Oh Egwene Thoust Ego Is So Big

[Mandro]

I'm not sure that this is relevant to the thread but i think most of the blame for the mixing of ashaman and aes'sedai is mostly the white towers fault the ashaman are hostile beacuse of the way the white tower has treated male channelers in the past(understandibly) however concidering the white towers current boss egwene i can in no way see the joining of the two egwene cares about nothing but making sure that the white tower gets to control everything which i think is he worst possible scenerio i would personally LOVE to see the WT influence PLUMMET to teach them some humility

 

Yeahp. I don't recall a single conversation about the AS and the AM (from the AS point of view) that didn't treat the AM as awaiting slaves who needed to be bonded and controlled. Logain, when he bonded said "I'm sorry AS this is how we were taught" and then kissed her. Just that little twist on how to bond man to woman vs woman to man demonstrates a sort of sentimentality that the AM have that the AS lack.

 

Exactly how many great cities are there in westerworld? And Caemlyn one of the greatest of great cities are shocked SHOCKED at a second AS being present in Caemlyn seperate from the appearance of the false dragon, and then all of the other AS were shut up in the royal palace, and the rest of the AS are holed up in their Ivory, I mean white, tower.

 

The AS as depicted are horribly derelict in their duties, why are there so many yellows in Tar Valon? Why aren't they spread out across the lands offering their abilities to those who don't have them? Why are the browns only researching in the tower library? Why does the WT that doesn't take part in the world think they can negotiate all treaties? The only semi-rational Ajah are the blues, at least to accomplish their goals they have to actually deal with real people. The reds have no purpose, the Greens don't know basic tactics. They aren't the sword against the shadow, they are RPG players who can't be bothered with excessive sunlight.

 

(sorry for the rant, but egwene does that to me, like my ex girlfriend who would describe me as her "friend." If I was just her friend, then I wonder what kinda kinky stuff she did with her boyfriend)

[b3arz3rg3r]

It's inevitable that Egwene will lose authority in the future. The question is whether the Aes Sedai will lose that power all together or whether they accept to share their power with the men. Logain and the Asha'man have no reason to submit to her. She'll have to accept them as equals or watch as the BT becomes as strong as the WT and the two neutralize each other's influence. Cause that is what will happen when the world can play off the BT against the WT.

Besides, Aes Sedai bonding Asha'man and the other way around is the way of the future. Male and female channelers share too much in terms of life expectancy and worldview for those kinds of pairings not to become the dominant kind of bond. And once there is a bonded pair both are effectively as much or as little under the control of the WT as they would be of the BT.

 

Personally I think the WT losing a lot of their political power would be a good thing. The non-channellers should govern themselves with as little Aes Sedai or Asha'man involvement as possible. The ideal scenario would be in my opinion BT and WT remaining separate for a time with the majority of Asha'man being bonded to Aes Sedai. So that they can effectively do nothing as an organisation unless both sides agree with each other. Which would only happen in the rarest of cases. Of course that's no permanent solution, but atleast until the notion that Aes Sedai should be allowed to meddle in politics has become extinct.

 

Ultimately I envision the future role of the channellers as an apolitical organisation. They sell economical services to the nations and individuals and offer humanitarian offices for free. So if someone wants a bridge built or wants access to Travelling or consulting wether judicial or of any other sort they'll pay for it and on the other hand they help with natural disasters and sickness essentially for free. The WT should only be the training grounds and the seat of the administration, but the channellers should be spread across the entire world with regional outposts if they don't just live among the general populace to prevent the channelers from losing touch with the world outside Tar Valon. War or any other sort of armed conflict immediately blacklists cities or nations for any channeler services except humanitarian for a number of years.

[CoonDawg]

Actually, the BT has a huge advantage, powerwise, over the WT. Don't get me wrong, the WT has the resources, reknown, and armies that the BT does not. However, they also have LTT/Rand to teach them things long forgotten. Most of the rediscovery of Saidar is coming from Rand and Friends. There is really no way to bring back the past without someone who was from there, like, say, Lanfear. What are the odds that Egwene is going to hold meetings with Forsaken to teach them what they've forgotten? Almost nill.

 

Even if Rand was willing to teach Egwene what he knew (and I doubt he is), he can't. Saidar and Saidin are far too contrasting. In fact, Rand told Egwene how to make a gateway. As one of the Forsaken (forget who, Lanfear maybe?) explained, had she even TRIED to perform a gateway like male channelers do, she would have been killed in the process.

 

So, in terms of knowledge and power, The Male Channellers actually have a huge advantage. How long that will last, I don't know, perhaps only a few hundred years. But more than enough for the Asha'Man to put themselves in strong contention.

 

Or, maybe they'll all just get along? Either way, The White Tower is about to lose a huge amount of influence after the coming meeting. The Black Tower will rise again. (Cue pic of Confederate flag.)

[Mandro]

Actually, the BT has a huge advantage, powerwise, over the WT. Don't get me wrong, the WT has the resources, reknown, and armies that the BT does not. However, they also have LTT/Rand to teach them things long forgotten. Most of the rediscovery of Saidar is coming from Rand and Friends. There is really no way to bring back the past without someone who was from there, like, say, Lanfear. What are the odds that Egwene is going to hold meetings with Forsaken to teach them what they've forgotten? Almost nill.

 

Even if Rand was willing to teach Egwene what he knew (and I doubt he is), he can't. Saidar and Saidin are far too contrasting. In fact, Rand told Egwene how to make a gateway. As one of the Forsaken (forget who, Lanfear maybe?) explained, had she even TRIED to perform a gateway like male channelers do, she would have been killed in the process.

 

So, in terms of knowledge and power, The Male Channellers actually have a huge advantage. How long that will last, I don't know, perhaps only a few hundred years. But more than enough for the Asha'Man to put themselves in strong contention.

 

Or, maybe they'll all just get along? Either way, The White Tower is about to lose a huge amount of influence after the coming meeting. The Black Tower will rise again. (Cue pic of Confederate flag.)

