Character Immortality

[Puck]

It does have it's downside. Just imagine if, after hundreds of pages had been devoted to Perrin's, "FAAAAAIILLLLLEEE!!!!!" arc, he had just ...died.

 

That's pretty much the Red Wedding.

 

 

Rob was never really a main character though, you never read anything from his POV. So he never really had plot armor.

[Muad Cheade]

I would prefer to say undead.

Touche.

 

Given the way her story ended in AFFC, I think it very likely Brienne is still alive (otherwise why end on that "she screamed a word" line?). As for Davos, it could go either way, but he's a PoV in ADWD anyway, so we'll see when that's released. But I'm a fan of Davos, so I'm hoping he survives.

True. Although she was in that very precarious position, that line must have meant something. The PoVs of Davos in aDwD were before he was to have been beheaded but we'll see.

 

it's not about wanting characters to be killed off in some blood thirsty need for death. It's about creating realism and showing struggle. RJ's own words. Everything our plot armoured characters do, it turns to gold. Everytime a baddy corners our frightened little light characters, they somehow dodge through and when one wonders how, you get the usual Tavern response BS or luck. How is then any reader supposed to feel any sort of tension that RJ wanted to convey? I am not criticisng RJ's writing. I mean i love the books with its rich story telling. But RJ overshot himself in trying to convince readers that it's a bleak desperate world out there where the light is underattack and on the ropes.

We've seen multiple times that our heroes can and will be scarred. It is unlikely that Rand will die before he reaches Shayol Ghul but the scenes in which he was tested and attacked drew you in, no? For example, his capture by Elaida/Mesaana's Aes Sedai in LoC, cleansing the taint, being tortured by Semirhage, etc. I wasn't thinking that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, he's automatically going to escape. I was drawn into the narrative and yes, I felt tension.

 

And to be honest, if Alexander the Great (also Khalid Ibn al-Walid) could conquer the known world while leading and actively fighting from the front-lines, then yes, Rand can survive in the WoT world.

[Moogle]

Rob was never really a main character though, you never read anything from his POV. So he never really had plot armor.

 

Nor did Eddard. Or Catelyn.

 

GRRM kills off a fair few characters, but nowhere near as many as people make it seem. People say you should be afraid to love any characters, and yet most of them do in fact survive :P.

[Brammeri]

Some authors are very good at killing off characters. Though a number end up as melodramatic in nature, Terry Brooks is one of the very best at this. You understand that a character has to die, even if you wish it wasn't so

 

The other exceptional author in this respect was David Gemmell (RIP), who was exceptional at gathering sympathy for a character then having them die heroically. But, Gemmell's books are more heroic fiction than the vast world-building of WoT. Many stories are stand-alones or part of a world where each book's story didn't always influence the next story too much.

 

I'm sure that as soon as the grand scale of the WoT became obvious, RJ started to have more issues with killing off characters.

At the same time, characters such as Morgase Trakand have little point in the story, other than to try and say more about the political system in which Elayne lives. And others such as Birgitte are sure to die, fun character though she is, her history is mostly one filled with ultimate pain.

 

If I was choosing the major characters that required a certain amount of armour before aMoL, then the list would be: Rand, Matt and Perrin (obviously). Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Faile, Tuon, Min, Lan, Aviendha and that's about it. Still, the list is long, but about right for the massive number of pages written.

 

Having Gawyn die saving Egwene would have made a very annoying character bearable.

Moiraine should have died when they tried rescuing her - the character hasn't been missed during the story at all.

[Brammeri]

I would also add that it makes sense for one or all of Rand's little "harem" to perish during the Final Battle.

[Ashandarei]

I would also add that it makes sense for one or all of Rand's little "harem" to perish during the Final Battle.

 

There seems to be a following for the theory/possibility that Min dies in AMoL. I feel like that is very possible, even probable. The evidence however, is fairly thin as far as I've seen. All we have is that Min is the only one whose viewings we haven't seen since she can't view herself, leaving her very open to dying. Secondly, she's had viewings of both Avi and Elayne having babies(IIRC) (quad's and twins respectively) so that rules them out from dying before that. Still, I'm fairly convinced that she is very susceptible to being killed in the last book.

[Brammeri]

I would also add that it makes sense for one or all of Rand's little "harem" to perish during the Final Battle.

