibly generic and vague like when we first see her in Winter's Heart(Ch.14) on the ship where she sees a "soaring albatross" and considers it an omen of victory. Really?? Of course there will be at least one battle that can be considered a victory when the Seanchan fight the Randlanders. On the other hand, Rand's Ashaman dealt the Seanchan a devastating blow to the west of Illian. But of course that can't be considered evidence to the contrary, as long as there was a single victory in a single battle.

 

Later with Mat, she hears an owl hoot twice(IIRC) and mentions that someone will die right as Mat's crossbowmen are about to ambush the Seanchan in a valley. No sh** Sherlock(or Tuon, in this case). Someone will die when hundreds or thousands of armed men attack each other. It's like a chinese fortune cookie, the omens are designed to be vague enough that they can be seen to come true in some way by anyone who believes in them strongly enough.

 

2) You say everyone around her knows these omens. "Everyone around her" is one person: Selucia. Not exactly a convincing number. Especially considering that Selucia is dedicated to Tuon and would gladly give her life and more to serve her, meaning that if Tuon wanted her to support an argument, I highly doubt Selucia would disagree. Now we as readers know that Selucia doesn't just agree with Tuon because Tuon says so, but you were talking about Mat. He doesn't know. So based on the things I mentioned above- absurdly vague omens and complete lack of unbiased support, Mat is quite right to disbelieve Tuon.

 

3) All that being said, as the series continued, I did start to wonder if maybe the Seanchan omens are in fact more than superstition. The reason I, and many other readers(I assume), think it's superstition is because RJ specifically writes the POV's of so many of the protagonists being skeptical of the omens, leading us as readers to believe they're not true. But it could be that RJ did in fact include the omens in his building of the WoT universe(it's a fantasy world and omens wouldn't be the least out of place in a fantasy novel) and he was purposely leading the readers to doubt them, only to show us later with the fulfilling of a very clear and direct omen which is of immense importance that they are true and surprise us all. It could be. But I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

[PhoenixUK]

as already mentioned, the fact that egeanin, or banner general from KOD who worked with Perrin against the shaido, learnt to not freak out over Aes Sedai and Asha'man, means that seanchan can overcome their cultural prejudices. But Tuon refuses to, even though she herself can learn to channel. That diminishes her in my eyes, but going against your cultural norms in something so shocking takes a lot of guts. It would be easier if someone DID leash her, that would force her to change her mind pretty quick.

 

So I vote for leashing her.

 

I'm still wondering who the seanchan woman is that is going to help Egwene - Alivia, Egeanin or Tuon?

 

I'm glad ashandarei mentions the quote from RJ about sul'dam becoming vulnerable to a'dam over time, because it was something I assumed but did not know for sure, as it didn't make any sense otherwise (since everyone is tested, sul'dam should be caught like marath'damane straight away, unless they are not vulnerable initially).

[MasterAblar]

I'd say that last is a stretch - it was hardly Cadsuane's fault. She did the best she could and was unjustly punished for it. The Seanchan didn't betray him, nor did Elaida's faction. They weren't on his side to begin with. That said, Semi was in the wrong for trying to captrue Rand under a flag of truce (but she's a Chosen - we don't expect them to be nice guys), and the AS were wrong for kidnapping him.

 

Rand allowed her to continue to possess the most dangerous weapon in the world, as well as an item that could have had profound negative consequences to the side of the Light if it was ever used. Cadsuane failed to do an adequate job of keeping them safe. I guess it's technically more of a case of gross failure than treachery; nevertheless, the fact is that Rand didn't take Stalin's solution to an epic fail on the part of his subordinate.

What more could she have done to keep them safe? The box was warded, so it's not like the items were just left lying around. Rand not using the Stalin method in no way makes him a model of forebearance - she took reasonable precautions, and the Shadow overcame them. Rand's treatment of her was unjust.

 

Elaida's Aes Sedai delegation and the Seanchan under Semirhage both came under a flag of truce, intending to break the truce. That's treachery. Specifically, it's perfidy. It doesn't matter that they weren't under him; to attack someone while under a flag of truce is a major no-no.

