Yep, I still hate Min

[AvroChris]

I've thought that in the last few books, aside from keeping Rand somewhat sane (pretty important, really!) she's been very much of a non-character. I know that good guys don't die in these books unless they've only been there for about a page (with the exception of Noal/Jain and, uh, Noal/Jain)but I was seriously expecting her to kick the bucket in ToM. I know she's a good person and comes up with a few nuggets about what Rand needs to do (as well as dispensing plot clues for us lot) but she has got rather stale and I don't really see her having any sort of future.

[Xader]

I know that good guys don't die in these books unless they've only been there for about a page (with the exception of Noal/Jain and, uh, Noal/Jain)...

 

Don't forget Nalesean! (Mat has a way of getting friends killed)

[OptimusPrime]

IMHO, she didn't trick her. She convinced her that it was the right thing to do. And I actually agreed with her reasoning.

That scene made me wonder if Brandon forgot about their conversation in LoC or wanted to show how much Egwene has changed since.

 

Nynaeve poked her head in hesitantly, then was pushed into the room by Elayne. Side by side, they made perfect deep curtsies, spreading white, banded skirts wide and murmuring, "Mother."

"Please don't do that," Egwene said. Actually, it was more of a wail. "You're the only two friends I have, and if you start..." Light, she was almost ready to cry!

--Lord of Chaos

Off topic, but I'd love to see a callback to that scene. Egwene talks to Nynaeve, and asks her to try to talk Rand out of breaking the seals. Nynaeve and Egwene have a conversation that mirrors the conversation where Egwene convinces Nynaeve to call her Mother, wherein Nynaeve asks Egwene for advice on how to try to convince a person that said person is wrong. Nynaeve talks about how she's paddled said person's bottom at some point in the past, but in the passing years the person in question has changed, gotten proud and acts arrogantly, wants to be bowed to and referred to with appropriate titles, pushes away friends, and doesn't listen to sensible advice easily. Egwene makes some suggestions.

 

And then Nynaeve applies those suggestions in dressing down Egwene.

 

I can hope. After seeing Egwene bully Nynaeve since the Shadow Rising, I'd like Nynaeve to get in a dig or two before the end.

 

That would be awesome.

[Shard]

 

The real reason some people don't like Min is the simply fact that she isn't by their standards a "strong woman".

 

 

I think there is something to this. Min is a lousy avatar of 21st Century feminism, therefore for some readers cannot be an admirable character.

 

 

I never said I thought she wasn't a strong woman. That is NOT why I dislike her. I just don't think she is particularly useful. I don't think she helped keep Rand human, like many others do, I don't think her visions are useful, and I don't think that she has much to add to the story to date. And being 11 books into what was supposed to be a 10 book series, I think it is a little late to think that anything that happens this late in the game will get me to change my mind.

 

I see why some people think she was "trying" to help Rand retain is humanity, but I just don't think that she actually did. Can someone give me an example of how her presence did this? Did her presence help at Natrim's Barrow? Did she ever convince him to be less hard in one of his decisions? (I am sincerely asking this last question, I don't recall any instance where her presence convinced him he was doing the wrong thing by burying his emotions).

 

I guess I want an actual example of how people think she helped him retain his humanity. Like I said earlier, I see Tam as the hero in that, not Min.

 

KoD Ch 27 "A plain Wooden Box" pg 592 (Hardback)5th paragraph, the whole paragraph.

 

 

This doesn't actually help me much since I listen to the audiobooks. Can you provide context?

 

That was the part where Semirahge just revealed that Rand is insane and hears Lews Therin in his head. Rand then looks around his ally's to see their reaction and he seems to be tettering on going nuts right there and then until he gets to Min and feels all the love she has for him.

 

"If she(Min) turned away from him, he didn't think he would be able to stand it" Paraphrasing that since I don't have the book. She's been the emotional anchor to keeping him sane and human.

[eslechta]

 

The real reason some people don't like Min is the simply fact that she isn't by their standards a "strong woman".

 

 

I think there is something to this. Min is a lousy avatar of 21st Century feminism, therefore for some readers cannot be an admirable character.

