Taim vs. Logain

[GregDietzFla]

I have seen a lot of people saying that they think Logain is going to evict Taim from the black tower, but i dont see how this can possibly happen. Taim holds a superior advantage at the Black Tower, he and his can travel (I assume), and they also have manned the walls. Everyone then points out that Logain will have the help of the Aes Sedai, but i think Taim has the Black Ajah(where else would they have gone?), so circles aren't an advantage, and they are totally outnumbered IIRC, in both male and female channellers. I also think that Taim is Morridin's tool, so you can throw in angreals and what not, but even if you don't, Logain still loses.

[GregDietzFla]

I also think that Logain is a darkfriend!! And i only believe this for one reason, I believe it is KOD, the Trolloc Battle at the Lords Manor, afterwards when talking to Rand, he says something along the lines of, I know you are stronger than I am, I saw how much bigger your 'deathgates' were then mine. Then it says that he said deathgates with disgust. Now why would someone who serves the light be disgusted by something that only works against shadow-spawn?

[Dashwood]

And what of Min's reading? Logian is destined for greatness, its been stressed many times in the books.

 

Ol' Gainy is going to kick taims ass left right and centre!

[Terez]

At the end of KOD, Taim only had about 100 men. He started turning people soon after that, but he can't have increased his numbers by much. Let's say he has 300 max men. Add his 100 or so Black Ajah to that, and maybe he managed to turn all 50 or so women to his side. He's still ginormously outnumbered.

 

Androl can weave a gateway to get help. It's only a matter of time. He probably needs to link with Pevara to do it, maybe more, but it seems to me like it's the reverse of the unweaving business that the Aiel do. Ishamael thought that was impossible. As we saw with Elayne, the flows are hard to hold on to - it's unnatural-seeming to her. That's what happened to Androl - his weave came together, and he tried to hold it together, but then the flows slid from his grip.

 

So, say Androl gets help before they manage to turn the whole population inside. That would probably take quite a while, so it's probably safe to assume they won't even get close. Taim is toast; he has 20-30% of the Asha'man/Aes Sedai numbers at best.

 

I'm betting Androl will only manage to make a gateway large enough to send a note through or something like that. A paper airplane.

[yoniy0]

Also - with Callandor - Logain or Rand (or Narishma?) wouldn't need to play fair. One could kill every soul on the BT's grounds in a second. Of course, that will never happen, as we know Pevara still has some awesomeness to perform.

[Ataxia]

Yeah but will Rand risk 2 of his most loyal men (Jahar/Damer) by sending them to the BT? Even if he would risk them, theres no way he would risk sending Callandor as well. He knows its needed and wont risk it falling into Taim's hands.

 

The real problem is getting help. Can a link be enough? Dont really know, but if Egwene sends all the AS to the fields who is going to help? Novices? All the AS at the fields, all the Accepted/Novices fighting at the BT...

 

Seanchan show up, Laras defends the whole tower by herself.

[Annia]

The real problem is getting help. Can a link be enough? Dont really know, but if Egwene sends all the AS to the fields who is going to help? Novices? All the AS at the fields, all the Accepted/Novices fighting at the BT...

 

Seanchan show up, Laras defends the whole tower by herself.

 

That Laras part would be a classic that would sure make a good laugh. Somehow I doubt that Egwene is going to be involved in the BT clean up.

[Sharaman]

Androl can weave a gateway to get help. It's only a matter of time. He probably needs to link with Pevara to do it, maybe more, but it seems to me like it's the reverse of the unweaving business that the Aiel do. Ishamael thought that was impossible. As we saw with Elayne, the flows are hard to hold on to - it's unnatural-seeming to her. That's what happened to Androl - his weave came together, and he tried to hold it together, but then the flows slid from his grip.

 

So, say Androl gets help before they manage to turn the whole population inside. That would probably take quite a while, so it's probably safe to assume they won't even get close. Taim is toast; he has 20-30% of the Asha'man/Aes Sedai numbers at best.

 

I'm betting Androl will only manage to make a gateway large enough to send a note through or something like that. A paper airplane.

 

More than external help, I think the kernel lies in the above split of forces in the BT itself. Taim has a small focussed minority of DF supporters. The majority are not pulling together. If Androl-Pevara put together a "resistance" and pull the "neutrals" to their side, it won't even need too much external help to sort the emergency aspects of the situation out (open the BT in normal space, prevent lightfriend channelers being turned, etc.

Help would be required to negate 13x13 and remove the Dspike of course but it may not actually be required to KO Taim's forces.

