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Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

 

Just posted this quote in another thread but I believe its coming from Faile.

 

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Keyword there is tie. Tie does not equal control. Tie equals an alliance, which is what the result of the meeting was.

 

Funny the way I read it the result of the meeting was Perrin swearing fealty to Elayne. He is the Steward of the TR, Elayne's liegeman and has to come if she calls the banners.

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Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

 

Just posted this quote in another thread but I believe its coming from Faile.

 

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Keyword there is tie. Tie does not equal control. Tie equals an alliance, which is what the result of the meeting was.

 

Funny the way I read it the result of the meeting was Perrin swearing fealty to Elayne. He is the Steward of the TR, Elayne's liegeman and has to come if she calls the banners.

 

 

I don't know how you could have read it that way, because that isn't what happens.

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Egwene promised to help Rand and now she's thinking of reneging.

She gained a lot of respect from me in tGS but has lost that respect in ToM.

She needs a good swift kick in the rear, and Elayne too.

Nyneve on the other hand seems to have come around.

Edited by Simo
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Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

 

Just posted this quote in another thread but I believe its coming from Faile.

 

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Keyword there is tie. Tie does not equal control. Tie equals an alliance, which is what the result of the meeting was.

 

 

Funny the way I read it the result of the meeting was Perrin swearing fealty to Elayne. He is the Steward of the TR, Elayne's liegeman and has to come if she calls the banners.

 

 

I don't know how you could have read it that way, because that isn't what happens.

 

So are you suggesting the TR's is now autonomous? He was named Steward of the TR, the TR is part of Andor.

 

Either way this fits better in the Perrin's station thread. I'll be over there.

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Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

 

Just posted this quote in another thread but I believe its coming from Faile.

 

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Keyword there is tie. Tie does not equal control. Tie equals an alliance, which is what the result of the meeting was.

 

 

Funny the way I read it the result of the meeting was Perrin swearing fealty to Elayne. He is the Steward of the TR, Elayne's liegeman and has to come if she calls the banners.

 

 

I don't know how you could have read it that way, because that isn't what happens.

 

So are you suggesting the TR's is now autonomous? He was named Steward of the TR, the TR is part of Andor.

 

Either way this fits better in the Perrin's station thread. I'll be over there.

 

No, I'm suggesting that Perrin didn't swear to Elayne. Because he didn't.

 

He would have to muster the Two Rivers if the Dragon called, not Elayne.

 

He wouldn't have to call out his other forces due to holding an hereditary office in Andor.

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Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

 

Just posted this quote in another thread but I believe its coming from Faile.

 

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Keyword there is tie. Tie does not equal control. Tie equals an alliance, which is what the result of the meeting was.

 

 

Funny the way I read it the result of the meeting was Perrin swearing fealty to Elayne. He is the Steward of the TR, Elayne's liegeman and has to come if she calls the banners.

 

 

I don't know how you could have read it that way, because that isn't what happens.

 

So are you suggesting the TR's is now autonomous? He was named Steward of the TR, the TR is part of Andor.

 

Either way this fits better in the Perrin's station thread. I'll be over there.

 

No, I'm suggesting that Perrin didn't swear to Elayne. Because he didn't.

 

He would have to muster the Two Rivers if the Dragon called, not Elayne.

 

He wouldn't have to call out his other forces due to holding an hereditary office in Andor.

 

Dude think about it. Post TG if Rand isn't around and Elayne has need of Aybara's banners, she has the right to call them. Perrin is ruling the TR's as steward, the TR is part of Andor. He has to answer the call or the TR's is in rebellion.

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Egwene promised to help Rand and now she's thinking of reneging.

She gained a lot of respect from me in tGS but has lost that respect in ToM.

She needs a good swift kick in the rear, and Elayne too.

Nyneve on the other hand seems to have come around.

 

 

egwene has never promised to be the lord dragon's soldier. The lord dragon wants to break the seals which is fine. but he has no idea on what to do after that. Can't expect egwene to simply nod and go along with it.

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I think my opinion in the case Tuon vs. Rand is being misconstrued as saying that Tuon has more resources than Rand?

 

I see political power, in this case, as being separate from the ability to wage war. Rand most likely could crush the Seanchan, but he can't if he wants to win at TG, as per the Finns answer. Thereby it's moot to bring up that Rand has a greater ability to wage war on Tuon, because even though he has that ability it won't get him what he wants. So, based on the sole political encounter the two have with each other, Tuon being the winner, I place her above Rand when it comes to politics.

