The Borderlander army: 13 Aes Sedai

[ranjitb]

What I don't get is that since the borderlander AS were ALSO inside Far Madding, they wouldn't have been able to shield anyone, regardless of whether they were 13 or 13,000.

[Aquarius]

What I don't get is that since the borderlander AS were ALSO inside Far Madding, they wouldn't have been able to shield anyone, regardless of whether they were 13 or 13,000.

No, they wouldn't. That's why the argument is somewhat bogus: They never took the AS into account in their reasonning. DIdn't plan for an escape through the AS. Only the brute force of their army was to be used. if then.

 

plot-wise, if these AS were to take a significant part to the story, that was the perfect moment for them to. Now, with this momment gone, I don't see how could these 13, as a group, could have any influence.

[Dream]

Nah, the entire test was to see whether he had successfully reintegrated or was still Dark Rand. What they knew about him is irrelevant. They were simply given instructions on what to do and what to expect. As others have said, this was not just a test to see if he was the Dragon Reborn. Rand has always been the Dragon Reborn and yet he would have failed the test before his reintegration. As I wrote earlier, this is the Wheel's fail-safe in case Rand does not achieve reintegration. The four rulers are only carrying out the Wheel's will.

 

My argument is that the entire exercise was pointless the way it was carried out. The borderlanders were never in a position to succeed against Dark Rand.

 

The quotes both, David Selig and I, have provided --extracted directly from the book-- are enough to prove what the Bordlerland rulers intended: trying to obtain proof that Rand al'Thor was the Dragon Reborn. Sometimes, the simplest explanation is all there is to it.

 

Three of the four rulers may have gone along to see if Rand was the true Dragon Reborn. But the most important one, the one entrusted with the test, did know its true purpose (see the quote others have provided). But I won't argue this any further as this is really irrelevant to my point.

 

Regardless of what the rulers thought the test is for, we know the true purpose of the test. The undeniable fact is the test specifically verifies successful reintegration. Whether the rulers know this is irrelevant. The purpose of the test does not change and the instructions are clear. If Rand passes, good for him. If Rand fails, kill him, Dragon Reborn or not.

 

Which brings us to my point. The borderlanders were never in a position to succeed against Dark Rand, making the test pointless. Dark Rand was a split second away from annihilating them. Post-VoG Rand doesn't need the test. If Rand failed reintegration, then he would have either: a) broken the Wheel, b) killed himself/gone completely insane, or c) joined the Dark Side. In none of those scenarios would Super Dark Rand have wandered into Far Madding to be tested.

 

 

 

What I don't get is that since the borderlander AS were ALSO inside Far Madding, they wouldn't have been able to shield anyone, regardless of whether they were 13 or 13,000.

No, they wouldn't. That's why the argument is somewhat bogus: They never took the AS into account in their reasonning. DIdn't plan for an escape through the AS. Only the brute force of their army was to be used. if then.

 

plot-wise, if these AS were to take a significant part to the story, that was the perfect moment for them to. Now, with this momment gone, I don't see how could these 13, as a group, could have any influence.

 

Yeah, the AS didn't help very much and only served to make Rand wary of them.

 

Two points though:

1. The borderlanders initially intended to confront Rand in Caemlyn. The AS would have been useful then. I imagine they decided to change venue after they realised Rand had an even bigger army than them (and more channelers to boot).

2. It might have helped to keep Rand away from them and the test, which he most certainly would have failed. How's that for convoluted reasoning.

[Darth Krewl]

Three of the four rulers may have gone along to see if Rand was the true Dragon Reborn. But the most important one, the one entrusted with the test, did know its true purpose (see the quote others have provided). But I won't argue this any further as this is really irrelevant to my point.

 

Regardless of what the rulers thought the test is for, we know the true purpose of the test. The undeniable fact is the test specifically verifies successful reintegration. Whether the rulers know this is irrelevant. The purpose of the test does not change and the instructions are clear. If Rand passes, good for him. If Rand fails, kill him, Dragon Reborn or not.