 

actually, I think that the BT has an advantage, not because of Rand, but because of two things. Purpose, and the fact that the training is kinda a free for all, promoting autodidactic education. They learn how to make stuff go boom so that they can be weapons, but then they are promoted to use the power and to test out things that the WT thinks are forbidden. All frontiers are won with a bold acknowledgement of risk, but for the AS it's more important to stay whole for the glory of the WT. Why are the most progressive (even without mogy) AS are the 3 who went out on their own, not to mention all of the stuff that Moiraine seems to know that doesn't make much sense compared to what novices and accepted are allowed to learn. Meanwhile, 3K years of practice, the AS never learned how to cure stilling, over 3K years the AS never researched the nature of madness, instead they took the easy path and just castrated the men, over 3K years they never tried to keep the knowledge of ter angreal, angreal and sa'angreal, over 3K years, the world broke, the nations went to war, and they hid.

 

How many things have the AM found without any of the divine guidance of the WT?

 

Actually, LTT has to remember something of the creation of angreal and sa'angreal. He might not be able to teach Elayne anything, but maybe Niald, even if LTT didn't have the talent, he had to have a familiarity.

 

Random thing, How many random strips of leather did Androl leave all over westerworld? Farmwife walking along and finds this well tanned piece of leather, cut in perfect lines and thinks "OH! I can use this to make a riding crop for my husband!" IYKWIMAITYD :)

[muddymess]

actually, I think that the BT has an advantage, not because of Rand, but because of two things. Purpose, and the fact that the training is kinda a free for all, promoting autodidactic education. They learn how to make stuff go boom so that they can be weapons, but then they are promoted to use the power and to test out things that the WT thinks are forbidden. All frontiers are won with a bold acknowledgement of risk, but for the AS it's more important to stay whole for the glory of the WT. Why are the most progressive (even without mogy) AS are the 3 who went out on their own, not to mention all of the stuff that Moiraine seems to know that doesn't make much sense compared to what novices and accepted are allowed to learn. Meanwhile, 3K years of practice, the AS never learned how to cure stilling, over 3K years the AS never researched the nature of madness, instead they took the easy path and just castrated the men, over 3K years they never tried to keep the knowledge of ter angreal, angreal and sa'angreal, over 3K years, the world broke, the nations went to war, and they hid.

 

How many things have the AM found without any of the divine guidance of the WT?

 

Actually, LTT has to remember something of the creation of angreal and sa'angreal. He might not be able to teach Elayne anything, but maybe Niald, even if LTT didn't have the talent, he had to have a familiarity.

 

Random thing, How many random strips of leather did Androl leave all over westerworld? Farmwife walking along and finds this well tanned piece of leather, cut in perfect lines and thinks "OH! I can use this to make a riding crop for my husband!" IYKWIMAITYD :)

I think you're spot on here. The AS have lost their true purpose and have become a solely political machine.

[MasterAblar]

Actually, the BT has a huge advantage, powerwise, over the WT. Don't get me wrong, the WT has the resources, reknown, and armies that the BT does not. However, they also have LTT/Rand to teach them things long forgotten. Most of the rediscovery of Saidar is coming from Rand and Friends. There is really no way to bring back the past without someone who was from there, like, say, Lanfear. What are the odds that Egwene is going to hold meetings with Forsaken to teach them what they've forgotten? Almost nill.

 

Even if Rand was willing to teach Egwene what he knew (and I doubt he is), he can't. Saidar and Saidin are far too contrasting. In fact, Rand told Egwene how to make a gateway. As one of the Forsaken (forget who, Lanfear maybe?) explained, had she even TRIED to perform a gateway like male channelers do, she would have been killed in the process.

 

So, in terms of knowledge and power, The Male Channellers actually have a huge advantage. How long that will last, I don't know, perhaps only a few hundred years. But more than enough for the Asha'Man to put themselves in strong contention.

 

Or, maybe they'll all just get along? Either way, The White Tower is about to lose a huge amount of influence after the coming meeting. The Black Tower will rise again. (Cue pic of Confederate flag.)

 

actually, I think that the BT has an advantage, not because of Rand, but because of two things. Purpose, and the fact that the training is kinda a free for all, promoting autodidactic education. They learn how to make stuff go boom so that they can be weapons, but then they are promoted to use the power and to test out things that the WT thinks are forbidden. All frontiers are won with a bold acknowledgement of risk, but for the AS it's more important to stay whole for the glory of the WT. Why are the most progressive (even without mogy) AS are the 3 who went out on their own, not to mention all of the stuff that Moiraine seems to know that doesn't make much sense compared to what novices and accepted are allowed to learn. Meanwhile, 3K years of practice, the AS never learned how to cure stilling, over 3K years the AS never researched the nature of madness, instead they took the easy path and just castrated the men, over 3K years they never tried to keep the knowledge of ter angreal, angreal and sa'angreal, over 3K years, the world broke, the nations went to war, and they hid.

 

How many things have the AM found without any of the divine guidance of the WT?

 

Actually, LTT has to remember something of the creation of angreal and sa'angreal. He might not be able to teach Elayne anything, but maybe Niald, even if LTT didn't have the talent, he had to have a familiarity.

 

I'm no fan of the aes sedai and the WT, however I do have to point out 2 things. First: in the AOL, no one knew, or believed, it was possible to heal severing so it's not like the aes sedai had any reason to doubt that. Second: the aes sedai actually did try to figure out a way to heal madness or stop the taint, but they gave up after a while, having discovered nothing.

 

Nevertheless, I do believe that the WT's problem is that they are stuck in their traditions and beliefs which they dare not question, and that goes from anything to do with channeling to how the aes sedai act (cold and emotionless). This is where I think the BT has a huge advantage over the WT. The asha'man have absolutely nothing to stop them from creating as they go, no taboos, no restrictions. Also the fact that there are no ajah like divisions among the asha'man, or at least there won't be once the dark asha'man are thrown out. This means the asha'man are far more united than the aes sedai, especially considering the turmoil that the WT has just gone through.