 

You could say well Rand did this, or has that, Tuon knows this, or can talk to so-and-so - They're both pretty even with the resources at their disposal, IMO, so in a tiebreak I look at 1 v. 1 encounters, and being that Tuon comes out on top in the sole encounter they have, she wins. One might also say yeah well Rand's got a better fighting force, the Aiel are the tits.

 

That and eight bucks will get you a six-pack. Even with everything he has going for him, armies and resources, and knowing I sound like a broken record: In the only political encounter between Rand and Tuon, Tuon won. That doesn't mean she has greater, or better resources at her disposal. It does demonstrate she has the greater force of will, without the benefit of being ta'varen, in being able to stand up to the full directed might of Rand's ta'varen-ness, even in the face of everything he could stand to threaten her with.

 

It's like a drag race, and Rand's pumping nitrous into a v8, while Tuon's sitting in a 4-banger hatchback - and wins because Rand's a crappy driver. Does it mean she has a better car? No. Does it mean she has a win on Rand because she can drive better? Yeah. If that's the only race we've ever seen between the two. than Tuon's the winner, regardless of what Rand has under the hood.

 

That's why in the political realm I place Tuon ahead of Rand.

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Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

 

Just posted this quote in another thread but I believe its coming from Faile.

 

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Keyword there is tie. Tie does not equal control. Tie equals an alliance, which is what the result of the meeting was.

 

 

Funny the way I read it the result of the meeting was Perrin swearing fealty to Elayne. He is the Steward of the TR, Elayne's liegeman and has to come if she calls the banners.

 

 

I don't know how you could have read it that way, because that isn't what happens.

 

So are you suggesting the TR's is now autonomous? He was named Steward of the TR, the TR is part of Andor.

 

Either way this fits better in the Perrin's station thread. I'll be over there.

 

No, I'm suggesting that Perrin didn't swear to Elayne. Because he didn't.

 

He would have to muster the Two Rivers if the Dragon called, not Elayne.

 

He wouldn't have to call out his other forces due to holding an hereditary office in Andor.

 

Dude think about it. Post TG if Rand isn't around and Elayne has need of Aybara's banners, she has the right to call them. Perrin is ruling the TR's as steward, the TR is part of Andor. He has to answer the call or the TR's is in rebellion.

 

"Dude", learn to read. Perrin has to muster the Two Rivers forces if Andor issues the call. What happens if Rand isn't there to do it is an interesting question. But Andor's call does not obligate Perrin to call any other forces he may command (Ghealden or Saldaea, for example). That simply isn't how feudalism worked in our world, and there is no reason for us to believe that is how it would work in the world of tWoT.

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Seems like a lot of modern people with an interest in feudalism (or fantasy where feudalism plays a big role) don't quite understand feudalism, but see it as some sort of military command structure or political party alliance.

I think americans have a disadvantge in grasping the details compared to europeans, as feudalism wasn't a relevant thing in US history, while it has played, and continues to play, a big historical role in much of europe.

 

Maybe an auther writing about feudalistic societies should be required to include a primer in the relevant details so what the characters find natural would be understandable to the readers.

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Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

 

Just posted this quote in another thread but I believe its coming from Faile.

 

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Keyword there is tie. Tie does not equal control. Tie equals an alliance, which is what the result of the meeting was.

 

 

Funny the way I read it the result of the meeting was Perrin swearing fealty to Elayne. He is the Steward of the TR, Elayne's liegeman and has to come if she calls the banners.

 

 

I don't know how you could have read it that way, because that isn't what happens.

 

So are you suggesting the TR's is now autonomous? He was named Steward of the TR, the TR is part of Andor.

 

Either way this fits better in the Perrin's station thread. I'll be over there.

 

No, I'm suggesting that Perrin didn't swear to Elayne. Because he didn't.

 

He would have to muster the Two Rivers if the Dragon called, not Elayne.

 

He wouldn't have to call out his other forces due to holding an hereditary office in Andor.

 

Dude think about it. Post TG if Rand isn't around and Elayne has need of Aybara's banners, she has the right to call them. Perrin is ruling the TR's as steward, the TR is part of Andor. He has to answer the call or the TR's is in rebellion.