Neither the Seanchan nor the AS had any allegiance to Rand, therefore they are not traitors (although in the case of the Seanchan, they would have been had they gone against the orders of the DotNM). Nor was Darlin, who was in open rebellion. I'm not defending actions, just saying they are not traitors.

Her weak precautions almost lost them the world, not to mention Rands sanity. It was the final push that put him over the edge to the DO side. I think his treatment of her was way too lenient.

 

Maybe they weren't traitors per se, but they betrayed his trust.

 

In truth, it's hard to say that Cadsuane could have done anything more than she did to keep them safe. Maybe have someone watch them all the time. In any case the fact is that she had responsibility for them, and even though she could not have done anything else, she still failed. Rand could have been more understanding but considering what he just went through, and the fact that he pretty much loathed Cadsuane back then, it was pretty unlikely that he would forgive her for it.

[PhoenixUK]

the easiest way to deal with the male a'dam? THe same way they dealt with the gho'lam. Open a skimming gateway and throw the a'dam through. It's possible that holding it through a gateway and closing it, so that the gateway slices through the a'dam as it closes, might have been able to break it in a way that Elayne could not by channelling heat into it.

[Lord D]

the easiest way to deal with the male a'dam? THe same way they dealt with the gho'lam. Open a skimming gateway and throw the a'dam through. It's possible that holding it through a gateway and closing it, so that the gateway slices through the a'dam as it closes, might have been able to break it in a way that Elayne could not by channelling heat into it.

Rand has already destroyed the one used to leash him with the True Power. I do agree that Cadsuane should have put it beyond reach, and that could have best been done as you suggest.

[Muad Cheade]

My answer to your (1) is that the very word da'covale means property. Anything can be done to property. If your master/mistress is ok, he may only hurt you if you rebel or are sloppy. However, if you're unlucky, you may get a sadist or a bully as a master/mistress, in which case things become decidedly unpleasant no matter how hard you try to please them.

You're misinterpreting my point. I was addressing Amathera specifically.

 

As to (5), would you not consider the US South to have been evil when they used black slave labour? Having the very institution of slavery has a highly corrupting influence on other parts of that society, as slaves can be treated anyway the master/mistress desire.

No. I wouldn't consider the southern United States evil nor would I consider the majority of the founding fathers of the US evil for owning them.

 

For (6), Tuon is just more ruthless than Rand when it comes to handling traitors; this hardly makes her just or wise. If Rand had given Colavaere to a bunch of elite Dragonsworn to "serve them as they wish", would we have thought he was one of the good guys anymore?

Colavere never attempted to kill Rand. Suroth was punished not only for betraying Tuon but also for trying to kill her.

 

1) Of course she did! They were invaders! Regardless, there is NO justification for slavery. None.

Did I say there was? I simply explained what occurred what happened in the case of Amathera.

 

2) Your analogy isn't accurate. In this case your girlfriend would have to be one of the most important(if not the most important) general of your country's armies, leading over 50,000 men into combat and have a flawless track record, winning every single one of the many battles she engaged her forces in. Now, this battle-commander and general tells you in 100% seriousness that creatures similar to the "boogeyman" are prevalent in a certain region of the continent you live on and that she has faced them many a time in battle. Are you honestly not even going to consider the possibility and risk that that poses? And you wouldn't just be a civilian, you'd be the Emperor of a massive nation with responsibilities to your people. Dismissing such a serious risk without any consideration when repeatedly warned by as trustworthy a source as your partner who has extensive field-experience in battle is a borderline criminal offense if you're the ruler of a nation.

It doesn't matter who is telling you what may or may not exist. If someone deems something to be too implausible, they will not change their mind unless they see tangible proof. The same goes for the Two Rivers people and, as RJ says in tGH, "most people who hadn't been to the Borderlands" don't believe in Trollocs. Nieda Sidoro, the woman Bayle Domon met in tGH and is also one of Moiraine's eyes and ears, didn't believe in Trollocs or snow. Even some people currently don't believe that the United States landed on the moon.

 

3) What's your point? Is it, "they're ignorant so it's not their fault"? Tuon can't even claim ignorance- Mat has explained things to her quite clearly.

