How To Fix Egwene

[haloun]

just to clarify on my position against her treatment of gawyn. as was stated by 3 taveren she did have a right. my position is this, she didnt tell gawyn she had a plan, she didnt hint at it, she simply told him to stay away from her and not to protect her. this is a guy who is madly in love with her. broke allegiances to protect her. so it is not so much her rebuke of him that has me concerned, it is her rebuke of him when explaining nothing to him in the first place. it is her total lack of respect to someone she should be relying upon, especially with how she feels about him. if your significant other whom you loved dearly, and you knew they loved you back just as dearly, was trying to protect you from some shadowy danger, would you go around telling them they are not to be anywhere near you? even if you had a plan to catch said danger, would you still at least not inform the person you love that you have to put yourself somewhat in harms way in order to carry a plan to trap or kill this danger? or would you let them think to themselves that you are being foolish and reckless, and that you have no desire for their peace of mind? gawyn should have realized that she had something planned, but she should have realized that her stance in the matter was causing him enough grief to disobey her order, throw reason out and act on love. they were both at fault, but i blame her more, because it was her decision to not tell him anything, it was her decision to not wrap in a gaidin cloak or a weave of invisibility and secret him in to the room. she could have handled it a lot better while he was acting out of concern for her well being, and when he did what he did she chases him off, i know through the warder bond that he can tell how much she loves him, but without that being in the books i would say she only lust after the boy and really cares nothing for him. that based off of her actions.

[capuga]

all in all I have liked egwene throughout the series, she has been one of my favorite characters, but in this last book, she got a bit annoying with her trash talk to gawyn, who has also incidentally been one of my favorites. as has perrin and mat, but not rand. go figure.

 

Wow, that may be the first time I have ever read that phrase.

 

P.S. - You may want to consider some paragraph breaks in your posts to make the wall of text easier to read.

[haloun]

i really Don't really understand all the Gawyn hate. the man is passionate and he follows his passions. i always liked him batter than Galad, and i actually used to think that the Gawyn hate was just misdirected. but oh well.

[capuga]

i really Don't really understand all the Gawyn hate. the man is passionate and he follows his passions. i always liked him batter than Galad, and i actually used to think that the Gawyn hate was just misdirected. but oh well.

 

I actually liked him quite a bit in the first few books. He was funny, charming, self-deprecating, etc. But once he hears that Rand killed Morgase he just takes a huge nose dive (and honestly, his actions in the White Tower coup and killing his teachers are not really to be applauded either). He becomes completely irrational, obsessive, close minded, etc. None of the good traits from the earlier books are to be found later on.

[Mandro]

How to fix Egwene?

 

Make her a man. :)

[idiostock]

How to fix Egwene?

 

Make her a man. :)

 

 

That doesn't make her a better character, broski.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

How to fix Egwene?

 

Make her a man. :)

 

ROFLMAO

[Fel]

How to fix Egwene?

 

Make her a man. :)

Would making her a man suddenly give her an epiphany that the Last Battle is days away and maybe, just maybe, she should stop working for political gain and start planning how she will use her considerable forces to help? Or, maybe only a man would think to send help to stop the Borderlands being overrun? Or, by becoming male, she will suddenly see that she needs to work *with* Rand/Perrin/Mat/Nynaeve/Elayne to stop the Dark One instead of trying to be in control?

 

Back to the topic, I still can't see her character being redeemed unless a lot of "off-screen" stuff has been going on which shows that she was indeed aware that reality itself was unravelling and has been taking steps to try to determine how to stop it.

[Mandro]

How to fix Egwene?

 

Make her a man. :)

Would making her a man suddenly give her an epiphany that the Last Battle is days away and maybe, just maybe, she should stop working for political gain and start planning how she will use her considerable forces to help? Or, maybe only a man would think to send help to stop the Borderlands being overrun? Or, by becoming male, she will suddenly see that she needs to work *with* Rand/Perrin/Mat/Nynaeve/Elayne to stop the Dark One instead of trying to be in control?

 

Back to the topic, I still can't see her character being redeemed unless a lot of "off-screen" stuff has been going on which shows that she was indeed aware that reality itself was unravelling and has been taking steps to try to determine how to stop it.

 

It was a joke broham about how often some of us have been called sexist.

[seasnake]

I think Perrin will set her straight. Egwene is determined to stop Rand, and Rand still has one more time where he will be hurt by women who could channel and will need Perrin's help. Perrin is still the deepest rooted in Emond's Field, as seen in ToM when he thinks "Egwene is Aes Sedai, good for her, she deserves it!" and his talking with Mat. He still thinks of them all as his neighbors and friends.

