The Dragon Vs. The Amyrlin

[Phoenix8514]

Hello everyone this is my first post so hopefully it won't be too bad. I would side with Rand. There are some valid points on the other side of the debate, but in the end it comes down to trusting the man destined to save the world or not. He was literally born to do this. In addition, he has access to his past life and greater knowledge. This is a war and every war needs a leader. You can debate, but eventually you have to act and in a unified matter so I would side with the Dragon.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, breaking the seals will not fully release the Dark One. Even when the seals were first placed on the Bore, he was not free. I think that removing the seals would leave him at that point. Sure he will have more direct influence, but he would still not be free. The seals are failing anyway. Soon, they will not work. Like it was said before on here it is better to fight at a time of your choosing.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Hello everyone this is my first post so hopefully it won't be too bad. I would side with Rand. There are some valid points on the other side of the debate, but in the end it comes down to trusting the man destined to save the world or not. He was literally born to do this. In addition, he has access to his past life and greater knowledge. This is a war and every war needs a leader. You can debate, but eventually you have to act and in a unified matter so I would side with the Dragon.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, breaking the seals will not fully release the Dark One. Even when the seals were first placed on the Bore, he was not free. I think that removing the seals would leave him at that point. Sure he will have more direct influence, but he would still not be free. The seals are failing anyway. Soon, they will not work. Like it was said before on here it is better to fight at a time of your choosing.

 

Good post. I do agree.

 

Some people seem to be forgetting that the borderlands have fallen, Caemlyn is burning and the Shadow is in full swing. There is no more time for planning. (and the AS arnt even doing that, no brown sisters comming up with alternatives) So even though Rand hasnt fully worked out his plan, its better than Egwene's. All she has is "Dont break the seals." Not a very convincing arguement.

 

If they waited around discussing things, the world would be consumed by the Shadow. The LB HAS STARTED ALREADY. They will be lucky if they have a week left before the seals broke themselves anyway. Better to face the enemy while you are strong, rather than wait for a miracle and become desperate.

[Phoenix8514]

Hello everyone this is my first post so hopefully it won't be too bad. I would side with Rand. There are some valid points on the other side of the debate, but in the end it comes down to trusting the man destined to save the world or not. He was literally born to do this. In addition, he has access to his past life and greater knowledge. This is a war and every war needs a leader. You can debate, but eventually you have to act and in a unified matter so I would side with the Dragon.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, breaking the seals will not fully release the Dark One. Even when the seals were first placed on the Bore, he was not free. I think that removing the seals would leave him at that point. Sure he will have more direct influence, but he would still not be free. The seals are failing anyway. Soon, they will not work. Like it was said before on here it is better to fight at a time of your choosing.

 

Good post. I do agree.

 

Some people seem to be forgetting that the borderlands have fallen, Caemlyn is burning and the Shadow is in full swing. There is no more time for planning. (and the AS arnt even doing that, no brown sisters comming up with alternatives) So even though Rand hasnt fully worked out his plan, its better than Egwene's. All she has is "Dont break the seals." Not a very convincing arguement.

 

If they waited around discussing things, the world would be consumed by the Shadow. The LB HAS STARTED ALREADY. They will be lucky if they have a week left before the seals broke themselves anyway. Better to face the enemy while you are strong, rather than wait for a miracle and become desperate.

 

You are correct. Lands are falling. What irritated me about the last book in general is the total lack of planning for the LB. Rand is gearing up for it. Perrin and Mat are as well. What is the Amyrlin doing? Planning for what to do after they fight the battle. Sure it is good to unify female channlers, but let's win the LB first. She seems to take if for granted that Rand will prevail, but at the same time she doesn't want to trust him with his plan of attack. Plus you have Elayne deciding how to deal with the Two Rivers and such, but all her plans mean nothing if they lose. Win the war then deal with the other stuff. Besides, there it is not certain the LB will leave Andor and all the other nations together. taking on the Dark One will have an effect on the land. Like I said before, it is no or never. They need to get behind Rand.

