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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

eslechta

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About eslechta

  • Birthday 01/01/1
  1. I think that the thought behind this is that she ALWAYS insists on being near Rand, even if she is pretty useless with those damned knives of hers (Semirhage, anyone?). The fact that she can't fight won't be an issue for her, it hasn't been yet. Rand probably will die trying to save her from some attack. But I have made clear my dislike for the character, so I while I don't hope any "good" character dies, I wouldn't be heartbroken if she bit the dust.
  2. Me too. Min's actually not even my favorite female character (or even love interest for Rand - I've always been partial to Avi), but I do like her and thought she deserved a defense. I would say that as much fun as some of the other characters are to read, Min would probably be the only girl in the book that I would actually want to date in the real world. I know you didn't ask the age question, I just wanted to fill out that response a little more. I really appreciate that you didn't pull any of the "you're a feminist" "you're too young" "you don't understand love" excuses that others did. I can dislike a character because of reasons other than those cliches. I don't know what else Min should be doing. Something more active, I guess, but don't ask me what. I never said I was being rational, heehee. I also like Avi the best of the three. Can't tell you who my actual favorite character is, it has changed so much over the series, but Nyneave as she is now is probably closest to top of the list. Her ability to love, compassion for the whole world, stubbornness, and blunt way of speaking pretty much whatever is on her mind (a trait I share), are all features I admire. Being a heterosexual woman, I wouldn't want to date Min. I guess the whole thing for me boils down to I wouldn't want to be friends with her either.
  3. Sorry, this is not the case for me. I am not "young", I am in my early 40s. It has nothing to do with "understanding" love, I just find her annoying. And I still don't believe she kept Rand sane. He wasn't sane when he became "dark Rand". I don't believe she slowed down the progression, and she had nothing to do with his reversal. You can say that Tam was only the catalyst, but his discussion did more for rand in 10 minutes than a year of Min following him around like a devoted puppy, "feeling the bond" and sleeping with him. Calling him names isn't challenging him on his decisions, and while she may have been trying to keep him sane, I don't think she did. I don't even think it was possible for her to do so. At least we've talked you down from hate to annoyance. I figured that's about the best we can do. And I can understand thinking she's annoying (although I disagree). I just don't see why anyone would dislike her strong enough to say they hate her. She doesn't really exhibit the traits that people hate about other characters - arrogance, manipulation, mistreatment of friends, know-it-all, etc. She's mostly just a stable, nice person. So given person preferences, I could see people thinking she's boring or annoying. But hate? I'll save the strong opinions for people with the strong negative personality traits that do crappy things to others. And again - she didn't keep him sane, that wasn't possible. But she kept him from becoming an inhuman machine for as long as possible. How much sooner would he have become Dark Rand without that love? He decided not to blow up the world because of love - how can you say his love for Min and her's for him was not a big part of that decision? Who else gave him love and support throughout the later books when everyone was viewing him just as the scary Dragon Reborn or Car'a'carn? His friends were all gone. His other girlfriends had other things to do (this is not a knock on them - just that he needed someone and Min was the one that was able to be there for him). Considering the paranoia and inhuman rock he turned into before almost ending existense how much worse would it have been without someone around that he absolutely trusted and loved and who loved him? How much worse off would you be without anyone around that cared about you? And others have already posted quotes from Rand himself that indicate he believes that Min is helping keep him human. You can still find her annoying, boring, and not that useful but I don't really see how it can be debated that she helped hold off the craziness for as long as possible. And Tam does not deserve much credit for inadvertently setting off Rand's paranoia to the point that Rand almost balefired him. It was this atrocity that opened Rand's eyes to what he had become, but Tam didn't try to do anything - he just happened to mention Cadsuane's name and almost get himself killed. I did mention earlier that hate was a little strong, and annoying and useless are more accurate (I usually find that extreme statements generate more of a response, which it certainly did in this case). I didn't dislike her in the first bunch of books, which I have also mentioned before, It is just in the last few that I find her inherently unlikeable ( this, in fairness, also may have something to do with Kate Redding's voice for her, it is actually a very whiny portrayal. I normally like her voices for people, but min's is like fingernails on a chalkboard.) I also didn't say you said she kept Rand sane (if you follow that), but quite a few people have repeated that mantra in this thread. I agree with your Tam statement, but if we are going to give Min credit for "keeping rand sane and human" then we have to give equal credit to Tam for helping him actually get his humanity back. Also I did want to add onto the whole "how old are you" thing, I am 40, female and married. I think I do understand what love is, and most importantly how important it is not to lose yourself in it. It is important to remain your own person, and not just become a tool for someone else to use, however noble the intentions. Elayne and Avi do have their flaws (especially Elayne), but they both understand that better than Min does. I see your arguments about Min and perhaps you are correct, but I still don't like what the character has become. She is annoying. I respect your right to disagree and I really have enjoyed this discussion.