 

There seems to be a following for the theory/possibility that Min dies in AMoL. I feel like that is very possible, even probable. The evidence however, is fairly thin as far as I've seen. All we have is that Min is the only one whose viewings we haven't seen since she can't view herself, leaving her very open to dying. Secondly, she's had viewings of both Avi and Elayne having babies(IIRC) (quad's and twins respectively) so that rules them out from dying before that. Still, I'm fairly convinced that she is very susceptible to being killed in the last book.

 

 

Funny, but I see Min as being the most probable to survive.

She's the most logical choice for a future with Rand.

She's been around him the most, seeing his dark-side and his changes.

 

And as for Elayne? Well, some people keep mentioning that Rand isn't aware she's pregnant.

I know it's never been mentioned that he knows, but doesn't his Warder link actually let him know anything?

[capuga]

I would also add that it makes sense for one or all of Rand's little "harem" to perish during the Final Battle.

 

There seems to be a following for the theory/possibility that Min dies in AMoL. I feel like that is very possible, even probable. The evidence however, is fairly thin as far as I've seen. All we have is that Min is the only one whose viewings we haven't seen since she can't view herself, leaving her very open to dying. Secondly, she's had viewings of both Avi and Elayne having babies(IIRC) (quad's and twins respectively) so that rules them out from dying before that. Still, I'm fairly convinced that she is very susceptible to being killed in the last book.

 

 

Funny, but I see Min as being the most probable to survive.

She's the most logical choice for a future with Rand.

She's been around him the most, seeing his dark-side and his changes.

 

And as for Elayne? Well, some people keep mentioning that Rand isn't aware she's pregnant.

I know it's never been mentioned that he knows, but doesn't his Warder link actually let him know anything?

 

He hasn't been near enough to her to get much more than the fact that she is alive and maybe a dull sense of her emotions. Even if he could feel it more clearly he would only be able to tell that she had rapidly changing emotions. She doesn't get morning sickness so he wouldn't feel any physical discomfort coming through. Its unlikely that he would be able to figure out she is pregnant just from the feelings that come through the bond.

[Brammeri]

I would also add that it makes sense for one or all of Rand's little "harem" to perish during the Final Battle.

 

There seems to be a following for the theory/possibility that Min dies in AMoL. I feel like that is very possible, even probable. The evidence however, is fairly thin as far as I've seen. All we have is that Min is the only one whose viewings we haven't seen since she can't view herself, leaving her very open to dying. Secondly, she's had viewings of both Avi and Elayne having babies(IIRC) (quad's and twins respectively) so that rules them out from dying before that. Still, I'm fairly convinced that she is very susceptible to being killed in the last book.

 

 

Funny, but I see Min as being the most probable to survive.

She's the most logical choice for a future with Rand.

She's been around him the most, seeing his dark-side and his changes.

 

And as for Elayne? Well, some people keep mentioning that Rand isn't aware she's pregnant.

I know it's never been mentioned that he knows, but doesn't his Warder link actually let him know anything?

 

He hasn't been near enough to her to get much more than the fact that she is alive and maybe a dull sense of her emotions. Even if he could feel it more clearly he would only be able to tell that she had rapidly changing emotions. She doesn't get morning sickness so he wouldn't feel any physical discomfort coming through. Its unlikely that he would be able to figure out she is pregnant just from the feelings that come through the bond.

 

 

You are writing with a certainty that we cannot know.

Throughout the WoT books no AS has been with child whilst bonded.

In fact, given that few AS are "married" to their Warders we cannot be certain what the bond would display.

Unless RJ himself has stated that it would be impossible, I'll hold judgement.

 

Simply put though, it is poor writing.

Elayne herself (PoV) never questions whether Rand could be aware.

Nor does she actually address how he will react when he finds out.

Very, very unfemale reactions.

[capuga]

I would also add that it makes sense for one or all of Rand's little "harem" to perish during the Final Battle.

 

There seems to be a following for the theory/possibility that Min dies in AMoL. I feel like that is very possible, even probable. The evidence however, is fairly thin as far as I've seen. All we have is that Min is the only one whose viewings we haven't seen since she can't view herself, leaving her very open to dying. Secondly, she's had viewings of both Avi and Elayne having babies(IIRC) (quad's and twins respectively) so that rules them out from dying before that. Still, I'm fairly convinced that she is very susceptible to being killed in the last book.