"My point" was that how can Tuon be a hypocrite in regards to her being a "learner" and leashing damane when her culture doesn't believe in the theory that channeling can be learned?

 

4) Their belief is wrong. Mat proves this to Tuon as well by showing him that Teslyn, Edesina, and Joline don't turn into "horrible monsters" when unleashed. He shows her that all three AS are people and should be treated as such.

The fact that they can touch the Source makes them inherently dangerous. Also, they are still as manipulative as the Aes Sedai Luthair Paendrag encountered. For example, once they found out who Tuon was they attempted to bully her into making a truce.

 

[5) The "institution" of slavery doesn't exist magically by itself. People enforce it. Those same people are the ones that deserve the blame. Currently, Tuon is one of those people. If she still refuses to change her views by AMoL, and anyone else who refuses, can quite legitimately be considered evil. That's the difference between "misguided" and "evil". Someone who refuses to change their ways when provided every possible shred of evidence that what they do is wrong and completely immoral is evil. Someone who does examine their actions and ways and changes in response to the evidence can be said to have previously been misguided.

Who has shown them that what they do is wrong? If anything, Rand notes that the lands the Seanchan hold are more peaceful and orderly than the rest of the Westlands.

 

6) I agree that Tuon has shown wisdom in some things, she certainly has the potential for greatness. Whether that potential is for great evil or great good is yet to be seen.

The same generalization goes for every person.

 

While I think you have to take into account someone's culture and the way they were raised when judging someone's actions, I don't buy this as an excuse for Tuon. Why?

 

1) Because other people who were raised in the same culture have come to the correct conclusion about damane, and they can't even channel (Egeanin).

And? There are countless more people who are from a counter-culture and willingly go to the Seanchan. Also, Tylee hasn't changed her views on damane (she just gained 500 Shaido Wise Ones). She simply is different in regards to her views on the current interactions with other nations.

 

2) And it isn't just channeling, it is blindness to other things as well. She's blind to the LB, attacking the WT on the eve of it, when she's spent weeks around unleashed women who can channel, to no ill effect.

Seanchan prophecy says that the Empress cannot fight the Last Battle until the Dragon Reborn kneels to the Crystal Throne. That would give them the assumption that they still have time.

 

3) And the situation with the Randlanders, and Mat. Tylee and her soldiers, who have spent far less time around Randlander's than she has, have got it right. Heck, the guy from her guard has a ton more respect for him than she does. She still thinks he's a Toy. This, after seeing the Band in action.

Mat will always be "Toy" to Tuon. However, we definitely see a shift in her opinion of him in the recent books (mostly in KoD).

 

If there is one main character I hope that will die, it is Tuon. She deserves it. Of course, if Faile and Gawyn can make comebacks, anything is possible.

How does she deserve death? I very much dislike statements like that. Actually if anyone legally deserves death, it is Rand as he did murder Fedwin Morr.

[randsc]

We don't know that euthanasia is a crime anywhere in Randland, let alone one punishable by death.

[Lord D]

We don't know that euthanasia is a crime anywhere in Randland, let alone one punishable by death.

I don't get this comment. I can't remember anyone been euthanised in WoT, though I would think it would happen after battles if there were no Healers around.

[Suttree]

That being said, Tuon herself admits that she's been using the a'dam for a while now, ever since reaching adulthood[⁵]. Now in a society like theirs which is equivalent in many ways to societies in real life on Earth two or so centuries ago, 16 years old would definitely be considered "adult". In the royal family, where the children are assassinating each other from adolescence, adulthood could easily be 14 or even 12. That means that if you take the most cautious estimates- adulthood at 16 and collar-able in 2 years- Tuon, who is currently 19 years, 7 months old[⁶], would definitely be collar-able as she has been training damane with the a'dam for 3 years 7 months, almost 2 years past deadline. If you take the slightly less cautious but just as reasonable estimates- adulthood at 14 and collar-able in 1 year- she's been training damane for 5 and a half years, 4 and a half past the deadline. Basically, her logic is most definitely not consistent; an a'dam can hold her, so she should be held.

 

Had a discussion with Luckers about this a little while back. Here is what he had to say...

