Is anyone liking how the characters are growing up a little?

[MattTaz]

Min realises that she may actually be a hinderance to Rand's defence and not a last line of defence.

She's finally accepted that the maidens, asha'man Aes Sedai and Wise Ones could actually defend Rand better than her :P

 

Faile says that Perrin has accepted a lot of her ways and its time she actually accepted some of his 2R ways

Remember when Perrin was going to his probable death at Dumai Wells and she wouldnt talk to him because

he wouldnt shout at her????? - seriously could have stepped into the book and smashed her one :)

 

Mat looks at Elayne and Moiraine and thinks what has changed about them and why is Elayne so likeable.

Ummm its your prejudice of nobles and AS that has changed Matrim. He even likes Teslyn and Verin. Not Joline but I

dont think anybody likes her :)

 

Nynaeve thinks the WT may be arrogant to think they know everything and have distanced themselves by not having families

and making them unable to comprehend peoples regular lives.

Lovin whats happening to Nynaeve, gone from one of the worst women characters to one of the best

 

Cadsuane calls Rand a boy and Rand says kindly, I've showed you manners, please show me some in return

Laughed and laughed at that one, still do haha

 

Elayne tells Gawyn that by killing Rand you would doom the world based on your selfishness.

Gawyn has been King of the Tools for me since LoC. Not usually an Elayne fan but punched the air with that one.

 

This is not an RJ bash thread, the characters are getting older and would mature. But just have been really

enjoying how there all growing up in BS's books.

[Sleeper]

Yeah, I agree. I've been rereading the series and found myself just stunned by the character progression in Nynaeve. I hate her in the early books, but she's done a complete about-face and is one of my most-admired characters now, mainly for her refusal to conform to the Aes Sedai ideal of mysteriousvagueannoyingness.

[Ananta]

Yeah, I agree. I've been rereading the series and found myself just stunned by the character progression in Nynaeve. I hate her in the early books, but she's done a complete about-face and is one of my most-admired characters now, mainly for her refusal to conform to the Aes Sedai ideal of mysteriousvagueannoyingness.

 

Nynaeve is one of the characters that has truly stayed true to herself. She's very 'real', so to say.

 

I, too, hated her in the beginning, and now she's my 2nd favorite character. Favorite being Mat, who also had magnificent character progression.

[randsc]

Faile has grown up a bit, certainly. I always gave her a little more of a pass than the other characters, since she was the youngest when we met her.

 

Did Mat change? I'm not so sure. All of the examples you name can be explained by those women beginning to treat Mat decently, rather than attempting to order him about. If they had done the same earlier, would he have disliked them? It sure seems to me that he hasn't lost his distaste for nobles, as a group.

 

Rand of course has grown tremendously, and Perrin, very recently.

 

Egwene has not grown at all.

 

Elayne I see as reverting more toward how her character was in the beginning, before she got quite so self-important. It is a welcome return.

 

Gawyn has been a tool pretty much from the beginning, and remains a tool. He will doubtless die a tool, hopefully in the prologue of aMoL.

 

Moiraine has grown, even if she was 50 when we met her.

[herid]

Min realises that she may actually be a hinderance to Rand's defence and not a last line of defence.

She's finally accepted that the maidens, asha'man Aes Sedai and Wise Ones could actually defend Rand better than her :P

 

Faile says that Perrin has accepted a lot of her ways and its time she actually accepted some of his 2R ways

Remember when Perrin was going to his probable death at Dumai Wells and she wouldnt talk to him because

he wouldnt shout at her????? - seriously could have stepped into the book and smashed her one :)

 

Mat looks at Elayne and Moiraine and thinks what has changed about them and why is Elayne so likeable.

Ummm its your prejudice of nobles and AS that has changed Matrim. He even likes Teslyn and Verin. Not Joline but I

dont think anybody likes her :)

 

Nynaeve thinks the WT may be arrogant to think they know everything and have distanced themselves by not having families

and making them unable to comprehend peoples regular lives.

Lovin whats happening to Nynaeve, gone from one of the worst women characters to one of the best

 

Cadsuane calls Rand a boy and Rand says kindly, I've showed you manners, please show me some in return

Laughed and laughed at that one, still do haha

 

Elayne tells Gawyn that by killing Rand you would doom the world based on your selfishness.

Gawyn has been King of the Tools for me since LoC. Not usually an Elayne fan but punched the air with that one.

 

This is not an RJ bash thread, the characters are getting older and would mature. But just have been really

enjoying how there all growing up in BS's books.