 

Which brings us to my point. The borderlanders were never in a position to succeed against Dark Rand, making the test pointless. Dark Rand was a split second away from annihilating them. Post-VoG Rand doesn't need the test. If Rand failed reintegration, then he would have either: a) broken the Wheel, b) killed himself/gone completely insane, or c) joined the Dark Side. In none of those scenarios would Super Dark Rand have wandered into Far Madding to be tested.

 

Oh, so you're making your point from a reader's outside PoV and not from an in-universe perspective? Well, why didn't you say so in the first place? lol

 

From that PoV, to me, the whole thing was completely stupid and senseless, obviously. But, then again, many other characters have done worse things that have made me wanna pull my hair out throughout this series, for that matter lol...I was trying to make sense of things from the Borderland rulers PoV (to answer the thread's original question, actually), again, assuming that they had no way of knowing about Rand's deeds in full detail.

 

As for Paitar's stance concerning Rand's legitimacy, I've already explained my point about 3/4 of the Borderland rulers having doubts about Rand on post #22 above. If you're interested, please go ahead and read it. Because not to be rude, but I obviously won't keep repeating myself, when I've already made my point. Especially, when I stand by what I said and I still do.

[Val Mickey]

Tenobia and co. refer to Rand as the Dragon Reborn when they meet up with Elayne. It is quite hard at this point not to believe that Rand is the DR (from an insider's PoV.) The number of prophecies that he's fulfilled within the Karaethon cycle, Elaida's proclamation, the finding of the Horn of Valere, Hurin's testimony, Bashere's allegiance, the miasma... In fact, they'll have to be remarkably stubborn not to believe that he is the DR. Even the bloody Seanchan do, and they believe they are the saviors of the world.

 

But then Borderlanders are... Borderlanders.

[Byzantine279]

The aes sedai were likely meant as a mis-direct in order to make people think they were black and that something was going to happen to Rand.

[Darth Krewl]

Tenobia and co. refer to Rand as the Dragon Reborn when they meet up with Elayne. It is quite hard at this point not to believe that Rand is the DR (from an insider's PoV.) The number of prophecies that he's fulfilled within the Karaethon cycle, Elaida's proclamation, the finding of the Horn of Valere, Hurin's testimony, Bashere's allegiance, the miasma... In fact, they'll have to be remarkably stubborn not to believe that he is the DR. Even the bloody Seanchan do, and they believe they are the saviors of the world.

 

But then Borderlanders are... Borderlanders.

 

From an insider's PoV? Sure. I agree with everything you've said. But Borderlanders are not insiders. I'm sure they all must have heard rumor and hearsay of Rand's deeds (prophecies fulfilled) but again, the way communication tends to be all but missing in the Randland (and how infuriatingly stubborn everyone happens to be, even when told things straight to their faces), I don't see them knowing as much as insiders.

 

Remember, the Seanchan didn't even believe Trollocs to be real, till that woman general of theirs ran into a Fistful of them in TGS. So IMO, it's easy to imply that the Borderland rules were not 100% aware of Rand's exploits and that they needed some kind of confirmation. Especially, since they had a rather obscure and minor Prophecy of their own that they needed to see fulfilled.

 

Stupid? Sure. Stubborn? Clearly. Impractical? Absolutely. Again, communication is all but missing throughout this series:

 

Elayne didn't know that Mat and Perrin were Ta'veren, also part of the Prophecies and that they were fulfilling them as much as Rand...and the girl has been around them far, far more than the Borderland rulers had ever been around Rand!

 

Egwene still thinks that she has to get Rand under some kind of control, even after having lectured Elaida on how the Dragon had to be free to fulfill all the Prophecies...and she still opposes him, even after witnessing first-hand Rand's effect on those around him.

 

Cadsuane still calls him a "child", even after personally witnessing some of Rand's most stunning feats and she still thinks she knows better than him, that she has to guide him into the Last Battle. And that's when the stupid hag doesn't even know the proper name (and arguably, the proper functioning at 100%) of all those little angreal devices she's been wearing on her head. She should know by now that Rand's experience and knowledge in general are clearly light years ahead of anything she might have learned in her time.

 

After reading all of the above in the books, I'd say Randlanders in general --and not only Borderlanders-- are...Randlanders ;-)

 

*Edit for spelling corrections.