 

Tuon would have been tested annually with the a'dam up until she became Empress. In addition, sul'dam are tested till twenty-four--no learner tests positive in that time, so Tuon, who practises as a sul'dam as a hobby definately wouldn't.

 

it being a hobby for her is key. Since she is under 24 and wouldn't be working with damane nearly as much as sul'dam the a'dam most definitely would not hold her.

 

We don't know that euthanasia is a crime anywhere in Randland, let alone one punishable by death.

I don't get this comment. I can't remember anyone been euthanised in WoT, though I would think it would happen after battles if there were no Healers around.

 

Rand did it to Fedwin Morr in TPoD Ch A Cup of Sleep. One of the best written scenes in the entire series. Highly recommend checking it out.

[Ashandarei]

Had a discussion with Luckers about this a little while back. Here is what he had to say...

 

Tuon would have been tested annually with the a'dam up until she became Empress. In addition, sul'dam are tested till twenty-four--no learner tests positive in that time, so Tuon, who practises as a sul'dam as a hobby definately wouldn't.

 

it being a hobby for her is key. Since she is under 24 and wouldn't be working with damane nearly as much as sul'dam the a'dam most definitely would not hold her.

 

Is there a source for that information? As in one of the books or the Guide? As much as I respect Luckers' knowledge on such things, I still prefer to have something to verify such statements.

[Suttree]

Had a discussion with Luckers about this a little while back. Here is what he had to say...

 

Tuon would have been tested annually with the a'dam up until she became Empress. In addition, sul'dam are tested till twenty-four--no learner tests positive in that time, so Tuon, who practises as a sul'dam as a hobby definately wouldn't.

 

it being a hobby for her is key. Since she is under 24 and wouldn't be working with damane nearly as much as sul'dam the a'dam most definitely would not hold her.

 

Is there a source for that information? As in one of the books or the Guide?

 

I don't know where to find it but I do know Luckers was discussing with BS. Here is the rest of the message from him that was pertinent to this topic...

 

I actually asked Brandon whether Tuon was still tested based on your PM, and he said that as Empress she can do whatever she wants--i.e. not be tested.

 

I'm willing to bet he had a rock solid source to word it the way he did.

[Kestrel]

It made sense for Tuon, as merely one of several potential heirs to the throne, to be tested annually with an a'dam. Sure, she was the designated Daughter of the Nine Moons, but that didn't guarantee her eventual ascendency.

 

But now, I just can't picture anyone having the nerve to slap an a'dam on Empress Fortuona's throat as part of a routine voluntary "wellness" checkup. There are some questions people like her just don't want answered. Imagine the implications. For one, if the a'dam DID reveal Empress Fortuona could channel, who would ascend to the throne in her place?

 

However, thinking ahead to Aviendha's vision, I've got to wonder what eventually happens to Fortuona and when. It appears Fortuona's reign doesn't last very long, certainly not long enough for her to bear children and raise them to adulthood. In Court of the Sun, page 734, the vision is dated only about seventeen years after the Last Battle. On the previous page the Aiel make reference to the Old Empress who had ruled during the Last Battle (Fortuona), and one says "many years had passed since her rule." Doing the math, this implies Fortuona either dies or gets deposed before age 30.

 

Clearly, the new empress is supposed to ascend to the throne rather prematurely. Perhaps, if the vision is accurate, someone DOES slap an a'dam on Fortuona's neck after all.

[Suttree]

However, thinking ahead to Aviendha's vision, I've got to wonder what eventually happens to Fortuona and when. It appears Fortuona's reign doesn't last very long, certainly not long enough for her to bear children and raise them to adulthood. In Court of the Sun, page 734, the vision is dated only about seventeen years after the Last Battle. On the previous page the Aiel make reference to the Old Empress who had ruled during the Last Battle (Fortuona), and one says "many years had passed since her rule." Doing the math, this implies Fortuona either dies or gets deposed before age 30.

 

Well we know she makes it back to Seanchan with Mat after the Last Battle. RJ said as much, it was to be one of the outriggers. Anyones guess as to what happens there. I've always assumed they would be trying to piece the continent back together.

