is Taim Moridin?

[yoniy0]

Let's quit it before this becomes a shouting match. Drekka had a very good idea - if you have something new to say go ahead. If you're just frustrated that others don't accept what you've said already, let it go. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

[Guest mike03]

Nah its not because people arent convinced mike, its because people expect me to have an open mind about it while not opening their own. Some are worse for it than others, but I get tired of doing this every time someone says something.

 

I still don't think that you have clearly shown what makes being in the Black Tower as Taim more important than just telling Taim to do it. He can still run it as he wants to through Taim.

 

The important part is that Taim is dead mate! Assuming Moridin is Taim for a second, if you can, it doesnt matter how posing as Taim is more important than just telling Taim to do it, BECAUSE TAIM IS DEAD AND CANT BE TOLD JACK.

 

Moridin: Hey Taim, come back from the dead for me pal, it would make more sense for you to go into the Black Tower instead of me, although I have no idea how you would because I have your body.

 

Sorry mike. Maybe you can see why I am trying to drop out. Even I get fed up of saying the same thing over and over and over.

 

It sounds like you have made a few assumptions to come to your conclusion, such as stating that Taim is dead as a fact. It's fine if you believe certain things, but stating them as facts as a reason to respond to my question is not a logical argument.

 

In regards to this topic, I can certainly understand how it can be tiring to continue to argue the same points because there is no way to prove anything and we won't know until the last book. You may be right that Moridin is Taim, or you might not. The only thing that I would say is that it seems less likely that Moridin is Taim based on the story and the information that we have seen, and therefore, I wanted to better understand your reasoning process that makes you feel convinced about it. Simple as that, but please don't feel the need to explain further. I'm good with what I have read.

[Guest mike03]

Let's quit it before this becomes a shouting match. Drekka had a very good idea - if you have something new to say go ahead. If you're just frustrated that others don't accept what you've said already, let it go. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

 

I don't understand why you think that it would become a shouting match. I enjoy hearing new perspectives and debating them. If you look at my posts on this topic, I was trying to better understand his reasoning. I don't think that debating an opinion has anything to do with not accepting an opinion. You can accept a person's opinion, but still disagree with the reasoning process to come to that conclusion. That's how solutions are created, through the dialectical process of taking different perspectives. However, if that's not welcome on the site, I certainly don't mind not posting again. I have barely posted as it is. I noticed that you are a staff member, so please feel free to delete my account or let me know how to delete it. Thanks.

[capuga]

Let's quit it before this becomes a shouting match. Drekka had a very good idea - if you have something new to say go ahead. If you're just frustrated that others don't accept what you've said already, let it go. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

 

I don't understand why you think that it would become a shouting match. I enjoy hearing new perspectives and debating them. If you look at my posts on this topic, I was trying to better understand his reasoning. I don't think that debating an opinion has anything to do with not accepting an opinion. You can accept a person's opinion, but still disagree with the reasoning process to come to that conclusion. That's how solutions are created, through the dialectical process of taking different perspectives. However, if that's not welcome on the site, I certainly don't mind not posting again. I have barely posted as it is. I noticed that you are a staff member, so please feel free to delete my account or let me know how to delete it. Thanks.

 

I don't think that yoniy0 was picking on your posts specifically. They have been very reasonable and thoughtful. He's just seen how these types of debates have blown up in the past. Nothing against you. Since you are obviously an intelligent poster (since you agree with me that Taim is not Moridin ) I hope that you continue to post.

[FarShainMael]

The beauty of carrying on a debate on a mb is that everything is there for others to read through and consider at their leisure, whereas in a spoken debate there is no record (unless someone's taking notes!) and you tend to forget the details. There is, therefore, less pressure. If I reach the point where I'm not getting through, having to repeat myself, or just getting no response at all, I just try to back off knowing that I've had my say and it's there for people to read. (Doesn't always work, of course.. sometimes I just get SO annoyed that I start to weave balefire.. )

[Mr Ares]

They all come within a fairly short space of time. Between Cairhien and Far Madding, Taim reiterates the kill order, then Demandred gives the kill order, then Moridin gives the steal his stuff order. What changes in that short space of time to convince Moridin (if he is Taim) to change his mind about what he wants? I don't think Mark Grayson meant "at the same time" as in they were all in the same room together, more in the general sense that there is only s short space of time for these three meetings and the orders.

 

No they are not given at the same time!

I didn't say they were. I said they all came within a short space of time.

 

It would make Taim seem a bit indecisive, but the order would be clear enough

 

You do realize, Mr Ares, that you have just given me yet another reason to discount the so-called contradiction between Moridin and Taim? Not that I needed another one, but when someone who opposes a theory does something like that, well. It can work wonders. If Taim giving seperate orders makes himself seem uncertain, then Moridin being Taim and giving the different orders is his way of hiding his uncertainty from these 3rd Age idiots.