 

Of course there is also, as has been said, the advantage of Rand knowing a bunch of forgotten weaves. And Rand is, let's not forget, the first asha'man, just as he is the last aes sedai (AOL type aes sedai that is). I for one really hope he is going to take a part in the future of the BT. The good thing about the asha'man too is that they can forge a completely new relation to the common people, once people learn (and accept) that the taint is gone. Right now the asha'man are sort of scary to everybody, but since they are no longer doomed to go mad, hopefully they can be a lot less solemn and all. Plus some asha'man (like Grady and Neald) have already been around common people a lot. Another thing to consider is that a lot of the asha'man are married unlike the aes sedai, so people will probably be able to relate to them better. I'm hoping that the asha'man will be able to truly live up to their name and eventually get a far better reputation then the aes sedai.

 

Yet another advantage that the asha'man have, is that they are the only men who know how to channel. Which means if any aiel, or seafolk, or even seanchan if they come around, wants to channel they have to join the BT. This allows stronger and more trusting ties among men channelers from the different cultures.

 

As far as relations with the WT goes, I think the BT is going to stay completely separate from it. So while bonding between asha'man and aes sedai will be allowed, it probably won't be encouraged. After all whoever ends up leading the asha'man (hopefully Logain) is going to want to stop the aes sedai from having any influence over the BT (this is also why I believe the asha'man are going to take care of any darkfriends among themselves without any outside aid, just like the aes sedai). Which also makes me wonder how long Elayne's "you still are a part of my country" is going to last. I mean not only is Logain not going to accept to be apart of any country out of pride if nothing else, but there is also the fact that Elayne is aes sedai and she has guards going around the BT regularly. I don't see how Logain is not going to quickly say enough to Elayne and make it clear that the BT is completely independent from Andor. And honestly if Elayne has any common sense, she will back off. Andor's chances against the BT are close to 0 and it's not like she is losing anything anyway.

[Mandro]

actually, I think that the BT has an advantage, not because of Rand, but because of two things. Purpose, and the fact that the training is kinda a free for all, promoting autodidactic education. They learn how to make stuff go boom so that they can be weapons, but then they are promoted to use the power and to test out things that the WT thinks are forbidden. All frontiers are won with a bold acknowledgement of risk, but for the AS it's more important to stay whole for the glory of the WT. Why are the most progressive (even without mogy) AS are the 3 who went out on their own, not to mention all of the stuff that Moiraine seems to know that doesn't make much sense compared to what novices and accepted are allowed to learn. Meanwhile, 3K years of practice, the AS never learned how to cure stilling, over 3K years the AS never researched the nature of madness, instead they took the easy path and just castrated the men, over 3K years they never tried to keep the knowledge of ter angreal, angreal and sa'angreal, over 3K years, the world broke, the nations went to war, and they hid.

 

How many things have the AM found without any of the divine guidance of the WT?

 

Actually, LTT has to remember something of the creation of angreal and sa'angreal. He might not be able to teach Elayne anything, but maybe Niald, even if LTT didn't have the talent, he had to have a familiarity.

 

Random thing, How many random strips of leather did Androl leave all over westerworld? Farmwife walking along and finds this well tanned piece of leather, cut in perfect lines and thinks "OH! I can use this to make a riding crop for my husband!" IYKWIMAITYD :)

I think you're spot on here. The AS have lost their true purpose and have become a solely political machine.

 

For a moment I thought you were talking about androl wanting to promote "kink."

[muddymess]

actually, I think that the BT has an advantage, not because of Rand, but because of two things. Purpose, and the fact that the training is kinda a free for all, promoting autodidactic education. They learn how to make stuff go boom so that they can be weapons, but then they are promoted to use the power and to test out things that the WT thinks are forbidden. All frontiers are won with a bold acknowledgement of risk, but for the AS it's more important to stay whole for the glory of the WT. Why are the most progressive (even without mogy) AS are the 3 who went out on their own, not to mention all of the stuff that Moiraine seems to know that doesn't make much sense compared to what novices and accepted are allowed to learn. Meanwhile, 3K years of practice, the AS never learned how to cure stilling, over 3K years the AS never researched the nature of madness, instead they took the easy path and just castrated the men, over 3K years they never tried to keep the knowledge of ter angreal, angreal and sa'angreal, over 3K years, the world broke, the nations went to war, and they hid.

 

How many things have the AM found without any of the divine guidance of the WT?

 

Actually, LTT has to remember something of the creation of angreal and sa'angreal. He might not be able to teach Elayne anything, but maybe Niald, even if LTT didn't have the talent, he had to have a familiarity.

 

Random thing, How many random strips of leather did Androl leave all over westerworld? Farmwife walking along and finds this well tanned piece of leather, cut in perfect lines and thinks "OH! I can use this to make a riding crop for my husband!" IYKWIMAITYD :)

I think you're spot on here. The AS have lost their true purpose and have become a solely political machine.

 

For a moment I thought you were talking about androl wanting to promote "kink."

That's probably correct too, Androl is a strange one... d:

[Mandro]

"Yet another advantage that the asha'man have, is that they are the only men who know how to channel. Which means if any aiel, or seafolk, or even seanchan if they come around, wants to channel they have to join the BT. This allows stronger and more trusting ties among men channelers from the different cultures."

 

That is a good point, that is something else I noticed. Rand spread across the common westlands that men who can channel should not be punished, but welcomed at the BT, he even made that a point when talking with the sea people, but he hasn't said the same thing to the Aiel, I don't like that that was left out.

[Mandro]

Actually, the BT has a huge advantage, powerwise, over the WT. Don't get me wrong, the WT has the resources, reknown, and armies that the BT does not. However, they also have LTT/Rand to teach them things long forgotten. Most of the rediscovery of Saidar is coming from Rand and Friends. There is really no way to bring back the past without someone who was from there, like, say, Lanfear. What are the odds that Egwene is going to hold meetings with Forsaken to teach them what they've forgotten? Almost nill.