 

 

Funny, but I see Min as being the most probable to survive.

She's the most logical choice for a future with Rand.

She's been around him the most, seeing his dark-side and his changes.

 

And as for Elayne? Well, some people keep mentioning that Rand isn't aware she's pregnant.

I know it's never been mentioned that he knows, but doesn't his Warder link actually let him know anything?

 

He hasn't been near enough to her to get much more than the fact that she is alive and maybe a dull sense of her emotions. Even if he could feel it more clearly he would only be able to tell that she had rapidly changing emotions. She doesn't get morning sickness so he wouldn't feel any physical discomfort coming through. Its unlikely that he would be able to figure out she is pregnant just from the feelings that come through the bond.

 

 

You are writing with a certainty that we cannot know.

Throughout the WoT books no AS has been with child whilst bonded.

In fact, given that few AS are "married" to their Warders we cannot be certain what the bond would display.

Unless RJ himself has stated that it would be impossible, I'll hold judgement.

 

Simply put though, it is poor writing.

Elayne herself (PoV) never questions whether Rand could be aware.

Nor does she actually address how he will react when he finds out.

Very, very unfemale reactions.

 

I am writing with a certainy that we have Rand's POVs and that he never remarks upon the fact that one of his girlfriends is pregnant. I would imagine something like that would illicit a comment.

 

Everything else, of course, is opinion. But one very grounded in what we see in the books regarding the bond. I think we can also deduce what he is able to feel by the many, many examples that we have seen throughout the books. Warders can feel their Aes Sedai's emotions. Warders can feel if their Aes Sedais are wounded. We have Rand's POVs that state he can't really feel much of anything from Elayne and Avi when they are far away. Knowing all of that, its not much of a stretch to suggest that Rand is unlikely to know to Elayne is pregnant just based on the faint emotions he can feel from her through the bond.

 

He could maybe put two and two together if she had morning sickness. He might put her upset stomach together with her rapidly shifting emotions and figure it out. But she doesn't get morning sickness because she is a channeler.

 

So what would Rand feel through the bond that would make him think Elayne is pregnant? Based on what we have seen on the bond throughout the series I see no reason to believe that he could feel anything other than one of his girlfriends is moody.

 

And since from his POVs, we can be almost certain that he doesn't know, I would say that all of these are pretty safe assumptions.

[Brammeri]

I would also add that it makes sense for one or all of Rand's little "harem" to perish during the Final Battle.

 

There seems to be a following for the theory/possibility that Min dies in AMoL. I feel like that is very possible, even probable. The evidence however, is fairly thin as far as I've seen. All we have is that Min is the only one whose viewings we haven't seen since she can't view herself, leaving her very open to dying. Secondly, she's had viewings of both Avi and Elayne having babies(IIRC) (quad's and twins respectively) so that rules them out from dying before that. Still, I'm fairly convinced that she is very susceptible to being killed in the last book.

 

 

Funny, but I see Min as being the most probable to survive.

She's the most logical choice for a future with Rand.

She's been around him the most, seeing his dark-side and his changes.

 

And as for Elayne? Well, some people keep mentioning that Rand isn't aware she's pregnant.

I know it's never been mentioned that he knows, but doesn't his Warder link actually let him know anything?

 

He hasn't been near enough to her to get much more than the fact that she is alive and maybe a dull sense of her emotions. Even if he could feel it more clearly he would only be able to tell that she had rapidly changing emotions. She doesn't get morning sickness so he wouldn't feel any physical discomfort coming through. Its unlikely that he would be able to figure out she is pregnant just from the feelings that come through the bond.

 

 

You are writing with a certainty that we cannot know.

Throughout the WoT books no AS has been with child whilst bonded.

In fact, given that few AS are "married" to their Warders we cannot be certain what the bond would display.

Unless RJ himself has stated that it would be impossible, I'll hold judgement.

 

Simply put though, it is poor writing.

Elayne herself (PoV) never questions whether Rand could be aware.

Nor does she actually address how he will react when he finds out.

Very, very unfemale reactions.

 

I am writing with a certainy that we have Rand's POVs and that he never remarks upon the fact that one of his girlfriends is pregnant. I would imagine something like that would illicit a comment.