 

 

I never said I thought she wasn't a strong woman. That is NOT why I dislike her. I just don't think she is particularly useful. I don't think she helped keep Rand human, like many others do, I don't think her visions are useful, and I don't think that she has much to add to the story to date. And being 11 books into what was supposed to be a 10 book series, I think it is a little late to think that anything that happens this late in the game will get me to change my mind.

 

I see why some people think she was "trying" to help Rand retain is humanity, but I just don't think that she actually did. Can someone give me an example of how her presence did this? Did her presence help at Natrim's Barrow? Did she ever convince him to be less hard in one of his decisions? (I am sincerely asking this last question, I don't recall any instance where her presence convinced him he was doing the wrong thing by burying his emotions).

 

I guess I want an actual example of how people think she helped him retain his humanity. Like I said earlier, I see Tam as the hero in that, not Min.

 

KoD Ch 27 "A plain Wooden Box" pg 592 (Hardback)5th paragraph, the whole paragraph.

 

 

This doesn't actually help me much since I listen to the audiobooks. Can you provide context?

 

That was the part where Semirahge just revealed that Rand is insane and hears Lews Therin in his head. Rand then looks around his ally's to see their reaction and he seems to be tettering on going nuts right there and then until he gets to Min and feels all the love she has for him.

 

"If she(Min) turned away from him, he didn't think he would be able to stand it" Paraphrasing that since I don't have the book. She's been the emotional anchor to keeping him sane and human.

 

Thanks for explaining that, I did ask for one example, and you provided it.

 

Saying that, I still don't believe she did that good of a job of keeping him sane or human. I know many, if not most people disagree with me on that, but that's just how I feel.

 

I am interested in the idea that she is actually around for the reader, to allow glimpses into the future, etc. I still don't like her, and it's too bad, I wish I did.

 

I also think that the average housewife works way harder than Min does, especially lately. I find it funny that people think my dislike of her has anything to do with that. I feel she is useless because she really hasn't done anything for the last few books but feel the bond between her and rand (which I am VERY tired of hearing about), and sleep with him.

[soullessktty]

Being human and being close to one's loved one is being useless? Wow... kind of hard words. I like Min for the fact that she seems to be the most normal character, almost seems to be identified as the normal person/human being among other characters. I guess for some people being average normal person is boring and useless...

 

Is being useless mean well, bad? I guess it does in the world where everyone is trying to use everyone else's for their own advantage. When you can't use someone for your advantage, you suppose to just ditch that person for being useless.

[jemron]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I feel like one of the reasons why Min doesn't seem to fit into the story as well for me as the other females in the story is because she actually seems LESS extreme than the others... She seems like she comes more from our world of "average" women, and less from the WoT world of women, where they've basically been in charge for the last 3000 years. She isn't bossy, and she doesn't care about dresses, and she just wants to be a good partner/helper to the man she loves. She doesn't want to be in charge.

 

That's why, to me, she's a breath of fresh air in this series. On the other hand, she really doesn't seem to fit in, and so her character comes across as a bit awkward in the world of the Wheel of Time I think.

[Hopefire]

I guess perspective plays a big role here. I can see why people think that Min's scholarly studies are useless (in all fairness, she's had only two major discoveries, one of which Cadsuane made first), and why her role in keeping Rand sane hasn't been flattering to her. I can see why people call her Rand's sex toy. I just see her from a different perspective, and will continue to do so.

 

 

There's a section of the Bible that Min reminds me of:

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."

-1 Corinthians 13:4-8

 

To each their own.

[Kara]

I am curious...how old are the Min haters?

 

I get the impression they will be kind of young, and not able to understand the value of loving someone and having the love and support of someone.

 

The whole thing about Min being a sex toy, makes me feel like they don't understand love.

[Hopefire]

I am curious...how old are the Min haters?

 

I get the impression they will be kind of young, and not able to understand the value of loving someone and having the love and support of someone.

 

The whole thing about Min being a sex toy, makes me feel like they don't understand love.

 

What is love?

 

I think that this is the best explanation out there.

[capuga]

I am curious...how old are the Min haters?

 

I get the impression they will be kind of young, and not able to understand the value of loving someone and having the love and support of someone.

 

The whole thing about Min being a sex toy, makes me feel like they don't understand love.

 

Sorry, this is not the case for me. I am not "young", I am in my early 40s. It has nothing to do with "understanding" love, I just find her annoying.