 

I think Egwene will try to use the power to stop and force Rand to do what she thinks, and Perrin will call her down for it. I imagine something like him referencing when he and Egwene were alone in TEOTW and she made him promise to dance with her on Sunday. Something to remind her of her roots and her love of Rand, something her dreams in TAR seem to indicate she needs to remember. I think Egwene will realize what she's been doing and be ashamed of her arrogance.

 

Isn't amazing how the only Aes Sedai who really gets it is Nynaeve? She's the only one who 1) still loves and cares about others more than her duties or dignities and 2) understands it's about Rand, not the Tower. I used to not like her but now I she's my favorite: she loves everyone, especially children, and that's whey she wants to heal them so badly and gets so angry when they act stupidly: she's afraid for them. She wants to take care of even Egwene and Elayne, even when they don't want it.

[randsc]

Maybe Perrin will just point out that while the price Egwene has paid to the cause is measured in a few spankings and a doubtless horrible but also brief time as a slave of the Seanchan, his entire family was murdered, not excepting his 12-year-old sister and 9-year-old brother.

 

This is one of the things that always bothers me when people go on about how much Egwene or Rand has gone though. For that matter, it it one of the things that bothers me about people excusing the Trakands and Galad because Morgase "died."

 

Perrin has suffered real loss. Which of course, explains much of his "FAAAIIILLLLLEEEEE" stuff in the middle books.

 

I think that Egwene is, in fact, in for a nasty surprise if she believes Perrin will support her.

[anotherfingolfin]

Perrin has suffered real loss. Which of course, explains much of his "FAAAIIILLLLLEEEEE" stuff in the middle books.

 

Damn, I can't believe I never thought about it like that. I still maintain that from a narrative perspective, the "FAAAIIILLLLLEEEEE" arc was overwrought and ill-advised, but damn, if it doesn't make much more sense in the context of his loss.

 

I like the idea that being the closeset to their roots as he is, Perrin will be the catalyst that brings the EF people together in the end.

[randsc]

Perrin has suffered real loss. Which of course, explains much of his "FAAAIIILLLLLEEEEE" stuff in the middle books.

 

Damn, I can't believe I never thought about it like that. I still maintain that from a narrative perspective, the "FAAAIIILLLLLEEEEE" arc was overwrought and ill-advised, but damn, if it doesn't make much more sense in the context of his loss.

 

I like the idea that being the closeset to their roots as he is, Perrin will be the catalyst that brings the EF people together in the end.

 

 

This:

 

“They are dead, my boy,” Bran said in a rush.

 

“Dead? No. They can’t be—” Perrin frowned as wetness suddenly slopped over his hand, stared at the crumpled cup as though wondering where it had come from. “I am sorry. I didn’t mean to—” He pulled at the flattened silver, trying to force it back out with his fingers. That would not work. Of course not. Very carefully, he put the ruined cup in the middle of the table. “I will replace it. I can—” He wiped his hand on his coat, and suddenly found he was caressing the axe hanging at his belt. Why was everyone looking at him so oddly? “Are you sure?” His voice sounded far away. “Adora and Deselle? Paet? My mother?”

 

“All of them,” Bran told him. “Your aunts and uncles, too, and your cousins. Everybody on the farm. I helped bury them, my boy. On that low hill, the one with the apple trees.”

 

Perrin stuck his thumb in his mouth. Fool thing to do, cutting himself on his own axe. “My mother likes apple blossoms. The Whitecloaks. Why would they—? Burn me, Paet was only nine. The girls . . . ” His voice was very flat. He thought he should have had some emotion in those words. Some emotion.

 

“It was Trollocs,” Mistress al’Vere said quickly. “They have come back, Perrin. Not the way they did when you went away, not attacking the village, but out in the countryside. Most farms without close neighbors have been abandoned. No one goes outside at night, even near to the village. It is the same down to Deven Ride and up to Watch Hill, maybe to Taren Ferry. The Whitecloaks, bad as they are, are our only real protection. They’ve saved two families that I know, when Trollocs attacked their farms.”

 

“I wished—I hoped—” He could not quite remember what it was he had wished. Something about Trollocs. He did not want to remember. The Whitecloaks protecting the Two Rivers? It was almost enough to make him laugh. “Rand’s father. Tam’s farm. Was that Trollocs, too?”