 

"Dude", learn to read. Perrin has to muster the Two Rivers forces if Andor issues the call. What happens if Rand isn't there to do it is an interesting question. But Andor's call does not obligate Perrin to call any other forces he may command (Ghealden or Saldaea, for example). That simply isn't how feudalism worked in our world, and there is no reason for us to believe that is how it would work in the world of tWoT.

 

 

Faile's quote implies otherwise..."through Alliandre's oath you gain Ghealdan" no mention of a "tie to" like Saldea. Maybe explain to me how a Steward is not sworn to their Queen while your at it. He is a subject of Andor. Call it an alliance if you will but I believe Ghealdan would be obligated since sworn to Perrin as do many other posters based on these threads. Also what am I reading wrong... your words "He would have to muster the Two Rivers if the Dragon called, not Elayne." You just changed your meaning entirely in the post above "Perrin has to muster the Two Rivers forces if Andor issues the call".

Edited by Suttree
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Faile's quote implies otherwise..."through Alliandre's oath you gain Ghealdan" no mention of a "tie to" like Saldea. Maybe explain to me how a Steward is not sworn to their Queen while your at it. He is a subject of Andor. Call it an alliance if you will but I believe Ghealdan would be obligated since sworn to Perrin as do many other posters based on these threads. Also what am I reading wrong... your words "He would have to muster the Two Rivers if the Dragon called, not Elayne." You just changed your meaning entirely in the post above "Perrin has to muster the Two Rivers forces if Andor issues the call".

 

*sigh*

 

You have a flawed understanding of how feudal obligations work. As several posters have pointed out, with actual examples from history, just because a lord was subject to a feudal obligation in one context does NOT mean he is subject to that obligation in all contexts. England didn't go to war at the call of the King of France, even if Normandy did and the Duke of Normandy and the King of England happened to be the same person.

 

If Andor called the Two Rivers to war (which it doesn't do directly; it would have to do so through the feudal lord of the Two Rivers. It is Rand's likely absence that makes it an interesting question), Perrin and his successors would in fact be obligated to muster his forces from the Twp Rivers. That DOES NOT mean that they have to muster forces from other lands they happen to hold. (Do you imagine that Faile has to send levies from Tyr? What about her obligation to the crown of Saldaea?)

 

Of course, as long as the Steward in the Two Rivers was Perrin himself, he very likely WOULD bring everyone he could. That's all that Faile was suggesting. But he would not be obligated to, and as his successors rule over time, without the personal ties that Perrin has, it is likely that they would find reasons not to visit the sufferings and depredations of war on a Ghealdenian populace that has no dog in Andor's fights.

 

As to how a Steward isn't sworn to the Queen, I don't know how else to explain it...a steward isn't sworn to the Queen. A steward of a lord is sworn to that lord, not that lord's queen. Again, this is just how feudalism works.

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I think my opinion in the case Tuon vs. Rand is being misconstrued as saying that Tuon has more resources than Rand?

 

I see political power, in this case, as being separate from the ability to wage war. Rand most likely could crush the Seanchan, but he can't if he wants to win at TG, as per the Finns answer. Thereby it's moot to bring up that Rand has a greater ability to wage war on Tuon, because even though he has that ability it won't get him what he wants. So, based on the sole political encounter the two have with each other, Tuon being the winner, I place her above Rand when it comes to politics.

 

You could say well Rand did this, or has that, Tuon knows this, or can talk to so-and-so - They're both pretty even with the resources at their disposal, IMO, so in a tiebreak I look at 1 v. 1 encounters, and being that Tuon comes out on top in the sole encounter they have, she wins. One might also say yeah well Rand's got a better fighting force, the Aiel are the tits.

 

That and eight bucks will get you a six-pack. Even with everything he has going for him, armies and resources, and knowing I sound like a broken record: In the only political encounter between Rand and Tuon, Tuon won. That doesn't mean she has greater, or better resources at her disposal. It does demonstrate she has the greater force of will, without the benefit of being ta'varen, in being able to stand up to the full directed might of Rand's ta'varen-ness, even in the face of everything he could stand to threaten her with.

 

It's like a drag race, and Rand's pumping nitrous into a v8, while Tuon's sitting in a 4-banger hatchback - and wins because Rand's a crappy driver. Does it mean she has a better car? No. Does it mean she has a win on Rand because she can drive better? Yeah. If that's the only race we've ever seen between the two. than Tuon's the winner, regardless of what Rand has under the hood.