I agree with all of these except the part about Mat's opinion of nobles and Aes Sedai. He has always treated people well if they treated him likewise. He just hasn't seen much of that from any Aes Sedai. And I was actually quite disappointed with the whole "boots" scene and his newly found views about nobles. Mat has repeatedly said in the past that he doesn't like nobles and he specifically doesn't like them because most of them are too arrogant and consider commoners dirt. that comes through quite clearly in a number of early Mat scenes.

take this one:

“Didn’t I say?” The plain-faced man squinted at his cards and scratched his head, then brightened. “Oh, yes. His proclamation, Mat. The Lord Dragon’s. His last one. Where he said commoners had the right to call lords before a magistrate. Who ever heard of a lord being summoned to a magistrate? And for peasants!”

 

Mat’s hand tightened on his purse until the coins inside grated together. “It would be a shame,” he said quietly, “if you were tried and judged just for having your way with a fisherman’s daughter whatever she wanted, or for having some farmer beaten for splashing mud on your cloak.”

 

The others shifted uneasily, catching his mood, but Estean nodded, head bobbing so it seemed about to fall off. “Exactly. Though it wouldn’t come to that, of course. A lord being tried before a magistrate? Of course not. Not really.” He laughed drunkenly at his cards. “No fishermen’s daughters. Smell of fish, you see, however you have them washed. A plump farm girl is best.”

 

Mat told himself he was there to gamble. He told himself to ignore the fool’s blather, reminded himself of how much gold he could take out of Estean’s purse. His tongue did not listen, though. “Who knows what it might come to? Hangings, maybe.”

 

Edorion gave him a sidelong look, guarded and uneasy. “Do we have to talk about . . . about commoners, Estean? What about old Astoril’s daughters? Have you decided which you’ll marry yet?”

 

“What? Oh. Oh, I’ll flip a coin, I suppose.” Estean frowned at his cards, shifted one, and frowned again. “Medore has two or three pretty maids. Perhaps Medore.”

 

Mat took a long drink from his silver wine cup to keep from hitting the man in his farmer’s face.

 

-SR, Ch2

 

 

Now all of a sudden we find that he doesn't have anything against nobles and is simply afraid of responsibility. Very disappointing.

[yoshinobu]

Min realises that she may actually be a hinderance to Rand's defence and not a last line of defence.

She's finally accepted that the maidens, asha'man Aes Sedai and Wise Ones could actually defend Rand better than her :P

 

Faile says that Perrin has accepted a lot of her ways and its time she actually accepted some of his 2R ways

Remember when Perrin was going to his probable death at Dumai Wells and she wouldnt talk to him because

he wouldnt shout at her????? - seriously could have stepped into the book and smashed her one :)

 

Mat looks at Elayne and Moiraine and thinks what has changed about them and why is Elayne so likeable.

Ummm its your prejudice of nobles and AS that has changed Matrim. He even likes Teslyn and Verin. Not Joline but I

dont think anybody likes her :)

 

Nynaeve thinks the WT may be arrogant to think they know everything and have distanced themselves by not having families

and making them unable to comprehend peoples regular lives.

Lovin whats happening to Nynaeve, gone from one of the worst women characters to one of the best

 

Cadsuane calls Rand a boy and Rand says kindly, I've showed you manners, please show me some in return

Laughed and laughed at that one, still do haha

 

Elayne tells Gawyn that by killing Rand you would doom the world based on your selfishness.

Gawyn has been King of the Tools for me since LoC. Not usually an Elayne fan but punched the air with that one.

 

This is not an RJ bash thread, the characters are getting older and would mature. But just have been really

enjoying how there all growing up in BS's books.

I agree with all of these except the part about Mat's opinion of nobles and Aes Sedai. He has always treated people well if they treated him likewise. He just hasn't seen much of that from any Aes Sedai. And I was actually quite disappointed with the whole "boots" scene and his newly found views about nobles. Mat has repeatedly said in the past that he doesn't like nobles and he specifically doesn't like them because most of them are too arrogant and consider commoners dirt. that comes through quite clearly in a number of early Mat scenes.

take this one:

“Didn’t I say?” The plain-faced man squinted at his cards and scratched his head, then brightened. “Oh, yes. His proclamation, Mat. The Lord Dragon’s. His last one. Where he said commoners had the right to call lords before a magistrate. Who ever heard of a lord being summoned to a magistrate? And for peasants!”