 

Mistress al’Vere opened her mouth, but Bran cut her off. “He deserves the truth, Marin. That was Whitecloaks, Perrin. That, and the Cauthon place.”

 

“Mat’s people too. Rand’s, and Mat’s, and mine.” Strange. He sounded as if he were talking about whether it might rain. “Are they dead, too?”

 

“No, my boy. No, Abell and Tam are hiding in the Westwood somewhere. And Mat’s mother and sisters . . . They’re alive, too.”

 

“Hiding?”

 

“There is no need to go into that,” Mistress al’Vere said briskly. “Bran, bring him another cup of brandy. And you drink this one, Perrin.” Her husband sat where he was, but she only frowned at him and went on. “I would offer you a bed, but it isn’t safe. Some people are like as not to run off hunting for Lord Bornhald if they find out you are here. Eward Congar and Hari Coplin fawn after the Whitecloaks like heel-hounds, eager to please and name names, and Cenn Buie isn’t much better. And Wit Congar will carry tales, too, if Daise doesn’t stop him. She is the Wisdom, now. Perrin, it is best for to go. Believe me.”

 

Perrin shook his head slowly; it was too much to take in. Daise Congar the Wisdom? The woman was like a bull. Whitecloaks protecting Emond’s Field. Hari and Eward and Wit cooperating. Not much more could be expected from Congars or Coplins, but Cenn Buie was on the Village Council. Lord Bornhald. So Geofram Bornhald was there. Faile was watching him, her eyes large and moist. Why should she be on the edge of tears?

 

“There is more, Brandelwyn al’Vere,” Gaul said. “Your face says so.”

 

“There is,” Bran agreed. “No, Marin,” he added firmly when she gave a small shake of her head. “He deserves the truth. The whole truth.” She folded her hands with a sigh; Marin al’Vere very nearly always got her way—except when Bran’s face was set, as now, with his eyebrows drawn down hard as a plow.

 

“What truth?” Perrin asked. His mother liked apple blossoms.

 

“First off, Padan Fain is with the Whitecloaks,” Bran said. “He calls himself Ordeith now, and he won’t answer to his own name at all, but it’s him, stare down his nose as he will.”

 

“He’s a Darkfriend,” Perrin said absently. Adora and Deselle always put apple blossoms in their hair in the spring. “Admitted from his own mouth. He brought the Trollocs, on Winternight.” Paet liked to climb in the apple trees; he would throw apples at you from the branches if you did not watch him.

 

 

got me through a lot of the "FAAAIIILLLLEEEE" arc before losing patience. Not all of it, because it went on so long and drained so much from the pace of the story. But a lot of it.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think Perrin will set her straight. Egwene is determined to stop Rand, and Rand still has one more time where he will be hurt by women who could channel and will need Perrin's help. Perrin is still the deepest rooted in Emond's Field, as seen in ToM when he thinks "Egwene is Aes Sedai, good for her, she deserves it!" and his talking with Mat. He still thinks of them all as his neighbors and friends.

 

I think Egwene will try to use the power to stop and force Rand to do what she thinks, and Perrin will call her down for it. I imagine something like him referencing when he and Egwene were alone in TEOTW and she made him promise to dance with her on Sunday. Something to remind her of her roots and her love of Rand, something her dreams in TAR seem to indicate she needs to remember. I think Egwene will realize what she's been doing and be ashamed of her arrogance.

 

Actually I think the second time Rand is hurt by women who can channel has already happened. Losing a hand and being collared if briefly by Semirhage certainly hurt him.

 

And Egwene is far too intelligent to attempt to use the power against Rand. In ToM she even remarked how Rand appeared as if he were able to break through two full circles shielding him. Challenging Rand to a fight is the height of folly.

[capuga]

I think Perrin will set her straight. Egwene is determined to stop Rand, and Rand still has one more time where he will be hurt by women who could channel and will need Perrin's help. Perrin is still the deepest rooted in Emond's Field, as seen in ToM when he thinks "Egwene is Aes Sedai, good for her, she deserves it!" and his talking with Mat. He still thinks of them all as his neighbors and friends.

 

I think Egwene will try to use the power to stop and force Rand to do what she thinks, and Perrin will call her down for it. I imagine something like him referencing when he and Egwene were alone in TEOTW and she made him promise to dance with her on Sunday. Something to remind her of her roots and her love of Rand, something her dreams in TAR seem to indicate she needs to remember. I think Egwene will realize what she's been doing and be ashamed of her arrogance.