 

Even if Rand was willing to teach Egwene what he knew (and I doubt he is), he can't. Saidar and Saidin are far too contrasting. In fact, Rand told Egwene how to make a gateway. As one of the Forsaken (forget who, Lanfear maybe?) explained, had she even TRIED to perform a gateway like male channelers do, she would have been killed in the process.

 

So, in terms of knowledge and power, The Male Channellers actually have a huge advantage. How long that will last, I don't know, perhaps only a few hundred years. But more than enough for the Asha'Man to put themselves in strong contention.

 

Or, maybe they'll all just get along? Either way, The White Tower is about to lose a huge amount of influence after the coming meeting. The Black Tower will rise again. (Cue pic of Confederate flag.)

 

actually, I think that the BT has an advantage, not because of Rand, but because of two things. Purpose, and the fact that the training is kinda a free for all, promoting autodidactic education. They learn how to make stuff go boom so that they can be weapons, but then they are promoted to use the power and to test out things that the WT thinks are forbidden. All frontiers are won with a bold acknowledgement of risk, but for the AS it's more important to stay whole for the glory of the WT. Why are the most progressive (even without mogy) AS are the 3 who went out on their own, not to mention all of the stuff that Moiraine seems to know that doesn't make much sense compared to what novices and accepted are allowed to learn. Meanwhile, 3K years of practice, the AS never learned how to cure stilling, over 3K years the AS never researched the nature of madness, instead they took the easy path and just castrated the men, over 3K years they never tried to keep the knowledge of ter angreal, angreal and sa'angreal, over 3K years, the world broke, the nations went to war, and they hid.

 

How many things have the AM found without any of the divine guidance of the WT?

 

Actually, LTT has to remember something of the creation of angreal and sa'angreal. He might not be able to teach Elayne anything, but maybe Niald, even if LTT didn't have the talent, he had to have a familiarity.

 

I'm no fan of the aes sedai and the WT, however I do have to point out 2 things. First: in the AOL, no one knew, or believed, it was possible to heal severing so it's not like the aes sedai had any reason to doubt that. Second: the aes sedai actually did try to figure out a way to heal madness or stop the taint, but they gave up after a while, having discovered nothing.

 

Nevertheless, I do believe that the WT's problem is that they are stuck in their traditions and beliefs which they dare not question, and that goes from anything to do with channeling to how the aes sedai act (cold and emotionless). This is where I think the BT has a huge advantage over the WT. The asha'man have absolutely nothing to stop them from creating as they go, no taboos, no restrictions. Also the fact that there are no ajah like divisions among the asha'man, or at least there won't be once the dark asha'man are thrown out. This means the asha'man are far more united than the aes sedai, especially considering the turmoil that the WT has just gone through.

 

Of course there is also, as has been said, the advantage of Rand knowing a bunch of forgotten weaves. And Rand is, let's not forget, the first asha'man, just as he is the last aes sedai (AOL type aes sedai that is). I for one really hope he is going to take a part in the future of the BT. The good thing about the asha'man too is that they can forge a completely new relation to the common people, once people learn (and accept) that the taint is gone. Right now the asha'man are sort of scary to everybody, but since they are no longer doomed to go mad, hopefully they can be a lot less solemn and all. Plus some asha'man (like Grady and Neald) have already been around common people a lot. Another thing to consider is that a lot of the asha'man are married unlike the aes sedai, so people will probably be able to relate to them better. I'm hoping that the asha'man will be able to truly live up to their name and eventually get a far better reputation then the aes sedai.

 

Yet another advantage that the asha'man have, is that they are the only men who know how to channel. Which means if any aiel, or seafolk, or even seanchan if they come around, wants to channel they have to join the BT. This allows stronger and more trusting ties among men channelers from the different cultures.

 

As far as relations with the WT goes, I think the BT is going to stay completely separate from it. So while bonding between asha'man and aes sedai will be allowed, it probably won't be encouraged. After all whoever ends up leading the asha'man (hopefully Logain) is going to want to stop the aes sedai from having any influence over the BT (this is also why I believe the asha'man are going to take care of any darkfriends among themselves without any outside aid, just like the aes sedai). Which also makes me wonder how long Elayne's "you still are a part of my country" is going to last. I mean not only is Logain not going to accept to be apart of any country out of pride if nothing else, but there is also the fact that Elayne is aes sedai and she has guards going around the BT regularly. I don't see how Logain is not going to quickly say enough to Elayne and make it clear that the BT is completely independent from Andor. And honestly if Elayne has any common sense, she will back off. Andor's chances against the BT are close to 0 and it's not like she is losing anything anyway.

 

The AS had no understanding of how to fix stilling during the AOL because it was so rarely done, it was a world without war, but since then there has been. . . .let me check. . .3 thousand years. and as for madness, how long did they try? The fact that they gave up, shows how weak they are. You never quit if you believe.

 

AS are a bunch of Calvinists (That's not an insult, it's a joke to one of my best friends who was a lutheran chaplain, just like me saying "I'm a lapsed catholic," and she says "You sound like a lutherain" and I say "Well he wasn't exactly the best catholic himself.")

[MasterAblar]

Actually, the BT has a huge advantage, powerwise, over the WT. Don't get me wrong, the WT has the resources, reknown, and armies that the BT does not. However, they also have LTT/Rand to teach them things long forgotten. Most of the rediscovery of Saidar is coming from Rand and Friends. There is really no way to bring back the past without someone who was from there, like, say, Lanfear. What are the odds that Egwene is going to hold meetings with Forsaken to teach them what they've forgotten? Almost nill.

 

Even if Rand was willing to teach Egwene what he knew (and I doubt he is), he can't. Saidar and Saidin are far too contrasting. In fact, Rand told Egwene how to make a gateway. As one of the Forsaken (forget who, Lanfear maybe?) explained, had she even TRIED to perform a gateway like male channelers do, she would have been killed in the process.