[bysomy]

No, they wouldn't. That's why the argument is somewhat bogus: They never took the AS into account in their reasonning. DIdn't plan for an escape through the AS. Only the brute force of their army was to be used. if then.

 

plot-wise, if these AS were to take a significant part to the story, that was the perfect moment for them to. Now, with this momment gone, I don't see how could these 13, as a group, could have any influence.

This is what doesnt make sense to me; Cadsuane presumably needed a well for a gateway. But here http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Far_Madding it says:

The Guardian is an immense ter'angreal in the Hall of the Counsels. Made of three discs, it creates an area around the city in which channelers are cut off from the True Source. However, a chaneller with a specialised ter'angreal called a well may capture a small amount of the One Power and then use the contents of the well inside the city. Men are cut off about a mile around the city and women at the city limits.

Rand was outside the city walls ,as was Cadsuane, so she shouldn't have been cut off form the sourse. It says in ToM pg 752

Min looked up, and could faintly make out people lining the walls of Far Madding to watch.

[rand4747]

No, they wouldn't. That's why the argument is somewhat bogus: They never took the AS into account in their reasonning. DIdn't plan for an escape through the AS. Only the brute force of their army was to be used. if then.

 

plot-wise, if these AS were to take a significant part to the story, that was the perfect moment for them to. Now, with this momment gone, I don't see how could these 13, as a group, could have any influence.

This is what doesnt make sense to me; Cadsuane presumably needed a well for a gateway. But here http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Far_Madding it says:

The Guardian is an immense ter'angreal in the Hall of the Counsels. Made of three discs, it creates an area around the city in which channelers are cut off from the True Source. However, a chaneller with a specialised ter'angreal called a well may capture a small amount of the One Power and then use the contents of the well inside the city. Men are cut off about a mile around the city and women at the city limits.

Rand was outside the city walls ,as was Cadsuane, so she shouldn't have been cut off form the sourse. It says in ToM pg 752

Min looked up, and could faintly make out people lining the walls of Far Madding to watch.

 

 

I would guess they were close enough to be within the female one aswell. Fairly close to the gates/shore.

[Grandis]

No, they wouldn't. That's why the argument is somewhat bogus: They never took the AS into account in their reasonning. DIdn't plan for an escape through the AS. Only the brute force of their army was to be used. if then.

 

plot-wise, if these AS were to take a significant part to the story, that was the perfect moment for them to. Now, with this momment gone, I don't see how could these 13, as a group, could have any influence.

This is what doesnt make sense to me; Cadsuane presumably needed a well for a gateway. But here http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Far_Madding it says:

The Guardian is an immense ter'angreal in the Hall of the Counsels. Made of three discs, it creates an area around the city in which channelers are cut off from the True Source. However, a chaneller with a specialised ter'angreal called a well may capture a small amount of the One Power and then use the contents of the well inside the city. Men are cut off about a mile around the city and women at the city limits.

Rand was outside the city walls ,as was Cadsuane, so she shouldn't have been cut off form the sourse. It says in ToM pg 752

Min looked up, and could faintly make out people lining the walls of Far Madding to watch.

 

You shouldn't put so much faith in a wiki. From WH, chapter 23

"The larger affects men, but we will enter the smaller before we reach the bridge."

and later

The road turned onto a spit of land jutting half a mile or more into the lake, and abruptly the Source vanished.

[ranjitb]

They were close enough for the women to be shielded - Caddyshack specifically says "Thar gateway will be ready but so small that we must crawl through", implying that she was relying on her well for Saidar. Under normal circumstances a woman of her strength would easily open a gateway wide enough for the entire Rand party to ride through comfortably.

 

Regardless of what the rulers intended with their AS, Caddyshack specifically feels a spark of pride that her protege Rand can face down 13 AS without flinching - whats the point of this comment in the book ? That's what bugged me. Inside FM those 13 AS are nothing more than spoiled and stuck up women.

[mbuehner]

Perhaps the pattern needed to get the Borderlanders out of the Borderlands and this was the method.