 

Everything else, of course, is opinion. But one very grounded in what we see in the books regarding the bond. I think we can also deduce what he is able to feel by the many, many examples that we have seen throughout the books. Warders can feel their Aes Sedai's emotions. Warders can feel if their Aes Sedais are wounded. We have Rand's POVs that state he can't really feel much of anything from Elayne and Avi when they are far away. Knowing all of that, its not much of a stretch to suggest that Rand is unlikely to know to Elayne is pregnant just based on the faint emotions he can feel from her through the bond.

 

He could maybe put two and two together if she had morning sickness. He might put her upset stomach together with her rapidly shifting emotions and figure it out. But she doesn't get morning sickness because she is a channeler.

 

So what would Rand feel through the bond that would make him think Elayne is pregnant? Based on what we have seen on the bond throughout the series I see no reason to believe that he could feel anything other than one of his girlfriends is moody.

 

And since from his POVs, we can be almost certain that he doesn't know, I would say that all of these are pretty safe assumptions.

 

 

Okay. 2 things.

(1) BS himself said that Rand was hardly used as a POV in the ToM for a purpose.

(2) BS also stated that RJ said the WoT was our future (and our past).

 

I think a few people on here will have a lot of their certainties put to the test in the last book.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/article/65/Tweets-January-3-6-Part-2

[akira.taylor]

I would also add that it makes sense for one or all of Rand's little "harem" to perish during the Final Battle.

 

There seems to be a following for the theory/possibility that Min dies in AMoL. I feel like that is very possible, even probable. The evidence however, is fairly thin as far as I've seen. All we have is that Min is the only one whose viewings we haven't seen since she can't view herself, leaving her very open to dying. Secondly, she's had viewings of both Avi and Elayne having babies(IIRC) (quad's and twins respectively) so that rules them out from dying before that. Still, I'm fairly convinced that she is very susceptible to being killed in the last book.

 

 

Funny, but I see Min as being the most probable to survive.

She's the most logical choice for a future with Rand.

She's been around him the most, seeing his dark-side and his changes.

 

And as for Elayne? Well, some people keep mentioning that Rand isn't aware she's pregnant.

I know it's never been mentioned that he knows, but doesn't his Warder link actually let him know anything?

 

He hasn't been near enough to her to get much more than the fact that she is alive and maybe a dull sense of her emotions. Even if he could feel it more clearly he would only be able to tell that she had rapidly changing emotions. She doesn't get morning sickness so he wouldn't feel any physical discomfort coming through. Its unlikely that he would be able to figure out she is pregnant just from the feelings that come through the bond.

 

 

You are writing with a certainty that we cannot know.

Throughout the WoT books no AS has been with child whilst bonded.

In fact, given that few AS are "married" to their Warders we cannot be certain what the bond would display.

Unless RJ himself has stated that it would be impossible, I'll hold judgement.

 

Simply put though, it is poor writing.

Elayne herself (PoV) never questions whether Rand could be aware.

Nor does she actually address how he will react when he finds out.

Very, very unfemale reactions.

 

Actually, I'd question whether Rand could figure out what was happening by feeling at all - he probably doesn't really have any idea what being pregnant is like. Now, he would have encountered pregnant women before, but not that extensively (he didn't spend that much time in Emond's Field, instead growing up on a moderately isolated farm). Of course, the second time Elayne/Aviendha/Min gets pregnant, he probably (hopefully) will recognize it.

 

As for the quality of the writing, yeah, there should have been some mention of the question (although, I think Elayne decided not to tell him at one point, but she may have forgetten by now - it is, after all, well known and obvious, so of course he knows . . . except he hasn't ever tried to find out (no reason) or been in a situation where he could - wonder how he'll react when he learns?).

[capuga]

I would also add that it makes sense for one or all of Rand's little "harem" to perish during the Final Battle.

 

There seems to be a following for the theory/possibility that Min dies in AMoL. I feel like that is very possible, even probable. The evidence however, is fairly thin as far as I've seen. All we have is that Min is the only one whose viewings we haven't seen since she can't view herself, leaving her very open to dying. Secondly, she's had viewings of both Avi and Elayne having babies(IIRC) (quad's and twins respectively) so that rules them out from dying before that. Still, I'm fairly convinced that she is very susceptible to being killed in the last book.

 

 

Funny, but I see Min as being the most probable to survive.

She's the most logical choice for a future with Rand.

She's been around him the most, seeing his dark-side and his changes.