 

So, in terms of knowledge and power, The Male Channellers actually have a huge advantage. How long that will last, I don't know, perhaps only a few hundred years. But more than enough for the Asha'Man to put themselves in strong contention.

 

Or, maybe they'll all just get along? Either way, The White Tower is about to lose a huge amount of influence after the coming meeting. The Black Tower will rise again. (Cue pic of Confederate flag.)

 

actually, I think that the BT has an advantage, not because of Rand, but because of two things. Purpose, and the fact that the training is kinda a free for all, promoting autodidactic education. They learn how to make stuff go boom so that they can be weapons, but then they are promoted to use the power and to test out things that the WT thinks are forbidden. All frontiers are won with a bold acknowledgement of risk, but for the AS it's more important to stay whole for the glory of the WT. Why are the most progressive (even without mogy) AS are the 3 who went out on their own, not to mention all of the stuff that Moiraine seems to know that doesn't make much sense compared to what novices and accepted are allowed to learn. Meanwhile, 3K years of practice, the AS never learned how to cure stilling, over 3K years the AS never researched the nature of madness, instead they took the easy path and just castrated the men, over 3K years they never tried to keep the knowledge of ter angreal, angreal and sa'angreal, over 3K years, the world broke, the nations went to war, and they hid.

 

How many things have the AM found without any of the divine guidance of the WT?

 

Actually, LTT has to remember something of the creation of angreal and sa'angreal. He might not be able to teach Elayne anything, but maybe Niald, even if LTT didn't have the talent, he had to have a familiarity.

 

I'm no fan of the aes sedai and the WT, however I do have to point out 2 things. First: in the AOL, no one knew, or believed, it was possible to heal severing so it's not like the aes sedai had any reason to doubt that. Second: the aes sedai actually did try to figure out a way to heal madness or stop the taint, but they gave up after a while, having discovered nothing.

 

Nevertheless, I do believe that the WT's problem is that they are stuck in their traditions and beliefs which they dare not question, and that goes from anything to do with channeling to how the aes sedai act (cold and emotionless). This is where I think the BT has a huge advantage over the WT. The asha'man have absolutely nothing to stop them from creating as they go, no taboos, no restrictions. Also the fact that there are no ajah like divisions among the asha'man, or at least there won't be once the dark asha'man are thrown out. This means the asha'man are far more united than the aes sedai, especially considering the turmoil that the WT has just gone through.

 

Of course there is also, as has been said, the advantage of Rand knowing a bunch of forgotten weaves. And Rand is, let's not forget, the first asha'man, just as he is the last aes sedai (AOL type aes sedai that is). I for one really hope he is going to take a part in the future of the BT. The good thing about the asha'man too is that they can forge a completely new relation to the common people, once people learn (and accept) that the taint is gone. Right now the asha'man are sort of scary to everybody, but since they are no longer doomed to go mad, hopefully they can be a lot less solemn and all. Plus some asha'man (like Grady and Neald) have already been around common people a lot. Another thing to consider is that a lot of the asha'man are married unlike the aes sedai, so people will probably be able to relate to them better. I'm hoping that the asha'man will be able to truly live up to their name and eventually get a far better reputation then the aes sedai.

 

Yet another advantage that the asha'man have, is that they are the only men who know how to channel. Which means if any aiel, or seafolk, or even seanchan if they come around, wants to channel they have to join the BT. This allows stronger and more trusting ties among men channelers from the different cultures.

 

As far as relations with the WT goes, I think the BT is going to stay completely separate from it. So while bonding between asha'man and aes sedai will be allowed, it probably won't be encouraged. After all whoever ends up leading the asha'man (hopefully Logain) is going to want to stop the aes sedai from having any influence over the BT (this is also why I believe the asha'man are going to take care of any darkfriends among themselves without any outside aid, just like the aes sedai). Which also makes me wonder how long Elayne's "you still are a part of my country" is going to last. I mean not only is Logain not going to accept to be apart of any country out of pride if nothing else, but there is also the fact that Elayne is aes sedai and she has guards going around the BT regularly. I don't see how Logain is not going to quickly say enough to Elayne and make it clear that the BT is completely independent from Andor. And honestly if Elayne has any common sense, she will back off. Andor's chances against the BT are close to 0 and it's not like she is losing anything anyway.

 

The AS had no understanding of how to fix stilling during the AOL because it was so rarely done, it was a world without war, but since then there has been. . . .let me check. . .3 thousand years. and as for madness, how long did they try? The fact that they gave up, shows how weak they are. You never quit if you believe.

 

AS are a bunch of Calvinists (That's not an insult, it's a joke to one of my best friends who was a lutheran chaplain, just like me saying "I'm a lapsed catholic," and she says "You sound like a lutherain" and I say "Well he wasn't exactly the best catholic himself.")

 

True, severing was rare in the AOL, but it was believed to be impossible to to heal. The AOL is regarded as a time when incredible, even impossible things were done, and I doubt the aes sedai would later on doubt what was believed back then, simply because from their point of view if it can't be done in the AOL, then it just can't be done. Also while perhaps at the beginning of the WT things were still chaotic enough for someone to try seemingly impossible things, once the traditions take root, no one is going to question them anymore, hence the aes sedai constantly telling Nynaeve that she was wasting her time trying to do something impossible. And not because it was proven to be impossible but because the tradition would be ingrained so deeply (much like the belief that damane must be leached among the seanchan) that no one bothers to doubt it.

 

They apparently tried for 300 years, pretty much from the moment the WT was finished, so in 202, until 500 by which time they considered that the taint was impossible to fight off. So they basically did not manage to discover a way to save channeling men from dying. Besides Rand says that even in the AOL many people thought that healing madness was impossible. No reason to believe that the aes sedai of the 3rd age, who are considerably less knowledgeable and less powerful could discover a way.