  4. Sorry, this is not the case for me. I am not "young", I am in my early 40s. It has nothing to do with "understanding" love, I just find her annoying. And I still don't believe she kept Rand sane. He wasn't sane when he became "dark Rand". I don't believe she slowed down the progression, and she had nothing to do with his reversal. You can say that Tam was only the catalyst, but his discussion did more for rand in 10 minutes than a year of Min following him around like a devoted puppy, "feeling the bond" and sleeping with him. Calling him names isn't challenging him on his decisions, and while she may have been trying to keep him sane, I don't think she did. I don't even think it was possible for her to do so.
  5. I think there is something to this. Min is a lousy avatar of 21st Century feminism, therefore for some readers cannot be an admirable character. I never said I thought she wasn't a strong woman. That is NOT why I dislike her. I just don't think she is particularly useful. I don't think she helped keep Rand human, like many others do, I don't think her visions are useful, and I don't think that she has much to add to the story to date. And being 11 books into what was supposed to be a 10 book series, I think it is a little late to think that anything that happens this late in the game will get me to change my mind. I see why some people think she was "trying" to help Rand retain is humanity, but I just don't think that she actually did. Can someone give me an example of how her presence did this? Did her presence help at Natrim's Barrow? Did she ever convince him to be less hard in one of his decisions? (I am sincerely asking this last question, I don't recall any instance where her presence convinced him he was doing the wrong thing by burying his emotions). I guess I want an actual example of how people think she helped him retain his humanity. Like I said earlier, I see Tam as the hero in that, not Min. KoD Ch 27 "A plain Wooden Box" pg 592 (Hardback)5th paragraph, the whole paragraph. This doesn't actually help me much since I listen to the audiobooks. Can you provide context? That was the part where Semirahge just revealed that Rand is insane and hears Lews Therin in his head. Rand then looks around his ally's to see their reaction and he seems to be tettering on going nuts right there and then until he gets to Min and feels all the love she has for him. "If she(Min) turned away from him, he didn't think he would be able to stand it" Paraphrasing that since I don't have the book. She's been the emotional anchor to keeping him sane and human. Thanks for explaining that, I did ask for one example, and you provided it. Saying that, I still don't believe she did that good of a job of keeping him sane or human. I know many, if not most people disagree with me on that, but that's just how I feel. I am interested in the idea that she is actually around for the reader, to allow glimpses into the future, etc. I still don't like her, and it's too bad, I wish I did. I also think that the average housewife works way harder than Min does, especially lately. I find it funny that people think my dislike of her has anything to do with that. I feel she is useless because she really hasn't done anything for the last few books but feel the bond between her and rand (which I am VERY tired of hearing about), and sleep with him.
  6. I think there is something to this. Min is a lousy avatar of 21st Century feminism, therefore for some readers cannot be an admirable character. I never said I thought she wasn't a strong woman. That is NOT why I dislike her. I just don't think she is particularly useful. I don't think she helped keep Rand human, like many others do, I don't think her visions are useful, and I don't think that she has much to add to the story to date. And being 11 books into what was supposed to be a 10 book series, I think it is a little late to think that anything that happens this late in the game will get me to change my mind. I see why some people think she was "trying" to help Rand retain is humanity, but I just don't think that she actually did. Can someone give me an example of how her presence did this? Did her presence help at Natrim's Barrow? Did she ever convince him to be less hard in one of his decisions? (I am sincerely asking this last question, I don't recall any instance where her presence convinced him he was doing the wrong thing by burying his emotions). I guess I want an actual example of how people think she helped him retain his humanity. Like I said earlier, I see Tam as the hero in that, not Min. KoD Ch 27 "A plain Wooden Box" pg 592 (Hardback)5th paragraph, the whole paragraph. This doesn't actually help me much since I listen to the audiobooks. Can you provide context?