 

Mat’s hand tightened on his purse until the coins inside grated together. “It would be a shame,” he said quietly, “if you were tried and judged just for having your way with a fisherman’s daughter whatever she wanted, or for having some farmer beaten for splashing mud on your cloak.”

 

The others shifted uneasily, catching his mood, but Estean nodded, head bobbing so it seemed about to fall off. “Exactly. Though it wouldn’t come to that, of course. A lord being tried before a magistrate? Of course not. Not really.” He laughed drunkenly at his cards. “No fishermen’s daughters. Smell of fish, you see, however you have them washed. A plump farm girl is best.”

 

Mat told himself he was there to gamble. He told himself to ignore the fool’s blather, reminded himself of how much gold he could take out of Estean’s purse. His tongue did not listen, though. “Who knows what it might come to? Hangings, maybe.”

 

Edorion gave him a sidelong look, guarded and uneasy. “Do we have to talk about . . . about commoners, Estean? What about old Astoril’s daughters? Have you decided which you’ll marry yet?”

 

“What? Oh. Oh, I’ll flip a coin, I suppose.” Estean frowned at his cards, shifted one, and frowned again. “Medore has two or three pretty maids. Perhaps Medore.”

 

Mat took a long drink from his silver wine cup to keep from hitting the man in his farmer’s face.

 

-SR, Ch2

 

 

Now all of a sudden we find that he doesn't have anything against nobles and is simply afraid of responsibility. Very disappointing.

Sorry if this quote thing doesnt work, I havent really used it. But in reply to the post that said that Mat does not like nobles but is afraid of responsibility. I politly disagree, and here is why. I think that, in his present state, he still dislikes nobles to some degree, but he has also found respect for some nobles and that has altered his perspective somewhat. Also I do not believe he is afraid of responsibility. He has taken on many and has grown used to the burden. I think that it has more to do with him being hesitent to become what he once dispised. A feeling that I understand and empithize with. Again only my opinion and I apalogyze for any spelling misstakes, I make many.

[ltmundida]

That quote above does not show Mat's inherent hatred of nobles. It just shows a noble making an ass of himself.

And I also have a different view about the boots scene. Mat takes a lot of responsibilities but grew up in an environment where everyone was practical. It makes sense for someone who grew up on the idea that 3 pairs of boots should be enough for anyone to wonder why anyone needs 40. Its all about practicality and excess.

[yoshinobu]

That quote above does not show Mat's inherent hatred of nobles. It just shows a noble making an ass of himself.

And I also have a different view about the boots scene. Mat takes a lot of responsibilities but grew up in an environment where everyone was practical. It makes sense for someone who grew up on the idea that 3 pairs of boots should be enough for anyone to wonder why anyone needs 40. Its all about practicality and excess.

Thats a good idea, so its not about nobles per say but rather he distasts the excess that they tend to induldge in. I like it, and again sorry for any misspellings. Also this 'reply' thing is pretty awesome

[Agelmar]

I think a lot of credit for character development "growing up" can be given to Jordan. For most of the characters that have seen significant development, that development started before Sanderson ever became involved. Rand, Mat, Egwene, and Nynaeve in particular have grown and changed tremendously throughout the series.

 

Perrin and Faile, on the other hand, were caught in a horrific loop of emotional stasis that Sanderson deserves some sort of medal for breaking (it's probably not coincidental that Perrin is the character Sanderson identifies most closely with).

[herid]

 

Sorry if this quote thing doesnt work, I havent really used it. But in reply to the post that said that Mat does not like nobles but is afraid of responsibility. I politly disagree, and here is why. I think that, in his present state, he still dislikes nobles to some degree, but he has also found respect for some nobles and that has altered his perspective somewhat. Also I do not believe he is afraid of responsibility. He has taken on many and has grown used to the burden. I think that it has more to do with him being hesitent to become what he once dispised. A feeling that I understand and empithize with. Again only my opinion and I apalogyze for any spelling misstakes, I make many.

I agree that Mat's perspective on nobles has changed somewhat and he may appreciate difficulties of governing. What I don't like is the change in the reasons for Mat's original dislike of nobles. I stand by what I said about that. he definitely disliked them. And I always felt that he disliked them for their arrogance and unjustifiable feeling of superiority based on their ancestry. I gave only one example but there are many more.

 

Edorion gave him a level look. This Tairen was no dunce. Not that Nalesean was—he was just overeager sometimes—but Edorion had a sharp mind. Nalesean would never have noticed the farriers. Too bad that House Aldiaya outranked House Selorna, or Mat would have had Edorion in Nalesean’s place. Fool nobles and their fool fixation on rank.