Everyone in this thread is assuming that Logain's glory pertains to bashing Taim; it may not. (He might bash Taim but that might not be why Min viewed glory in his future)

Rand obviously suspects the use of a DSpike and he would presumably know what to do to find and negate it. IF he talks to Perrin (a big If) or Nynaeve, his suspicions will be confirmed.

[Ikran]

Perhaps (and this is very very unlikely) after finding out about the DSpike, Rand can get both Perrin and Egwene to remove it via TAR (but again, this is a long stretch)..

 

After that well, sparks will fly at the BT I guess? Although personally I think its less of Logain and the good guys evicting Taim+ Dreadlords out from the BT.. more like 'barely escaping with their lives' kind of thing..

[Elan Tedronai]

The black tower will be rent in fire and blood So we are going to a get loads of action probably at the start of the book. I think there is a chance that taim will meet his end not in the BT but somewhere towards the end of the book. Logain's glory in my opinion is not him in taking down taim but him becoming the leader of all male chanellers after the last battle.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Logain seems to be a bit of an opportunistic backstabber to me. His constant aggravation against Rand and his outright challenging of his knowledge/power at various times, such as during the manor, makes me wonder where he will stand. Min considers him to fulfill some form of glory. Perhaps his moment in the sun will be walking over to the shadow. Every age has it's traitors.

[herid]

At the end of KOD, Taim only had about 100 men. He started turning people soon after that, but he can't have increased his numbers by much. Let's say he has 300 max men. Add his 100 or so Black Ajah to that, and maybe he managed to turn all 50 or so women to his side. He's still ginormously outnumbered.

 

Androl can weave a gateway to get help. It's only a matter of time. He probably needs to link with Pevara to do it,

 

that was my immediate reaction upon reading that scene too. and I definitely think he'll need to link with some women (not sure if Pevara alone will be enough). The comment he makes to her about greatest deeds in AoL done by men and women working together is very suggestive.

[Callern]

I saw how much bigger your 'deathgates' were then mine. Then it says that he said deathgates with disgust. Now why would someone who serves the light be disgusted by something that only works against shadow-spawn?

 

I wonder if there has been any mentioning of Darkfriends actually liking trollocs and myrddraal? I was under the impression that highranked darkfriends usually looked upon shadowspawn as tools.

I'd bet that Logain answered with disgust since he got yet another remainder of how strong Rand is compared with him.

 

Help would be required to negate 13x13 and remove the Dspike of course but it may not actually be required to KO Taim's forces.

 

A pretty lame question but:

This is another DS then the one Perrin brought right? It seems obvious, but my head is all fuzzy with the timelines and all.

[Ashandarei]

I saw how much bigger your 'deathgates' were then mine. Then it says that he said deathgates with disgust. Now why would someone who serves the light be disgusted by something that only works against shadow-spawn?

 

I wonder if there has been any mentioning of Darkfriends actually liking trollocs and myrddraal? I was under the impression that highranked darkfriends usually looked upon shadowspawn as tools.

I'd bet that Logain answered with disgust since he got yet another remainder of how strong Rand is compared with him.

 

Help would be required to negate 13x13 and remove the Dspike of course but it may not actually be required to KO Taim's forces.

 

A pretty lame question but:

This is another DS then the one Perrin brought right? It seems obvious, but my head is all fuzzy with the timelines and all.

 

Yeah, this is the second dreamspike that Moridin mentions when handing Graendal the first.

 

Towers of Midnight, Ch. 5: Writings, p.119

Moridin: "You are close to losing favor, Graendal," he said, turning and holding a long, spikelike piece of metal, silvery and topped with a large metal head set with golden inlay. "I have found only two of these. The other is being put to good use. You may use this one."

[yoniy0]

I saw how much bigger your 'deathgates' were then mine. Then it says that he said deathgates with disgust. Now why would someone who serves the light be disgusted by something that only works against shadow-spawn?

 

I wonder if there has been any mentioning of Darkfriends actually liking trollocs and myrddraal? I was under the impression that highranked darkfriends usually looked upon shadowspawn as tools.

I'd bet that Logain answered with disgust since he got yet another remainder of how strong Rand is compared with him.

He was disgusted because he thought Rand was keeping new weaves for himself the same way Taim was, or at least that's what it looked like to me.

[neugebms]

I have always felt that Logain's glory probably pertains to some type of position of power or authority after Rand is gone. Maybe as the head of the Black Tower. As to the the actual confrontation, I can see it going down either way, either Logain woopin some major arse, or barely escaping with his clock fringed. I'm actually more concerned with where the heck he is right now. Through reading ToM it's almost seemed as if he was simply forgotten about, or there was no good spot for a Logain PoV.

