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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

"You will kneel, Lews Therin!"


Aiyen kin Leary

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I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm still uncertain as to why the Shadow was focused on turning Rand to the point of passing up chances to kill him. There's a lot of indication that losing the Dragon Reborn means losing the Last Battle, so why did Ishamael spend so long ranting at an untrained sheepherder when it appears he could have triumphed back in TEOTW had he attacked him instead? Was he arrogant to the point of complete idiocy? Perhaps, but that would make for IMO a much weaker story than the WoT could have been. Also, there has been a long-standing "don't kill Rand" order much later in the series, when the Dark One could clearly make his wishes known to the Forsaken. It seems likely then that the DO himself doesn't want to necessarily finish off his greatest opponent (or didn't; after VoG Rand's probably on the Shadow's hit list). Does that mean that there is a chance for some sort of victory even with the Dragon dead? RJ said that the Champion of the Light has gone over before without the Shadow winning, so it seems at least possible. On the other hand, the Mirror Worlds in TGH seem to make it pretty clear that Rand was crucial. Thoughts?

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I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm still uncertain as to why the Shadow was focused on turning Rand to the point of passing up chances to kill him. There's a lot of indication that losing the Dragon Reborn means losing the Last Battle, so why did Ishamael spend so long ranting at an untrained sheepherder when it appears he could have triumphed back in TEOTW had he attacked him instead? Was he arrogant to the point of complete idiocy? Perhaps, but that would make for IMO a much weaker story than the WoT could have been. Also, there has been a long-standing "don't kill Rand" order much later in the series, when the Dark One could clearly make his wishes known to the Forsaken. It seems likely then that the DO himself doesn't want to necessarily finish off his greatest opponent (or didn't; after VoG Rand's probably on the Shadow's hit list). Does that mean that there is a chance for some sort of victory even with the Dragon dead? RJ said that the Champion of the Light has gone over before without the Shadow winning, so it seems at least possible. On the other hand, the Mirror Worlds in TGH seem to make it pretty clear that Rand was crucial. Thoughts?

I've long been of the opinion that killing the Dragon loses the last Battle, but does NOT end the wheel of time and free the dark one. I think the ONLY way for reality to be destroyed would be if the Dragon does it. So, for the huge portion of the books, the focus has been to drive Rand mad and get him in a place where he would want to destroy the world (i.e. Veins of Gold). If he does that, the Dark One wins forever.

 

If he can't get the Dragon to destroy the world, the Dark One wins this round of the game. Even if Rand becomes dark or is killed and the forsaken rule, but the dragon is not willing to destroy the world, reality continues and the dark one stays imprisoned. It may be a pretty awful place to live until the dragon is reborn, but the world continues.

 

It even helps explain the Borderlanders test. If they thought he was the guy who would destroy the world, they had to kill him, even if it meant the forces of the dark winning and darkness covering the land for an age.

 

That being said, now that the chance to drive rand totally bonkers has passed, I assume that it will be a full-tilt effort to kill him now (ineffective though it may be). They have lost on their primary goal, so now they will be shooting for the secondary goal - i.e. darkness covering the land for one age.

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because it's the only way jordan can explain how an untrained shepherder is able to outmaneouver fearsome baddies from another age. The plan all along was to turn him. sheesh give me a fuckin break.

 

It also led to the death of another forsaken called sammael.

 

The simple thing to do was balefire rand al thor. gather all the seals and break them and sit back and enjoy the show.

 

If you are feeling impatient, then gather a few forsaken in a circle and rip out the bore completely and free shaitan. who needs the services of the dragon reborn?

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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Rand's the only one who can break the seals to free the Dark One.

 

If Rand's killed, the DO's still trapped.

 

If Rand's turned, the DO could stand a chance of still being freed. Whether the pattern would allow that to happen is anyone's guess, but my gut says no. So, you can't exactly kill the one person who can set you free, before they bust you out of your prison eh?

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Rand's the only one who can break the seals to free the Dark One.

 

If Rand's killed, the DO's still trapped.

 

If Rand's turned, the DO could stand a chance of still being freed. Whether the pattern would allow that to happen is anyone's guess, but my gut says no. So, you can't exactly kill the one person who can set you free, before they bust you out of your prison eh?