[babuada]

They were close enough for the women to be shielded - Caddyshack specifically says "Thar gateway will be ready but so small that we must crawl through", implying that she was relying on her well for Saidar. Under normal circumstances a woman of her strength would easily open a gateway wide enough for the entire Rand party to ride through comfortably.

 

Regardless of what the rulers intended with their AS, Caddyshack specifically feels a spark of pride that her protege Rand can face down 13 AS without flinching - whats the point of this comment in the book ? That's what bugged me. Inside FM those 13 AS are nothing more than spoiled and stuck up women.

Can I get the quote? I thought the pride was about facing the Borderlander Monarchs with strength.

[blazetheearth]

It made Cadusane's shoulders itch, being surrounded like this, but the fool boy - he would always be a fool boy, no matter how old he was - looked perfectly at peace.

Thirteen Aes Sedai waited outside the tent, which wasn't large enough for them all. Thirteen. That hadn't made al'Thor blink. What man who could channel would sit amid thirteen Aes Sedai and not sweat?

He's changed, Cadsuane told herself. You're just going to have to accept that. Not that he didn't need her anymore. Men like him grew overly confident. A few little successes, and he'd trip over his own feet and land in some predicament.

But ... well, she was proud of him. Grudgingly proud. A little.

 

I can see how the paragraph, taken as a whole, can be taken to imply that she was proud of him not being worried over the AS, or being proud of the way he had handled the BL rulers. Either could apply, but I read it in still a third way. To me, it seems she is proud over his growth and how he has changed. The fact that he has finally grown up and let go of his anger.

[ranjitb]

Ishadar - I agree with you that the pride and so forth should be applied to Rand's growth and willingness to listen and work with others.

Its just the incongruity of that one single line which is completely out of place. We don't see it from the point of view of perhaps an uneducated farmer who may or may not know the workings of Far Madding.

We see it in Cadsuane's internal monologue - she KNOWS she is the only one at the entire party who can channel (plus whatever the Fool Boy meant when he said the Guardian only blocks the One Power) - after all it was an eventuality that was foreseen and specifically planned for, WHY is she freaking out about the 13 AS.

[Val Mickey]

I would suggest that there is still the possibility that the Borderlanders 'might' whack Rand (and his channelers) on the head, move out of the saidin stedding, get 6 AS to shield him, and the other 7 to shield the rest, and take him to wherever they want. Borderlanders are.... Borderlanders, after all. He cannot escape from them, should they decide to take him.

 

I'm not too sure about who was in Rand's company. Caddy, Min, the Maidens, I'm sure of, but was Narishma there? Ah, well. My point is that the Borderlanders could still do something to Rand, yet he appears trusting.

 

Also, Caddy's view of male channelers are still informed by her hunting days. 13 AS = freak out for any male channeler. Anywhere.

 

Hope that helps.

[ranjitb]

I disagree that such a possibility exists - for both an in-book and out-book reasons.

 

In-book : It has now been explained what the borderland army was doing south and why they were searching for him. Rand satisfied their prophecy/foretelling and has obtained their oaths. None of the BL monarchs are darkfriends, or Rand would have seen it. He has TOLD Tenobia of the disaster he narrowly averted at Maradon, and the probable fate of the other capitals. Therefore, they will hold to their oaths of fealty and follow him to FoM.

 

Out-book : Sanderson really gets the concept that unless the "final" book is to be endlessly split into three volumes, he needs to start wrapping storylines up and not creating random new ones. There is still enough shit to deal with, that a random "Oh Noes Rand is kidnapped by the borderlanders, we have to go save him !" plotline just .... well, heaven help us if we have to go through that again.

[Kaznen]

As far as the information they had on Rand.

 

1st-Rand showed them Callendor, but what good would that of done? The only people who had seen it for the last thousand years in Randland where the Tairen High Lords. Before the Aiel attacked the Stone the Heart was sealed up against everyone who wasn't a high lord. Rand could have just made a glass or crystal sword and have conquered Tear through conventional means. After 3000+ years the Stone had to fall sometime. Doesn't mean he could touch "The Sword that cannot be Touched."