[moratcorlm]

“You can never know everything,” Lan said quietly, “and part of what you know is always wrong. Perhaps even the most important part. A portion of wisdom lies in knowing that. A portion of courage lies in going on anyway.”

People who think Rand is now Jesus seem to think that some of the major themes of the series will be tossed out the window now that it's time for the conclusion. I think Jordan and even Sanderson deserve a little more faith than that.

 

Rand and Egwene both are only threads for the Wheel to use. Neither is infallible, and I think the evidence very strongly suggests that neither is right – nor will any be until the three become one.

[Entreri]

Egwene is a clueless noob. Rand = LTT = the greatest human being to ever live in any Age. Forget about it.

[Hopefire]

Rand has become, as TV Tropes would put it, Genre Savvy. I attribute that to why Rand was able to walk into Tar Valon without much worry. He knew what would happen if the White Tower tried to keep him – an earthquake, bee swarm, the Aes Sedai shielding him all deciding to swear oath to him and get him safely back to his own lands, runaway marching band, something. Basically, he knows that A) he's done this before (how, he has no idea, but he was able to do it in previous versions of the Third Age), and B) the Pattern itself is going to be doing everything it can to make sure he has everything he needs, when he needs it, C) understanding that much of what has happened has happened for a reason, he realizes that if his girlfriend is researching the Prophecies and the problem at hand, chances are she'll figure it out, or at least figure out enough that he'll be able to take it from there.

 

Also, Rand has been making mysterious jaunts about. We know where three of his jaunts were for certain (Bandar Eban, Maradon and Far Madding); he made another trip after his return to Tear but before Bandar Eban (we don't know where), and he appears to have gone to Tar Valon again shortly after Maradon. I base the second trip to Tar Valon on the descriptions appearing on pg 509 in TOM; golden sunlight and good tasting soup are described as being present. From Cadsuane's reaction to the tea being good when Rand first returns to Tear, we can infer that although Min, Elayne and likely Aviendha might create sunlight zones by their presence, they don't create good tasting food, ergo Rand was likely present at Tar Valon.*

 

Anyhow, we can know about one errand for certain, and a second trip to Tar Valon is highly probable. My suspicion is that Rand and Min raided the Tower library for information. Whatever the case, while we know Rand didn't know how to fix the problem at the start of TOM, he may know more now. We never got a clear explanation for his plans for the Cleansing of the Taunt until zero hour either. And finally, he's probably justified in a “the Pattern will arrange for what I need to be available” stance; he just found out that the woman who drilled the bloody hole is alive and potentially sympathetic to his aim.

 

 

 

* By way of alternate theories, Min might have borrowed an Aes Sedai or Asha'man and had her or him open a gateway to Tar Valon, and the effect of the proxy Light source that Min and the other girls provide might be increasing; alternatively, Nynaeve might be generating similar Light.

[Pokeriser]

I have only one thing to say: Egwene would get owned if this poll were used.

[randsc]

I think the good tasting soup was because the ingredients came from Caemlyn.

[animals]

As a reader I believe Rand is right, but if I was a character in Randland I would take Egwene's side without a doubt.

[Hopefire]

I think the good tasting soup was because the ingredients came from Caemlyn.

They did, but it's been mentioned multiple times that food can spoil instantly, and even when Min has been around tea hasn't tasted great. Cadsuane gets a cup of tea just as Rand arrives in TOM, and she's shocked that the tea tastes good - despite having been around Min. It's also possible that the effects of the proxy Light are growing, and that Min or Elayne's presence can now make food taste good again, but it's not certain by any means. Further, regardless of where the food came from, the fact is that there was warm golden sunlight coming in the window. That only happens with Rand or the girls around. It doesn't appear to have been Elayne, Aviendha is nominally elsewhere, but Rand and Min are relatively unaccounted for, and known to be running errands.

[Durinax]

I would take rands side. Just knowing what he is. whereas egwene (even attempting to discount my hatred of her) as a male I would find it difficult to cast my lot in with her (due to male female relations in WoT)

[jimhoffa]

if the bore is sealed by rand using saidin and saidar, then frankly it is going to be one of the biggest ending BS ever. How can jordan say that if the women joined up with LTT's plan shaitan would have tainted saidar too?