 

I think you are wrong when you say that Rand is the only one that can break the seals. In the early books, seals break by themselves/accidentaly. I remember the one that Nyn, etc bring towards Salidar ends up breaking along the way. And then you can't forget where (Siaun I think, maybe Moiraine) scrape parts of the cueindallar off thereby showing us that the seals can break just by dropping them on the ground.

Edited by Lynander
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This was something that bothered me and confused me for a long time. If Rand is such a threat, why pussy foot around, and just end him?

 

I've come to the conclusion that there is something special about Rand, besides his talents in the One Power, or his Taveren'ness. I was listening to a recent podcast and they talk about how the Horn of Valere isn't a ter'angreal, but an actual instrument from the age before AoL. It has taken on its own magical qualities quite unlike the magical qualities we are familiar with. I think there is more to Rand that we don't quite understand yet. He has to do something, and that something will have a 50% chance of sealing away the DO, and 50% of breaking him free forever.

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Rand's the only one who can break the seals to free the Dark One.

 

If Rand's killed, the DO's still trapped.

 

If Rand's turned, the DO could stand a chance of still being freed. Whether the pattern would allow that to happen is anyone's guess, but my gut says no. So, you can't exactly kill the one person who can set you free, before they bust you out of your prison eh?

 

I think you are wrong when you say that Rand is the only one that can break the seals. In the early books, seals break by themselves/accidentaly. I remember the one that Nyn, etc bring towards Salidar ends up breaking along the way. And then you can't forget where (Siaun I think, maybe Moiraine) scrape parts of the cueindallar off thereby showing us that the seals can break just by dropping them on the ground.

 

 

That does happen, but it's the result of what Rand's doing, fulfilling prophesies, et al. Those seals aren't breaking because they're inherently breakable all by themselves.

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The Borderlander's prophecy says outright that if Rand is unable to answer their question on the death of whatever her name was, then they need to kill him so existence can continue. Pretty much says that life goes on if the Dragon dies, even if the Shadow will be in ascendancy for a while. So killing Rand doesn't win the war, just this particular battle - in order for the Dark One to be freed, something else has to happen which seems to be the Dragon destroying the world, as the Dark One apparently can't do it himself (possible parallel to Lord Foul in the Thomas Covenant books? I can't remember those too well, though).

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It's about the confrontation between those two .

The dragon against the champion of/or the Do , the light against the darkness . Human are pretty much in between those two force beside The dragon who is the incarnation of the Champion of light .

And beside there are always darkspawn ready to kill rand and ordered two , the Do as many agent , some who are ordered to pain him other to kill him yet other to protect him.

I may be totally wrong

Edited by nolirion
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Rand's the only one who can break the seals to free the Dark One.

 

If Rand's killed, the DO's still trapped.

 

If Rand's turned, the DO could stand a chance of still being freed. Whether the pattern would allow that to happen is anyone's guess, but my gut says no. So, you can't exactly kill the one person who can set you free, before they bust you out of your prison eh?

 

I think you are wrong when you say that Rand is the only one that can break the seals. In the early books, seals break by themselves/accidentaly. I remember the one that Nyn, etc bring towards Salidar ends up breaking along the way. And then you can't forget where (Siaun I think, maybe Moiraine) scrape parts of the cueindallar off thereby showing us that the seals can break just by dropping them on the ground.

 

 

That does happen, but it's the result of what Rand's doing, fulfilling prophesies, et al. Those seals aren't breaking because they're inherently breakable all by themselves.

 

 

wrong. the seals are breaking because the method ltt iused to seal up the bore is imperfect. the dark one is continously straining against that patched up bore. the patch is directly linked to the seals.

 

 

By the way, if ishamael had the choedan kal in his hands, he could have destroyed the pattern too. so there goes another theory of the dragon needed to free the dark one

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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By the way, if ishamael had the choedan kal in his hands, he could have destroyed the pattern too. so there goes another theory of the dragon needed to free the dark one

Where do you get that information? The only person speaking of destroying the pattern in the books was Rand atop dragonmount. If it was that easy for Ishmael to do so, he could have done so at any time. The location of the male choedan kal was not a secret (it was being excavated in Cairhein). he did not need the access key, just walk up to it(e.g. rand touched it accidentally in the great hunt).

 

There is obviously something special about the Dragon. I suspect that only he can end the pattern.

 

The wolves certainly seemed much more worried about Dragonmount than about any battles to come, signifying to me that dragonmount was was the pivotal point for the Dark one to win once and for all.