[muddymess]

True severing was rare in the AOL, but it was believed to be impossible to to heal. The AOL is regarded as a time when incredible, even impossible things were done, and I doubt the aes sedai would later on doubt what was believed back then, simply because from their point of view if it can't be done in the AOL, then it just can't be done. Also while perhaps at the beginning of the WT things were still chaotic enough for someone to try seemingly impossible things, once the traditions take root, no one is going to question them anymore, hence the aes sedai constantly telling Nynaeve that she was wasting her time trying to do something impossible. And not because it was proven to be impossible but because the tradition would be ingrained so deeply (much like the belief that damane must be leached among the seanchan) that no one bothers to doubt it.

 

They apparently tried for 300 years, pretty much from the moment the WT was finished, so in 202, until 500 by which time they considered that the taint was impossible to fight off. So they basically did not manage to discover a way to save channeling men from dying. Besides Rand says that even in the AOL many people thought that healing madness was impossible. No reason to believe that the aes sedai of the 3rd age, who are considerably less knowledgeable and less powerful could discover a way.

I guess for once, curiosity didn't kill the cat.

 

I find it hard to believe that nobody like Nynaeve has appeared before, somebody with the will to heal everything. Unless they go through some sort of brainwashing to become AS - one that forces them to conform to tradition and take no imaginative initiative - I feel like somebody (A Brown maybe, or a Yellow) should have dedicated themselves to trying.

[MasterAblar]

True severing was rare in the AOL, but it was believed to be impossible to to heal. The AOL is regarded as a time when incredible, even impossible things were done, and I doubt the aes sedai would later on doubt what was believed back then, simply because from their point of view if it can't be done in the AOL, then it just can't be done. Also while perhaps at the beginning of the WT things were still chaotic enough for someone to try seemingly impossible things, once the traditions take root, no one is going to question them anymore, hence the aes sedai constantly telling Nynaeve that she was wasting her time trying to do something impossible. And not because it was proven to be impossible but because the tradition would be ingrained so deeply (much like the belief that damane must be leached among the seanchan) that no one bothers to doubt it.

 

They apparently tried for 300 years, pretty much from the moment the WT was finished, so in 202, until 500 by which time they considered that the taint was impossible to fight off. So they basically did not manage to discover a way to save channeling men from dying. Besides Rand says that even in the AOL many people thought that healing madness was impossible. No reason to believe that the aes sedai of the 3rd age, who are considerably less knowledgeable and less powerful could discover a way.

I guess for once, curiosity didn't kill the cat.

 

I find it hard to believe that nobody like Nynaeve has appeared before, somebody with the will to heal everything. Unless they go through some sort of brainwashing to become AS - one that forces them to conform to tradition and take no imaginative initiative - I feel like somebody (A Brown maybe, or a Yellow) should have dedicated themselves to trying.

 

Well, not only are people with that iron strong belief probably not very common, but the fact is that Nynaeve did not go through the brainwashing (because that's what it is), was already strongly opposed to the aes sedai because of Moiraine taking Rand, Mat and Perrin away, and was also inclined to doubt the aes sedai since she was so much stronger than them and found a lot of things easy. Tavereen influence can't be dismissed either.

[Mandro]

True severing was rare in the AOL, but it was believed to be impossible to to heal. The AOL is regarded as a time when incredible, even impossible things were done, and I doubt the aes sedai would later on doubt what was believed back then, simply because from their point of view if it can't be done in the AOL, then it just can't be done. Also while perhaps at the beginning of the WT things were still chaotic enough for someone to try seemingly impossible things, once the traditions take root, no one is going to question them anymore, hence the aes sedai constantly telling Nynaeve that she was wasting her time trying to do something impossible. And not because it was proven to be impossible but because the tradition would be ingrained so deeply (much like the belief that damane must be leached among the seanchan) that no one bothers to doubt it.

 

They apparently tried for 300 years, pretty much from the moment the WT was finished, so in 202, until 500 by which time they considered that the taint was impossible to fight off. So they basically did not manage to discover a way to save channeling men from dying. Besides Rand says that even in the AOL many people thought that healing madness was impossible. No reason to believe that the aes sedai of the 3rd age, who are considerably less knowledgeable and less powerful could discover a way.

I guess for once, curiosity didn't kill the cat.

 

I find it hard to believe that nobody like Nynaeve has appeared before, somebody with the will to heal everything. Unless they go through some sort of brainwashing to become AS - one that forces them to conform to tradition and take no imaginative initiative - I feel like somebody (A Brown maybe, or a Yellow) should have dedicated themselves to trying.

 

Well, not only are people with that iron strong belief probably not very common, but the fact is that Nynaeve did not go through the brainwashing (because that's what it is), was already strongly opposed to the aes sedai because of Moiraine taking Rand, Mat and Perrin away, and was also inclined to doubt the aes sedai since she was so much stronger than them and found a lot of things easy. Tavereen influence can't be dismissed either.

 

both of my arguments agreed with in different ways.

 

The WT has restricted more than it has promoted. Randland is retarded (in the actual term, not the derogative) thanks to the "guidance" of the WT.

[muddymess]

True severing was rare in the AOL, but it was believed to be impossible to to heal. The AOL is regarded as a time when incredible, even impossible things were done, and I doubt the aes sedai would later on doubt what was believed back then, simply because from their point of view if it can't be done in the AOL, then it just can't be done. Also while perhaps at the beginning of the WT things were still chaotic enough for someone to try seemingly impossible things, once the traditions take root, no one is going to question them anymore, hence the aes sedai constantly telling Nynaeve that she was wasting her time trying to do something impossible. And not because it was proven to be impossible but because the tradition would be ingrained so deeply (much like the belief that damane must be leached among the seanchan) that no one bothers to doubt it.

 

They apparently tried for 300 years, pretty much from the moment the WT was finished, so in 202, until 500 by which time they considered that the taint was impossible to fight off. So they basically did not manage to discover a way to save channeling men from dying. Besides Rand says that even in the AOL many people thought that healing madness was impossible. No reason to believe that the aes sedai of the 3rd age, who are considerably less knowledgeable and less powerful could discover a way.

I guess for once, curiosity didn't kill the cat.