I agree. Having said both Saidin and Saidar would have been tainted back then, I would be disappointed if Rand just "did it right" this time.

 

Did the original seal attempt use an Angreal/Sa'angreal at all? It's a possibility that it is indeed the use of saidin and saidar pulled through Callandor that finishes of the DO and as the DO lashes back on the saidin and saidar to taint them, his taint stops at Callandor (black hand grasping the sword) and can go no further (and perhaps even forces Callandor to overload). That's why I'm wondering about whether the original sealing made use of an Angreal/Sa'angreal or not. Anyways the point being even though RJ said it would have tainted both sides, did he only mean that as if it was straight from chaneler to the DO, whereas if you put a buffer inbetween it can block the taint...

[Mr Ares]

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

Well, if the Pope asked Jesus what his plan was to defeat Satan, and Jesus admitted he didn't have one, and hoped things would work out for the best, and the Pope said that maybe he should wait until he had a plan, I would admit the Pope had a point and side with him.

 

 

Hello everyone this is my first post so hopefully it won't be too bad. I would side with Rand. There are some valid points on the other side of the debate, but in the end it comes down to trusting the man destined to save the world or not. He was literally born to do this. In addition, he has access to his past life and greater knowledge. This is a war and every war needs a leader. You can debate, but eventually you have to act and in a unified matter so I would side with the Dragon.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, breaking the seals will not fully release the Dark One. Even when the seals were first placed on the Bore, he was not free. I think that removing the seals would leave him at that point. Sure he will have more direct influence, but he would still not be free. The seals are failing anyway. Soon, they will not work. Like it was said before on here it is better to fight at a time of your choosing.

While it is Rand's job to save the world, he is not all-knowing, still less is he infallible. It is not unreasonable to expect him to come up with a plan first. Leaders often do come up with plans, you know. As for fighting at a time of your choosing, look at it this way: you're under siege, your castle needs repairs done on the walls. You decide to tear them down (and it has to be done during the siege), but you admit you don't have a damn clue as to how to stop the enemy hordes flooding through the gap you've just created in your defences. Bad. Come up with a plan to hold them at bay before demolishing the wall. Good. Choosing when to fight is one thing, but you must also look at how to fight, and do so before the fight begins. Rand has chosen a when, but it still stumbling around in the dark for the how. Egwene is saying come up with a how.

[Barid Bel Medar]

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

Well, if the Pope asked Jesus what his plan was to defeat Satan, and Jesus admitted he didn't have one, and hoped things would work out for the best, and the Pope said that maybe he should wait until he had a plan, I would admit the Pope had a point and side with him.

 

 

Hello everyone this is my first post so hopefully it won't be too bad. I would side with Rand. There are some valid points on the other side of the debate, but in the end it comes down to trusting the man destined to save the world or not. He was literally born to do this. In addition, he has access to his past life and greater knowledge. This is a war and every war needs a leader. You can debate, but eventually you have to act and in a unified matter so I would side with the Dragon.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, breaking the seals will not fully release the Dark One. Even when the seals were first placed on the Bore, he was not free. I think that removing the seals would leave him at that point. Sure he will have more direct influence, but he would still not be free. The seals are failing anyway. Soon, they will not work. Like it was said before on here it is better to fight at a time of your choosing.

While it is Rand's job to save the world, he is not all-knowing, still less is he infallible. It is not unreasonable to expect him to come up with a plan first. Leaders often do come up with plans, you know. As for fighting at a time of your choosing, look at it this way: you're under siege, your castle needs repairs done on the walls. You decide to tear them down (and it has to be done during the siege), but you admit you don't have a damn clue as to how to stop the enemy hordes flooding through the gap you've just created in your defences. Bad. Come up with a plan to hold them at bay before demolishing the wall. Good. Choosing when to fight is one thing, but you must also look at how to fight, and do so before the fight begins. Rand has chosen a when, but it still stumbling around in the dark for the how. Egwene is saying come up with a how.