 

And I still don't believe she kept Rand sane. He wasn't sane when he became "dark Rand". I don't believe she slowed down the progression, and she had nothing to do with his reversal. You can say that Tam was only the catalyst, but his discussion did more for rand in 10 minutes than a year of Min following him around like a devoted puppy, "feeling the bond" and sleeping with him. Calling him names isn't challenging him on his decisions, and while she may have been trying to keep him sane, I don't think she did. I don't even think it was possible for her to do so.

 

At least we've talked you down from hate to annoyance. I figured that's about the best we can do. And I can understand thinking she's annoying (although I disagree). I just don't see why anyone would dislike her strong enough to say they hate her. She doesn't really exhibit the traits that people hate about other characters - arrogance, manipulation, mistreatment of friends, know-it-all, etc. She's mostly just a stable, nice person. So given person preferences, I could see people thinking she's boring or annoying. But hate? I'll save the strong opinions for people with the strong negative personality traits that do crappy things to others.

 

And again - she didn't keep him sane, that wasn't possible. But she kept him from becoming an inhuman machine for as long as possible. How much sooner would he have become Dark Rand without that love? He decided not to blow up the world because of love - how can you say his love for Min and her's for him was not a big part of that decision? Who else gave him love and support throughout the later books when everyone was viewing him just as the scary Dragon Reborn or Car'a'carn? His friends were all gone. His other girlfriends had other things to do (this is not a knock on them - just that he needed someone and Min was the one that was able to be there for him). Considering the paranoia and inhuman rock he turned into before almost ending existense how much worse would it have been without someone around that he absolutely trusted and loved and who loved him? How much worse off would you be without anyone around that cared about you?

 

And others have already posted quotes from Rand himself that indicate he believes that Min is helping keep him human. You can still find her annoying, boring, and not that useful but I don't really see how it can be debated that she helped hold off the craziness for as long as possible.

 

And Tam does not deserve much credit for inadvertently setting off Rand's paranoia to the point that Rand almost balefired him. It was this atrocity that opened Rand's eyes to what he had become, but Tam didn't try to do anything - he just happened to mention Cadsuane's name and almost get himself killed.

[eslechta]

I am curious...how old are the Min haters?

 

I get the impression they will be kind of young, and not able to understand the value of loving someone and having the love and support of someone.

 

The whole thing about Min being a sex toy, makes me feel like they don't understand love.

 

Sorry, this is not the case for me. I am not "young", I am in my early 40s. It has nothing to do with "understanding" love, I just find her annoying.

 

And I still don't believe she kept Rand sane. He wasn't sane when he became "dark Rand". I don't believe she slowed down the progression, and she had nothing to do with his reversal. You can say that Tam was only the catalyst, but his discussion did more for rand in 10 minutes than a year of Min following him around like a devoted puppy, "feeling the bond" and sleeping with him. Calling him names isn't challenging him on his decisions, and while she may have been trying to keep him sane, I don't think she did. I don't even think it was possible for her to do so.

[Haftarun8]

Of all the girls in this series, the only ones I would even consider asking out on a date would be Min. The rest save for Birgitte are scheming, manipulative, supremest, and selfish compared to her, and consistently find ways to completely turn me off to them even if they were just acquaintances of mine, much less friends or lovers. I do, however, think Nyneave has grown up considerably towards the end of the series. She actually realizes the meaning of love and truly cares about those loved ones over mere political and social conquest. It's no wonder she, Min, and Moiraine are the only women Rand actually trusts out of the hundreds of other female characters...

[eslechta]

I am curious...how old are the Min haters?

 

I get the impression they will be kind of young, and not able to understand the value of loving someone and having the love and support of someone.

 

The whole thing about Min being a sex toy, makes me feel like they don't understand love.

 

Sorry, this is not the case for me. I am not "young", I am in my early 40s. It has nothing to do with "understanding" love, I just find her annoying.

 

And I still don't believe she kept Rand sane. He wasn't sane when he became "dark Rand". I don't believe she slowed down the progression, and she had nothing to do with his reversal. You can say that Tam was only the catalyst, but his discussion did more for rand in 10 minutes than a year of Min following him around like a devoted puppy, "feeling the bond" and sleeping with him. Calling him names isn't challenging him on his decisions, and while she may have been trying to keep him sane, I don't think she did. I don't even think it was possible for her to do so.