 

And as for Elayne? Well, some people keep mentioning that Rand isn't aware she's pregnant.

I know it's never been mentioned that he knows, but doesn't his Warder link actually let him know anything?

 

He hasn't been near enough to her to get much more than the fact that she is alive and maybe a dull sense of her emotions. Even if he could feel it more clearly he would only be able to tell that she had rapidly changing emotions. She doesn't get morning sickness so he wouldn't feel any physical discomfort coming through. Its unlikely that he would be able to figure out she is pregnant just from the feelings that come through the bond.

 

 

You are writing with a certainty that we cannot know.

Throughout the WoT books no AS has been with child whilst bonded.

In fact, given that few AS are "married" to their Warders we cannot be certain what the bond would display.

Unless RJ himself has stated that it would be impossible, I'll hold judgement.

 

Simply put though, it is poor writing.

Elayne herself (PoV) never questions whether Rand could be aware.

Nor does she actually address how he will react when he finds out.

Very, very unfemale reactions.

 

I am writing with a certainy that we have Rand's POVs and that he never remarks upon the fact that one of his girlfriends is pregnant. I would imagine something like that would illicit a comment.

 

Everything else, of course, is opinion. But one very grounded in what we see in the books regarding the bond. I think we can also deduce what he is able to feel by the many, many examples that we have seen throughout the books. Warders can feel their Aes Sedai's emotions. Warders can feel if their Aes Sedais are wounded. We have Rand's POVs that state he can't really feel much of anything from Elayne and Avi when they are far away. Knowing all of that, its not much of a stretch to suggest that Rand is unlikely to know to Elayne is pregnant just based on the faint emotions he can feel from her through the bond.

 

He could maybe put two and two together if she had morning sickness. He might put her upset stomach together with her rapidly shifting emotions and figure it out. But she doesn't get morning sickness because she is a channeler.

 

So what would Rand feel through the bond that would make him think Elayne is pregnant? Based on what we have seen on the bond throughout the series I see no reason to believe that he could feel anything other than one of his girlfriends is moody.

 

And since from his POVs, we can be almost certain that he doesn't know, I would say that all of these are pretty safe assumptions.

 

 

Okay. 2 things.

(1) BS himself said that Rand was hardly used as a POV in the ToM for a purpose.

(2) BS also stated that RJ said the WoT was our future (and our past).

 

I think a few people on here will have a lot of their certainties put to the test in the last book.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/article/65/Tweets-January-3-6-Part-2

 

Again, I'm not really sure what you are arguing? You stated you thought that Rand should know Elayne was pregnant because of the bond. I stated reasons that I disagree with this based on how we have seen the bond work during the book. I'm not sure how your two points are rebuttals of my arguments. Did we not get a POV from Rand to hide the fact that he knows Elayne is pregnant? I guess maybe but it seems like hiding this from Rand is such a minor point (he's basically the only person that doesn't know) for that to be the case. I think it was just more a a device for us to see how awesome he has become from other people's POVs. I don't know what our world being the past/present of Randland has to do with this discussion.

 

Its not a certainty but it is a very reasoned opinion/position based on what we know about the bond from reading the books. That is what we do here while we wait impatiently for the next book - we form opinions and use what we see in the text as evidence to support those opinions. So again, what is it that you have seen about how the bond works that makes you believe that Rand should know that Elayne is pregnant? Have any of my arguments seemed unreasonable/unrealistic based on the evidence we have seen in the text up to this point?

[jgarnett83]

egwene will die in the next book!mat walks the halls of mourning when he picks his flute up!u watch/read

[animals]

Some deaths that I feel would have helped the books achieve more tension without changing the story too much:

 

1. Thom in tEotW. Really, the Myrddral can't kill an old man? And we're supposed to be scared of them? It also would have hightened the sense of despair and hopelessness that is occasionally found in books 1-3.

2. Some Forasken including: Lanfear, Aginor, and Balthamal. I'm sick of these dang Forsaken dying and coming back. First of all, Aginor and Balthamal shouldn't have died in the first place. Balthamal gets killed by the Green Man (he can channel and gets killed by a giant plant?) and Aginor OD's on the OP while fighting Rand. Really? These are the guys we're supposed to be scared of?