 

Actually I think the second time Rand is hurt by women who can channel has already happened. Losing a hand and being collared if briefly by Semirhage certainly hurt him.

And Egwene is far too intelligent to attempt to use the power against Rand. In ToM she even remarked how Rand appeared as if he were able to break through two full circles shielding him. Challenging Rand to a fight is the height of folly.

 

Except Perrin is supposed to be there to help Rand and he wasn't around for the Semirhage attack.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think Perrin will set her straight. Egwene is determined to stop Rand, and Rand still has one more time where he will be hurt by women who could channel and will need Perrin's help. Perrin is still the deepest rooted in Emond's Field, as seen in ToM when he thinks "Egwene is Aes Sedai, good for her, she deserves it!" and his talking with Mat. He still thinks of them all as his neighbors and friends.

 

I think Egwene will try to use the power to stop and force Rand to do what she thinks, and Perrin will call her down for it. I imagine something like him referencing when he and Egwene were alone in TEOTW and she made him promise to dance with her on Sunday. Something to remind her of her roots and her love of Rand, something her dreams in TAR seem to indicate she needs to remember. I think Egwene will realize what she's been doing and be ashamed of her arrogance.

 

Actually I think the second time Rand is hurt by women who can channel has already happened. Losing a hand and being collared if briefly by Semirhage certainly hurt him.

And Egwene is far too intelligent to attempt to use the power against Rand. In ToM she even remarked how Rand appeared as if he were able to break through two full circles shielding him. Challenging Rand to a fight is the height of folly.

 

Except Perrin is supposed to be there to help Rand and he wasn't around for the Semirhage attack.

 

Those are two different viewings according to WoT wikia.

“Aes Sedai are going to hurt you. Women who can channel, anyway. It was all confused. I'm not sure about the Aes Sedai part. But it might happen more than once. I think that's why it seemed all scrambled.”

 

“When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever... But with the two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand.”

[capuga]

I think Perrin will set her straight. Egwene is determined to stop Rand, and Rand still has one more time where he will be hurt by women who could channel and will need Perrin's help. Perrin is still the deepest rooted in Emond's Field, as seen in ToM when he thinks "Egwene is Aes Sedai, good for her, she deserves it!" and his talking with Mat. He still thinks of them all as his neighbors and friends.

 

I think Egwene will try to use the power to stop and force Rand to do what she thinks, and Perrin will call her down for it. I imagine something like him referencing when he and Egwene were alone in TEOTW and she made him promise to dance with her on Sunday. Something to remind her of her roots and her love of Rand, something her dreams in TAR seem to indicate she needs to remember. I think Egwene will realize what she's been doing and be ashamed of her arrogance.

 

Actually I think the second time Rand is hurt by women who can channel has already happened. Losing a hand and being collared if briefly by Semirhage certainly hurt him.

And Egwene is far too intelligent to attempt to use the power against Rand. In ToM she even remarked how Rand appeared as if he were able to break through two full circles shielding him. Challenging Rand to a fight is the height of folly.

 

Except Perrin is supposed to be there to help Rand and he wasn't around for the Semirhage attack.

 

Those are two different viewings according to WoT wikia.

“Aes Sedai are going to hurt you. Women who can channel, anyway. It was all confused. I'm not sure about the Aes Sedai part. But it might happen more than once. I think that's why it seemed all scrambled.”

 

“When you two were together, I saw those fireflies and the darkness stronger than ever... But with the two of you in the same room, the fireflies were holding their own instead of being eaten faster than they can swarm, the way they do when you're alone. And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand.”

 

I stand corrected. I'm so used to just thinking/reading about the two times women channeling hurting Rand and the two times Perrin has to save him being inter-related that I forgot that the second viewing doesn't actually specify what Perrin has to save him from.

[seasnake]

Maybe Perrin will just point out that while the price Egwene has paid to the cause is measured in a few spankings and a doubtless horrible but also brief time as a slave of the Seanchan, his entire family was murdered, not excepting his 12-year-old sister and 9-year-old brother.

 

This is one of the things that always bothers me when people go on about how much Egwene or Rand has gone though. For that matter, it it one of the things that bothers me about people excusing the Trakands and Galad because Morgase "died."

 

Perrin has suffered real loss. Which of course, explains much of his "FAAAIIILLLLLEEEEE" stuff in the middle books.

 

I think that Egwene is, in fact, in for a nasty surprise if she believes Perrin will support her.

 

Yeah, I never understand the Perrin hate. Dude's whole family is slaughter, his wife is taken from him, possibly being raped and tortured (and he was right about one of those) and he's not supposed to angst and have it affect him?