 

-LoC, Ch 5

 

 

"That's going to change, Talmanes," Toy growled. "I let it go on too long as it is. If Reimon and the others command banners now, that makes them Banner-Generals. And you a Lieutenant-General. Daerid commands five banners, and that makes him a Lieutenant- General, too. Reimon and the others will obey his orders or they can go home. Come Tarmon Gai'don, I'm not going to have my skull split open because they bloody refuse to listen to somebody who doesn't have bloody estates."

 

KoD, Ch 26

 

There are more examples of this. I liked this a lot about Mat.

 

What I don't like is that all of this seems forgotten in the Boots scene. Instead we get a boots metaphor for responsibility that comes with leadership. and that's definitely what it is. Setalle translates it for us just to make sure everyone gets it.

 

"I see. . . . So you're using boots as a metaphor for the onus of responsibility

and decision placed upon the aristocracy as they assume leadership of

complex political and social positions."

 

-ToM, Ch 52

 

This is exactly what Mat is doing there. He just doesn't like using big fancy words (expurgations anyone?).

 

 

That quote above does not show Mat's inherent hatred of nobles. It just shows a noble making an ass of himself.

No, it shows a noble being a noble. Most of them behave like this.

 

 

 

Perrin and Faile, on the other hand, were caught in a horrific loop of emotional stasis that Sanderson deserves some sort of medal for breaking (it's probably not coincidental that Perrin is the character Sanderson identifies most closely with).

I agree with that! I feel like Perrin's character development over a period of about 4 books before that could be summed up as "Perrin broods". It really grew pretty tiresome. But he is great in ToM.

[Mandro]

Perrin at the end of TSR was prima.

 

Nynaeve is the only woman who has grown into a full person, I think it's becaue she's now collecting full seed of Lan meat.

[David Selig]

I agree that Mat's perspective on nobles has changed somewhat and he may appreciate difficulties of governing. What I don't like is the change in the reasons for Mat's original dislike of nobles. I stand by what I said about that. he definitely disliked them. And I always felt that he disliked them for their arrogance and unjustifiable feeling of superiority based on their ancestry.

Boots was an explanation why Mat himself doesn't want to become a noble, not why he dislikes them.

 

Besides, for all his talk of disliking nobles, he ended up being a close friend of Talmanes, Naelsean and Baeslan, lover to a queen and married and in love to an Empress, so I'd say this dislike was pretty minor, he just liked to whine about it a lot. ;)

[Ananta]

Anyhow, as a reply to the topic name: Isn't that sort of the whole point of the books? The massive character development is pretty much one of the biggest defining aspect of this series. At least in my opinion.

[ltmundida]

I disagree about boots being a metaphor for responsibility. It does not take much responsiblity to decide what shoes to wear to a ball. Besides that, nobles never decide what boots to wear, they have servants. IMO it is very consistant with his view through the series. Nobles dont have a responsibility to own 40 boots. I think Satelle(?) misread Mat's meaning.

[herid]

I agree that Mat's perspective on nobles has changed somewhat and he may appreciate difficulties of governing. What I don't like is the change in the reasons for Mat's original dislike of nobles. I stand by what I said about that. he definitely disliked them. And I always felt that he disliked them for their arrogance and unjustifiable feeling of superiority based on their ancestry.

Boots was an explanation why Mat himself doesn't want to become a noble, not why he dislikes them.

 

ok, that's a good point. But he does dislike them and for a good reason IMO which I would have liked seeing mentioned. Instead all he says is

 

"I have nothing against nobles," Mat said, straightening his coat. "I

just don't fancy being one myself."

 

-ToM, Ch 52

 

Besides, for all his talk of disliking nobles, he ended up being a close friend of Talmanes, Naelsean and Baeslan, lover to a queen and married and in love to an Empress, so I'd say this dislike was pretty minor, he just liked to whine about it a lot. ;)

true, but a few good ones are just an exception to the rule.

 

If Rand tried to give him any titles, he would stuff them down Rand's bloody throat is what he would do. Mat Cauthon had no liking for nobles—well, a few like Talmanes were all right; and Tuon: never forget Tuon—and he certainly had no bloody desire to become one!

 

KoD, CH 25

 

That was just a few months earlier chronologically. now all of a sudden he has nothing against nobles at all.