And in doing so confuses them and makes it less likely he will get what he wants. If he does have to change his mind for some reason, it's not like his underlings will expect a lengthy explanation as to why. It doesn't reflect that badly on him to change his mind, and giving a clear set of orders benefits him more than confusing them with two sets of orders.

 

If he values his life, both of them. Remember, the kill order from a more senior Darkfriend is still in place. Kisman has his orders. If there was only one set of orders, figuring out what to do would be simple: kill or steal. Assassination or heist. As it is, he has to do both. If Moridin doesn't care about the death, he is getting his men to waste time on it for no reason. If he only cares about the death, then they have no reason to focus on the theft. By giving two sets of orders, both of which must be followed, you make things harder on your men.

 

Well, I see it as an attempt to simply get in Rands way. If Rand dies because of it, fine, he cant Cleanse saidin. If he loses the access key, then he cant Cleanse saidin. The results are the same, despite different orders.

It's a question of focus. What do you want these guys to do. If you want him dead, say so. If you want his stuff, say so. If you don't mind which, you just them as an obstruction, say so. Clarity benefits you here much more than giving two sets of orders. As it is, they have to plan to kill him and steal his stuff - they have to do both, not one or the other. If Moridin wanted both done, why not say? If he only wants one done, why give two orders? If Taim and Moridin are two men with two objectives, it is easy to see why they might give different orders. If they are the same, it becomes more convoluted. Changing his mind on something is a tiny knock to his image, at most, and comes with the upside of your underlings knowing what you want them to do, so they don't waste time on something you just don't care that much about.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

Well after thinking about this for awhile I have come to believe that Taim is under Moridin's or Demandred's direct control via a cour'souvra. We have had this gun on the mantle since what book 6 or 7? Too many similarties for him to be his own person because he hasn't been written as his own person, but as a copy or a shadow of Moridin and to a lesser extent Demandred.

[OptimusPrime]

via a cour'souvra

 

That kind of thing would definitely fill in the missing piece in my head if he was just Taim. Thank you very much.

[Ferdawoon]

I admit to having skipped about half this thread, so sorry if this have already been thought of.

 

I'm reading about him on http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Mazrim_Taim#Hidden_Agenda and adding some replies and thoughts here.

 

 

Could it be that Taim is not a Darkfriend, Forsaken, Moridin's Pawn or anything like that, at all? That he is simply just an overzealous fanatic in the line of Masema?

 

I'm thinking that the dark and empty eyes, that the people who are not themselves at all, are just the result of Taim using Compulsion to turn them into living weapons, something Rand have told him to. The Compulsion have just removed things human about them making them into more efficient killing machines.

That is part of the importance of Rand, before the meeting with the Borderlanders in ToM, sending Naeff to the BT to investigate what is going on and to tell them tht they should not be weapons but loving men.

 

I mean, Taim have been helping Rand at least a few times. Could ofcourse be that the Dark dont want Rand dead. Taim send 200 Asha'man to help Rand at Dumai Wells (number according to wot.wikia), The Darkfriend Asha'man sent from the BT to kill Rand could be from someone impersonating Taim (which we have seen happen before. Poor Masema come to mind), or just that part of the plan was that they blame it on Taim if interrogated.

When Rand put Fedwin morr to sleep in PoD chapter 29 he mention that Rand is turning hard. Not read that passage in a long time, and when I did it had been translated anyway, so I dont know if he say it as someone who is looking forward to Rand turning Dark, the way he do up until the end of tGS or if it is more with sorrow, because he know what will happen if Rand do not come to his senses.

 

Yes there are a lot of indications that he is probably not all good, him using terms from the Age of Legends about the Aiel, that he say "Let the lord of Chaos rule" etc, but I'm just throwing this out there.

[Suttree]

Since there has been a new thread launched just wanted to bump so we could continue here...

[WhiskyJack]

For Taim to be Moridin:

1) Moridin has mirror of mask on, non-stop. Most don't know what Moridin looks but Rand does. Big risk to play Taim in front of him.

2) Taim is very arrogant and jealous of Rand's position. Doesn't sound Moridin.

3) Moridin will have to overcome his extreme hate of OP to fake Taim. If he is using TP to fake Taim, would sa'a be visible in his eyes.

4) Taim intitally wanted to stay close to Rand. He was very unhappy when Rand shunted him to a position of teacher on some farm but Taim made the best of it. Doesn't seem like a "plan" if that's why Moridin approached Rand as Taim.

 

Just few points I find that don't fit.

[OptimusPrime]

For Taim to be Moridin:

1) Moridin has mirror of mask on, non-stop. Most don't know what Moridin looks but Rand does. Big risk to play Taim in front of him.

2) Taim is very arrogant and jealous of Rand's position. Doesn't sound Moridin.

