is Taim Moridin?

[JediMindTrick]

Moridin is Ishy!

 

and

 

Demandred and Mazrim Taim are one and the same. Robert Jordan once said "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred." Ok fine, no problem. His real name is Mazrim Taim or perhaps somethining else. Therefore when he says "Mazrim Taim is not Demandred" he is technically telling the truth since anytime you use an alias you are not truly your alias. If you say an alias is not truly an alias name your also telling the truth. RJ loved playing word games like that. One inverted weave later and Lews Therin / Rand does not recognize Taim as the Demandred from the old days.

 

In other words:

 

My real name is Rik. Now say I go around telling people my name is Bob. Then someone who knows says "Rik is not Bob." Well that is true as I am not Bob, I am actually Rik. They are absolutely correct that Rik is not in fact Bob but at the same time the person some know as Bob and the person some know as Rik are one and the same.

[Terez]

If you actually look up the Demandred quotes you'll see it was worded in a number of different ways, so your argument doesn't work.

 

Also, I just realized that Taim's orders were for Cairhien, but Demandred's and Moridin's orders were for Far Madding.

[Muad Cheade]

When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras.

 

Everyone please just take RJ saying "Taim is not Demandred" for what it really is.

[yoniy0]

we never once see [Taim] actually channel saidin after CoS (that's a period of 6 books). we don't even get 3rd person references of somebody seeing Taim channel saidin after CoS.

Actually that's not completely accurate. In KoD epilogue, Pevara meets Taim, and an attending Ashaman who says too much get punished rather swiftly. The likeliest candidate for the punisher is Taim, the way that scene is worded:

A tall, golden-haired man standing near the dais sneered at her. "Why should we allow Aes Sedai to take any m-" Something unseen struck the side of his head so hard that his feet left the floor tiles before he fell in a heap, eyes closed and blood trickling from his nostrils.

A lean man with receding gray-streaked hair and a forked beard bent to touch a finger to the fallen man's head. "He's alive," he said as he straightened, "but his skull's cracked and his jaw's broken." He might have been talking about the weather. None of the men made any move to offer Healing. Not one!

"I have some small skill in Healing." Melare said, gathering her skirts and already moving toward the fallen man. "Enough for this, I think. With your permission."

Taim shook his head. "You do not have my permission. If Mishraile survives till nightfall, he'll be Healed. Perhaps the pain will teach him to guard his tongue. You say you want to bond Warders? Reds?"

Now, whether he used sai'din is a different question, I guess.

[herid]

we never once see [Taim] actually channel saidin after CoS (that's a period of 6 books). we don't even get 3rd person references of somebody seeing Taim channel saidin after CoS.

Actually that's not completely accurate. In KoD epilogue, Pevara meets Taim, and an attending Ashaman who says too much get punished rather swiftly. The likeliest candidate for the punisher is Taim, the way that scene is worded:

A tall, golden-haired man standing near the dais sneered at her. "Why should we allow Aes Sedai to take any m-" Something unseen struck the side of his head so hard that his feet left the floor tiles before he fell in a heap, eyes closed and blood trickling from his nostrils.

A lean man with receding gray-streaked hair and a forked beard bent to touch a finger to the fallen man's head. "He's alive," he said as he straightened, "but his skull's cracked and his jaw's broken." He might have been talking about the weather. None of the men made any move to offer Healing. Not one!

"I have some small skill in Healing." Melare said, gathering her skirts and already moving toward the fallen man. "Enough for this, I think. With your permission."

Taim shook his head. "You do not have my permission. If Mishraile survives till nightfall, he'll be Healed. Perhaps the pain will teach him to guard his tongue. You say you want to bond Warders? Reds?"

Now, whether he used sai'din is a different question, I guess.

ah, I missed that. thanks for the quote. yes, this very much looks like it's Taim channeling saidin. the other options are possible but much less likely.

It's quite unlikely that anybody but Taim would punish one of Asha'man in his presence without asking permission. and it's pretty unlikely that Taim would channel TP in the open even if he is surrounded by his followers who might know that he channels TP already.

[Charles Mahan]

Haven't read the whole thing yet, but would like to chime in on something. Apologies if it's already been addressed.

 

There seem to be a lot of folks wondering why the foresaken would outsource the black tower, which you would think would be the as important as managing the white tower where Mesana setup shop. I don't find it particularly surprising at all to see them working through a proxy there. Let's not forget, the black tower is full of men channeling through the taint. Some small percentage will go mad every so often. There's a lot of VERY real danger in being anywhere near the black tower, and the foresaken know it better than most. Add to that the generally cowardly nature of most of the foresaken(why risk eternal life if it isn't necessary?), and it shouldn't be all that surprising.

 

It might also help to remember that the foresaken probably don't put as much stock in channelers as the rest of Randland does. They come from a time when channelers were quite common and most institutions of any note would be full of them. They just aren't all that special. Manipulating organizations full of channelers through infiltration, forced turnings to the dark one, mind traps, and outright Compulsion were the usual MO for the forsaken back in the day.

