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DRAGONMOUNT

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Character Immortality


Ashandarei

  

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  1. 1. Is plot armor a problem in WoT?



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Can you imagine how much shorter the series would be if Perrin and Faile had died to the Shaido isntead of Faile being captured? RJ might have even finished the series! (Crossroads, I'm looking at you wasting an entire book).

I can indeed imagine it. I can imagine it being the same number of books, taking just as long to write, with Rj still dying before the series was finished and CoT still not advancing the plot that much.
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I understand alot of points made in this discussion, but I think, we as readers, get caught up in the details of the story and miss the overall interweaving of the fictional lives lived and how they connect to us in the real world. The nature of the inperfect characters and how they grow or dont grow, as people, for that matter, is more important than if they are dying off or not.

 

NOTE*** (Thoughts a little jumbled but I hope some get my point :wacko: )

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i do not care for writers who kill off characters they've gotten me attached to.

 

Well look at it this way, the writer wouldnt be doing his job if he didnt attach you to characters, thats part of it and if they die in the story thats part of it too.

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the writer works for himself, so he's doing his job no matter what he does to the characters.

 

the writers who attach me to characters so they can manipulate my sadness by killing them off don't get me to buy any more of their books.

 

as for their dying in the story, the stories i read are almost always fiction, so the story can easily avoid killing its heroes. it's easy-peasy. and it lets the writer write sequels instead of prequels, which i always prefer.

 

i know there are people who like stories that make them cry. but i'm not usually one of those people. i could watch the news for that.

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I think that the series would have been better if someone besides Moraine had died. I feel like the attachment we feel towards the main characters would only make a major death all the more devastating. Furthermore, I think that anyone who dies in AMoL will be overshadowed by Rand's death.

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the writer works for himself, so he's doing his job no matter what he does to the characters.

 

the writers who attach me to characters so they can manipulate my sadness by killing them off don't get me to buy any more of their books.

 

as for their dying in the story, the stories i read are almost always fiction, so the story can easily avoid killing its heroes. it's easy-peasy. and it lets the writer write sequels instead of prequels, which i always prefer.

 

i know there are people who like stories that make them cry. but i'm not usually one of those people. i could watch the news for that.

 

If you don't read books where characters you're attached to die, why are you reading WoT? Aren't you attached to Rand? He's going to die- prophecy is quite clear on that. Weren't you the least bit attached to Ingtar when he sacrificed his life for redemption? Or to Verin when she admits she spent the majority of her life infiltrating the Black Ajah and then gave her very life to unveil them? You honestly felt no attachment to Mangin, the Aielman who defended Rand's honor by fighting and killing a man pretending to be the Car'a'carn- a good and honest man who voluntarily walked to his own hanging because of the integrity in him? I could go on. I think you're looking for tales like Red Riding Hood and Cinderella if you want no death of characters you're attached to in stories.

 

All the deaths I mentioned above were precisely to "manipulate your sadness" because that's what a masterful storyteller does: manipulates his audience's emotions by bringing a story to life, whether those emotions are joy, anger, revulsion, satisfaction, or sadness. Avoiding death in books is your choice, that's fine, I just wanted to point out that there's plenty of death in the WoT, a series I assume you enjoy reading, and I'm sure there is death in other books or movies you enjoy as well. My point is that death doesn't make a story any lesser for having it, it enriches the experience by providing you emotions such as sadness or anger to contrast with your joy and happiness. Even if you think that sadness isn't an emotion worth feeling(a matter of preference, I think it is worth it), having sadness and grief in a story will allow you to savor the joy even more!

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I realized a long time ago that the characters weren't going to die. The fact that characters like Hurin, Morgase, and Thom to name a few haven't died at some point is just a bit unrealistic. No knock against Jordan or the WOT, I've been reading the series since 96, but the fact that most if not all of the characters will probably live did kill a lot of suspense. We all knew that Mat, Thom, and Moraine were going to make it out of the tower. I'm not a huge advocate of death, but even characters like Leane and Domone are still alive. I wouldn't be surprised if Valan Luca pops up again and somehow survives The Last Battle by some sort of blind luck. I do enjoy seeing how the characters get out of their "near death" situations and I've invested way too many years not to finish the books. A little more suspense wouldn't have hurt though.

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the writer works for himself, so he's doing his job no matter what he does to the characters.

 

the writers who attach me to characters so they can manipulate my sadness by killing them off don't get me to buy any more of their books.

 

as for their dying in the story, the stories i read are almost always fiction, so the story can easily avoid killing its heroes. it's easy-peasy. and it lets the writer write sequels instead of prequels, which i always prefer.

 

i know there are people who like stories that make them cry. but i'm not usually one of those people. i could watch the news for that.

If you don't read books where characters you're attached to die, why are you reading WoT? Aren't you attached to Rand? He's going to die- prophecy is quite clear on that.

It's also pretty clear he will live. After all, to live he must die.
You honestly felt no attachment to Mangin, the Aielman who defended Rand's honor by fighting and killing a man pretending to be the Car'a'carn- a good and honest man who voluntarily walked to his own hanging because of the integrity in him? I could go on.
I'm sure you could, but you're really reaching if you're having to bring out minor characters like Mangin - it doesn't speak to there being a huge amount of death of characters people are attached to. And personally, I can't say I felt any real attachment to him. Now Pevin, there's a guy you can really get behind.
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If you don't read books where characters you're attached to die, why are you reading WoT? Aren't you attached to Rand? He's going to die- prophecy is quite clear on that.

It's also pretty clear he will live. After all, to live he must die.1
You honestly felt no attachment to Mangin, the Aielman who defended Rand's honor by fighting and killing a man pretending to be the Car'a'carn- a good and honest man who voluntarily walked to his own hanging because of the integrity in him? I could go on.
I'm sure you could, but you're really reaching if you're having to bring out minor characters like Mangin - it doesn't speak to there being a huge amount of death of characters people are attached to. And personally, I can't say I felt any real attachment to him. Now Pevin, there's a guy you can really get behind.2

 

1 Indeed.

 

2 I think it's a matter of preference with the more minor characters like Mangin/Pevin. In my case, I definitely felt Mangin's death as more painful than Pevin's, not that the latter was negligible. Just more that I identified with Mangin more, I guess. And while he was a minor character, I still rank his death up there with the most meaningful ones like Ingtar and Verin, again a matter of preference. My point being that I wasn't trying to exaggerate in my previous statement, just stating something that pulled at my heartstrings, even if it doesn't do so for everybody.

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what Mr Ares said.

 

re the question why do i read these books - "why" questions aren't really questions, they're challenges. i do not accept your challenge to defend my personal tastes and choices.

 

besides, it's absolutely pointless to try to convince someone that they don't or shouldn't like what they like. so we'll disagree here, and we'll each read what we like, and sometimes that will be the same thing, and you may think badly of the main characters living and i surely won't. we're different people and there's no why about it. i answered the question asked by your OP. i didn't mean to start bickering about it, sorry.

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this is something I dont like in books or movies, but in WoT it makes sense. there is the pattern, always trying to set things right. thats why they cannot die

 

For pattern read Author's sole perogative. RJ does not like to kill off his characters except the lowly ones. It's not an opinion. It's a fact.

 

And judging by the way things stand, it looks like none of the emond's fielders will meet their end either at the last battle.

 

So in short we have a set list of unkillable characters.

 

I don't understand what "perogative" means. would you explain the point instead? I don't think I'm gonna read it now (whatever it is)

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