 

 

I dont disagree with this reasoning.

 

But since when was Egwene "saying come up with a how"?

 

All she has been doing is saying, You cant do this.

 

Not, explain it to me. Nor, come up with a plan.

 

As readers, of course we want Rand comming up with a plan, that would be the wisest course.

 

But nowwhere does Egwene even think, "give me a plan and i will agree"

 

All she is doing is saying. "You cant break the seals". Even if Rand DID have a plan, she still opposes it.

 

It seems people are comming up with sensible arguements for Rand to wait and come up with a plan, and saying that is what Egwene is doing. She is not, that is what we as a reader think, not Egwene. So you cant attribute that to her.

[Majsju]

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

Well, if the Pope asked Jesus what his plan was to defeat Satan, and Jesus admitted he didn't have one, and hoped things would work out for the best, and the Pope said that maybe he should wait until he had a plan, I would admit the Pope had a point and side with him.

 

 

Hello everyone this is my first post so hopefully it won't be too bad. I would side with Rand. There are some valid points on the other side of the debate, but in the end it comes down to trusting the man destined to save the world or not. He was literally born to do this. In addition, he has access to his past life and greater knowledge. This is a war and every war needs a leader. You can debate, but eventually you have to act and in a unified matter so I would side with the Dragon.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, breaking the seals will not fully release the Dark One. Even when the seals were first placed on the Bore, he was not free. I think that removing the seals would leave him at that point. Sure he will have more direct influence, but he would still not be free. The seals are failing anyway. Soon, they will not work. Like it was said before on here it is better to fight at a time of your choosing.

While it is Rand's job to save the world, he is not all-knowing, still less is he infallible. It is not unreasonable to expect him to come up with a plan first. Leaders often do come up with plans, you know. As for fighting at a time of your choosing, look at it this way: you're under siege, your castle needs repairs done on the walls. You decide to tear them down (and it has to be done during the siege), but you admit you don't have a damn clue as to how to stop the enemy hordes flooding through the gap you've just created in your defences. Bad. Come up with a plan to hold them at bay before demolishing the wall. Good. Choosing when to fight is one thing, but you must also look at how to fight, and do so before the fight begins. Rand has chosen a when, but it still stumbling around in the dark for the how. Egwene is saying come up with a how.

 

 

I dont disagree with this reasoning.

 

But since when was Egwene "saying come up with a how"?

 

All she has been doing is saying, You cant do this.

 

Not, explain it to me. Nor, come up with a plan.

 

As readers, of course we want Rand comming up with a plan, that would be the wisest course.

 

But nowwhere does Egwene even think, "give me a plan and i will agree"

 

All she is doing is saying. "You cant break the seals". Even if Rand DID have a plan, she still opposes it.

 

It seems people are comming up with sensible arguements for Rand to wait and come up with a plan, and saying that is what Egwene is doing. She is not, that is what we as a reader think, not Egwene. So you cant attribute that to her.

 

Heh. To pull a quote from TOM...

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

Does not really get much more plain than that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

Well, if the Pope asked Jesus what his plan was to defeat Satan, and Jesus admitted he didn't have one, and hoped things would work out for the best, and the Pope said that maybe he should wait until he had a plan, I would admit the Pope had a point and side with him.

 

 

Hello everyone this is my first post so hopefully it won't be too bad. I would side with Rand. There are some valid points on the other side of the debate, but in the end it comes down to trusting the man destined to save the world or not. He was literally born to do this. In addition, he has access to his past life and greater knowledge. This is a war and every war needs a leader. You can debate, but eventually you have to act and in a unified matter so I would side with the Dragon.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, breaking the seals will not fully release the Dark One. Even when the seals were first placed on the Bore, he was not free. I think that removing the seals would leave him at that point. Sure he will have more direct influence, but he would still not be free. The seals are failing anyway. Soon, they will not work. Like it was said before on here it is better to fight at a time of your choosing.