3) Moridin will have to overcome his extreme hate of OP to fake Taim. If he is using TP to fake Taim, would sa'a be visible in his eyes.

4) Taim intitally wanted close to Rand. He was very unhappy when Rand shunted him to a position of teacher on some farm but Taim made the bes of it. Doesn't seem like a "plan" if that's why Moridin approached Rand as Taim.

 

Just few points I find that don't fit.

 

1) Taim has been physically touched. If he is Moridin, it means a True Power disguise is not the same as the One Power version.

2) Arrogant, yes. Jealous? Not in my oppinion. More like angry each time Rand does something Taim didnt see coming, like the Dragon and Pin. Moridin already had his ideas for Black Tower symbology.

3) Moridin doesnt hate the One Power and has never said so. People place too much stock in Demandreds thoughts about Moridin. Dem thought "this guy must be using TP exclusively to have the sa'a already." First things first, its a judgement made on Demandreds part, and Demandred is just a man and not gospel material, and secondly, if we were to say Taim is Moridin, it means Moridin hasnt been channeling TP exclusively, but near permanently. Moridin has been posing as Taim near permanently since book 6. THATS why the sa'a are there already. Demandred refuses to channel the True Power so what would he know anyway? And no the sa'a would not appear in a True Power disguise for the same reason it wouldnt through the OP disguise. The point of any disguise is to hide what is already there. We dont see the sa'a through the disguise for the same reason we wouldnt if Taim was stood round a corner-because something is in the way (the disguise)

4) How does it not sound like a plan? Moridin went to Rand as Taim so he could whisper in Rands ear like he did to Hawkwing. Difference is Rand made him stay and train people. Moridin was initially angry at the idea because he wanted to manipulate Rand himself, but Moridins a crafty fellow.

[Thor]

Taim is NOT the same height as Morridin, Morridin is the same height as Rand.

[Finnssss22]

Well after thinking about this for awhile I have come to believe that Taim is under Moridin's or Demandred's direct control via a cour'souvra. We have had this gun on the mantle since what book 6 or 7? Too many similarties for him to be his own person because he hasn't been written as his own person, but as a copy or a shadow of Moridin and to a lesser extent Demandred.

 

I have thought for a while now that the third cour'souvra that Moridin carries, contains Taim's soul. Obviously, it's nothing more than a guess though.

[herid]

Well after thinking about this for awhile I have come to believe that Taim is under Moridin's or Demandred's direct control via a cour'souvra. We have had this gun on the mantle since what book 6 or 7? Too many similarties for him to be his own person because he hasn't been written as his own person, but as a copy or a shadow of Moridin and to a lesser extent Demandred.

 

I have thought for a while now that the third cour'souvra that Moridin carries, contains Taim's soul. Obviously, it's nothing more than a guess though.

there is never any mentioning of any third cour'souvra in Moridin's posession. besides Taim behaves absolutely nothing like someone who is mindtrapped.

[Finnssss22]

Well after thinking about this for awhile I have come to believe that Taim is under Moridin's or Demandred's direct control via a cour'souvra. We have had this gun on the mantle since what book 6 or 7? Too many similarties for him to be his own person because he hasn't been written as his own person, but as a copy or a shadow of Moridin and to a lesser extent Demandred.

 

I have thought for a while now that the third cour'souvra that Moridin carries, contains Taim's soul. Obviously, it's nothing more than a guess though.

there is never any mentioning of any third cour'souvra in Moridin's posession. besides Taim behaves absolutely nothing like someone who is mindtrapped.

 

You're prolly right, just a long time musing on my part.

I guess he only have 2, not sure why I thought he had a 3rd one.

[OptimusPrime]

Taim is NOT the same height as Morridin, Morridin is the same height as Rand.

 

I picked up on that myself, its the Lord of Chaos reference, apparantly this was altered in future editions of the book. Also, in Winters Heart Elayne says Taim is easily as tall as Rand.

 

So Taim IS as tall as Moridin.

[mb]

Height alone is not conclusive since Illusion can be done.

 

Though the books up through Gathering Storm do not tell whether Taim knew Illusion.

[Suttree]

Height alone is not conclusive since Illusion can be done.

 

Though the books up through Gathering Storm do not tell whether Taim knew Illusion.

 

Some thoughts from RJ on the subject of illusion...

 

 

Lord of Chaos book tour Seattle 25 October 1994 - Tony Zbaraschuk reporting

 

Q: Can the Power really be used to make you different? [This arose as part of a discussion of Illusion ("Mirror of Mists" is an old name for the same thing).]

RJ: Illusion is illusion. Doesn't fool the sense of touch, so you have to be really subtle (such as Moghedien's disguise) to avoid detection.

Q: So Sammael couldn't make himself taller?