  7. I think there is something to this. Min is a lousy avatar of 21st Century feminism, therefore for some readers cannot be an admirable character. I never said I thought she wasn't a strong woman. That is NOT why I dislike her. I just don't think she is particularly useful. I don't think she helped keep Rand human, like many others do, I don't think her visions are useful, and I don't think that she has much to add to the story to date. And being 11 books into what was supposed to be a 10 book series, I think it is a little late to think that anything that happens this late in the game will get me to change my mind. I see why some people think she was "trying" to help Rand retain is humanity, but I just don't think that she actually did. Can someone give me an example of how her presence did this? Did her presence help at Natrim's Barrow? Did she ever convince him to be less hard in one of his decisions? (I am sincerely asking this last question, I don't recall any instance where her presence convinced him he was doing the wrong thing by burying his emotions). I guess I want an actual example of how people think she helped him retain his humanity. Like I said earlier, I see Tam as the hero in that, not Min.
  8. Agreed, and I would also like to add that Min did not restore Rand's humanity, or even save it. Tam is the one that did that. I don't like Cadsuane that much, but she was correct in bringing Tam to Rand. ETA: I don't blame her for Elayne's stupidity, but it does go to my original point of her visions being misinterpreted.
  9. She could have still been a narrator while taking a more active role in what was happening. It wouldn't have to be major "Min grabbed a rag and started helping the women, all the while amazed at the impact Rand's presence was having on these beaten-down, starving people".
  10. Everyone has their own taste in fashion. I don't see how this is a knock on the character. Do women today walk around in dresses all day or do they mostly wear pants? Why? - Because pants are much more comfortable. Do women wear pants that look just like men's pants or do they have different styles that look more feminine? Nothing wrong with wanting to be comfortable (and more practical - at least without regard to the tall heeled boots) and still look like a pretty woman. Here is my biggest disagreement with you. Min's main role (and one that is hugely important to the world) is to keep Rand human. To make him feel loved. To maintain a human connection to the world. To give him someone he can absolutely trust and confide in when he starts to become extremely paranoid. To keep him sane as long as possible. All his other friends and girlfriends have other things going on that prevent them from being able to provide this humanizing emotional support. Without Min, Rand would have been ready to blow up the world long before VoG - and he might have made a different choice without her love. Nothing wrong with getting a little action while performing your world-saving duties. Jury's still out on this one but I think its been setup for Min to find the necessary puzzle pieces to help Rand with defeating the DO. I'll have to re-read and take a look at this. I certainly don't remember feeling like she was slacking off when I read the book. Its kind of normal to be dumbfounded after witnessing your boyfriend perform a miracle. She's certainly not afraid to get her hands dirty - she's worked as a barmaid, in the stables, and I believe around the mines. She certainly didn't do anything so terrible in this scene to earn such scorn. I've seen one other person on the boards that seems to dislike Min as much as you. Most people that don't actually have her as a favorite mostly just have a "meh" feel for her. Hate seems like such a strong emotion for a character that really doesn't do anything wrong throughout the books. She's shown as intelligent, brave, selfless, and loving. You don't see the power grabbing ambition, manipulation, or arrogance that you see from a lot of the other characters. She's maybe a bit more boring than many of the others and gets to do less cool things, but I don't see how she is hate-able. By the way, welcome to the boards. On the fashion: I did say it was minor, and I do agree with most of what you said. I just remember her saying how much she hated looking feminine, then she feminized her "unfeminine" clothes, if you get my point. Speaking as a girl who lives in jeans, I am not knocking the desire to be comfortable, just my perception of her reasons. I could be making this up since I do dislike her so much. On the keeping him human: A lot of people say this, but I just don't see it. I can understand why people think she does, but I just don't think she did play that role all that well. We will have to agree to disagree on that part. On the In awe of his miracle: I am talking about BEFORE the miracle of saving the food. I do think she deserves the scorn, but again we can agree to disagree. That didn't stop her from snapping irritably at the poor merchant who was trying to save lives when he (rightly, in my opinion) berated Rand for abandoning Arad Doman. Loving someone means you recognize their faults as well as their greater attributes, and just blindly defending Rand when he did do the wrong thing doesn't add anything to her character for me. I also haven't seen her do anything to help anyone since she helped Siuan and Leanne escape the white tower. Nyneave is constantly trying to heal the sick, Perrin and Mat are always worried about their people, Elayne is Queen, and Egewene has the White Tower. As arrogant and silly I think Egwene and Elayne are at times, they are looking at the big picture of saving many people and are concerned for the people around then. I just don't think Min cares the tiniest bit about the last battle or anyone but herself and Rand at all. Hate may be too strong, but intense dislike is definitely there. I understand I am in the minority, but there it is. Thanks for the welcome. I have poked my head in on occasion, but rarely post. This is a great place to have discussions like this!