While it is Rand's job to save the world, he is not all-knowing, still less is he infallible. It is not unreasonable to expect him to come up with a plan first. Leaders often do come up with plans, you know. As for fighting at a time of your choosing, look at it this way: you're under siege, your castle needs repairs done on the walls. You decide to tear them down (and it has to be done during the siege), but you admit you don't have a damn clue as to how to stop the enemy hordes flooding through the gap you've just created in your defences. Bad. Come up with a plan to hold them at bay before demolishing the wall. Good. Choosing when to fight is one thing, but you must also look at how to fight, and do so before the fight begins. Rand has chosen a when, but it still stumbling around in the dark for the how. Egwene is saying come up with a how.

 

 

I dont disagree with this reasoning.

 

But since when was Egwene "saying come up with a how"?

 

All she has been doing is saying, You cant do this.

 

Not, explain it to me. Nor, come up with a plan.

 

As readers, of course we want Rand comming up with a plan, that would be the wisest course.

 

But nowwhere does Egwene even think, "give me a plan and i will agree"

 

All she is doing is saying. "You cant break the seals". Even if Rand DID have a plan, she still opposes it.

 

It seems people are comming up with sensible arguements for Rand to wait and come up with a plan, and saying that is what Egwene is doing. She is not, that is what we as a reader think, not Egwene. So you cant attribute that to her.

 

Heh. To pull a quote from TOM...

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

Does not really get much more plain than that.

 

Edit: eh, good enough point.

 

I have edited the poll.

 

new answer is "Just get on with it".

 

Basically, taking no sides. Just want both of them to actually communicate and get on with fighting the DO.

[randsc]

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

Well, if the Pope asked Jesus what his plan was to defeat Satan, and Jesus admitted he didn't have one, and hoped things would work out for the best, and the Pope said that maybe he should wait until he had a plan, I would admit the Pope had a point and side with him.

 

 

Hello everyone this is my first post so hopefully it won't be too bad. I would side with Rand. There are some valid points on the other side of the debate, but in the end it comes down to trusting the man destined to save the world or not. He was literally born to do this. In addition, he has access to his past life and greater knowledge. This is a war and every war needs a leader. You can debate, but eventually you have to act and in a unified matter so I would side with the Dragon.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, breaking the seals will not fully release the Dark One. Even when the seals were first placed on the Bore, he was not free. I think that removing the seals would leave him at that point. Sure he will have more direct influence, but he would still not be free. The seals are failing anyway. Soon, they will not work. Like it was said before on here it is better to fight at a time of your choosing.

While it is Rand's job to save the world, he is not all-knowing, still less is he infallible. It is not unreasonable to expect him to come up with a plan first. Leaders often do come up with plans, you know. As for fighting at a time of your choosing, look at it this way: you're under siege, your castle needs repairs done on the walls. You decide to tear them down (and it has to be done during the siege), but you admit you don't have a damn clue as to how to stop the enemy hordes flooding through the gap you've just created in your defences. Bad. Come up with a plan to hold them at bay before demolishing the wall. Good. Choosing when to fight is one thing, but you must also look at how to fight, and do so before the fight begins. Rand has chosen a when, but it still stumbling around in the dark for the how. Egwene is saying come up with a how.

 

 

No, you wouldn't. If you did, you don't believe in Christian metaphysics. And in WOT-world, they KNOW their metaphysics to be true.

[moratcorlm]

No, you wouldn't. If you did, you don't believe in Christian metaphysics. And in WOT-world, they KNOW their metaphysics to be true.

What, precisely, are you trying to imply when you say this?

[Fel]

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

Well, if the Pope asked Jesus what his plan was to defeat Satan, and Jesus admitted he didn't have one, and hoped things would work out for the best, and the Pope said that maybe he should wait until he had a plan, I would admit the Pope had a point and side with him.

But, how does waiting help? Right now, reality itself is failing and the world is starting to starve and die (look at Apples First chapter to see the despair in the populace). Waiting is a death sentence for millions of your troops. Acting now, even with imperfect information, is far more preferable. And, the Jesus asked the Pope to plan for him ("that is why I came to you. To let you plan."), but, instead, she just spent the time raising armies against him.