 

I find it hard to believe that nobody like Nynaeve has appeared before, somebody with the will to heal everything. Unless they go through some sort of brainwashing to become AS - one that forces them to conform to tradition and take no imaginative initiative - I feel like somebody (A Brown maybe, or a Yellow) should have dedicated themselves to trying.

 

Well, not only are people with that iron strong belief probably not very common, but the fact is that Nynaeve did not go through the brainwashing (because that's what it is), was already strongly opposed to the aes sedai because of Moiraine taking Rand, Mat and Perrin away, and was also inclined to doubt the aes sedai since she was so much stronger than them and found a lot of things easy. Tavereen influence can't be dismissed either.

Nynaeve despising AS turned out to make Nynaeve the best AS of them all - one not caring for the politics and scheming, but more for the wellbeing of everyone and the help and advice she can lend to Rand. Maybe the WT losing it's iron grip on the world via the Seanchan and the BT will open up more "impossible" discoveries.

 

I still think a Nynaeve should have existed before. Maybe they were all sent away from the tower, though it seems pretty far-fetched.

[MasterAblar]

True severing was rare in the AOL, but it was believed to be impossible to to heal. The AOL is regarded as a time when incredible, even impossible things were done, and I doubt the aes sedai would later on doubt what was believed back then, simply because from their point of view if it can't be done in the AOL, then it just can't be done. Also while perhaps at the beginning of the WT things were still chaotic enough for someone to try seemingly impossible things, once the traditions take root, no one is going to question them anymore, hence the aes sedai constantly telling Nynaeve that she was wasting her time trying to do something impossible. And not because it was proven to be impossible but because the tradition would be ingrained so deeply (much like the belief that damane must be leached among the seanchan) that no one bothers to doubt it.

 

They apparently tried for 300 years, pretty much from the moment the WT was finished, so in 202, until 500 by which time they considered that the taint was impossible to fight off. So they basically did not manage to discover a way to save channeling men from dying. Besides Rand says that even in the AOL many people thought that healing madness was impossible. No reason to believe that the aes sedai of the 3rd age, who are considerably less knowledgeable and less powerful could discover a way.

I guess for once, curiosity didn't kill the cat.

 

I find it hard to believe that nobody like Nynaeve has appeared before, somebody with the will to heal everything. Unless they go through some sort of brainwashing to become AS - one that forces them to conform to tradition and take no imaginative initiative - I feel like somebody (A Brown maybe, or a Yellow) should have dedicated themselves to trying.

 

Well, not only are people with that iron strong belief probably not very common, but the fact is that Nynaeve did not go through the brainwashing (because that's what it is), was already strongly opposed to the aes sedai because of Moiraine taking Rand, Mat and Perrin away, and was also inclined to doubt the aes sedai since she was so much stronger than them and found a lot of things easy. Tavereen influence can't be dismissed either.

 

both of my arguments agreed with in different ways.

 

The WT has restricted more than it has promoted. Randland is retarded (in the actual term, not the derogative) thanks to the "guidance" of the WT.

 

Definitely. In nearly 3000 years, they seemed to have done relatively little. That they were incapable of doing things that the aes sedai in the AOL were capable of, I can understand. There were few strong aes sedai and a lot talents seemed to have disappeared. However that should not have stopped them from doing mass recruiting. They could have had aes sedai in every large city helping out, actually doing things instead of staying in the WT. I mean people have a bad opinion of aes sedai because of the men who went mad, but the women didn't help their reputation by acting as they have: cold, emotionless, arrogant, and simply setting themselves apart from everybody. Moirane helped one village out and everybody was then pretty thankful. In the end, the aes sedai have put the WT first and foremost and forgotten about the rest of the world.

[MasterAblar]

True severing was rare in the AOL, but it was believed to be impossible to to heal. The AOL is regarded as a time when incredible, even impossible things were done, and I doubt the aes sedai would later on doubt what was believed back then, simply because from their point of view if it can't be done in the AOL, then it just can't be done. Also while perhaps at the beginning of the WT things were still chaotic enough for someone to try seemingly impossible things, once the traditions take root, no one is going to question them anymore, hence the aes sedai constantly telling Nynaeve that she was wasting her time trying to do something impossible. And not because it was proven to be impossible but because the tradition would be ingrained so deeply (much like the belief that damane must be leached among the seanchan) that no one bothers to doubt it.

 

They apparently tried for 300 years, pretty much from the moment the WT was finished, so in 202, until 500 by which time they considered that the taint was impossible to fight off. So they basically did not manage to discover a way to save channeling men from dying. Besides Rand says that even in the AOL many people thought that healing madness was impossible. No reason to believe that the aes sedai of the 3rd age, who are considerably less knowledgeable and less powerful could discover a way.

I guess for once, curiosity didn't kill the cat.

 

I find it hard to believe that nobody like Nynaeve has appeared before, somebody with the will to heal everything. Unless they go through some sort of brainwashing to become AS - one that forces them to conform to tradition and take no imaginative initiative - I feel like somebody (A Brown maybe, or a Yellow) should have dedicated themselves to trying.

 

Well, not only are people with that iron strong belief probably not very common, but the fact is that Nynaeve did not go through the brainwashing (because that's what it is), was already strongly opposed to the aes sedai because of Moiraine taking Rand, Mat and Perrin away, and was also inclined to doubt the aes sedai since she was so much stronger than them and found a lot of things easy. Tavereen influence can't be dismissed either.

Nynaeve despising AS turned out to make Nynaeve the best AS of them all - one not caring for the politics and scheming, but more for the wellbeing of everyone and the help and advice she can lend to Rand. Maybe the WT losing it's iron grip on the world via the Seanchan and the BT will open up more "impossible" discoveries.

 

I still think a Nynaeve should have existed before. Maybe they were all sent away from the tower, though it seems pretty far-fetched.

 

It's interesting to notice that another very skilled woman in healing is Sumeko, who is with the Kin. She is able to do things that even Nynaeve can't. It seems that the WT is quite restrictive.