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At the next opportunity for submissions on an Ask the Author Q & A, or at an event, or wherever, somebody ask Sanderson 'When a seal breaks, is it because of what Rand does by fulfilling a prophetical action that causes it to be broken?' or 'If Rand is killed before breaking all the seals, can the DO be freed by any other means, or does it have to be Rand/The Dragon Reborn who breaks those seals through his actions, thereby setting the DO free.'

 

Seriously, I always thought it was pretty obvious that the seals break & are breaking down because of what Rand does. It's not the DO straining against the seals that is causing them to break down - it's Rand doing everything the Karethon Cycle/Aiel/Seafolk/Borderland Prophesies say he will do, which breaks the seals, thereby the DO is able to touch the world in a greater capacity, because when one seal breaks there's one less bar on his prison door - allowing to stretch out and poke the world.

 

Don't you think it's just a little weird to blame the DO for broken seals when every time a seal's been broken in the series, it's directly linked to something Rand does?

 

No Rand = No Broken Seals = Still Imprisoned Dark One

 

If that is not the case, I will eat my shorts.

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the DO (or his servants) killed Rand off in many of the mirror worlds. if the DO had managed to kill Rand off in this one then it would have just been a mirror world, and the world in which Rand survived would be the important one as far as the DO's ultimate victory or defeat matters.

by the cosmology of the books, all of the other scenarios did happen in some other mirror world. rand was assassinated. he didn't proclaim himself as dragon, and died as an unknown. he destroyed the Pattern (or at least the world in which he tried to destroy the pattern). (All the "I have won again Lews Therin" worlds.)

In The Dragon Reborn Verin tells Egwene that "if he [the Dark One] is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains prisoned on all."

Egwene thinks that this is nonsensical, but it makes sense if the one world referred to is the same in both sentences. If freed or kept prisoner on one world (the 'real world' of the series) then his victories in the other worlds don't count.

Verin later tells Egwene (just before she dies) that the DO isn't playing the game that Rand thinks he is. It's not about the armies an all of that - not really. It's a spiritual battle (for lack of a better term) between Rand and the Dark One [my conjecture, she doesn't say that].

Point being that out of all the infinite possibilities that happen in all of the worlds, in the one that counts Rand very improbably survives to see the Last Battle. The DO has him killed in many of the mirror worlds, but it turns out that they're the ones that don't count.

I expect that the one world that counts as far as the DO's freedom is concerned is the one where the Dragon faces him in the Last Battle. Which, it seems, is one out of an infinite number of possible worlds. That battle could have one of 3 outcomes - DO is defeated, dragon is defeated, dragon joins the DO. I think the best outcome from the DO's perspective is for the dragon to join him. that's off the table now (unless Lanfear turns him in a last ditch effort), so it's open season on the dragon.

sorry for the rambling, hopefully that made sense. or as much sense as possible considering.

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I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm still uncertain as to why the Shadow was focused on turning Rand to the point of passing up chances to kill him. There's a lot of indication that losing the Dragon Reborn means losing the Last Battle, so why did Ishamael spend so long ranting at an untrained sheepherder when it appears he could have triumphed back in TEOTW had he attacked him instead? Was he arrogant to the point of complete idiocy? Perhaps, but that would make for IMO a much weaker story than the WoT could have been. Also, there has been a long-standing "don't kill Rand" order much later in the series, when the Dark One could clearly make his wishes known to the Forsaken. It seems likely then that the DO himself doesn't want to necessarily finish off his greatest opponent (or didn't; after VoG Rand's probably on the Shadow's hit list). Does that mean that there is a chance for some sort of victory even with the Dragon dead? RJ said that the Champion of the Light has gone over before without the Shadow winning, so it seems at least possible. On the other hand, the Mirror Worlds in TGH seem to make it pretty clear that Rand was crucial. Thoughts?

The DO and Moridin aren't trying to win this battle, they want to win the entire war! Their goal is to destroy the Wheel and kill Time itself. Somehow they need Rand alive for that and turned to the Shadow. Then and only then could they succeed in that particular goal. Killing Rand might win the Final Battle, but it won´t destroy the Wheel. It´s just not enough. Moridin is the only Forsaken to be enough of a nihilist to understand and wish for this. That´s why he´s Naeblis and not one of the others, who would prefer a dead Rand at any time.

