Oh Egwene Thoust Ego Is So Big

[MattTaz]

Nah not really her fault the WT have played a major part for 3,000 years, but when Gawyn said to her something like 'your the most powerful woman in the world' or

'you carry the weight of the world on your shoulders' I thought, man you guys have tabs on yourselves. But I was wondering where you would fit the AS in the worlds power?

Admittedly the agreement between the AS. WO's and Sea Folk will increase there spehere of influence, but are they the big power they once were.

 

So here are the list of heavyweights:

Clearly No 1

Rand - Caracarn (sp?) Cooramoor, Lord of the Two Rivers, King of Illian, The Dragon Reborn, and will bind the 9 moons to serve him.

others:

Perrin - Steward of the Two Rivers, Subject Lord to Elayne, Liege Lord of Ghealden, Wife is Cousin of Queen of Saldaea

Elayne - Leader of an almagamation of countries, numbering 5 or 6 (i reckon berelain agreed to it) controls the Kin - and Cannons at present

Tuon - 4 countries if you include Almoth Plain - married to Mat. Not sure whether to include Seanchan in this as their is fighting there.

Mat - most likely the 2nd most powerful person in the Seanchan Empire. The Hornsounder. Best General in the Land

Logain - according to Min about to achieve Power and Glory as few men have seen. Most likely will control the Black Tower.

 

So I have two questions:

 

Where do you think the Egwene falls into the the political powers of influence in Randland

and

If you were Logain, would you join the WT? Or if they stay in Andor ally yourself to Elayne and the Kin - the reason I say this is Elayne

seems to be thinking about it.

[raolan]

Rand clearly has a large influence on Randland. I mean... that's half the reason it's called Randland.

 

But when you think about it, the person with the most influence is the Dark One. Darkfriends everywhere, controls a never ending swarm of monsters (why do all evil guys in stories seem to zerg it?), I suspect if he wanted to he could have more gholam to easily wipe out the entire White Tower's channeling population, even if only one was doing it.

 

Anyway, most leaders at this stage seem to be caring less and less about the White Tower and care more about Rand. Still, as anyone can tell by the Fields of Merrilor, the White Tower obviously holds a lot of influence. Influence, not power.

[soullessktty]

Aes Sedai of the 3rd Age, though they *think* they are "servant to all", has been meddler of other countries's politic at worst, and the string holder of most government at best. So, the WT's power of influence will depend on if Egwene can hold all the strings in her hand or not, which I doubt that very much seeing how some seems to be neutral when being asked to join in in FoM to go against Rand's plan. Remember, AS have been known to be manipulator, the inventor of Game of the House, if there is a power to balance AS, I am sure many will ally the counterpart, or at the least, having two power in check and balance rather than one dominating power.

 

As for Logain, if (or when) his Power and Glory means full control of BT, I prefer Rand let BT has its own reign and decide what Logain and his followers want to do with BT. In which case, it is likely Logain will not join WT (my preference), and stand alone as counterpart of WT. It is also preferable, should BT join Rand's force, it's not because Rand commands it, but because Logain feels it's the right thing to do to ally with Rand.

 

Though, I am hoping Rand reveals and teaches (or at least letting someone know, which we also know little about) what being AS means in the Age of Legend, and hopefully AS and AM realize what it means having OP in the AoL.

[MattTaz]

It is a good call that Zen-Rand would let the BT find their own feet. Possibly Logain would be the M'Hael but he would probably have a council

not be a complete dictator like Taim.

Its just that when Elayne was thinking of how to claim the BT for Andor I thought why should the Asha'man join the WT.

I guess the question is for after the LB has been won.

Everybody know is aimed at fighting, but after the dust settles what becomes of what organisation.

[Lacanos]

I'm sorry, but your list is insane.

I'm certainly not an Egwene fan, but there's no doubt that through the White Tower, she's the 2nd most influential/powerful of the good guys, after Rand of course. Third is certainly Elayne, she is waaaaaaay more powerful and influential than Perrin. Tuon also.

[MattTaz]

I'm sorry, but your list is insane.