[Mr Ares]

1) is wrong - it's not so much that damane can do horrible things like kill with the Power, it's that touching the Power itself is a horrible thing, that makes one less that human. The girls they leash are either people who have sparked, people who are about to, or people who are trained channelers. Those who are about to really have no choice - they wil touch the Source, whether they want to or not.Now, their reasons for leashing channelers to begin with are wrong, but I'd say they are internally consistent - Tuon cannot channel yet, therefore she should not be damane - yet. If you put an a'dam on her, it probably wouldn't hold her. Therefore, she shouldn't be held.¹

 

By the same token, is Mat extremely irresponsible for not taking Tuon's beliefs in omens seriously? She's his partner, everyone around her "knows" these things are true, yet Mat disbelieves!² While he is content to believe in fairy stories.

 

¹ Technically, none of the sul'dam can channel[³]. And yet, out of the three sul'dam chosen at random- first the one Nynaeve & Elayne jumped(Seta), then the one who was Egwene's sul'dam(Renna), and finally the one who walked in to find Seta & Renna leashed(Bethamin)- every single one of the three random sul'dam can be held by the leash. RJ also tells us that a sul'dam with 4 months experience isn't susceptible to being collared[⁴]. He doesn't however mention a higher number, like 1 year. So it would be reasonable to assume that sul'dam who have been using the a'dam with damane for about 1 year(more than twice what RJ quoted as safe) or more can probably be collared. Heck, if you want to be extra careful, you can say two years(6 times longer than the safe zone RJ mentioned).

 

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Jordan: Sul'dam are women who can learn, and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over.³

-

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough.⁴

 

Quote Link

I would say your one year is a wholly unsupported guess. Remember, people are tested every year (up to a certain point) to see if they are marath'damane. And it was never discovered. RJ said it takes a long time. There is absolutely no reason to believe that someone could be held at one year, or even five years.

 

1) The omens that she uses are incredibly generic and vague like when we first see her in Winter's Heart(Ch.14) on the ship where she sees a "soaring albatross" and considers it an omen of victory. Really?? Of course there will be at least one battle that can be considered a victory when the Seanchan fight the Randlanders. On the other hand, Rand's Ashaman dealt the Seanchan a devastating blow to the west of Illian. But of course that can't be considered evidence to the contrary, as long as there was a single victory in a single battle.

 

Later with Mat, she hears an owl hoot twice(IIRC) and mentions that someone will die right as Mat's crossbowmen are about to ambush the Seanchan in a valley. No sh** Sherlock(or Tuon, in this case). Someone will die when hundreds or thousands of armed men attack each other. It's like a chinese fortune cookie, the omens are designed to be vague enough that they can be seen to come true in some way by anyone who believes in them strongly enough.

Another way of viewing it is that Tuon has evidence to support her superstitions being true, while she is just supposed to take Mat's word for it. When most people in the Westlands, including Mat himself a couple of years ago, didn't believe. No, it is not unreasonable of her to make use of the same standard of evidence Mat did with regards to Trollocs - seeing is believing.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

1) is wrong - it's not so much that damane can do horrible things like kill with the Power, it's that touching the Power itself is a horrible thing, that makes one less that human. The girls they leash are either people who have sparked, people who are about to, or people who are trained channelers. Those who are about to really have no choice - they wil touch the Source, whether they want to or not.Now, their reasons for leashing channelers to begin with are wrong, but I'd say they are internally consistent - Tuon cannot channel yet, therefore she should not be damane - yet. If you put an a'dam on her, it probably wouldn't hold her. Therefore, she shouldn't be held.¹

 

By the same token, is Mat extremely irresponsible for not taking Tuon's beliefs in omens seriously? She's his partner, everyone around her "knows" these things are true, yet Mat disbelieves!² While he is content to believe in fairy stories.

 

¹ Technically, none of the sul'dam can channel[³]. And yet, out of the three sul'dam chosen at random- first the one Nynaeve & Elayne jumped(Seta), then the one who was Egwene's sul'dam(Renna), and finally the one who walked in to find Seta & Renna leashed(Bethamin)- every single one of the three random sul'dam can be held by the leash. RJ also tells us that a sul'dam with 4 months experience isn't susceptible to being collared[⁴]. He doesn't however mention a higher number, like 1 year. So it would be reasonable to assume that sul'dam who have been using the a'dam with damane for about 1 year(more than twice what RJ quoted as safe) or more can probably be collared. Heck, if you want to be extra careful, you can say two years(6 times longer than the safe zone RJ mentioned).