 

But I digress. The big thing I wanted to throw out there was how it might thematically go down. I want to see the fight. The battle. Dumai's Wells was probably my most favority scene...

 

BUT...

 

I would not be surprised if we see bits and pieces of the Black Tower resolution through flashbacks from the survivors...

[Callern]

 

 

Yeah, this is the second dreamspike that Moridin mentions when handing Graendal the first.

 

Towers of Midnight, Ch. 5: Writings, p.119

Moridin: "You are close to losing favor, Graendal," he said, turning and holding a long, spikelike piece of metal, silvery and topped with a large metal head set with golden inlay. "I have found only two of these. The other is being put to good use. You may use this one."

 

Cheers :)

[KefkaPalazzo]

I also think that Logain is a darkfriend!! And i only believe this for one reason, I believe it is KOD, the Trolloc Battle at the Lords Manor, afterwards when talking to Rand, he says something along the lines of, I know you are stronger than I am, I saw how much bigger your 'deathgates' were then mine. Then it says that he said deathgates with disgust. Now why would someone who serves the light be disgusted by something that only works against shadow-spawn?

 

What I got from the scene was that Logain just learned the name from Rand. I also got a "hello new boss, same as the old boss" vibe from Logain there. He even calls Rand out on hiding these "new" weaves until now. Looking at the situation from Logain's POV, everything can be explained by him being human.

 

First, the deathgate thing. If I were Logain, I'd be pretty annoyed if there were hundreds of thousands of Trollocs attacking and getting through, and Rand knew and never taught a weave that would tear through them like a hot knife through butter, and I just had to wing it.

 

Also with that scene, remember who Logain was, and who Rand was. Logain was a mid-ranking lord from Ghealdan, while at the same time, Rand was a shepherd from the middle of nowhere. There's probably some baggage there.

 

Also, Logain has been trying to convince Rand that something's rotten in the state of the BT, but Rand refuses to listen to him. Logain's just a very angry individual, with a world that seems to only exist to annoy him even more.

[GregDietzFla]

And what of Min's reading? Logian is destined for greatness, its been stressed many times in the books.

 

Ol' Gainy is going to kick taims ass left right and centre!

 

As already stated, his glory does not have to come from serving the light.

 

At the end of KOD, Taim only had about 100 men. He started turning people soon after that, but he can't have increased his numbers by much. Let's say he has 300 max men. Add his 100 or so Black Ajah to that, and maybe he managed to turn all 50 or so women to his side. He's still ginormously outnumbered.

 

Androl can weave a gateway to get help. It's only a matter of time. He probably needs to link with Pevara to do it, maybe more, but it seems to me like it's the reverse of the unweaving business that the Aiel do. Ishamael thought that was impossible. As we saw with Elayne, the flows are hard to hold on to - it's unnatural-seeming to her. That's what happened to Androl - his weave came together, and he tried to hold it together, but then the flows slid from his grip.

 

So, say Androl gets help before they manage to turn the whole population inside. That would probably take quite a while, so it's probably safe to assume they won't even get close. Taim is toast; he has 20-30% of the Asha'man/Aes Sedai numbers at best.

 

I'm betting Androl will only manage to make a gateway large enough to send a note through or something like that. A paper airplane.

 

 

Why does everyone think that it is as simple as linking to defeat a dreamspike? Men and women working together was common during the A.O.L. and the dreamspike was very effective, else morridin and Graendal wouldn't be so excited about them. Or is it just supposed to be Androl's ability to weave gateways that makes it work? In which case i still find it hard to believe... Was there really nobody who was good with gateways during the A.O.L.?

 

Also - with Callandor - Logain or Rand (or Narishma?) wouldn't need to play fair. One could kill every soul on the BT's grounds in a second. Of course, that will never happen, as we know Pevara still has some awesomeness to perform.

 

I think that a full circle of 72 led by Taim would still beat Logain or Narishma even with Callandor. Not to mention it has been mentioned many times that a woman must lead a circle while using Callandor for it to be safe, in which case, I think it would have to be Alivia to have any shot against Taim (Taim is a weapon), Nyn or Cadsuane would still be eaten for breakfast.

 

 

More than external help, I think the kernel lies in the above split of forces in the BT itself. Taim has a small focussed minority of DF supporters. The majority are not pulling together. If Androl-Pevara put together a "resistance" and pull the "neutrals" to their side, it won't even need too much external help to sort the emergency aspects of the situation out (open the BT in normal space, prevent lightfriend channelers being turned, etc.