 

 

I disagree about boots being a metaphor for responsibility. It does not take much responsiblity to decide what shoes to wear to a ball. Besides that, nobles never decide what boots to wear, they have servants. IMO it is very consistant with his view through the series. Nobles dont have a responsibility to own 40 boots. I think Satelle(?) misread Mat's meaning.

“Sa souvraya niende misain ye,”

[Lacanos]

Yeah, I agree. I've been rereading the series and found myself just stunned by the character progression in Nynaeve. I hate her in the early books, but she's done a complete about-face and is one of my most-admired characters now, mainly for her refusal to conform to the Aes Sedai ideal of mysteriousvagueannoyingness.

Offtopic, but can I ask why you find it necessary to bold every single one of your posts? I mean, I don't care particularly, but it does feel like you think your posts need to stand out or some such?

[cgk84]

 

Gawyn has been a tool pretty much from the beginning, and remains a tool. He will doubtless die a tool, hopefully in the prologue of aMoL.

 

 

 

 

You must be joking!?

 

The prologue is too good for him. If the glossary is good enough to finally put The Great Frenzy over Asmodean's killer to rest then it's a good enough place to inform us of the death of Gawyn Trakand. In as few sentances as humanly possible.

[Sleeper]

Yeah, I agree. I've been rereading the series and found myself just stunned by the character progression in Nynaeve. I hate her in the early books, but she's done a complete about-face and is one of my most-admired characters now, mainly for her refusal to conform to the Aes Sedai ideal of mysteriousvagueannoyingness.

Offtopic, but can I ask why you find it necessary to bold every single one of your posts? I mean, I don't care particularly, but it does feel like you think your posts need to stand out or some such?

Just something I picked up a while ago. I do it mainly just as force of habit now.

[GB]

I agree with the fact that it is refreshing to see how much the characters have grown as we progress in the story.

 

though for me, Nynaeve is my favourite female character since the begining and she still is and she has grown a lot more, Egwene should learn a few things from Nynaeve, I like Egwene in her dealings with the WT politics but when she is with her friends she sometimes annoys me.

[ajfurst]

Faile has grown up a bit, certainly. I always gave her a little more of a pass than the other characters, since she was the youngest when we met her.

 

Did Mat change? I'm not so sure. All of the examples you name can be explained by those women beginning to treat Mat decently, rather than attempting to order him about. If they had done the same earlier, would he have disliked them? It sure seems to me that he hasn't lost his distaste for nobles, as a group.

 

Rand of course has grown tremendously, and Perrin, very recently.

 

Egwene has not grown at all.

 

Elayne I see as reverting more toward how her character was in the beginning, before she got quite so self-important. It is a welcome return.

 

Gawyn has been a tool pretty much from the beginning, and remains a tool. He will doubtless die a tool, hopefully in the prologue of aMoL.

 

Moiraine has grown, even if she was 50 when we met her.

I agree with Elayne - she's still annoying, but not quite so much. In books 1-4 when she was just an Accepted and Daughter-Heir she was my favourite female character. Then as she assumed responsibility she started to exhibit some of the bad behaviour of the Nobles/Aes Sedai in the series. She still does, and I still don't like her character currently, but it did tone in down from her peaks of annoying.

 

Mat - his growth took place earlier, it was across TFOH, LOC and KOD that he accepted the full responsibilities of leadership and caring for the men under his command - without the whining of Perrin or 'woe is me' of Rand. Sure he still likes to gamble and look at women (only for his friends of course now!), but growth doesn't mean they become boring.

 

And I'm loath to agree with your Egwene comment in case it becomes another thread on it, but I agree 100% she's the only character not to have grown as a person, rather then just acquire power, responsibilities and abilities. A better channeler, a better politician and a better dreamer - yes to all. The only one (along with Elayne) yet to have the epiphany/revelation to themselves or others that they've majorly and regularly stuffed things up in the past or not been right about everything.

[Mandro]

Matt I think has progressed the least, because he was the one who needed it the least. Matt was always insoucient and seemingly self centered, but he was always honorable. Matt is one of my favorite characters because, well, he's a warrior. He likes a Drink a Gamble and a Kiss, but when the boots hit the road he's right there marching and fighting. Not for glory, but out of grudging duty. Grudging or not he faces that duty and he excels. Mat is the perfect warrior, because that is what warriors do. The bitch, the moan, they complain, they drink, they gamble, they engage in a little kiss and tickle, but when the rubber meats the road, they run forward and they fight.