  11. I have disliked Min ever since I started reading this series a few years ago. Every character has irritated me at one time or the other, but usually they then do something totally awesome that allow me to forgive them and realize that while flawed, they have a point and a purpose in the series. Min, however still seems completely useless to me. Visions of the future that always come true are not particularly useful and can be misinterpreted. Without the ability to change the outcome of future events, I don't really see the point of the visions. She had a lot of potential to be an excellent, powerful character. She is strong willed, intelligent, and rational. I get that. I don't get why she purposely wears men-styled clothes, then tries to feminize them. If she wants to look like a girl, than look like a girl, but that's just a minor point. Ever since she left Salidar and rejoined Rand, all she has been is a sex toy and a potential liability to Rand. I was hoping that some of her studies would reveal something important in ToM, and that her purpose would be made more obvious, but I was sorely disappointed in her once again. Maybe there will be some great breakthrough in AMoL, I certainly hope so. What really got me in this book was the return visit to Arad Doman. She goes back with Rand and sees the people respond to his new brilliance and become alive and motivated once again. They started cleaning themselves up, and there is mention of some women getting some water to help people wash the grime and despair off. Instead of actually HELPING the people get organized, maybe help wash some faces, or distribute food or water, perhaps pick up a child or help with some cleaning of the warehouse, she just WATCHES what is going on. Like she is to good to get her hands dirty and actually help these people who have been starving for weeks. That scene is what cemented my intense dislike for the character, which I think has now gone past the point of no return, no matter what happens in the last book. Anyone else still hate Min? Can someone explain to me the purpose of that character, besides being Rand's bedmate?
  12. I don't feel sorry for her. I don't like her. I feel like she is the most useless, boring, wishy washy characters in the novel. Her 'Talent' is not really helpful, and I don't think she helps Rand that much at all. I respect her desire educate herself with reading Herid Fell's books, but otherwise I can't stand her. I much prefer Avhienda.
  13. Thanks to the OP for this thread! I have just listened to all 12 books again (starting back in early november) and have decided that Min really bugs me. Her visions aside, she seems pretty useless to me. At least Avihenda and Elayne are doing what needs to be done for their culture/country, instead of just trailing after Rand, moaning about how she didn't want to fall in love but only did because she had the viewing. And honestly, if I have to read one more time how she can feel how strong Rand's desire for her is through the bond during sex, I swear I will poke one of my eyes out (or stick a spear in my ear if I am listening)! I really don't care about all the sex they are having, sheesh. I like Avihenda a lot more than Min, and I think that the thought Avihenda has in tGS points out their differences the best, something like she loved him NOT because she saw she was destined to in Rhudiean, but because she came to it on her own. Min spent at least 3 books whining about her destiny, and never actually FELL in love with Rand, she just "knew" it was her destiny. And I hate the short coats and high heeled boots affectation. I am not saying Min will not play a role with all of her reading for the Last Battle, I just don't see her usefulness yet, and a lot of pages have been wasted on her and her "passion" with Rand. I also agree with several of the earlier posters with respect to her being a liability, (for example in KoD and tGS, both with Semirhage, and during the kidnapping, when he saw Min was there too that resulted in his daily beatings), and i don't think she had done anything to keep him from getting harder, in fact it is because of her that he is so much harder, especially in how the kidnapping played into that hardening. I will take a LOT of convincing to agree Min has been worth keeping around.
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