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I really don't think there's a good explanation for why Rand has, at least for some baddies, been on the no-kill list. Maybe the author will try to explain it in the final book.

 

The related question I have is, if the Dark One has an important reason to keep Rand alive, then why did so many darkfriends and even Forsaken try to kill him? It seems very inconsistent. I can maybe understand if you're just a run-of-the-mill darkfriend. Maybe they misunderstand, or are not even privy to, the Dark One's orders. But the Forsaken? Are some of them flat-out defying the Dark One? That doesn't make much sense.

 

The whole "kill / no-kill" directive seems very arbitrary, and seems to change throughout the series merely for convenience of the plot.

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It is fantasy after all. Otherwise, Ishamael would have balefired Rand in the beginning. Problem every easily solved.

 

One reason I can think of not doing this: In order for the Wheel to be truly destroyed for good/all time, the DR has to turn...thus the Creator will never recreate Creation, since his champion decided against it.

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I almost completely agree with Fel. I think that the DO is fighting the long war, and knows that the ONLY way for him to win the long war is for Rand/LTT/Dragon to lose all faith in creation and destroy it of his own will. This is different from the Dragon dying, and being brought back as a puppet of the DO. Therefore, for the DO:

 

(1) Dragon turning is the optimal result;

(2) then many rungs lower Dragon dying and being turned is second;

(3) then slightly lower Dragon 'winning' the last battle;

(4) then perhaps many rungs lower than that the fourth possibility of Dragon completely winning the war by destroying the DO.

 

Preference/possibility (4) may not be actually possible, but I personally am in the camp that thinks it is, and that this turning of the wheel is special. Regardless, in light of those preferences for the DO, it makes sense how he has been issuing no-kill orders for Rand the whole series, and has been focused more on damaging his hope and will. Furthermore, if you countenance the possibility of (4), then the apparent wavering of the DO's positions becomes more reasonable, because (as we saw from VoG), pushing the Dragon to (1) has the risk of making (4) more likely. And exactly as Fel said, this fits in with the Borderlander's prophecy as well.

 

What does this mean for the future? I think that depends on how much information the DO has. I would guess, based on his wavering so far, that he can't be sure whether the Dragon is in (4) mode. However, with the information that he will receive from the darkfriends that Rand has outed, I suspect he will fear that the Dragon is in (4), and therefore try all out to kill him to achieve (2). This, however, does not mean that all of the Forsaken or darkfriends will be on board with that, because they clearly have their own agendas, and the DO's influence is not omnipotent. This influence is growing through the use of Shaidar Haran, but, as we see with Graendal, that influence is ex post facto; punishment, not control.

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I have a theory. The Dark One can possess True Power users, existing in the Pattern in their place. Whatever happens, the Dark One HAS to possess the Dragon to win, because otherwise his Ta'verenism and Pattern-affecting mentality will ALWAYS turn events on the Dark One. The ONLY way the Dark One can win is by existing within the Pattern in place of the Dragon, as in, in his body.

 

Killing Rand will never be enough. He will be pulled out of T'A'R after death, or he will just happen to have become connected to someone whose body he could steal. Or something else. The Dark One needs to replace Rand with himself, otherwise everything that makes Rand what he is will just sort things out. Every. Single. Time.

 

If Ishamael had killed Rand in any book something would have happened to bring him back.

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If Ishamael had killed Rand in any book something would have happened to bring him back.

 

This much is I think almost certain - even if not in the timescale of the books, if the Dragon dies or turns much as the Forsaken (excluding Moridin) did, there's still another Dragon when the Wheel turns again. The Dark One must be getting pretty bored of this by now.

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By the way, if ishamael had the choedan kal in his hands, he could have destroyed the pattern too. so there goes another theory of the dragon needed to free the dark one

Where do you get that information? The only person speaking of destroying the pattern in the books was Rand atop dragonmount. If it was that easy for Ishmael to do so, he could have done so at any time. The location of the male choedan kal was not a secret (it was being excavated in Cairhein). he did not need the access key, just walk up to it(e.g. rand touched it accidentally in the great hunt).

 

There is obviously something special about the Dragon. I suspect that only he can end the pattern.

 

The wolves certainly seemed much more worried about Dragonmount than about any battles to come, signifying to me that dragonmount was was the pivotal point for the Dark one to win once and for all.