3. Moiraine. Now Moiraine is one of my favorite characters, but I feel that she would be better left dead, perhaps actually killed by Lanfear in tFoH. For me, her "death" was a pretty moving and emotional scene- kind of a turning point for the series. Moiraine reappering dulls that effect.

4. Morgase. I feel Morgase is one of those characters who is just kept around for no reason while her death would really bring some realism into the story. I mean, what does she even do? Hangs around Perrin for a few books and then is revealed as who she really is, both of which could have been done without.

 

I'm not saying that people essential to the plot (Rand) should be killed, but I have to admit that after seeing the heroes escape impossible situation again and again kind of takes out the suspense.

[Entreri]

Obviously by definition plot armor is an issue in any work of fiction.

 

No big deal.

[Ashandarei]

Obviously by definition plot armor is an issue in any work of fiction.

 

No big deal.

 

What I mean by my question is not only "is the plot armor in WoT a problem" but also "is it there." Now I obviously answer Yes to both those questions but quite a few disagree. Hence the poll.

[Annia]

I would also add that it makes sense for one or all of Rand's little "harem" to perish during the Final Battle.

 

There seems to be a following for the theory/possibility that Min dies in AMoL. I feel like that is very possible, even probable. The evidence however, is fairly thin as far as I've seen. All we have is that Min is the only one whose viewings we haven't seen since she can't view herself, leaving her very open to dying. Secondly, she's had viewings of both Avi and Elayne having babies(IIRC) (quad's and twins respectively) so that rules them out from dying before that. Still, I'm fairly convinced that she is very susceptible to being killed in the last book.

 

 

Funny, but I see Min as being the most probable to survive.

She's the most logical choice for a future with Rand.

She's been around him the most, seeing his dark-side and his changes.

 

And as for Elayne? Well, some people keep mentioning that Rand isn't aware she's pregnant.

I know it's never been mentioned that he knows, but doesn't his Warder link actually let him know anything?

 

He hasn't been near enough to her to get much more than the fact that she is alive and maybe a dull sense of her emotions. Even if he could feel it more clearly he would only be able to tell that she had rapidly changing emotions. She doesn't get morning sickness so he wouldn't feel any physical discomfort coming through. Its unlikely that he would be able to figure out she is pregnant just from the feelings that come through the bond.

 

 

You are writing with a certainty that we cannot know.

Throughout the WoT books no AS has been with child whilst bonded.

In fact, given that few AS are "married" to their Warders we cannot be certain what the bond would display.

Unless RJ himself has stated that it would be impossible, I'll hold judgement.

 

Simply put though, it is poor writing.

Elayne herself (PoV) never questions whether Rand could be aware.

Nor does she actually address how he will react when he finds out.

Very, very unfemale reactions.

 

I am writing with a certainy that we have Rand's POVs and that he never remarks upon the fact that one of his girlfriends is pregnant. I would imagine something like that would illicit a comment.

 

Everything else, of course, is opinion. But one very grounded in what we see in the books regarding the bond. I think we can also deduce what he is able to feel by the many, many examples that we have seen throughout the books. Warders can feel their Aes Sedai's emotions. Warders can feel if their Aes Sedais are wounded. We have Rand's POVs that state he can't really feel much of anything from Elayne and Avi when they are far away. Knowing all of that, its not much of a stretch to suggest that Rand is unlikely to know to Elayne is pregnant just based on the faint emotions he can feel from her through the bond.

 

He could maybe put two and two together if she had morning sickness. He might put her upset stomach together with her rapidly shifting emotions and figure it out. But she doesn't get morning sickness because she is a channeler.

 

So what would Rand feel through the bond that would make him think Elayne is pregnant? Based on what we have seen on the bond throughout the series I see no reason to believe that he could feel anything other than one of his girlfriends is moody.

 

And since from his POVs, we can be almost certain that he doesn't know, I would say that all of these are pretty safe assumptions.

 

 

Okay. 2 things.

(1) BS himself said that Rand was hardly used as a POV in the ToM for a purpose.

(2) BS also stated that RJ said the WoT was our future (and our past).