 

That's why in the political realm I place Tuon ahead of Rand.

 

What I'm saying is you misconstrue the point of this thread. The question was "Who can tell Egwene to screw off and be powerful enough not to fear the consequences?" and then use that criteria (i.e. military, economic, One Power, and other resources) to rank who has the most political power. With those criteria Rand comes out on top by far. He has the Aiel, Cairhien until recently (and he could call on Elayne as an ally with Cairhien and Andor), Tear, Illian, the Borderlands, a good chunk of the Black Tower, Arad Doman, Mayene, Perrin's army, the Sea Folk, and probably more that I am not even thinking about.

 

Tuon has Altara, Amadacia, the damane. That's it. She can currently expect no help from the Seanchan mainland. And who do you think the rest of the lands would more likely ally with? Particularly the White Tower and their channelers?

 

Rand very obviously wields much more influence and ability to influence in Randland than Tuon does.

 

And again, what did Tuon "win" against Rand? She resisted his ta'veren influence. Shows strength of will, I'll give you that. But keep in mind that Rand was not asking her to subject herself and the Seanchan to him. He didn't ask her to release all the damane. He just wanted to become allies so they could fight the Last Battle together. Tuon said no. She didn't gain any kind of advantage or concession from Rand. All she did was say no to a treaty that would have made the most powerful man in the world (in a variety of meanings) an ally in the fight against the Shadow (a decision that came thiiiiiis close to getting her people exterminated in tGS). So congrats to her for that I guess.

 

Is Tuon likely a better politician and manuveurer than Rand (at least without LTT's help)? Probably. It doesn't mean that she has more political power or influence than he has which was the point of this thread.

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Faile's quote implies otherwise..."through Alliandre's oath you gain Ghealdan" no mention of a "tie to" like Saldea. Maybe explain to me how a Steward is not sworn to their Queen while your at it. He is a subject of Andor. Call it an alliance if you will but I believe Ghealdan would be obligated since sworn to Perrin as do many other posters based on these threads. Also what am I reading wrong... your words "He would have to muster the Two Rivers if the Dragon called, not Elayne." You just changed your meaning entirely in the post above "Perrin has to muster the Two Rivers forces if Andor issues the call".

 

*sigh*

 

You have a flawed understanding of how feudal obligations work. As several posters have pointed out, with actual examples from history, just because a lord was subject to a feudal obligation in one context does NOT mean he is subject to that obligation in all contexts. England didn't go to war at the call of the King of France, even if Normandy did and the Duke of Normandy and the King of England happened to be the same person.

 

If Andor called the Two Rivers to war (which it doesn't do directly; it would have to do so through the feudal lord of the Two Rivers. It is Rand's likely absence that makes it an interesting question), Perrin and his successors would in fact be obligated to muster his forces from the Twp Rivers. That DOES NOT mean that they have to muster forces from other lands they happen to hold. (Do you imagine that Faile has to send levies from Tyr? What about her obligation to the crown of Saldaea?)

 

Of course, as long as the Steward in the Two Rivers was Perrin himself, he very likely WOULD bring everyone he could. That's all that Faile was suggesting. But he would not be obligated to, and as his successors rule over time, without the personal ties that Perrin has, it is likely that they would find reasons not to visit the sufferings and depredations of war on a Ghealdenian populace that has no dog in Andor's fights.

 

As to how a Steward isn't sworn to the Queen, I don't know how else to explain it...a steward isn't sworn to the Queen. A steward of a lord is sworn to that lord, not that lord's queen. Again, this is just how feudalism works.

 

Ok I am listening, more than willing to admit I have a faulty understanding of the situation if that is the case. So if a Steward isn't sworn to a ruler, as Steward of Tear Darlin was not sworn to the Lord Dragon?

Edited by Suttree
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Faile's quote implies otherwise..."through Alliandre's oath you gain Ghealdan" no mention of a "tie to" like Saldea. Maybe explain to me how a Steward is not sworn to their Queen while your at it. He is a subject of Andor. Call it an alliance if you will but I believe Ghealdan would be obligated since sworn to Perrin as do many other posters based on these threads. Also what am I reading wrong... your words "He would have to muster the Two Rivers if the Dragon called, not Elayne." You just changed your meaning entirely in the post above "Perrin has to muster the Two Rivers forces if Andor issues the call".