 

sigh, ishamael could not destroy the pattern because he did not have the access key. get it. To channel that much power of the choedan kal you need that access key. if ishy tried to channel that huge statue he would be burned out. just like rand if he tried. That's the whole friggin point of that access key. To tap into that awesome power anywhere, anytime and safely without getting burned out.

 

rand is just lucky he found it that aiel place...rhudiean or something. If ishy had that access key,well destroy the pattern and game over. No need for the dragon reborn is there.

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rand is just lucky he found it that aiel place...rhudiean or something. If ishy had that access key,well destroy the pattern and game over. No need for the dragon reborn is there.

 

Unless you account for the Pattern aiming for its own continuation...? What's to say Ishmael/Moridin could have even touched the Access Keys without being struck by lightning or a falling brick? What's to say Rand isn't outside the Pattern's direct influence, causing him to be the only mortal to be able to work against its will if he so chooses? There's far too many explanations as to why anyone else destroying the Pattern would not work.

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I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm still uncertain as to why the Shadow was focused on turning Rand to the point of passing up chances to kill him. There's a lot of indication that losing the Dragon Reborn means losing the Last Battle, so why did Ishamael spend so long ranting at an untrained sheepherder when it appears he could have triumphed back in TEOTW had he attacked him instead? Was he arrogant to the point of complete idiocy? Perhaps, but that would make for IMO a much weaker story than the WoT could have been. Also, there has been a long-standing "don't kill Rand" order much later in the series, when the Dark One could clearly make his wishes known to the Forsaken. It seems likely then that the DO himself doesn't want to necessarily finish off his greatest opponent (or didn't; after VoG Rand's probably on the Shadow's hit list). Does that mean that there is a chance for some sort of victory even with the Dragon dead? RJ said that the Champion of the Light has gone over before without the Shadow winning, so it seems at least possible. On the other hand, the Mirror Worlds in TGH seem to make it pretty clear that Rand was crucial. Thoughts?

I've long been of the opinion that killing the Dragon loses the last Battle, but does NOT end the wheel of time and free the dark one. I think the ONLY way for reality to be destroyed would be if the Dragon does it. So, for the huge portion of the books, the focus has been to drive Rand mad and get him in a place where he would want to destroy the world (i.e. Veins of Gold). If he does that, the Dark One wins forever.

 

If he can't get the Dragon to destroy the world, the Dark One wins this round of the game. Even if Rand becomes dark or is killed and the forsaken rule, but the dragon is not willing to destroy the world, reality continues and the dark one stays imprisoned. It may be a pretty awful place to live until the dragon is reborn, but the world continues.

 

It even helps explain the Borderlanders test. If they thought he was the guy who would destroy the world, they had to kill him, even if it meant the forces of the dark winning and darkness covering the land for an age.

 

That being said, now that the chance to drive rand totally bonkers has passed, I assume that it will be a full-tilt effort to kill him now (ineffective though it may be). They have lost on their primary goal, so now they will be shooting for the secondary goal - i.e. darkness covering the land for one age.

 

THIS. Remember the poorly-veiled metaphor in POD with Moridin's Sha'rah game? There are two ways to win: complete annihilation of the enemy (tried in TDR, didn't end too well) or movement of the Fisher to the goal line if you control it/to one of your tiles on the outside rim if you don't.

 

Rand plays the part of the Fisher. For about 3 or 4 books, the Fisher was in the DO's control, and got within a single move of victory. At VoG, he changed hands again, going back to the light.

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rand is just lucky he found it that aiel place...rhudiean or something. If ishy had that access key,well destroy the pattern and game over. No need for the dragon reborn is there.

 

Unless you account for the Pattern aiming for its own continuation...? What's to say Ishmael/Moridin could have even touched the Access Keys without being struck by lightning or a falling brick? What's to say Rand isn't outside the Pattern's direct influence, causing him to be the only mortal to be able to work against its will if he so chooses? There's far too many explanations as to why anyone else destroying the Pattern would not work.