I'm certainly not an Egwene fan, but there's no doubt that through the White Tower, she's the 2nd most influential/powerful of the good guys, after Rand of course. Third is certainly Elayne, she is waaaaaaay more powerful and influential than Perrin. Tuon also.

 

I'm sorry but your eyesight is insane. I said Rand is clearly no1, then mentioned the others and asked where you thought Egwene fitted in

[Muad Cheade]

Is this to be a comparison of each rulers' military and economic power?

[moratcorlm]

I really can't get past "thoust." Sorry.

[MattTaz]

I really can't get past "thoust." Sorry.

 

Sorry I was having a Monty Python moment :P

[MattTaz]

Is this to be a comparison of each rulers' military and economic power?

 

Yeah, basically its 'who can tell the White Tower to piss off and mind their own business' after the LB.

Tuon will thats for sure. And yes her name is now Fortunate or whatever but 12 years of calling her Tuon is a hard habit to break :)

[Elan Tedronai]

You haven't seen anything yet. just you wait when rand retires after the last battle and logain assumes the leadership of the ashaman.

 

There will be no black tower. Black tower will be rent in fire and blood. That leaves that mega palace elaida built next to the white tower. teehee. Oh i can't wait for that.

 

 

after the last battle, egwene will be the most powerful aes sedai in the world. Fulfilling elaida's foretelling. Oh i can't wait for the bitter tears that will inevitably follow

[David Selig]

The Tower is no longer the dominant political force in Randland, but it still have plenty of power and influence. The Ais Sedai's political influence, though much diminished due to their split and the rise of the Dragon Reborn and the Seanchan, is still significant. Just look how she convinced most world leaders to come to Merrilor, even those like Darlin who were under Rand's authority and had the Seanchan threat to think of. After Tuon Egwene is the most powerful women in the world.

[Grandis]

You haven't seen anything yet. just you wait when rand retires after the last battle and logain assumes the leadership of the ashaman.

 

There will be no black tower. Black tower will be rent in fire and blood. That leaves that mega palace elaida built next to the white tower. teehee. Oh i can't wait for that.

 

 

after the last battle, egwene will be the most powerful aes sedai in the world. Fulfilling elaida's foretelling. Oh i can't wait for the bitter tears that will inevitably follow

 

You seem to have forgotten Nicola's foretelling regarding post-LB. "The guardians will balance the servants" or some such. I admittedly had similar thoughts about that building Elaida started on, but I have since changed my mind.

[gambril]

You haven't seen anything yet. just you wait when rand retires after the last battle and logain assumes the leadership of the ashaman.

 

There will be no black tower. Black tower will be rent in fire and blood. That leaves that mega palace elaida built next to the white tower. teehee. Oh i can't wait for that.

 

 

after the last battle, egwene will be the most powerful aes sedai in the world. Fulfilling elaida's foretelling. Oh i can't wait for the bitter tears that will inevitably follow

 

You seem to have forgotten Nicola's foretelling regarding post-LB. "The guardians will balance the servants" or some such. I admittedly had similar thoughts about that building Elaida started on, but I have since changed my mind.

 

Yes. Logain's glory is tied to that. Logain's glory will come from being the first male Aes Sedai of the Third Age most likely. His name would be remembered throughout the Fourth Age for it. The Black Tower isn't going to make it into the Fourth Age. It will be "rent in fire and blood". It has no place in Randland after the Last Battle.

 

Power in Randland I would say Elayne/Tuon/Egwene are all pretty close, after Rand of course.

[Mats Spare Hat]

In terms of political power rankings, I'd put Tuon above Rand.

 

Easy boo-birds, settle down now. In the only face to face quasi-political situation, Tuon comes out the winner - and Rand at the time was using all his dark-rand ta'varen-ness that he could muster to bend her to his will...and it doesn't work.

 

I mean if you even wanted to go into something like Avienda's visions of the future, the Seanchan come out on top - and they aren't even the ones that start that fight.