Help would be required to negate 13x13 and remove the Dspike of course but it may not actually be required to KO Taim's forces.

Everyone in this thread is assuming that Logain's glory pertains to bashing Taim; it may not. (He might bash Taim but that might not be why Min viewed glory in his future)

Rand obviously suspects the use of a DSpike and he would presumably know what to do to find and negate it. IF he talks to Perrin (a big If) or Nynaeve, his suspicions will be confirmed.

 

ok, I will give you that if Logain's people can gather all the 'nuetrals', there chance goes up, but what about the fact that Taim's are for the most part, the strongest, that has to even the playing field with the numbers. Plus IF Taim is working for Moridin (Obviously) then he is probabally stacked with angreal (and maybe a sa'angreal or two). Once again you discount the travelling advantage. Even if Androl can make it work, Taim still has a tactical advantage in that all of his men can travel (assuming he has the key to share with them, which i think he does).

And lastly why would Rand know of a way to negate the dreamspike? LTT most likely didn't or once again Moridin and Graendal would not have been as excited. I also took Rand's suspicion of a dreamspike as another reason that he would leave it alone. Knowing it would cost too much to deal with the tower now. Maybe the tower is one of the 'other' things Rand failed at, like the truce with the Seanchan that he tells Ituralde about.

[Terez]

Why does everyone think that it is as simple as linking to defeat a dreamspike?

Because Androl's Talent with them is unprecedented, probably. Or near to it. Logain calls it 'impressive', and Taim calls it 'impossible'. Take that for what it's worth. Also, the description is similar to the unweaving (sort of in reverse); it probably follows the same principle, and again, unweaving was so unknown in the Age of Legends that Moridin freaked out when he realized he had been within range of an unweaving gateway (the one that Aviendha successfully unwove).

[Ashandarei]

Why does everyone think that it is as simple as linking to defeat a dreamspike? Men and women working together was common during the A.O.L. and the dreamspike was very effective, else morridin and Graendal wouldn't be so excited about them. Or is it just supposed to be Androl's ability to weave gateways that makes it work? In which case i still find it hard to believe... Was there really nobody who was good with gateways during the A.O.L.?

 

Because Androl's Talent with them is unprecedented, probably. Or near to it. Logain calls it 'impressive', and Taim calls it 'impossible'. Take that for what it's worth. Also, the description is similar to the unweaving (sort of in reverse); it probably follows the same principle, and again, unweaving was so unknown in the Age of Legends that Moridin freaked out when he realized he had been within range of an unweaving gateway (the one that Aviendha successfully unwove).

 

I'm with Mane of Chaos on this one, the simplest answer is usually the right one and in this case that means that removing the dreamspike from T'A'R will most probably be how this situation is resolved, no matter how good Androl may be at weaving gateways. His effort might even have been an example of how even Androl who has gateways down nearly to a Talent can't bypass the dreamspike's Traveling block.

 

As to who removes it, well it could be Rand or Perrin or both, I doubt Egwene would since she doesn't know much about DS's and she's busy with WT stuff being Amyrlin and all.

 

Edit- Although.... has anyone tried Skimming under the DS yet? I realize this is counter to my own argument above, but if I'm wrong about it, maybe Androl's mad skills at gateways combined with Skimming requiring less effort/power normally as well as Androl linking with Pevara and other Ashaman maaaaybe might be enough to bypass the DS??

 

Why do I effect my own demise...

[David Selig]

Neald tried Skimming when the Dreamspike was affecting Perrin's camp, it didn't work.

[fikkie77]

We're not sure both DS work in exactly the same way...

But I don't think skimming would work. Maybe entering TAR in the Flesh in the same way Egwene did when she wanted to go to Salidar?

[Hopefire]

I figure that they'll be unable to figure out how to get out after they retake the Black Tower, and will walk to Caemlyn. Arriving just in time!

[Ashandarei]

Neald tried Skimming when the Dreamspike was affecting Perrin's camp, it didn't work.

 

Oh yeah, had slipped my mind.

 

We're not sure both DS work in exactly the same way...

But I don't think skimming would work. Maybe entering TAR in the Flesh in the same way Egwene did when she wanted to go to Salidar?

 

Is there any evidence saying that the two DS are different? Entering TAR fully via gateway is an interesting possibility... Both Traveling and Skimming not working seem to suggest it won't work either, but who knows.