 

I think a few people on here will have a lot of their certainties put to the test in the last book.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/article/65/Tweets-January-3-6-Part-2

 

Again, I'm not really sure what you are arguing? You stated you thought that Rand should know Elayne was pregnant because of the bond. I stated reasons that I disagree with this based on how we have seen the bond work during the book. I'm not sure how your two points are rebuttals of my arguments. Did we not get a POV from Rand to hide the fact that he knows Elayne is pregnant? I guess maybe but it seems like hiding this from Rand is such a minor point (he's basically the only person that doesn't know) for that to be the case. I think it was just more a a device for us to see how awesome he has become from other people's POVs. I don't know what our world being the past/present of Randland has to do with this discussion.

 

Its not a certainty but it is a very reasoned opinion/position based on what we know about the bond from reading the books. That is what we do here while we wait impatiently for the next book - we form opinions and use what we see in the text as evidence to support those opinions. So again, what is it that you have seen about how the bond works that makes you believe that Rand should know that Elayne is pregnant? Have any of my arguments seemed unreasonable/unrealistic based on the evidence we have seen in the text up to this point?

 

First,it has been stated that the warder bond is not very useful for feeling anything other than fysical injuries and emotions. Warder would not even know that his Aes Sedai is a dark friend, only feel that there is something wrong with her. Rand himself has stated that he has been able to feel next to nothing from her, due to distance, as has already been pointed out. Second, Rand was not bonded to Elayne very long before is got pregnant, so he might not be able tell the difference in her emotions that well even if he had felt them. He knows that she is going through a trying time and would probably wonder why she was feeling so conflicted, but he wouldn't be able to say 100 % sure that she hasn't always had volatily emotions under her calm exterior. Lets also remember that a good number of women don't even realize that they are pregnant for some time, if they don't have morning sickness to make them suspect. Rand would surely be at least 50 times more clueless. Rand himself felt a little bit cranky when dealing with various groups of nobles, so I'm not sure pregnancy would even be within his top 50 guesses of reasons for Elayne's moods if he was aware of them.

[killdawabbit]

Here's the thing. In the majority of stories, main characters almost have to have "plot armor", at least up to the end of the book(s). Otherwise there is no story to tell. ...

 

Since the last book is upcoming though, the story has reached terminal velocity and the "plot armor" for the majority of the "main" characters should thin out considerably. This is where it begins to become "ok" to eliminate some "main" characters due to the nearness of (or more likely during)the climax.

 

I think that mindset is similar to what RJ himself held. And that's problematic.

 

First, assertions aside, it simply isn't the case that, in order for there to be a good story to tell, the main protagonists have to survive time and again against improbably outlandish odds. That's an intellectually lazy position to take; it implies that, because WoT didn't do better, no story can. What if Perrin had been killed? Or Nynaeve? Do you really think the Dark One's victory would have been guaranteed? More to the point, do you really think the Wheel could not have fudged the Pattern a little bit so that the Dark One's victory would not have been guaranteed? Would there truly have been no story to tell if Moiraine had been dead for good, and Perrin, and Nyn? On the contrary, because those characters are so crucial to the storyline, their deaths would have opened up a whole new world of dramatic possibilities for the story, without necessarily spoiling the master plot.

I think you are missing the point here. Again, without the main characters there is no stary to tell in the first place. Or at least it becomes a radically different one. And it's because the story is about those characters in the first place. There is nothing "intelectually lazy" about that. I think you are confused between "major" and "main" characters.

 

But there's a subtler and even more important point here, which somebody mentioned upthread. The fact that the main good guys have all lived so far is troublesome because it is unrealistic, not because the thing itself (main characters living) is bad. If RJ had really, truly wanted or needed all of them to stay alive, he could have done it a lot better than the way he actually did do it. There were plenty of opportunities to improve the story, to improve the realism of the main characters' survival, and yet still let them all survive to this point. But it would have to have been a different story; none of these huge gambits relying on massive strokes of luck to save the day. Mat died in TFoH; his resurrection was a deus ex machina. If RJ had wanted Mat to live, RJ shouldn't have constructed that confrontation in the first place. See where I'm going with this?

Yes, I see that you are going in an irrelevant direction with this if you want to criticize the story elements themselves. This is the story tha RJ wanted to write. These are the events he wanted to happen. If you don't like the work you are entitled to your opinion. That's what you are saying here. That there are parts of the story that you are not satisfied with. That really has little to do with the topic at hand.