 

It's kind of loaded with politics anyway, when there's ta'varen involved. You could be Rand and be the begger on a street, and if you're strong enough a TV than it's more than likely you'll come out smelling like roses just how you wanted, regardless of the opposition. There again, though, Tuon manages to wrest the win, or at least a draw, from pattern-twisting Rand. In that case though, considering it is Rand, the most powerful TV since Hawkwing wanting what he wanted to happen, even the draw can be taken as a win for Tuon.

 

It is specifically that sole head to head moment that rationalizes Tuon ahead of Rand, for me. Granted, there will most likely be a second round - so we'll get to see how things go when that happens too.

 

You could also argue that without the Seanchan, Perrin would still be brooding away like a dope outside of Malden, sans forkroot, damane, and troop support to take on the Aiel. Bummed out Faile-less Perrin still at Malden = No bad mamma-jamma-with-a-hammah.

 

Direct Political Power Structure, as of ToM.

 

1.) Tuon

1a.) Rand

2.) Egwene

3.) Elayne

4.) Perrin

5.) Mat

 

Mat is the x-factor for me, in that he's married to Tuon. As readers we aren't afforded any real knowledge of what sort of power, if any at all, he gains from that relationship. He's Prince of the Ravens, but for all we know that could mean he gets free coffee on Wednesday.

 

 

That's how my cookie crumbles.

[Elan Tedronai]

You haven't seen anything yet. just you wait when rand retires after the last battle and logain assumes the leadership of the ashaman.

 

There will be no black tower. Black tower will be rent in fire and blood. That leaves that mega palace elaida built next to the white tower. teehee. Oh i can't wait for that.

 

 

after the last battle, egwene will be the most powerful aes sedai in the world. Fulfilling elaida's foretelling. Oh i can't wait for the bitter tears that will inevitably follow

 

You seem to have forgotten Nicola's foretelling regarding post-LB. "The guardians will balance the servants" or some such. I admittedly had similar thoughts about that building Elaida started on, but I have since changed my mind.

 

 

logain and his crew will join the aes sedai led by egwene and become the first official male aes sedai. They shall be properly raised. How that happens is anyone's guess. Egwene al vere the amyrlin is not satisfied with just leading female chanellers you know.

[Grandis]

You haven't seen anything yet. just you wait when rand retires after the last battle and logain assumes the leadership of the ashaman.

 

There will be no black tower. Black tower will be rent in fire and blood. That leaves that mega palace elaida built next to the white tower. teehee. Oh i can't wait for that.

 

 

after the last battle, egwene will be the most powerful aes sedai in the world. Fulfilling elaida's foretelling. Oh i can't wait for the bitter tears that will inevitably follow

 

You seem to have forgotten Nicola's foretelling regarding post-LB. "The guardians will balance the servants" or some such. I admittedly had similar thoughts about that building Elaida started on, but I have since changed my mind.

 

 

logain and his crew will join the aes sedai led by egwene and become the first official male aes sedai. They shall be properly raised. How that happens is anyone's guess. Egwene al vere the amyrlin is not satisfied with just leading female chanellers you know.

 

If the "balance" part of the foretelling is to come true, Egwene and all the other AS will need a major change in attitude, since I have yet to see a single one of them greet the prospect of equality with even the slightest acceptance. I just don't see the Asha'man joining the WT without that foretelling going down the drain. I also don't see them being willing to accept the three oaths knowing how badly it would constrain them in a fight against the Seanchan.

 

I do agree with you that Egwene is powerhungry enough to want to gobble up any and all channellers into the WT.

[Muad Cheade]

Is this to be a comparison of each rulers' military and economic power?

 

Yeah, basically its 'who can tell the White Tower to piss off and mind their own business' after the LB.

Tuon will thats for sure. And yes her name is now Fortunate or whatever but 12 years of calling her Tuon is a hard habit to break :)

So this is basically another anti-Egwene thread?

 

I'm not sure you can count Rand as technically, he is the ruler of one nation, yet he is also the overlord of another. His role is different, so it's better for this list to reflect the post-Tarmon Gai'din world.