RJ: He could make himself look taller, but he's not interested in looking taller. He wants to be taller. Besides, any sufficiently experienced man would be able to tell that it was illusion.

[DigitalSoul]

Maybe there is some clues in how Taim reacts to Rand possibly going mad or getting killed.

In the begining, at he farm, Taim seems to be worried about Rand going mad already. And then he saves him

at Dumais wells. But later he orders the attack on Rand in Caihrien. Why the change of heart?

 

If Taim is Moridin, why didnt Rand recognice him in Shadar Logoth?

[Vambram]

Taim is just Taim.

 

 

Moridin is Ishamael reincarnated by the Dark One.

 

 

Taim is NOT Moridin.

 

Moridin is NOT Taim.

[OptimusPrime]

Maybe there is some clues in how Taim reacts to Rand possibly going mad or getting killed.

In the begining, at he farm, Taim seems to be worried about Rand going mad already. And then he saves him

at Dumais wells. But later he orders the attack on Rand in Caihrien. Why the change of heart?

 

An insane Ta'veren is difficult to control. Moridin wants to control Rand, Rand going mad sooner than expected would create problems.

 

If Taim is Moridin, why didnt Rand recognice him in Shadar Logoth?

 

Because he wasnt wearing the True Power not-illusion disguise at Shadar Logoth, and Rand had only seen the disguise prior to that encounter.

[mb]

The quoted statement about recognizing Illusion, I guess that would apply also to True Power Illusion. Not entirely certain.

 

And saa I guess cannot be disguised. Moridin spying on Graendal & Sammael could be one indicator of that.

[Hyronimus]

You're prolly right, just a long time musing on my part.

I guess he only have 2, not sure why I thought he had a 3rd one

 

I'm sorry if this has been talked to death as I haven't been through the thread in a while, but this caught my eye.

Finnnsss I'm pretty sure your right here, I have a pretty clear memory of when moggy first has the mindtrap fitted and she is with Moridin who demostrates its power by stroking it (which she feels) Cyn is there too, one of the first times we meet her and moggy notes she shudders or something, and as he is putting them away she spots a third and notes how she wants to know whose it is.

 

Of course I don't have the page or chapter, the forsaken scenes tend to be slipped in with other events,so no doubt this will be dismissed. but i'm pretty damn sure.

 

it was only a few books later that I thought about how Moridin put the girls in black and red that i made the connection to Taim. i was stuck on the whole Taim is Demandred for a while.

 

The mindtrap however does not effect the person's personality at all, it simply insures their obedience. in fact Taims attituded brings to mind how someone forced to obey (i don't think he was ever a nice guy, but probably too full of himself-wanting to be the dragon and all-to simply obey Moridin)might act. In fact, thinking about it now, Rand putting that pin on him would have simply reminded him of being 'pinned' in the other way.

 

Pretty obvious really.

[herid]

You're prolly right, just a long time musing on my part.

I guess he only have 2, not sure why I thought he had a 3rd one

 

I'm sorry if this has been talked to death as I haven't been through the thread in a while, but this caught my eye.

Finnnsss I'm pretty sure your right here, I have a pretty clear memory of when moggy first has the mindtrap fitted and she is with Moridin who demostrates its power by stroking it (which she feels) Cyn is there too, one of the first times we meet her and moggy notes she shudders or something, and as he is putting them away she spots a third and notes how she wants to know whose it is.

 

no, this is wrong. here is the quote.

 

He reached into the open neck of his shirt, and her own tongue clove to the roof of her mouth. Her eyes fixed on the small cage of gold wire and blood-red crystal that he drew out dangling on a cord. She thought vaguely that he tucked another just like it back in, but she had eyes only for her own.

-CoS, Ch 25

There are only two mindtraps mentioned here. There is never a mention of a third in this scene or anywhere else.

 

Of course I don't have the page or chapter, the forsaken scenes tend to be slipped in with other events,so no doubt this will be dismissed. but i'm pretty damn sure.

 

it was only a few books later that I thought about how Moridin put the girls in black and red that i made the connection to Taim. i was stuck on the whole Taim is Demandred for a while.

 

The mindtrap however does not effect the person's personality at all, it simply insures their obedience. in fact Taims attituded brings to mind how someone forced to obey (i don't think he was ever a nice guy, but probably too full of himself-wanting to be the dragon and all-to simply obey Moridin)might act. In fact, thinking about it now, Rand putting that pin on him would have simply reminded him of being 'pinned' in the other way.

 

Pretty obvious really.

I couldn't disagree more. Taim never behaves anything at all like someone who is mindtrapped. He is a highly independent operator who runs BT with an iron fist like his private playground. He is always in control and is full of himself. he even calls himself M'hael which means leader of all. This doesn't look the least bit like someone on a leash like Moggy who is constantly afraid to act for herself and whose main aspiration is to get rid of the mindtrap somehow.