 

At least we've talked you down from hate to annoyance. I figured that's about the best we can do. And I can understand thinking she's annoying (although I disagree). I just don't see why anyone would dislike her strong enough to say they hate her. She doesn't really exhibit the traits that people hate about other characters - arrogance, manipulation, mistreatment of friends, know-it-all, etc. She's mostly just a stable, nice person. So given person preferences, I could see people thinking she's boring or annoying. But hate? I'll save the strong opinions for people with the strong negative personality traits that do crappy things to others.

 

And again - she didn't keep him sane, that wasn't possible. But she kept him from becoming an inhuman machine for as long as possible. How much sooner would he have become Dark Rand without that love? He decided not to blow up the world because of love - how can you say his love for Min and her's for him was not a big part of that decision? Who else gave him love and support throughout the later books when everyone was viewing him just as the scary Dragon Reborn or Car'a'carn? His friends were all gone. His other girlfriends had other things to do (this is not a knock on them - just that he needed someone and Min was the one that was able to be there for him). Considering the paranoia and inhuman rock he turned into before almost ending existense how much worse would it have been without someone around that he absolutely trusted and loved and who loved him? How much worse off would you be without anyone around that cared about you?

 

And others have already posted quotes from Rand himself that indicate he believes that Min is helping keep him human. You can still find her annoying, boring, and not that useful but I don't really see how it can be debated that she helped hold off the craziness for as long as possible.

 

And Tam does not deserve much credit for inadvertently setting off Rand's paranoia to the point that Rand almost balefired him. It was this atrocity that opened Rand's eyes to what he had become, but Tam didn't try to do anything - he just happened to mention Cadsuane's name and almost get himself killed.

 

 

I did mention earlier that hate was a little strong, and annoying and useless are more accurate (I usually find that extreme statements generate more of a response, which it certainly did in this case). I didn't dislike her in the first bunch of books, which I have also mentioned before, It is just in the last few that I find her inherently unlikeable ( this, in fairness, also may have something to do with Kate Redding's voice for her, it is actually a very whiny portrayal. I normally like her voices for people, but min's is like fingernails on a chalkboard.)

 

I also didn't say you said she kept Rand sane (if you follow that), but quite a few people have repeated that mantra in this thread.

 

I agree with your Tam statement, but if we are going to give Min credit for "keeping rand sane and human" then we have to give equal credit to Tam for helping him actually get his humanity back.

 

Also I did want to add onto the whole "how old are you" thing, I am 40, female and married. I think I do understand what love is, and most importantly how important it is not to lose yourself in it. It is important to remain your own person, and not just become a tool for someone else to use, however noble the intentions. Elayne and Avi do have their flaws (especially Elayne), but they both understand that better than Min does.

 

 

I see your arguments about Min and perhaps you are correct, but I still don't like what the character has become. She is annoying. I respect your right to disagree and I really have enjoyed this discussion.

[capuga]

I agree with your Tam statement, but if we are going to give Min credit for "keeping rand sane and human" then we have to give equal credit to Tam for helping him actually get his humanity back.

 

I guess the distinction I make is that Min was actively and consiously trying to keep Rand from becoming an inhuman rock. Tam's contribution was completely inadvertant. I'd actually give Cadsuane the credit there - she set the plan in motion to get Tam in place. She gamboled with the fate of the world and won.

 

Also I did want to add onto the whole "how old are you" thing, I am 40, female and married. I think I do understand what love is, and most importantly how important it is not to lose yourself in it. It is important to remain your own person, and not just become a tool for someone else to use, however noble the intentions. Elayne and Avi do have their flaws (especially Elayne), but they both understand that better than Min does.

 

I'm not saying you said I did, but I want to make sure and point out that I did not make the "how old are you" argument. I've tried to keep my reasoning for my arguments as text-based as possible.