 

Well, the Seanchan are the most dominant power on the planet. Followed by that, would be the Aes Sedai. The Andor-Cairhien-Two-Rivers-Ghealdan (and possibly Saldea) alliance would follow.

[Nygma7]

Direct Political Power Structure, as of ToM.

 

1.) Tuon

1a.) Rand

2.) Egwene

3.) Elayne

4.) Perrin

5.) Mat

 

Mat is the x-factor for me, in that he's married to Tuon. As readers we aren't afforded any real knowledge of what sort of power, if any at all, he gains from that relationship. He's Prince of the Ravens, but for all we know that could mean he gets free coffee on Wednesday.

 

 

That's how my cookie crumbles.

Nice.

 

Tough call between Rand and Tuon. Tuon's empire is in a bit of chaos at the moment, though she has the part on this side of the ocean in firm control. She has the best army with the only integrated channelers, as well as one of the largest populations and certainly the most ordered and disciplined.

 

Against that Rand has Tear, Illian, Arad Doman, and just added the four Borderlands (lost Cairhien). He also has the Aiel, and the Black Tower. Against the Seanchan's greater battle power experience, he can put linked circles and weaves the all-female channelers of the Seanchan can't detect. Lost a huge advantage with the loss of Traveling to the Seanchan. He also can call up Sea-folk ships.

 

Egwene may be too high. While the White Tower wields a ton of "soft power", Aes Sedai have very little hard power. She has a fair amount of influence, but unlike Rand, Tuon, or Elayne, her ability to call up economic or military resources is limited. And given that the White Tower has lost a lot of influence with the split, the coming of the Dragon, the Aiel, the Seanchan, and the merging of various nations, I don't think I'd put her third.

 

Think I'd go:

 

1) Rand - Aiel and Black Tower, even just some of it, push him over Tuon

 

2) Tuon - temporary. Once she regains control of the other side of the ocean, I think she goes back to number one.

 

3) Elayne - hard control of the resources of Andor, Cairhien, Ghealdan, and the revived Two Rivers with a huge technological edge over every other empire. As yet undetermined ties to Saldea and Mayene.

 

4) Egwene - influence over Randland is pretty high normally for an Amyrlin Seat, but lost most influence over lands of the Seanchan and those sworn to Rand. Greater influence over Andor than normal because of Aes Sedai on throne, and Tar Valon itself can call up an army (led by a Great Captain) and demand tithes. Her channelers are pretty much worthless in battles not against the Shadow.

 

5) Perrin - Currently commands armies of Two Rivers, Ghealdan, Mayene, and the Children of the Light. In dire need, can summon wolves. Two Rivers has expanded to become a small nation due to influx of refugees and relative seclusion from the chaos of the rest of the world. Wife is second in line to throne of Saldea.

 

...way down the list

 

6) Mat - command of the Band; unknown influence with Seanchan, but low while he's an avowed enemy of his wife's empire.

 

 

Edit: Forgot the Seafolk!

[gambril]

If the "balance" part of the foretelling is to come true, Egwene and all the other AS will need a major change in attitude, since I have yet to see a single one of them greet the prospect of equality with even the slightest acceptance. I just don't see the Asha'man joining the WT without that foretelling going down the drain. I also don't see them being willing to accept the three oaths knowing how badly it would constrain them in a fight against the Seanchan.

 

We've been given a glimpse of this at the end of TOM with Androl and Pevara. They are going to work together to escape the Black Tower most likely. They are most certainly going to work together and I wouldn't be suprised if Androl becomes Pevara's warder. Men and Women working together, the Light siders at least, to escape will make them respect each other. Also, they are Reds, known to be the hardest and most callous towards men. So yeah, this will go a long way in helping their attitudes towards each other.

 

I'm not sure if the binder the White Tower uses can be used on men. Does anyone know for sure? Regardless, I would barf if the men binded themself in order to become Aes Sedai. Hopefully the binder doesn't work on men. This way when men start becoming Aes Sedai, the women will abandon the criminal binder and use it more towards it's original purpose - to find Darkfriends and Bind Criminals ya know?