 

Hello everyone this is my first post so hopefully it won't be too bad. I would side with Rand. There are some valid points on the other side of the debate, but in the end it comes down to trusting the man destined to save the world or not. He was literally born to do this. In addition, he has access to his past life and greater knowledge. This is a war and every war needs a leader. You can debate, but eventually you have to act and in a unified matter so I would side with the Dragon.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, breaking the seals will not fully release the Dark One. Even when the seals were first placed on the Bore, he was not free. I think that removing the seals would leave him at that point. Sure he will have more direct influence, but he would still not be free. The seals are failing anyway. Soon, they will not work. Like it was said before on here it is better to fight at a time of your choosing.

While it is Rand's job to save the world, he is not all-knowing, still less is he infallible. It is not unreasonable to expect him to come up with a plan first. Leaders often do come up with plans, you know. As for fighting at a time of your choosing, look at it this way: you're under siege, your castle needs repairs done on the walls. You decide to tear them down (and it has to be done during the siege), but you admit you don't have a damn clue as to how to stop the enemy hordes flooding through the gap you've just created in your defences. Bad. Come up with a plan to hold them at bay before demolishing the wall. Good. Choosing when to fight is one thing, but you must also look at how to fight, and do so before the fight begins. Rand has chosen a when, but it still stumbling around in the dark for the how. Egwene is saying come up with a how.

Your analogy is close, but missing a couple of key factors. Add in 2 things... You are out of food and your troops are starving inside your castle and your walls are starting to fail now. The choice is to quietly starve and then watch the walls fall on their own, or to open the gates and launch an attack while your people are still strong enough. Neither option is very good, but the second one at least has a chance of success.

[Phoenix8514]

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

Well, if the Pope asked Jesus what his plan was to defeat Satan, and Jesus admitted he didn't have one, and hoped things would work out for the best, and the Pope said that maybe he should wait until he had a plan, I would admit the Pope had a point and side with him.

 

 

Hello everyone this is my first post so hopefully it won't be too bad. I would side with Rand. There are some valid points on the other side of the debate, but in the end it comes down to trusting the man destined to save the world or not. He was literally born to do this. In addition, he has access to his past life and greater knowledge. This is a war and every war needs a leader. You can debate, but eventually you have to act and in a unified matter so I would side with the Dragon.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, breaking the seals will not fully release the Dark One. Even when the seals were first placed on the Bore, he was not free. I think that removing the seals would leave him at that point. Sure he will have more direct influence, but he would still not be free. The seals are failing anyway. Soon, they will not work. Like it was said before on here it is better to fight at a time of your choosing.

While it is Rand's job to save the world, he is not all-knowing, still less is he infallible. It is not unreasonable to expect him to come up with a plan first. Leaders often do come up with plans, you know. As for fighting at a time of your choosing, look at it this way: you're under siege, your castle needs repairs done on the walls. You decide to tear them down (and it has to be done during the siege), but you admit you don't have a damn clue as to how to stop the enemy hordes flooding through the gap you've just created in your defences. Bad. Come up with a plan to hold them at bay before demolishing the wall. Good. Choosing when to fight is one thing, but you must also look at how to fight, and do so before the fight begins. Rand has chosen a when, but it still stumbling around in the dark for the how. Egwene is saying come up with a how.

 

Rand may not have a plan fully formed yet, but I believe he has some idea of what needs to be done. Egwene's fears of breaking the seals are justified. It is a scary thought. I would have not problem if she gave Rand another idea how to beat the Dark One or what to do after he breaks the seals. She doesn't. She just does not want him to break the seals and spends alot of her time gathering support against him. If she wants to be seen as a leader and have a larger role, she should offer solutions instead of just an objection and trying to undermine the loyalty others have given him. Eventually, she will have to understand when the Dragon with most of his forces together says it is time to go then it is time to go.

[Elan Tedronai]

Ironic that LTT seemed to be more reasonable back in AOL. He didnt go through with his plan until the access keys were lost and the light was losing the war.