 

I would say that I'm not sure that Elayne and Avi understand not losing yourself in a man any better than Min does - they just happen to have other responsibilities (although I respect that they do not shirk those responsibilities for a man). Just by the circumstances of their births they do not have the luxury of being with Rand as much. Min just doesn't happen to have those same responsibilities so she is able to go ahead and follow her heart. What else should she be doing? Still being a barmaid in Baerlon? It shouldn't be a knock on her that she wasn't born into the same positions as the other two.

 

 

I see your arguments about Min and perhaps you are correct, but I still don't like what the character has become. She is annoying. I respect your right to disagree and I really have enjoyed this discussion.

 

Me too. Min's actually not even my favorite female character (or even love interest for Rand - I've always been partial to Avi), but I do like her and thought she deserved a defense. I would say that as much fun as some of the other characters are to read, Min would probably be the only girl in the book that I would actually want to date in the real world.

[eslechta]

 

 

 

I see your arguments about Min and perhaps you are correct, but I still don't like what the character has become. She is annoying. I respect your right to disagree and I really have enjoyed this discussion.

 

Me too. Min's actually not even my favorite female character (or even love interest for Rand - I've always been partial to Avi), but I do like her and thought she deserved a defense. I would say that as much fun as some of the other characters are to read, Min would probably be the only girl in the book that I would actually want to date in the real world.

 

 

I know you didn't ask the age question, I just wanted to fill out that response a little more. I really appreciate that you didn't pull any of the "you're a feminist" "you're too young" "you don't understand love" excuses that others did. I can dislike a character because of reasons other than those cliches.

 

I don't know what else Min should be doing. Something more active, I guess, but don't ask me what. I never said I was being rational, heehee.

 

I also like Avi the best of the three. Can't tell you who my actual favorite character is, it has changed so much over the series, but Nyneave as she is now is probably closest to top of the list. Her ability to love, compassion for the whole world, stubbornness, and blunt way of speaking pretty much whatever is on her mind (a trait I share), are all features I admire.

 

Being a heterosexual woman, I wouldn't want to date Min. I guess the whole thing for me boils down to I wouldn't want to be friends with her either.

[David Selig]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I feel like one of the reasons why Min doesn't seem to fit into the story as well for me as the other females in the story is because she actually seems LESS extreme than the others... She seems like she comes more from our world of "average" women, and less from the WoT world of women, where they've basically been in charge for the last 3000 years. She isn't bossy, and she doesn't care about dresses, and she just wants to be a good partner/helper to the man she loves. She doesn't want to be in charge.

 

That's why, to me, she's a breath of fresh air in this series. On the other hand, she really doesn't seem to fit in, and so her character comes across as a bit awkward in the world of the Wheel of Time I think.

It's partly because she's pretty much the only one of the important female characters in the series who hasn't undergone some kind of leadership training - for becoming an Aes Sedai, Wise One, high noble, Wavemistress, etc, and who hasn't been in a position of formal authority yet. So naturally she's less bossy than the others. She's almost like the token normal among the cast except that she has her viewings, but they don't give her any kind of real power.

 

Min would probably be the only girl in the book that I would actually want to date in the real world.

Come on, most of them are described as absolutely gorgeous looking, their personality flaws are not so severe as to refuse them at least a few dates. Except Egwene, of course. ;)

[capuga]

 

Min would probably be the only girl in the book that I would actually want to date in the real world.

 

Come on, most of them are described as absolutely gorgeous looking, their personality flaws are not so severe as to refuse them at least a few dates. Except Egwene, of course. ;)

 

Ok, maybe I should have said that she is the only one that a would want a long term relationship with.

[Frostmuse]

The irony is that Min herself would agree with the people who think she's being passive and vanishing in the shadow of a man instead of being her own independent person. If it was up to her, that's not the lot she would have chosen for herself in life - she states this clearly in her own PoVs several times, she's her own walking contradiction. (she's sharing that characteristic with Mat, the "I don't like lace. Well, okay, just a little bits." thing) You could chalk it up to RJ meta-ing his views on strong but loving women, but I like it more in the in-universe view that the Pattern has a plan and right there and then, and Min's place by Rand is as much out of necessity as the other two ta'veren gaining their armies, it's just that being someone's anchor to sanity isn't as glorious as being the hero of the story. Which, again, is a very Wheel of Time-esque thing. None of the characters see themselves as heroes - they're just people who have a very hard task ahead of them.