[Kestrel]

Haven't read the whole thing yet, but would like to chime in on something. Apologies if it's already been addressed.

 

There seem to be a lot of folks wondering why the foresaken would outsource the black tower, which you would think would be the as important as managing the white tower where Mesana setup shop. I don't find it particularly surprising at all to see them working through a proxy there. Let's not forget, the black tower is full of men channeling through the taint. Some small percentage will go mad every so often. There's a lot of VERY real danger in being anywhere near the black tower, and the foresaken know it better than most. Add to that the generally cowardly nature of most of the foresaken(why risk eternal life if it isn't necessary?), and it shouldn't be all that surprising.

 

You didn't say how far you've read, but the channeling issues faced by the men are significantly altered before the Last Battle. You have good ideas, but RJ himself addresses them in one of the later books.

[herid]

An update on this thread. I have written up a blog post detailing various pro and con arguments for the theory from this and other threads on the forum. Thanks to all for the comments.

[OptimusPrime]

Good post herid, more organized than I could have done it

[Ananta]

I think that Taim is just Taim, not anyone else. But I'm open to other options. Waiting for AMOL.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just come to have my say, not really arguing for or against.

 

I can certainly see how Moridin could be Taim. There are many holes in the theory, but i would not be altogether suprised to find out Taim is Moridin.

 

But to be honest, I would just rather Taim - Taim. I would be much more impressed if Taim was just a 3rd ager who trained under Forsaken or something. The Black Ajah and 3rd age Darkfriends really dont do much. The Forsaken are the only ones who achieve anything, and even they dont really do that much good (or bad i suppose).

 

Besides, Moridin already has enough to do. He is Nae'blis, connected to Rand, organizing the armies of the Blight (TGS Prologue), channeling the TP in vast amounts, one of the Forsaken.

 

To add the Black Tower to the list, its just too much. It would be much better if it was another person, just good old DF Taim who has made something of himself.

[Red2111]

you know, i'm kinda torn on this. looking at Taim as a character in the books as i re-read i want to say he's eiher a very powerful dreadlord (or newly made Forsaken) or he's a Forsaken in disguise. my first guess initially was that he was Demandred; but as i take an authors words at face value i re looked at the clues and coem to think that if he is a forsaken in disguise then he's Ishy.

 

Taim's disappearance coorespondes with Ishy being severed in tDR. i'm not saying that this entire time Ishy was Taim, because theres no way Ishy could have been at the battle in Falme & fighting in Saldea as Taim at the same time. impossible even in Randland.

 

but the thing for me is looking at Taim himself and the reaction from LTT. mostly it's LTT"s reaction to Taim, the KILL HIM and struggling to take control of the power every time Rand is near Taim. the only person i can see LTT reacting to liek this is Ishy, for what Ishy did to him and just the enternal struggle the Dragons soul and Nae'Bliss's soul have through the ages.

 

then there is Taim's reaction to Rand opening a Gateway. its a "How the heck did you figure out that" type of look. as well as the smug look and attitude Taim takes on when Rand is showing him how to do things. the "you have no clue who your dealing with" type of attitude (which he has even when he first approaches Rand in the Lion Throne room)

 

 

 

EDIT: You must be kidding me. Three people still support the Taimadred theory (and are willing to admit it in public )? You guys, RJ was VERY clear on the matter. Taim's a red herring, that's all.

 

people did the same with Dumbledore and the "He isnt dead" after half Blood Prince came out and he was flung off a 40 foot building without a wand and the Author pointedly said "DD is dead, sorry guys." they wont be convinced it's not a brilliant manuever by the autor until the last book *nods*

[OptimusPrime]

I just cant accept the idea of him being a red herring. Funny, when I first started banging on about Moridin being Taim nobody agreed

[DPT24]

There's something strange about Taim, but I just can't see him as Moridin. Moridin seems a lot more philosophical where as Taim seems much more blunt and aggressive. Moridin is the Shadow's grand strategist where as Taim is one of their best foot soldier. There aren't a lot of the Forsaken left, and Taim's apparently been more successful than most of them, anyways. It'd be a shame if he turned out to just be Moridin.

[mb]

Actually, Lews Therin's reaction also applied to Ashamen, not just Taim.

 

About Doubledore, that is a different series and a different author. Slight chance of that applying to this series and/or this author.

[yoniy0]

Both authors did nothing to suggest they might be willing to flat out lie to their readers.

[Southpaw89]

I think Taim is just Taim but is led by Moridin. He was probably given free reign from Moridin to do what he wants as long as he has Asha'man ready by Tarmon Gai'don

[Duskfire]

There's something strange about Taim, but I just can't see him as Moridin. Moridin seems a lot more philosophical where as Taim seems much more blunt and aggressive. Moridin is the Shadow's grand strategist where as Taim is one of their best foot soldier. There aren't a lot of the Forsaken left, and Taim's apparently been more successful than most of them, anyways. It'd be a shame if he turned out to just be Moridin.