 

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Jordan: Sul'dam are women who can learn, and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over.³

-

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough.⁴

 

Quote Link

I would say your one year is a wholly unsupported guess. Remember, people are tested every year (up to a certain point) to see if they are marath'damane. And it was never discovered. RJ said it takes a long time. There is absolutely no reason to believe that someone could be held at one year, or even five years.

 

The test for damane just involves the damane sensing to see whether they have channeled, not snapping an a'dam around their neck to see whether the a'dam can hold them. It might just be possible that sul'dam can be held within a few years.

[Samhain]

Tuon is the product of generations following the misinformation of Ishamael. Ishamael tells us in The Eye of the World, that he twice doomed men by sending Hawkwing across the ocean.

 

We get to witness part 2.

 

To fix her is impossible. She has somehow resisted Ta'veren, ignored obvious contradictions in her own society, and feels that she must fulfill, with all her might, the Seanchan version of the Dragon prophecy, which has been altered thanks to Ishamael. She is hopeless, and anything short of Compulsion won't fix her.

[capuga]

1) is wrong - it's not so much that damane can do horrible things like kill with the Power, it's that touching the Power itself is a horrible thing, that makes one less that human. The girls they leash are either people who have sparked, people who are about to, or people who are trained channelers. Those who are about to really have no choice - they wil touch the Source, whether they want to or not.Now, their reasons for leashing channelers to begin with are wrong, but I'd say they are internally consistent - Tuon cannot channel yet, therefore she should not be damane - yet. If you put an a'dam on her, it probably wouldn't hold her. Therefore, she shouldn't be held.¹

 

By the same token, is Mat extremely irresponsible for not taking Tuon's beliefs in omens seriously? She's his partner, everyone around her "knows" these things are true, yet Mat disbelieves!² While he is content to believe in fairy stories.

 

¹ Technically, none of the sul'dam can channel[³]. And yet, out of the three sul'dam chosen at random- first the one Nynaeve & Elayne jumped(Seta), then the one who was Egwene's sul'dam(Renna), and finally the one who walked in to find Seta & Renna leashed(Bethamin)- every single one of the three random sul'dam can be held by the leash. RJ also tells us that a sul'dam with 4 months experience isn't susceptible to being collared[⁴]. He doesn't however mention a higher number, like 1 year. So it would be reasonable to assume that sul'dam who have been using the a'dam with damane for about 1 year(more than twice what RJ quoted as safe) or more can probably be collared. Heck, if you want to be extra careful, you can say two years(6 times longer than the safe zone RJ mentioned).

 

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Jordan: Sul'dam are women who can learn, and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over.³

-

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough.⁴

 

Quote Link

I would say your one year is a wholly unsupported guess. Remember, people are tested every year (up to a certain point) to see if they are marath'damane. And it was never discovered. RJ said it takes a long time. There is absolutely no reason to believe that someone could be held at one year, or even five years.

 

The test for damane just involves the damane sensing to see whether they have channeled, not snapping an a'dam around their neck to see whether the a'dam can hold them. It might just be possible that sul'dam can be held within a few years.

 

I was always under the impression the the damane test was actually putting an adam on the woman to see if she could be held. I don't remember a specific quote, although I do remember one about the nobles linking a suldam to a man for fun because sometimes they would both die screaming (presumably when the man had the ability to channel).

[randsc]

We don't know that euthanasia is a crime anywhere in Randland, let alone one punishable by death.

I don't get this comment. I can't remember anyone been euthanised in WoT, though I would think it would happen after battles if there were no Healers around.

 

It was a reply to Muad Cheade's rather silly contention that Rand deserved to die, for "murdering" Fedwin Morr.

 

And, actually, it is clear from the text that Wisdoms, including Nynaeve, do practice euthanasia.

[Muad Cheade]

We don't know that euthanasia is a crime anywhere in Randland, let alone one punishable by death.