[haloun]

I too thought she was useless for a while, a way for RJ to show the diversity of cultures, and bring in polygamy. however as of late I am realizing the importance of her character. at first she was an oracle type figure, never thought i would see her again, then she showed up again and i started seeing the whole love triangle thing. then fel died, and she started taking over his work. when that happened my first thought was WOW you think you can puzzle out what this guy didnt? youre more stupid than i thought!!!!!! then she bonded him and her role became more apparent. she was the emotional anchor. yes rand still went insane. NO-ONE has been able to stop that process in 3,000 yearS!!! they tried everything, even not touching the source. it didnt work. she kept him as a human instead of the demigod all channelers end up being. isnt that why female aes sedai dont marry? because they think men cant handle being around someone with that much more power than them? Put yourself in Rands shoes (BTW if I was in anyones camp it would be perrins, i have hated rand, egwene, siuan, even moiraine, at one point or another, but i am a perrin/mat fan all the way)anyways in rand shoes you would be terminally insane, think of a tumor that is growing in your brain and no one can stop it. not only that but it takes control of your bodily functions, moves your arms and legs, touches a mystical majical power to destroy other things, and talks to you. i dont think anything but realizing that there is no real tumor, and that it is just yourself, would stop you from going insane, but conjugal visits would definately give you moments of reality, where the tumor that isnt, and your own mind, actually think the same things, there is no argument, there is no debate in your own head, just a girl who knows what you like and wants you to have it. now add in that you can actually feel her feelings for you, and you start thinking that maybe the whole world isnt against you like they should be, this one person is reason enough to try to save the world for the time being. do what you can, then die. well i would say that she has been more than useful enough just for that, but now think about how in a year she has figured out what cadsuane the legendary aes sedai who can do anything amd doesnt answer to the amyrlin even took years of study herself to figure out, and maybe just maybe min the oracle from the first book will return and figure out the true prupose of callandor.

[EvilSocrates]

I largely agree with Mark as to Min's plot importance. However, I'm not sure why such a justification is necessary in the first place. Since when is being a nice love interest for the main character not a valid story role in a fantasy novel? Their romance is fairly believable, and kind of cute. Would Middle Earth really have not gotten along without Arwen? She was a love interest. Love interests are, well, interesting support characters!

[Sleeper]

I've always liked Min. She's a breath of fresh air in the series. The WoT world is filled with people who scheme, plot, and squabble for power and influence and having a character who doesn't care about that and is just genuine and likable is kinda refreshing.

[IMeMin]

I, um, do not hate Min. Actually, I worship Min. People actually hate Min? What the...

 

(okay, but seriously...)

 

I read some but not the entirety of the earlier posts. Most people have already made the points I want to make, I suppose. She's smart and dedicated enough to try to figure out the Fel stuff, her viewings can be problematic sometimes but it's better to know than to not know, and she uses them to help people. She's much more interested in knowledge than power. She's humble without being meek. Her story with Rand starts as infatuation and turns into love.

 

Now, every once in a while the skeptic in me does wonder if RJ "tricked" me into liking this character by emphasizing how un-Aes Sedai she is. Or that the whole "boy's clothes" thing translates badly in terms of gender politics, as if there's this message in there that women are more likeable if they don't "act like women". But that skepticism generally goes away when I think about Book 6 and further on when she starts actually having the relationship with Rand. Sometimes RJ does seem to stoop to stereotypes when it comes to men and women, but the Rand/Min relationship I think transcends that.

 

Anyway she's my favorite WOT character so I just had to post.

[BillLongpre]

maybe im out to lunch on this but is it possible that Min is the reborn Illyana?

[rgiorgetti]

maybe im out to lunch on this but is it possible that Min is the reborn Illyana?

 

Oh dear God in heaven! NOOO!

 

I will accept that she has a purpose (ie. Min + Rand = sane-ish Rand). I just don't enjoy reading about her. As another poster had mentioned, I feel like (yes the most subjective of all assessments) Min reads a book, then senses through the warder bond that Rand is back, jumps off the bed and rushes into his arms...repeat...yadda yadda. I suppose this is the same type of sequence that most others find satisfying and endearing. I can understand that too.

 

But Ilyena? Say it ain't so Jo. Say it ain't so.