[Tollieman]

Just regarding Perrin's influence;

1. Don't count out his attachment to Rand. Being the Dragon's great buddy adds a world of 'influence' above the ordinary.

2. He's ta'veren. Huge help as it turns out (hints that they would NEVER have survived to this point, without it)

3. Consider Morgase's comment to Elayne, words to the effect of 'you don't want to come up against this man'. I think that says a HUGE amount. He influenced a once-great QUEEN of a great nation, to not go up against him!

 

I'd say he's WAY up there, at the same level as Elayne in terms of influence. The Dragons might push her up a bit though, just remembered.

 

I'd say

Rand

Egwene

Elayne

Perrin

 

Mat, on the basis that currently, he has NO influence with the Seanchan (yet), and has lost the benefit of being the only army with Dragons to Elayne, is tied with Fortuona in 4th (and only because of having the same 'benefit' as Perrin's points 1 and 2 as well).

 

(obviously all imo)

 

Of course, if we look at the influence to see the world through the last battle, looking at the prophecies and Min's visions, it's OBVIOUS it's Rand followed by Mat and Perrin together.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Direct Political Power Structure, as of ToM.

 

1.) Tuon

1a.) Rand

2.) Egwene

3.) Elayne

4.) Perrin

5.) Mat

 

Mat is the x-factor for me, in that he's married to Tuon. As readers we aren't afforded any real knowledge of what sort of power, if any at all, he gains from that relationship. He's Prince of the Ravens, but for all we know that could mean he gets free coffee on Wednesday.

 

 

That's how my cookie crumbles.

Nice.

 

Tough call between Rand and Tuon. Tuon's empire is in a bit of chaos at the moment, though she has the part on this side of the ocean in firm control. She has the best army with the only integrated channelers, as well as one of the largest populations and certainly the most ordered and disciplined.

 

 

 

See, for me, it's not a tough call between Rand and Tuon at all. The only time they've met for political undertakings, straight up, 1 vs. 1, face-to-face, Tuon walked away the winner.

 

Tuon: GP: 1, Record: 1-0

Rand: GP: 1, Record: 0-1

 

Tuon above Rand. It's like Jeremy Roenick talking smack to Patrick Roy: PR: "I can't hear him, my Stanley Cup rings are clogging my ears"

[Grandis]

Direct Political Power Structure, as of ToM.

 

1.) Tuon

1a.) Rand

2.) Egwene

3.) Elayne

4.) Perrin

5.) Mat

 

Mat is the x-factor for me, in that he's married to Tuon. As readers we aren't afforded any real knowledge of what sort of power, if any at all, he gains from that relationship. He's Prince of the Ravens, but for all we know that could mean he gets free coffee on Wednesday.

 

 

That's how my cookie crumbles.

Nice.

 

Tough call between Rand and Tuon. Tuon's empire is in a bit of chaos at the moment, though she has the part on this side of the ocean in firm control. She has the best army with the only integrated channelers, as well as one of the largest populations and certainly the most ordered and disciplined.

 

 

 

See, for me, it's not a tough call between Rand and Tuon at all. The only time they've met for political undertakings, straight up, 1 vs. 1, face-to-face, Tuon walked away the winner.

 

Tuon: GP: 1, Record: 1-0

Rand: GP: 1, Record: 0-1

 

Tuon above Rand. It's like Jeremy Roenick talking smack to Patrick Roy: PR: "I can't hear him, my Stanley Cup rings are clogging my ears"

 

But Randhi curb-stomps Dark Rand, and Dark Rand is who Tuon faced

[Mats Spare Hat]

True, Dark-Rand does face Tuon, but until they face each other again, the record still stands

 

Tuon: 1-0

Rand: 0-1

[gambril]

True, Dark-Rand does face Tuon, but until they face each other again, the record still stands

 

Tuon: 1-0

Rand: 0-1

 

I agree. Rand in TOM changes this though. Light Rand is > Tuon. Tuon + Egwene > Light Rand though. Tis' one reason Egwene and Tuon will form an alliance to oppose Rand breaking the seals it would seem - Egwene's going to fail at FOM and try again a second time with Tuon.