 

There is no luck when ta'verern are involved. It was prophesied for Rand to come to Rhuidean. Rhuidean is the last place on Earth that Access Keys can be found. Coincidence/Luck....Yeah, Right....Preordained is the proper term. The Access Keys are secured in a city that only one group of people know exist, the city is protected by wards similar to those that a dreamspike provides. Ishy could not have found the Access Keys, and the Pattern made certain of it by hiding them in a city Ishy could not find. Ishy stood at Hawkwing's elbow and Hawkwing attacked the Aiel, but was turned back by them. Had Hawkwing won, possibly Ishy could have found Rhuidean, but the Pattern made sure that the Aiel held his armies back.

 

As far as why there is a major desire to turn Rand as opposed to killing him, personally I agree with Fel when he said:

 

I've long been of the opinion that killing the Dragon loses the last Battle, but does NOT end the wheel of time and free the dark one. I think the ONLY way for reality to be destroyed would be if the Dragon does it. So, for the huge portion of the books, the focus has been to drive Rand mad and get him in a place where he would want to destroy the world (i.e. Veins of Gold). If he does that, the Dark One wins forever.

 

If he can't get the Dragon to destroy the world, the Dark One wins this round of the game. Even if Rand becomes dark or is killed and the forsaken rule, but the dragon is not willing to destroy the world, reality continues and the dark one stays imprisoned. It may be a pretty awful place to live until the dragon is reborn, but the world continues.

 

It even helps explain the Borderlanders test. If they thought he was the guy who would destroy the world, they had to kill him, even if it meant the forces of the dark winning and darkness covering the land for an age.

 

That being said, now that the chance to drive rand totally bonkers has passed, I assume that it will be a full-tilt effort to kill him now (ineffective though it may be). They have lost on their primary goal, so now they will be shooting for the secondary goal - i.e. darkness covering the land for one age.

 

But another thought is that while we (some of us) have been studying the works of the DO for 20 years, Verin had been studying them for over 70 years and still was not sure of the DO's motivations. Why should we be expected to understand what the DO chooses to have his minions do?

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There is no luck when ta'verern are involved. It was prophesied for Rand to come to Rhuidean. Rhuidean is the last place on Earth that Access Keys can be found. Coincidence/Luck....Yeah, Right....Preordained is the proper term. The Access Keys are secured in a city that only one group of people know exist, the city is protected by wards similar to those that a dreamspike provides. Ishy could not have found the Access Keys, and the Pattern made certain of it by hiding them in a city Ishy could not find. Ishy stood at Hawkwing's elbow and Hawkwing attacked the Aiel, but was turned back by them. Had Hawkwing won, possibly Ishy could have found Rhuidean, but the Pattern made sure that the Aiel held his armies back.

 

But another thought is that while we (some of us) have been studying the works of the DO for 20 years, Verin had been studying them for over 70 years and still was not sure of the DO's motivations. Why should we be expected to understand what the DO chooses to have his minions do?

 

I never used the word luck? You're making it sound like you disagree with my post but the message of your post is the exact same as mine. Both posts boil down to "The Pattern did not want Ishmael to have the Access Keys, so he didn't get them"

 

*Ohh, that makes sense

Edited by Hadilmir
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There is no luck when ta'verern are involved. It was prophesied for Rand to come to Rhuidean. Rhuidean is the last place on Earth that Access Keys can be found. Coincidence/Luck....Yeah, Right....Preordained is the proper term. The Access Keys are secured in a city that only one group of people know exist, the city is protected by wards similar to those that a dreamspike provides. Ishy could not have found the Access Keys, and the Pattern made certain of it by hiding them in a city Ishy could not find. Ishy stood at Hawkwing's elbow and Hawkwing attacked the Aiel, but was turned back by them. Had Hawkwing won, possibly Ishy could have found Rhuidean, but the Pattern made sure that the Aiel held his armies back.

 

But another thought is that while we (some of us) have been studying the works of the DO for 20 years, Verin had been studying them for over 70 years and still was not sure of the DO's motivations. Why should we be expected to understand what the DO chooses to have his minions do?

 

I never used the word luck? You're making it sound like you disagree with my post but the message of your post is the exact same as mine. Both posts boil down to "The Pattern did not want Ishmael to have the Access Keys, so he didn't get them"

 

 

Sorry, I was referring to the post you quoted. I was actually agreeing with you, but it's alot simpler to click the "reply" button at the bottom that it is to go through all the effort to 'quote' a previous post. Sorry, my message was not intended for you. I see no reason to preach to the choir.The post you quoted referred to Rand as "lucky" about the CK being in Rhuidean.

Edited by Ishadar
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