 

Right now he wants to break the seals, start another war of power and figure out what to do from there. Sounds reasonable? i don't think so.

 

If someone was going to war without a plan on how to defeat his enemy, in any situation we would call that person a fool. Simple basic human understanding. But then again, the lord dragon and his followers have long surpassed the boundaries of common sense. It's more like 'Trust me, i know what i am doing right' because i am the saviour and the destined to save the world

[randsc]

Your analogy is close, but missing a couple of key factors. Add in 2 things... You are out of food and your troops are starving inside your castle and your walls are starting to fail now. The choice is to quietly starve and then watch the walls fall on their own, or to open the gates and launch an attack while your people are still strong enough. Neither option is very good, but the second one at least has a chance of success.

 

Exactly right. Leaving aside the question of whether you would side with the living embodiment of your religion, or an earthly figure who claimed to be better qualiifed to determine how to fight a metaphysical battle, which is absurd...

 

They don't have TIME to dither, debate back and forth, sooth egos, solicit input from all concened parties, and all the rest. Rand is exactly right; they need to climb that wall while they still have the strength, not run a marathon first.

 

I don't blame Egwene for opposing Rand's desire to break the seals. She's clearly caught up in his Ta'veren influence (see her dizziness following their conversation) and is doing just what the pattern requires of her.

 

I DO blame Egwene for not using the considerable resources at her disposal to research other options. There is NO evidence in the text that she is doing this. I don't find the, "maybe she is really spending all kinds of time off-screen harrying the Browns and Whites into coming up with a plan, and the Greens into training for a Seanchan attack." Those are things too important to happen off-screen without a hint in the textt. Indeed, we are told in the text that she has the Browns working on her political scheme.

 

I also find the "why should Egwene make a plan" argument idiotic. Why should Egwene make a plan for the Last Battle? How about because for 3000 years, poor farmers have been sending their hard-earned money to the Tower, so that the Tower can stand against the Shadow when the time comes? The Borderlanders aren't taxing their people (or, for that matter, diverting funds from their armed forces) just to keep Aes Sedai in silk dresses.

[Phoenix8514]

I would say the light is losing the war now. The Borderlands have fallen and the capital of Andor is burning and may well be destroyed. The Seanchan are ready to launch another attack against Tar Valon. The Light is losing ground and time. The seals are almost completely useless now as well. I mean a fall from a table could break the ones left. I would say the situation is as bad now as it was when LTT launched his attack.

[randsc]

Ironic that LTT seemed to be more reasonable back in AOL. He didnt go through with his plan until the access keys were lost and the light was losing the war.

 

Right now he wants to break the seals, start another war of power and figure out what to do from there. Sounds reasonable? i don't think so.

 

If someone was going to war without a plan on how to defeat his enemy, in any situation we would call that person a fool. Simple basic human understanding. But then again, the lord dragon and his followers have long surpassed the boundaries of common sense. It's more like 'Trust me, i know what i am doing right' because i am the saviour and the destined to save the world

 

There is two things here.

 

Rand either does not know or he does know but does not want to say it to egwene. Either way he can't be suprised by egwene's opposition.

 

What's foolish is hiding in your closet when your house in on fire.

[Elan Tedronai]

Ironic that LTT seemed to be more reasonable back in AOL. He didnt go through with his plan until the access keys were lost and the light was losing the war.

 

Right now he wants to break the seals, start another war of power and figure out what to do from there. Sounds reasonable? i don't think so.

 

If someone was going to war without a plan on how to defeat his enemy, in any situation we would call that person a fool. Simple basic human understanding. But then again, the lord dragon and his followers have long surpassed the boundaries of common sense. It's more like 'Trust me, i know what i am doing right' because i am the saviour and the destined to save the world

 

There is two things here.

 

Rand either does not know or he does know but does not want to say it to egwene. Either way he can't be suprised by egwene's opposition.

 

What's foolish is hiding in your closet when your house in on fire.

 

house on fire? you think breaking the seals and opening the bore is tantamount to extinguishing the flames? jeez.