[muddymess]

It's interesting to notice that another very skilled woman in healing is Sumeko, who is with the Kin. She is able to do things that even Nynaeve can't. It seems that the WT is quite restrictive.

Kind of raises the question of what the hell the AS have been up to the last 3000 years.

[ironchefofmunchies]

It's interesting to notice that another very skilled woman in healing is Sumeko, who is with the Kin. She is able to do things that even Nynaeve can't. It seems that the WT is quite restrictive.

Kind of raises the question of what the hell the AS have been up to the last 3000 years.

 

 

 

Two words: Pillow Friends. :)

[Hopefire]

It's interesting to notice that another very skilled woman in healing is Sumeko, who is with the Kin. She is able to do things that even Nynaeve can't. It seems that the WT is quite restrictive.

Kind of raises the question of what the hell the AS have been up to the last 3000 years.

 

 

 

Two words: Pillow Friends. :)

And with those two words, everything is OK. :D

[muddymess]

It's interesting to notice that another very skilled woman in healing is Sumeko, who is with the Kin. She is able to do things that even Nynaeve can't. It seems that the WT is quite restrictive.

Kind of raises the question of what the hell the AS have been up to the last 3000 years.

 

 

 

Two words: Pillow Friends. :)

And with those two words, everything is OK. :D

Sure is. Who could possibly argue against something so... good?

[MasterAblar]

It's interesting to notice that another very skilled woman in healing is Sumeko, who is with the Kin. She is able to do things that even Nynaeve can't. It seems that the WT is quite restrictive.

Kind of raises the question of what the hell the AS have been up to the last 3000 years.

 

 

 

Two words: Pillow Friends. :)

And with those two words, everything is OK. :D

 

I was actually thinking sniffing and smoothing their skirts, but yours is better.

[JohnathonOliva]

As far as relations with the WT goes, I think the BT is going to stay completely separate from it. So while bonding between asha'man and aes sedai will be allowed, it probably won't be encouraged. After all whoever ends up leading the asha'man (hopefully Logain) is going to want to stop the aes sedai from having any influence over the BT (this is also why I believe the asha'man are going to take care of any darkfriends among themselves without any outside aid, just like the aes sedai). Which also makes me wonder how long Elayne's "you still are a part of my country" is going to last. I mean not only is Logain not going to accept to be apart of any country out of pride if nothing else, but there is also the fact that Elayne is aes sedai and she has guards going around the BT regularly. I don't see how Logain is not going to quickly say enough to Elayne and make it clear that the BT is completely independent from Andor. And honestly if Elayne has any common sense, she will back off. Andor's chances against the BT are close to 0 and it's not like she is losing anything anyway.

 

 

to comment on elayne and the black tower i think that is dangerouse ground to tread on beacuse lets not forget that elayne is the first aes sedai that is a queen and i dont dout that the WT would back her up if things began to get hairy between her and the BT im sure the AS will be looking for any excuse to go against the BT

[MasterAblar]

As far as relations with the WT goes, I think the BT is going to stay completely separate from it. So while bonding between asha'man and aes sedai will be allowed, it probably won't be encouraged. After all whoever ends up leading the asha'man (hopefully Logain) is going to want to stop the aes sedai from having any influence over the BT (this is also why I believe the asha'man are going to take care of any darkfriends among themselves without any outside aid, just like the aes sedai). Which also makes me wonder how long Elayne's "you still are a part of my country" is going to last. I mean not only is Logain not going to accept to be apart of any country out of pride if nothing else, but there is also the fact that Elayne is aes sedai and she has guards going around the BT regularly. I don't see how Logain is not going to quickly say enough to Elayne and make it clear that the BT is completely independent from Andor. And honestly if Elayne has any common sense, she will back off. Andor's chances against the BT are close to 0 and it's not like she is losing anything anyway.

 

 

to comment on elayne and the black tower i think that is dangerouse ground to tread on beacuse lets not forget that elayne is the first aes sedai that is a queen and i dont dout that the WT would back her up if things began to get hairy between her and the BT im sure the AS will be looking for any excuse to go against the BT

 

I agree, doing that may well bring the WT into it. However, although I agree that anything that puts the BT and WT at odds is going to be dangerous, I don't see the BT backing down to the WT, and I don't think the WT is going to risk open hostilities with the BT. The BT on the other hand I can see having a more "bring it" attitude, especially since the argument would be between the BT and Andor and the WT would just be using the excuse of Elayne being an aes sedai to try and have a say in it. In any case I think it would be a very bad idea for any nation to have the asha'man at their command.

[TheAngryDruid]

Well, I'd Rank it thusly:

 

1) Rand. Aiel, Tear, Illian, Arad Doman. The Borderland Rulers. Elayne's his wife. Perrin and Mat are sworn to him. As are Elayne, a bunch of other AS (including Caddy), and Moiraine. Not to mention he has 4/5 of the best generals around with him: Mat, Bashere, Ituralde, and Agelmar. And that isn't counting Perrin. Egwene is his friend, and so are the King and Queen of Malkier. Through Perrin he also gets Ghealdan and Mayene. And the Sea Folk. However, I wouldn't put the BT in his bag at the moment. Far from it.

 

2) Tuon. Weakened by the chaos in Seanchan. She made a good start with Beslan. But Egwene will hand her her hat if she attacks the WT. While her generals are competent, they can't match the Rand's, or Egwene's.

 

3) Egwene. I might rank her above Tuon, even. With the WT purged and her moves with the Hall, she deals with the other rulers. The Wise Ones respect her, and I suspect the Sea Folk do as well. She's got well over 1,000 female channelers at her disposal (probably closer to 1,500-2,000). She has Gareth Byrne and close to 100,000 soldiers (50 + 50).

 

4) Elayne. Caemlyn + Cairhien. Plus a tie to Ghealdan through Perrin and Faile.

 

5) Perrin and Faile. Two Rivers, Ghealdan, Mayene, and a good claim on Saldaea.

 

I'd put Mat down there with Darlin, Gregorin, the Borderland rulers, and the Clan Chiefs.