 

*sigh*

 

You have a flawed understanding of how feudal obligations work. As several posters have pointed out, with actual examples from history, just because a lord was subject to a feudal obligation in one context does NOT mean he is subject to that obligation in all contexts. England didn't go to war at the call of the King of France, even if Normandy did and the Duke of Normandy and the King of England happened to be the same person.

 

If Andor called the Two Rivers to war (which it doesn't do directly; it would have to do so through the feudal lord of the Two Rivers. It is Rand's likely absence that makes it an interesting question), Perrin and his successors would in fact be obligated to muster his forces from the Twp Rivers. That DOES NOT mean that they have to muster forces from other lands they happen to hold. (Do you imagine that Faile has to send levies from Tyr? What about her obligation to the crown of Saldaea?)

 

Of course, as long as the Steward in the Two Rivers was Perrin himself, he very likely WOULD bring everyone he could. That's all that Faile was suggesting. But he would not be obligated to, and as his successors rule over time, without the personal ties that Perrin has, it is likely that they would find reasons not to visit the sufferings and depredations of war on a Ghealdenian populace that has no dog in Andor's fights.

 

As to how a Steward isn't sworn to the Queen, I don't know how else to explain it...a steward isn't sworn to the Queen. A steward of a lord is sworn to that lord, not that lord's queen. Again, this is just how feudalism works.

 

Ok I am listening, more than willing to admit I have a faulty understanding of the situation if that is the case. So if a Steward isn't sworn to a ruler, as Steward of Tear Darlin was not sworn to the Lord Dragon?

 

Darlin was Steward of Tear. If Andor had a Steward, that person would be sworn to Elayne. If a particular Tairen HIgh Lord had a steward (as in fact they certainly would, I just don't know if we have seen any on-screen), that steward would by sworn to the High Lord, not to Rand.

 

This sort of indirect obligation is how feudalism works. I'm a peasant, who owes fealty to my local lord. That lord owes fealty to a higher, and he to a higher.

 

Conversely, the lords owe protection downward. The royal house of Andor, obviously, has failed in this obligation.

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Faile's quote implies otherwise..."through Alliandre's oath you gain Ghealdan" no mention of a "tie to" like Saldea. Maybe explain to me how a Steward is not sworn to their Queen while your at it. He is a subject of Andor. Call it an alliance if you will but I believe Ghealdan would be obligated since sworn to Perrin as do many other posters based on these threads. Also what am I reading wrong... your words "He would have to muster the Two Rivers if the Dragon called, not Elayne." You just changed your meaning entirely in the post above "Perrin has to muster the Two Rivers forces if Andor issues the call".

 

*sigh*

 

You have a flawed understanding of how feudal obligations work. As several posters have pointed out, with actual examples from history, just because a lord was subject to a feudal obligation in one context does NOT mean he is subject to that obligation in all contexts. England didn't go to war at the call of the King of France, even if Normandy did and the Duke of Normandy and the King of England happened to be the same person.

 

If Andor called the Two Rivers to war (which it doesn't do directly; it would have to do so through the feudal lord of the Two Rivers. It is Rand's likely absence that makes it an interesting question), Perrin and his successors would in fact be obligated to muster his forces from the Twp Rivers. That DOES NOT mean that they have to muster forces from other lands they happen to hold. (Do you imagine that Faile has to send levies from Tyr? What about her obligation to the crown of Saldaea?)

 

Of course, as long as the Steward in the Two Rivers was Perrin himself, he very likely WOULD bring everyone he could. That's all that Faile was suggesting. But he would not be obligated to, and as his successors rule over time, without the personal ties that Perrin has, it is likely that they would find reasons not to visit the sufferings and depredations of war on a Ghealdenian populace that has no dog in Andor's fights.

 

As to how a Steward isn't sworn to the Queen, I don't know how else to explain it...a steward isn't sworn to the Queen. A steward of a lord is sworn to that lord, not that lord's queen. Again, this is just how feudalism works.

 

Ok I am listening, more than willing to admit I have a faulty understanding of the situation if that is the case. So if a Steward isn't sworn to a ruler, as Steward of Tear Darlin was not sworn to the Lord Dragon?

 

Darlin was Steward of Tear. If Andor had a Steward, that person would be sworn to Elayne. If a particular Tairen HIgh Lord had a steward (as in fact they certainly would, I just don't know if we have seen any on-screen), that steward would by sworn to the High Lord, not to Rand.