I don't get this comment. I can't remember anyone been euthanised in WoT, though I would think it would happen after battles if there were no Healers around.

 

It was a reply to Muad Cheade's rather silly contention that Rand deserved to die, for "murdering" Fedwin Morr.

 

And, actually, it is clear from the text that Wisdoms, including Nynaeve, do practice euthanasia.

Silly, eh? Well, in a reality in which every human being is reincarnated, euthanasia might be legal (and actually logical) but in ours, it is not. That's the great thing about opinions though.

 

Back to the original topic...

[Lord D]

We don't know that euthanasia is a crime anywhere in Randland, let alone one punishable by death.

I don't get this comment. I can't remember anyone been euthanised in WoT, though I would think it would happen after battles if there were no Healers around.

 

It was a reply to Muad Cheade's rather silly contention that Rand deserved to die, for "murdering" Fedwin Morr.

 

And, actually, it is clear from the text that Wisdoms, including Nynaeve, do practice euthanasia.

It's a very long time since I read WoT books before KoD, so I don't remember everything that happened in the earlier books, though I think I'm pretty good at remembering the major events. I re-read KoD before starting tGS last year, so I'm more familiar with these 2 books, and obviously with ToM.

[plague fiend]

It seems that a lot of people on these forums really hate Egwene. She may be somewhat arrogant now, but I think she has to be a forceful personality to get the fractious Aes Sedai to do anything constructive. Even though she may grate on some people at the moment, I don't think she's anywhere near as bad as Tuon. Here are some good reasons to hate Tuon.

 

1. Tuon participates in the breaking of damane. This is not nice at all.
   
2. She gave Suroth to the Deathwatch Guard to "serve them as they wish". In my opinion, this means that the DW Guard raped Suroth. Even though Suroth was a traitor, and deserved some nasty punishments, this isn't nice at all.
   
3. I think she killed some of her siblings to become the DotNM, although the Seanchan do seem to do this in their royal family anyway.
   

 

My way of fixing Tuon is to leash her, as publicly and in as humiliating a way as possible. It would be fair turnabout.

I like Egwene, out of her, Elayne and Nynaeve, she is the only one who's personality matches her experiences. Tuon is a fresh character with loads of potential. She's mean and nasty, but it is believable, considering where she came from.

[Hyronimus]

Okay, this is a bit frantic but here goes...

 

First, after sending off a massive force against Tarvalon (including most of her Damane)

Demendred's red sailed ships apear and start hammering the coast from Flame to Tear.

 

Then,(and here I have to acknowlage a theory mentioned elswhere, THANK YOU, i don't know who) Garbon, presumably yet another proxie (THEY ARE EVERYWHERE) moves to dispose Tuon with an A'dam around the neck to 'clinch' the deal for the seachan nobles (who are ignorant that the redsails are farsaken lead). Only to be saved by Beslen. The betrayal and beslen's loyalty have been WELL FORSHADOWED.

 

So, Tuon, in the midst of a cival war is desperate to make a deal. Meanwhile, Her Force invading Tarvalon's gate in is foiled-i seriously doubt egwene could leave the city open to Seachen attack she knows is coming, perhapes she manages a ward that aproximates the Dreamspike, again this kind of inovation has been forshadowed.

 

The army is in a position of siege, to be appropriated by MAT stepping up as the Prince of Ravens, 'lewin shipless' plays her part. This is just in time to fend off a shadow spawn attack (I think we can expect these randomly everywhere). After which Mat decides he doesn't like the idea of damane and passes them to the care of the Aes Sedai, on the condition, wait for it, that the seachen be included in the channeller exchange program with channellers made to swear loalty on the oath rod which Tuon knows to work to the emperess(for a time-a year and a day perhapes?)and adds the band and it's cannon to sweeten the deal. He then gates off to save his honey (promising rand he'll be back with the horn in a sec).

 

this siries of events allows Tuon to acknowlage the benifits of some Westland thought, she goes along with the deal(though refuses to learn herself, instead taking one of the fox heads(which all Aes sedai in seachen lands will be required to wear).

 

 

There, poorly spelt opinion with little evidence, but it answers the question.