 

Agreed. They are completely different personalities. Taim is alot like Demandred personality wise, which is mostly the reason for that theory. I struggle to believe that they are one and the same person, and I would be dissapointed if that was the case. Except for maybe Alvarian, darkfriends havent really accomplished anything at all. Taim being just a kickass darkfriend would be refreshing.

[OptimusPrime]

There's something strange about Taim, but I just can't see him as Moridin. Moridin seems a lot more philosophical where as Taim seems much more blunt and aggressive. Moridin is the Shadow's grand strategist where as Taim is one of their best foot soldier. There aren't a lot of the Forsaken left, and Taim's apparently been more successful than most of them, anyways. It'd be a shame if he turned out to just be Moridin.

 

Agreed. They are completely different personalities. Taim is alot like Demandred personality wise, which is mostly the reason for that theory. I struggle to believe that they are one and the same person, and I would be dissapointed if that was the case. Except for maybe Alvarian, darkfriends havent really accomplished anything at all. Taim being just a kickass darkfriend would be refreshing.

 

In a way it would be refreshing, but I think for him to simply be just another Darkfriend channeler would undermine his buildup. I still dont think the 13x13 thing is IT with Taim, theres something else. If he isnt Moridin then I think hes a Ta'veren come Darkfriend, as in he was Ta'veren first, and the Pattern had him become a Darkfriend as some sort of subconsious insider job still waiting to happen. Like Verin, but as if she thought she was a proper Darkfriend.

 

The proverbial moneys on Mazridin though.

 

EDIT: Just as an afterthought, that may have looked like I was saying Verin was a Ta'veren come Darkfriend. That WAS NOT what I was saying.

[Mongoose]

I don't think Taim is Moridin.

 

To Moridin's thinking, he seems to be plaing with value pieces while Taim is playing with pawns.

 

It's pretty clear Taim is a Dreadlord, though.

[mb]

Only thing that seems certain to me about Taim is that he is non-Light (which is not necessarily Dark side).

 

A POV from Taim would be the main thing that would make Taim's alliance certain to me.

An on-screen comment/thought from a Forsaken about Taim would be another thing.

[OptimusPrime]

Ive just realized how insignificant Taims double order really is

[Red2111]

Actually, Lews Therin's reaction also applied to Ashamen, not just Taim.

 

About Doubledore, that is a different series and a different author. Slight chance of that applying to this series and/or this author.

 

but his reaction to Taim was extreme and almost resulted in Rand losing control. this only happens very few times; when LTT is feeling very suicidal atm or when he sees somethign that is a major threat or sparks an extreme case of vegence in him. the only perosn to strike an extreme case of vengence in him would be Ishy.

 

 

 

as to DD. another person said they coudln't believe soemoen still supports the Demandred theory after RJ specifically said Taim is not Demandred. i was only pointing to another series where the Author plainly stated DD is dead, yet some readers still refused to believe he was dead. nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

I don't think Taim is Moridin.

 

To Moridin's thinking, he seems to be plaing with value pieces while Taim is playing with pawns.

 

It's pretty clear Taim is a Dreadlord, though.

 

 

i think he's more than a Dreadlord. i think he's a newly made Forsaken. i mean, with all the DO's Forsaken being Balefired or recycled into less powerful bodies, it woudl seem a smart move on the DO's part to make another Forsaken given the chance for someone both strong enough and in a position of power (which Tiam is) i refuse to believe he's just another dread lord though; and i don't think taim woudl settle for being just a Dread Lord either.

 

i mean, by all accounts, the dude is almost as strong as Rand in LoC (maybe strong as Rand wasn't able to judge but suspected Taim was holding back) even at that power, taim is stronger in the OP than half the Forsaken. thats got to count for something.

[OptimusPrime]

I take Egwenes Dream about the Midnight Towers as proof that Taim is not a new Chosen.This is the kind of series where almost every opportunity to foreshadow is used. Egwenes Dream would be the perfect time to show a new Chosens existence,because that Dream showed the Chosens rises and falls. No fourteenth tower for me is as good as saying there are no new candidates, and seeing as Demandred is outruled beyond question... Taim has the black aura. That is as good as phorensic evidence that Taim is something even greater than the average Chosen.

 

Too much hints at Moridin. Its like ... never mind I will leave it there

[Suttree]

One thing I would like Taim=Moridin supporters to convincingly explain is why Moridin would allow himself to be harried across half a continent in traveling to Andor? This also more clearly than any other reason explains Bashere being uncertain as to his appearance initially. RJ's quotes throw a pretty big stick in the spoke on this one.

 

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

Rand misjudges Taim’s age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn’t look so old.

 

 

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Sodas: Is there anything you can tell us about Taim's choice to head to Andor after his escape?

RJ: Well, he really didn't have much other choice. He's a man who can channel. At that time, as far as he knows, any Aes Sedai that gets their hands on him will try to gentle him again. But the word is getting around: there are men gathering near Caemlyn, men just like him, and maybe there are enough of them that if they stick together the Aes Sedai will not be able to take them down. So he has no other choice. He can either spend a life on the run or he can enlist. He decided to enlist.