 

Lastly, it's not okay to force all the main protags to implausibly survive till the end of the story, only to start throwing them out with the garbage in a mass kill-off at the endgame. If such a thing were done in a story under the rationale you cite, it would be completely unliterary. I'm actually hoping we don't get a bloodbath among the top-level good guys in AMoL, because it would be so unrealistic compared to the WoT up to this point. It would make AMoL feel disjointed from the rest of the series. For better or worse, we've been stuck with invincible protagonists, and that's what WoT is. Can't change it now without making things even worse. One of the elements of good storytelling is predictability. No, not that kind of predictability, where we're all taking bets on which Forsaken is going to be iced by whom, and how the Bore will be resealed. Rather, the kind of predictability that shows thematic consistency throughout the series. Think of it as the kind of predictability that doesn't tell you what the future holds, but, rather, the kind of predictability which causes you, when the future does arrive, to say, "Oh, that makes sense. It fits appropriately. It follows from what we learned earlier." With all of the main protagonists having survived this far, we've been set up for them to largely survive the finale. If they don't--if there turns out to be a Last Battle Blood Bath Bonanza--it won't be consistent with the themes painted so far.

Most of this is nonsensical hyperbole. Noone advocated "throwing them out with the garbage" or a "mass kill-off". However, being as it is the end of their parts in the story, it would be the logical time to kill off any "main" characters (being as it is the end of a story about them and all)that are intended to die. I'm not sure what you find inconsistant at all about that.

[Vermillion]

Honestly, it's the Ta'veren nature of the main characters that makes sure the rest tend to survive or rise to positions of needed importance. In what 2-3 years time he has his best friends/family become leaders and generals all over the place.

 

If someone destined your football team to make it to the Super Bowl you would assume most of the major players won't get hurt and the supporting cast steps up fitting a niche perfect.

[htarcan]

this is something I dont like in books or movies, but in WoT it makes sense. there is the pattern, always trying to set things right. thats why they cannot die

[Elan Tedronai]

this is something I dont like in books or movies, but in WoT it makes sense. there is the pattern, always trying to set things right. thats why they cannot die

 

For pattern read Author's sole perogative. RJ does not like to kill off his characters except the lowly ones. It's not an opinion. It's a fact.

 

And judging by the way things stand, it looks like none of the emond's fielders will meet their end either at the last battle.

 

So in short we have a set list of unkillable characters.

[b3arz3rg3r]

What bugs me a bit is that pretty much everybody has some sort of happy ending already promised to him or her. Between all those prophecies, dreams, viewings and ter'angreal experiences there's hardly any likable character left at all who might die. I can understand a certain number of unkillable characters. The Emondsfielders, atleast one of Rand's girls and one for Mat and Perrin and those few who have already sacrificed enough like Morgaise and Moiraine, but aside from those everyone should be fair game. Lan however is as big a foil as Rand is and even the triple G- Gawyn, Galad, Gareth- is pretty much guaranteed to survive. The only one who's close to one of the main charas and who doesn't have explicit plot protection is Min I think. Instead we'll probably get a lieutenant killing spree where everyone's second in command dies and then there are those whose death has been certain for books like Cadsuane. Though who knows she might end up burning herself out and becoming Tam's wife.

[nolirion]

It's why RJ is inferior to Tolkien. At least Tolkien killed off main characters. The Silmarillion is as a result a fairly interesting read once you can force yourself past the first 50-70 boring pages.

As much as I loved reading Tolkien I didn't have a strong affection for the character , I liked them , really I did but not nearly as I like Wot one's

I Remember at then end of TGS when Rand was forced to hurt Min , the intensity of the scene give me goose bump even now , I was all "No-no-no-no that can't happen" like a little girl , the time begin freezing as you read line by line and you start to see the pattern of the scene and you just don't want it to happen .

For that matter don't forget that the book is about the freaking Ragnarök of the WoT, why would you want Odin, Thor or Fryer to die before the real trouble start ? I agree in most book that wouldn't have worked but to me I quiet enjoy when one of the character return . Because those character feel so much like a part of your life that deep down even Egwene-hater don't want her to die at the hand of a Fade.

 

Myself I don't like it when Main character I love , die or get in deep (torture of loved one etcetera) I stopped reading Robin Hobb for that matter , so I would be very very sad when that happen in Wot (like if someone cares)

[Moogle]

Can you imagine how much shorter the series would be if Perrin and Faile had died to the Shaido isntead of Faile being captured? RJ might have even finished the series! (Crossroads, I'm looking at you wasting an entire book).