 

2nd-Rolain Darksbane had conquered half of Randland and put the stone under heavy siege before he was defeated by Atur Hawkwing. The "Dragon Empire" has five countries (Mayene, Tear, Illian, Gheledean, and Arad Doman) and that is maybe a 1/4th of Randland. Going back to the 1st point they could have thought he was another Rolain Darksbane. (Whose banner was the Ancient AS symbol on a field of blue BTW. Rand's is on a field of red.)

 

3rd-They may have had Hurin's testimony about Falme but that doesn't prove much. The Horn has no mention in the Prophecies of the Dragon except it needs to be blown before TG. Hurin could have been "misremembering" when the heroes called Rand LTT. And the prophecies fulfilled where real obscure ones that even AS didn't have a clue what they meant.

 

4th-Rand's followers don't mean much, even the AS. I'm sure they have heard the "Logain was set up by AS" story by now. And they could have thought Caudy was one of the AS setting up Rand as a False Dragon. Taim would have gone to Rand for protection and Davram could have "fell" for Rand's "tricks." Darksbane had high ranking nobles following him as well.

 

They had no way of sorting the truth from the lies when they met Rand. The Queen in the PoV in PoD wasn't sure he was the Dragon Reborn when they set off on their quest.

[blazetheearth]

I would suggest that there is still the possibility that the Borderlanders 'might' whack Rand (and his channelers) on the head, move out of the saidin stedding, get 6 AS to shield him, and the other 7 to shield the rest, and take him to wherever they want. Borderlanders are.... Borderlanders, after all. He cannot escape from them, should they decide to take him.

 

I'm not too sure about who was in Rand's company. Caddy, Min, the Maidens, I'm sure of, but was Narishma there? Ah, well. My point is that the Borderlanders could still do something to Rand, yet he appears trusting.

 

Also, Caddy's view of male channelers are still informed by her hunting days. 13 AS = freak out for any male channeler. Anywhere.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Rand's party consisted of Min, Cads, Narishima, and Merise. His escort of Maidens is indeterminate in number, it is simply referred to as "a small cluster" but when he went back to Tear originally in this book, the had been something about him keeping 20 Maidens with him always to make up for abandoning them, but IIRC correctly he only took 2 to Maradon, so basically I have no idea how many there are with him in Far Madding, but "a small cluster" would probably not kill more than 5 or 10 times their number of Borderlanders if it had come down to a fight, and since the BL had over 200,000 troops camped on the shore of the lake, I doubt that the Maidens would have made much impression on them. And he could have escaped them any time he wanted if they had tried to take him. Ramember the Far Madding Guardian stops the OP only. Rand was quietly emphatic about that. He was never in any danger, but the BL certainly were had they tried anything. I'm sure it would have been a great shock for them to see a wrist-thick bar of liquid white fire shoot from his hand cutting a swath through the entire army in a second.

[Val Mickey]

I disagree that such a possibility exists - for both an in-book and out-book reasons.

 

I meant that to be the reason why Caddy thought Rand was great for not flinching when 13AS were standing close by, not that it still exists. I forgot to mention that. Oops?!

 

They may have had Hurin's testimony about Falme but that doesn't prove much.

 

True, but Hurin would also say that al'Lan Mandragoran, Uno, Masema, Moirane Sedai and Verin Sedai confirmed that he was the DR. Since the king believes that AS don't lie...

 

And since the HoV is found, TG is looming. If TG is looming, there should be a true DR. Since there are no other claimants...

 

And even if Callandor can be denied, how can the fall of the Stone even be suspect?

 

Also try to explain why they managed to 'disregard' Elaida's proclamation that Rand is the DR.

 

Kudos for the superior effort K, but find something against the above points too.

[moratcorlm]

If they're going to disregard Hurin's claims about Falme, I see no reason why they wouldn't do the same for his claims about what Lan and the Aes Sedai said.

 

But the evidence is that they did listen, especially considering that reports would long since have started filtering in from pigeons, and news from human messengers probably could have beat Hurin's time by taking the roads from Arad Doman to Shienar (it was over 100 days between Hurin's departure from Tar Valon and reports from the eyes-and-ears, presumably by pigeon, of unrest in Shienar; over 250 since the battle at Falme; over 400 since the first reports of the Forerunners reached Fal Dara in the beginning of TGH).