 

The Faile arc really only goes three books, and in one books he's fixing it (KoD) and in CoT you have the Hammer vs. Axe thing resolved. TGS doesn't count, he had one chapter and clearly it was just to give Perrin fans something to read after years of no book. It's really only Winter's Heart and a chunk of CoT where he's being arguably emo. People act like Perrin's done nothing since LoC but mope about Faile.

[Hopefire]

I think that it's also possible that the second time Perrin needed to be there for Rand has already come and gone, with him not actually being there. Specifically, Rand being collared by Semirhage, the same as the second time Aes Sedai would cause great harm to him. Min doesn't say that Rand would die, just that "[t]wice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

 

It's an if/then viewing, and the result isn't that Rand would die, but rather that something really bad would happen. I'd say drawing on the Dark One's own power and reinforcing the link between him and Moridin, leading to DarkRand, was very, very bad. Considering that it almost led to the destruction of the world and all. Of course, just because something very bad happened and Perrin wasn't there doesn't mean it's the event Min foresaw.

 

Having said that, I believe that the second time has yet to occur, but I could see it having already happened.

[haloun]

what do you think it will come down to if he walk out on the field of merrilor and holds the last of the seals above his head, asks for an alternative and when no one gives him one, hes brings the first one down breaking it over his knee, then asks again? do you really think that egwene will just stand there and let it happen? if something like that happens i think it much more likely that she will retaliate with brute force, after all the seals are technically her responsibility. she is the watcher of the seals by title. not only that but how much power do you think she will lose with the monarchs of the world who all think the seals are in the WT? not knowing it hass been at least a thousand years since the amyrlin seat has known where even one was? it will have to come down to either a fight or egwene doing what he asked, agree or come up with an alternative.

[CoonDawg]

In reply to the topic title: An axe to the face.

 

However, on a more realistic note, I think a combination of Nynaeve's impatience, Perrin's senses, and Moiraine's apathy (Moiraine has pretty much said that Rand should do what he thinks is best) over the entire topic will help set her straight. I'm still hoping for a bad end (like she's under total compulsion, or she flips out and dies like Saruman (a bunch of arrows from hobbi- I mean Two Rivers folk), or Gawyn gives her AIDS, etc.), but more likely she'll just be put in her place.

[Sleeper]

I honestly wonder sometimes if RJ wrote Aes Sedai almost as a caricature, to showcase how positions of power and a superiority complex can lead to inept and poor leaders. I've been re-reading the series (just finished LoC) and I'm just shocked at the bumbling foolishness of the Aes Sedai pretty much all the time. It's to a point where I'm starting to think RJ wrote them that way on purpose.

 

Hopefully that means that the entire order of Aes Sedai and Egwene is in for a major schooling in AMoL.

[David Selig]

Of course it was intentional, and quite blatant too.

 

I think RJ went overboard on the whole "Aes Sedai are incompetent fools" in LoC and the subsequent books, it's hard for me to believe that such a deeply flawed organisation filled with childish idiots would have kept so much influence for millennia. Sure, the have the One Power, but with the restriction of the Oaths on them, it alone wouldn't have been enough to overcome all their flaws and general incompetence.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Of course it was intentional, and quite blatant too.

 

I think RJ went overboard on the whole "Aes Sedai are incompetent fools" in LoC and the subsequent books, it's hard for me to believe that such a deeply flawed organisation filled with childish idiots would have kept so much influence for millennia. Sure, the have the One Power, but with the restriction of the Oaths on them, it alone wouldn't have been enough to overcome all their flaws and general incompetence.

 

Aes Sedai are just as smart or stupid as regular people. That's the thing. Channelling doesn't give you a set of extra brains.

[Sleeper]

Of course it was intentional, and quite blatant too.

 

I think RJ went overboard on the whole "Aes Sedai are incompetent fools" in LoC and the subsequent books, it's hard for me to believe that such a deeply flawed organisation filled with childish idiots would have kept so much influence for millennia. Sure, the have the One Power, but with the restriction of the Oaths on them, it alone wouldn't have been enough to overcome all their flaws and general incompetence.

 

Aes Sedai are just as smart or stupid as regular people. That's the thing. Channelling doesn't give you a set of extra brains.

I disagree. It seems to me that Aes Sedai are written as stupider than most people. Examples are shown throughout the series where Aes Sedai behave recklessly, foolishly, and egotistically, more so than other people. Channelling seems to take away brains.