 

This sort of indirect obligation is how feudalism works. I'm a peasant, who owes fealty to my local lord. That lord owes fealty to a higher, and he to a higher.

 

Conversely, the lords owe protection downward. The royal house of Andor, obviously, has failed in this obligation.

 

Ok I get your point. But why then in ToM when negotiating is it said and I quote...

 

ToM A TEaching Chamber

 

"Faile said again "you gain a powerful province to the west. Perrin , as your ally and subject lord, will agree to marshal troops in your defense. He will also call upon his sworn monarchs to your allegiance"

Edited by Suttree
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Note that it is ALLY and subject lord. Faile is proposing both a resolution to the Two Rivers issue AND a grand alliance. Perrin will be, directly or indirectly, a subject lord of the Two Rivers. He will also be an ally, and call his sworn monarchs into the alliance.

 

If "subject lord" covered all that, there would be no need to say, "ally and subject lord."

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Note that it is ALLY and subject lord. Faile is proposing both a resolution to the Two Rivers issue AND a grand alliance. Perrin will be, directly or indirectly, a subject lord of the Two Rivers. He will also be an ally, and call his sworn monarchs into the alliance.

 

If "subject lord" covered all that, there would be no need to say, "ally and subject lord."

 

So the subject lord means his allegiance is to Rand and not the throne? Seems they are saying Ghealdan would be expected to bring troops so Elayne does get at least a bit of a foothold into his resources. I'm not arguing, just really trying to wrap my head around it...thanks mate.

Edited by Suttree
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Elayne would have the support of Ghealden in a war, as an ally, not a subject.

 

Again, I really think the obvious real-world correlate is England and France. The Kings of England held significant lands in France throughout much of the Middle Ages. That most emphatically does not mean that England marched to war at France's call. Quite the contrary, in fact.

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There are 2 suggestions in that conversation.

1) Perrin (as in Perrin the person, not Perrin in his capacity as lord this, king that, steward something) would bring everythinghe could if asked to.

2) As steward T2R becomes a powerful province gained that has been lost for a long time.

 

Lastly of course is the tie to Saldaea, which noone has misunderstood as far as I have seen.

 

Also, remember at the time of Failes utterance, the suggestion was that Perrin be made High Lord - not steward under Rand (iirc), so Failes comments of being a subject lord was if Perrin was made High Lord of T2R - in which case the situation would have been completely different.

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I'm not sure that this is relevant to the thread but i think most of the blame for the mixing of ashaman and aes'sedai is mostly the white towers fault the ashaman are hostile beacuse of the way the white tower has treated male channelers in the past(understandibly) however concidering the white towers current boss egwene i can in no way see the joining of the two egwene cares about nothing but making sure that the white tower gets to control everything which i think is he worst possible scenerio i would personally LOVE to see the WT influence PLUMMET to teach them some humility

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To further discuss Egwene and her tower ego, can anyone explain WHY? Reading from Egwene's point of view, her unwavering loyalty to the tower doesn't make any sense. Up until two years ago, she didn't even know it existed past stories, and now she's willing to die for it? Why? What has the White Tower done to or for her that would give her such an epiphany? From the very beginning, she's been surrounded by mean, manipulated, and in dozens of cases, literally EVIL Aes Sedai. She knows that the WT has almost none of the near-omnipotent qualities that the legends claim they have, they are actually pretty weak, and know next to nothing that they did a few thousand years ago. For that matter, there is not a single shred of evidence that any one of the WT's plans or ideas is anything short of moronic.

 

I think Jordan's greatest failing as far as plot has got to be Egwene's unconditional love for the tower. Nyneave gets it a bit as well, but she knows to draw a line at right and wrong, and has even said (I believe) that joining that tower took a back seat to saving the world. Or to Lan, for that matter. Egwene is a true blooded fanatic, however, and it was never thoroughly understood. I think this is probably the greatest argument for her being under Compulsion, but that's an argument for another day. Other than the tower, however, is her total 180 in terms of her relationship with Rand. Anyone else think it was odd that in book 2 and 3, she devoted her life to him (even her Accepted testing revolved around him), and then suddenly, book 4 rolls around and she loses every ounce of interest? I'm not complaining... I'm just saying, she's less rational than a rock.

Edited by CoonDawg
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